ICC sham case:Naive and politically motivated Wafula & Koros fell to PNU tricks

[RV Pundit]

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3dnsTIXvxMA#t=0

[veritas]

This is plucked out of context though.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Context aside, it's still not clear to me that there is anything wrong with facilitating witnesses and their testimonies per se. 

Criminals are fixed by evidence all the time.  If it's imperfect or determined to be unreliable, the judges will let them go.

If Moses Kuria did that, for political reasons, that's not a morally good thing.  It still remains debatable if it's illegal.  Unless it can be shown that the witnesses lied and were told to lie by Kuria.

[MOON Ki]

We'll skip the bit about how the title of the video, which is what has excited many, doesn't actually match its contents.

Context aside, it's still not clear to me that there is anything wrong with facilitating witnesses and their testimonies per se. 

There is nothing wrong with it.   It is something that happens in courts all over the world, all of the time.   

In the case of the ICC, the nature of the crimes the court deals with, as well as the circumstances that are usually involved, mean that the OTP investigators cannot, in general, directly get to witnesses.   (Think of the PEV and imagine some guy from Europe directly getting to witnesses in Eldoret or somehow finding out, on his own, who was involved in planning meetings.)

It is for that reason many witnesses at the ICC come through "intermediaries", and that has been so right from the beginning.   

The following are extracts from a document that explains the above:

Intermediaries perform a range of functions which are necessary for the ICC to do its work effectively. This may include, for example, assisting prosecution or defense investigators in identifying evidentiary leads and helping to contact potential witnesses.

The court several document that are very helpful in such matters:   "Guidelines Governing the Relations between the Court and Intermediaries",  "Code of conduct for intermediaries",  and others can be found here:
http://www.icc-cpi.int/en_menus/icc/legal%20texts%20and%20tools/strategies-and-guidelines/Pages/default.aspx

If Moses Kuria did that, for political reasons, that's not a morally good thing.  It still remains debatable if it's illegal.  Unless it can be shown that the witnesses lied and were told to lie by Kuria.

Provided he did not tell the witnesses to lie or engage in other funny business, he is no different from any other intermediary and has not done anything illegal.

[yulemsee]

Context aside, it's still not clear to me that there is anything wrong with facilitating witnesses and their testimonies per se. 

Criminals are fixed by evidence all the time.  If it's imperfect or determined to be unreliable, the judges will let them go.

If Moses Kuria did that, for political reasons, that's not a morally good thing.  It still remains debatable if it's illegal.  Unless it can be shown that the witnesses lied and were told to lie by Kuria.

I guess your other handle is audacity.
This is the one thing no one is talking about,  are those witnesses saying the truth or lying and that is what will get Ruto to walk or get detained. And Ruto should know that no president whether uhuru or Raila will risk  Kenya becoming a pariah state by protecting him if he is found guilty

[veritas]

Context aside, it's still not clear to me that there is anything wrong with facilitating witnesses and their testimonies per se. 

Criminals are fixed by evidence all the time.  If it's imperfect or determined to be unreliable, the judges will let them go.

If Moses Kuria did that, for political reasons, that's not a morally good thing.  It still remains debatable if it's illegal.  Unless it can be shown that the witnesses lied and were told to lie by Kuria.

It was more than fixed. They killed witnesses as well as coached them. Awhile back TRV went on and on about witness tampering and the ICC paid him a vist. Well, TRV sent me those hacked emails before the ICC confiscated his computers. It was more than coaching.

If the ICC is reading this. I am not the only one with a copy of hacked emails and hacked documents during the PEV and aftermath. I'm not giving you sh!t either. A couple documents were given and without protection they were killed or imprisoned.

[RV Pundit]

Kuria and others who induced witnesses to lie (if it went beyond facilitation) could be guilty of perjury crimes (here in Kenya) considering Waki and Krigler were commission of inquires. They are not guilty of any ICC crimes.

Now for ICC's prosecutor; this is going to be yet another setback; these witnesses had already recanted and testified they initially lying; their testimony is already doubtful; but OTP contend they were intimidated and bribed.The judges are convinced.

Now if Moses Kuria and PNU guys together with ICC intermediaries like Ken Wafula can come out and testify; that is the very end of Bensauda game.

The limping cases are going to end badly for Bensauda. What Bensauda need to do is to suspend proceedings and investigates their witnesses, intermediaries and this PNU angle. That will save them the embarrassment and they won't look like damned idiots when kenyan political and civil servants turned 360 on them.

[MOON Ki]

Now if Moses Kuria and PNU guys together with ICC intermediaries like Ken Wafula can come out and testify; that is the very end of Bensauda game.

The Defense will soon be filing a "No Case To Answer Motion".     That would be a good place to have Kuria and the "PNU guys" insert their claims.   Have they given their "proof" to the Defense, or are they just making noise in the media?

What Bensauda need to do is to suspend proceedings and investigates their witnesses, intermediaries and this PNU angle.

(1) The OTP has already closed its case, and it is now the turn of the Defense.  What proceedings are Bensouda supposed to suspend?   Is she supposed to demand that the Defense not present its case?   Is the Defense demanding any suspension?

(2) Whether it is the OTP, Defense, of Judges, are they supposed to act on the basis of unverified claims made in the media?   

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Now if Moses Kuria and PNU guys together with ICC intermediaries like Ken Wafula can come out and testify; that is the very end of Bensauda game.

The Defense will soon be filing a "No Case To Answer Motion".     That would be a good place to have Kuria and the "PNU guys" insert their claims.   Have they given their "proof" to the Defense, or are they just making noise in the media?

What Bensauda need to do is to suspend proceedings and investigates their witnesses, intermediaries and this PNU angle.

(1) The OTP has already closed its case, and it is now the turn of the Defense.  What proceedings are Bensouda supposed to suspend?   Is she supposed to demand that the Defense not present its case?   Is the Defense demanding any suspension?

(2) Whether it is the OTP, Defense, of Judges, are they supposed to act on the basis of unverified claims made in the media?   

If Kuria testifies that he manufactured witnesses, doesn't he risk exposing himself to administration of justice charges?

[MOON Ki]

If Kuria testifies that he manufactured witnesses, doesn't he risk exposing himself to administration of justice charges?

If he testifies that he was involved in concocting evidence or sending false witnesses forward, then that would be the case.   But why can he not supply all that information to the Defense without it having to be in the form of sworn testimony?  (Last Friday there was a status conference in the case.   No mention by either Defense team about this Kuria fixing stuff that is raging in Kenya.)

Another thing is that if you take a careful look, Kuria does not appear to be saying anything of the sort.   His statements are generally limited to "procuring", and people have jumped to excited conclusions as to what that word means in this context.     There is nothing illegal with getting witnesses for either side of the case, even if it is done with malicious intent; what matters is whether those witnesses are truthful.   As far as I can tell, Kuria is stirring the pot and working up emotions, but  he has not really given any concrete information on anything and seems  careful to stay away from anything that would actually get him into trouble.  Nevertheless, some people find it convenient to accept, on no real basis, that he is telling the truth.

[RV Pundit]

You're being either dishonest or desperate. The defense cannot insert Kuria or PNU claims until they have a case to answer.It similar to nonsense I read someone saying Ruto should prove his innocence!. That is reversed logic. Bensauda has to first prove their guilt..and so far he has done half job..and the no case motion has 50% (and maybe 100% if Appeal  chambersreject recanted evidence) chance of succeeding..which just illustrate how badly this cases have been handled.

Bensauda himself contend without key 5 witnesses that recanted; his case is limping. The rest of the witnesses are witnesses of stuff nobody is disputing (other various elements of Crimes Against Humanity that doesn't touch on Ruto-Sang personal liability)...for instance everybody agrees there were widespread violences that led to death, rape and displacement of many folks in RV.

I think Bensauda duty is to do his job. His job include investigating every angle of the case. At every stage. There is nothing like "closed or finished" case. He just doesn't have to "win" at all cost. Bensauda has been told severally that witnesses he was relying on were dodgy characters....long before they recanted!

Anyway the first hurdle is for Bensauda to pass the No case to Answer after the appeal chambers has dealt with Rule 69 and related issues. Then it upon Ruto and Sang to demolish whatever would be left. What is very clear to me..is that Bensauda is going to come out 6-NIL. He is already 4-Nil in the Kenya case.

And right now DPP Tobiko need to also see if Moses Kuria and others should be in prison (or in some plea bargain) for messing up with Waki and Kriegler commission..which were commission formed under commission act of kenya...quasi judicial proceedings.
 

The Defense will soon be filing a "No Case To Answer Motion".     That would be a good place to have Kuria and the "PNU guys" insert their claims.   Have they given their "proof" to the Defense, or are they just making noise in the media?
(1) The OTP has already closed its case, and it is now the turn of the Defense.  What proceedings are Bensouda supposed to suspend?   Is she supposed to demand that the Defense not present its case?   Is the Defense demanding any suspension?

(2) Whether it is the OTP, Defense, of Judges, are they supposed to act on the basis of unverified claims made in the media?