Bella, MOON KI, Legal Minds

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

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This Perugia murder case, now mostly known as the Amanda Knox saga has been ongoing since 2007.  I don't know how much of it you guys have followed or even if you are familiar with it at all.  If you are/get familiar I would be interested to hear your views.

In a nutshell, an American girl, Amanda Knox, from Seattle, and a British girl, Meredith Kercher, meet in Perugia and end up sharing a house.  A few weeks later, the British girl is found dead in her locked bedroom, her throat slit, her panties pulled down, bra pulled up.

Amanda Knox, her Italian boyfriend and a Rudy Guede, a young black man in Perugia, originally from Ivory Coast, are charged with her murder.  Guede opts for fast track and goes to jail.  The other two eventually also go to jail.  Through numerous appeals, they are eventually acquitted.

It is a fascinating case to say the least.  With the very distinct possibility that the innocent party in the whole case, was the one that went on to serve time and bear the blame for the whole crime.  A young black man, at the wrong place, at the wrong time.

I have shared some links of interest.  They may lean one way or another.  But the first two make particular effort to be as faithful to the proceedings as possible, sharing original sources for the points they make. 

The last one is more or less an extension of what you would see in US media and to a lesser but still significant extent, in the UK media.  Basically PR for Amanda Knox with little regard for the facts of the case.  A reporting of the case that bears little resemblance to what has actually taken place in Perugia as well as Italian courts.

If one had little faith in current mass media, this case will do little to improve the image of the same.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Main_Page

http://truejustice.org/

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/

The first link gives the best summary of the case.  Once you get that, you can more confidently look at the other sites and the material(which is essentially the same but with diametrically different conclusions in the last link).  The Italian legal system also comes across as very unique in comparison to common law jurisdictions.

[MOON Ki]

I followed the story for some time and then gave up when it turned into a sort of media circus and the "trials" seemed to be endless.   

Anyways ... I'm not sure about

With the very distinct possibility that the innocent party in the whole case, was the one that went on to serve time and bear the blame for the whole crime.  A young black man, at the wrong place, at the wrong time.

The guy seemed to have some peculiar stories.    I also never understood his opting for "fast track"; he probably should have latched onto the other two.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

I followed the story for some time and then gave up when it turned into a sort of media circus and the "trials" seemed to be endless.   

Anyways ... I'm not sure about

With the very distinct possibility that the innocent party in the whole case, was the one that went on to serve time and bear the blame for the whole crime.  A young black man, at the wrong place, at the wrong time.

The guy seemed to have some peculiar stories.    I also never understood his opting for "fast track"; he probably should have latched onto the other two.

Guede's story is indeed peculiar.  His story is made more peculiar because he leaves his poop in the other bathroom.  Interestingly, this fact is one of the factors that convinced me he was telling the truth.  He heard the loud scream and jumped out of the bathroom, with barely enough time to pull his pants up or flush the toilet.

I think the man is behind bars because the only story that the court could accept was one consistent with his guilt.  A young black man, looking to get laid, finds himself at the scene of a very serious crime.  This predicament downs on him, correctly as it turns out, he panics, and flees to Germany.  He was like early 20s late teens at the time.  Nobody wants to believe that the victim was making out with a black dude; that is apparently adding insult to injury for the victim's family and the good people of Perugia.

That is very incriminating. Yet, apart from fleeing, he has never said anything that has been confirmed to be a lie.  Everything he says, is consistent with the forensic evidence.  And independent confirmation from the victim's room mates. 

From the doorbell, his bloody footprints, DNA on the victim, no evidence consistent with rape or forced entry.  His own admission is that he was indeed there, and they were making out with Meredith at some point before he had the urge to use to the bathroom. 

While in the bathroom, he hears the door bell and Meredith answers the door.  He wasn't sure who it was.  But he thought it sounded like Amanda.  So why would Amanda, who lives there, have to ring the door-bell?  It turns out that she had to because the state of the door meant it had to be locked with a key left inside when any of the room mates were at home.  Guede had no way of knowing this.

After some loud discussion, he hears a loud scream over his ipod.  He rushes out of the toilet to find Meredith had been stabbed in the neck.  He spends the rest of his time there trying to staunch her blood with towels.  Basically trying to save her life.  In the process he leaves the "incriminating" evidence.

The reason I find his involvement unlikely, especially in a threesome attack.  He was not serious friends with Amanda Knox.  He did not know her boyfriend at all.  There wasn't that level of familiarity for him to commit that type of crime with them and vice versa.  Guede was a player, not a fetishist.  That has been one of the biggest weaknesses with the prosecution's theories.

The only way he could be involved was if he did it alone.  But it would mean that he killed her, and then staged a scene to make it look like a break-in, took nothing of value, moved her body to make it look like a rape, then left DNA, bloody fingerprints and footprints on his way out.  The key question is who has to gain from diverting attention to an outsider?  It does not seem like Guede, the outsider in this whole saga.

[MOON Ki]

The "scenario" you have posted above is certainly plausible, but there seems to be a whole lot of other stuff.

The first link you posted above has this as part of its "mission statement":

It is our sincere and confident position that Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito, and Rudy Guede all participated in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

That was my view too when (last year) I looked at some of the details, such as those presented here:

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Evidence_List

[veritas]

Rudy did it. Blood speaks.

The Italian justice system is corrupt and implicated others like the American for political reasons. It's bad tourism if the Italian alone was considered guilty. Italy already has bad rep for being a sleezy,  mafia place. Rome is disgusting.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

The "scenario" you have posted above is certainly plausible, but there seems to be a whole lot of other stuff.

The first link you posted above has this as part of its "mission statement":

It is our sincere and confident position that Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito, and Rudy Guede all participated in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

That was my view too when (last year) I looked at some of the details, such as those presented here:

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Evidence_List

A lot of that is the prosecution case.  They never once entertained the possibility that Guede was just a witness.  The result is they end up finessing Guede into the murder plot, weakening their own case in the process. 

His story does not have red flags.  He fled because he panicked.  He did not see the need to stay behind with the other two and cleanup the evidence for instance.  That is an act of innocence; his apparent lack of concern for the implication or even covering his tracks.  Until he realizes a little late, panics, and flees, leaving his poop and bloody shoe prints.

His presence there is explicable by his narrative.  His DNA is found on the toilet paper, but no trace of blood in the bathroom where he poops.  Then his DNA, bloody prints and all are found on Meredith, and in the hallway, leading straight to the exit.  And nowhere else.  To me that seems to confirm that at that point Guede leaves in some sort of haste.  If he was part of the plan, why would he leave them behind to clean up and probably set him up?

Interestingly, the judicial report from the latest ruling is out(still in Italian).  Amanda and her boyfriend were of course acquitted.  Yet, snippets of the translated report explaining the ruling appear to suggest that she was definitely in that house, and even washed the victim's blood off her hands; in the likely attempt to cover up, for herself or someone else.  Yet it found no reason(no evidence it says) to reverse the acquittal.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

According to Guede, when he comes out of the bathroom, he runs into Rafaele, Amanda's boyfriend, who he has never met.  The guy has a knife.  They engage in a mini-scuffle on the porch.  Rafaele leaves, telling someone out of sight that it's a black guy and he'll be found culpable.

This is important.  Because later on Amanda falsely accuses her black boss of the crime.  He had called her that night, canceling her shift because business was low.  She mistakenly assumes he was that black guy that Rafaele talks about.  She did not see or know that it was Guede because he was not part of the plot.

[veritas]

He killed her. No doubt about it. He should've gotten life. He's the type of individual who'd do it again when released.

and in the hallway leading out the front door. As mentioned above, . Most importantly, .

Guede also had a history of break-ins similar to that seen at the cottage. One week prior to the murder, Guede was caught breaking into a nursery school by the school's owner, Maria Del Prato, when she arrived unexpectedly during off hours with two repairmen. Del Prato along with the repairmen kept Guede at the nursery and called the police.

When police searched Guede's backpack they found a laptop and cell phone that had recently been stolen from a Perugian law office. The break-in at the law office was very similar to the break-in at the cottage as Guede entered through an elevated window broken with a rock in both occasions. In the nursery school break-in, Guede was found in the possession of a large knife

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/Rudy.html

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

He killed her. No doubt about it. He should've gotten life. He's the type of individual who'd do it again when released.

and in the hallway leading out the front door. As mentioned above, . Most importantly, .

Guede also had a history of break-ins similar to that seen at the cottage. One week prior to the murder, Guede was caught breaking into a nursery school by the school's owner, Maria Del Prato, when she arrived unexpectedly during off hours with two repairmen. Del Prato along with the repairmen kept Guede at the nursery and called the police.

When police searched Guede's backpack they found a laptop and cell phone that had recently been stolen from a Perugian law office. The break-in at the law office was very similar to the break-in at the cottage as Guede entered through an elevated window broken with a rock in both occasions. In the nursery school break-in, Guede was found in the possession of a large knife

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/Rudy.html

veritas,

The story that he broke into a nursery and stole a laptop.  Pure hogwash.  It is a favorite of Amanda Knox PR.  It is repeated without any supporting documentation; one of the reasons you'll be forced to look outside Knox's PR websites if you have any interest in getting at the underlying truth of the case. 

In any case, the break-in at the cottage was staged.  That has been confirmed in every court and official investigation documents.  If Rudy Guede broke into the cottage, why would he stage it? 

His DNA was on the victim and in the victim.  They were making out.  Later, he tried to staunch her blood.  It is consistent.  In the toilet his DNA was on the toilet paper.  There was none in the "break-in" room. 

Contrast with this.  Amanda Knox's DNA is found mixed with the victim's own DNA in the staged break-in room.  Filomena, who slept in there, no traces of her DNA.  DNA traces are not that easy to create outside of bodily fluids.  Amanda Knox's DNA is not even found in her own bedroom.

My point?  I can't see a scenario where Guede's criminal involvement makes sense of the evidence.  There is an innocent and not unreasonable explanation for his role.  Which to me amounts to at least reasonable doubt.

[veritas]

I think perhaps your judgment is being clouded by black lives matter.

There was no motive here other than sex. Amanda had a boyfriend. No crimes of passion etc. Open and shut case.

If it isn't Guede then it was a secret society thing Meredith was involved with. Maybe she had an affair with an Italian politician. Her background seems suss.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

I think perhaps your judgment is being clouded by black lives matter.

There was no motive here other than sex. Amanda had a boyfriend. No crimes of passion etc. Open and shut case.

If it isn't Guede then it was a secret society thing Meredith was involved with. Maybe she had an affair with an Italian politician. Her background seems suss.

The body was moved after death to highlight a sexual attack.  The panties, removed, after death, again to highlight the same.  If Rudy Guede raped her, why would he then stage a rape scene afterwards?  Guede was not found to be crazy by any psychiatrist.

Guede also mentions the victim missing her rent money and rummaging through the house looking for it.  I think she suspected Amanda Knox had stolen it to support her drug habit.  Meredith's DNA samples from Amanda Knox's bedroom would seem to lend credence to this part of his story too.

I don't think you need to go as far as a secret society.  You just have to ask who stands to gain from staging a burglary?  To me, it's a no brainer that a staged burglary incriminates an insider.  This is without even looking at all the other evidence against Knox.

If on the other hand, Guede was part of the plot with Amanda and boyfriend, I think she would have fingered him, instead of the Lumumba hail Mary, and got off more easily.  The rest would have been mere irrelevant details, to be missed by even the more keen among us.

The prosecution's case was screwed up, but even then not completely, by what I will call Guede effect.  An innocent black man on a crime scene is likely to lead people on a wild goose chase.  Hence the fantastic theories that don't reconcile with the evidence.

[veritas]

The evidence is pretty clear to me. I know many drug addicts and they don't kill over rent money. There would've been a pattern of stealing. He's a sloppy killer and a liar. Woman don't stab another chic in the neck unless it involves jealousy or something social like that. Guys on the otherhand do randomly rape and kill. Unfortunately Italy is not the place to be for foreign exchange students. For a student to be killed effects tourism and trade deals. It's as serious as that. At least if they implicated the American chic, the public can focus on that.

There's just no motive for Amanda and no criminal profile. I'm without a doubt certain Guede stabbed her in the neck. He's at the height and torque to stab her in the neck. Amanda as a chic and probably weaker would've gone for the stomach. An unlikely scenario since Meredith sounds like the tougher chic. Those bruises around her mouth are from a guy. No way Amanda had that much rage inside her to clamp someone's mouth down and stab simultaneously in the neck.

Italians are known to stab in the neck. Here's another case of a British lady stabbed in the neck the Italian police blamed on suicide and claimed she was German.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2143180/Claire-stabbed-10-times-throat-died-gasping-A-man-man-So-Italian-police-say-suicide.html

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

The evidence is pretty clear to me. I know many drug addicts and they don't kill over rent money. There would've been a pattern of stealing. He's a sloppy killer and a liar. Woman don't stab another chic in the neck unless it involves jealousy or something social like that. Guys on the otherhand do randomly rape and kill. Unfortunately Italy is not the place to be for foreign exchange students. For a student to be killed effects tourism and trade deals. It's as serious as that. At least if they implicated the American chic, the public can focus on that.

There's just no motive for Amanda and no criminal profile. I'm without a doubt certain Guede stabbed her in the neck. He's at the height and torque to stab her in the neck. Amanda as a chic and probably weaker would've gone for the stomach. An unlikely scenario since Meredith sounds like the tougher chic. Those bruises around her mouth are from a guy. No way Amanda had that much rage inside her to clamp someone's mouth down and stab simultaneously in the neck.

Italians are known to stab in the neck. Here's another case of a British lady stabbed in the neck the Italian police blamed on suicide and claimed she was German.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2143180/Claire-stabbed-10-times-throat-died-gasping-A-man-man-So-Italian-police-say-suicide.html

By the evidence is clear, am I right to assume you think he broke into the cottage, then staged a break in, all the while leaving no trace of his presence in the break-in room?  Went to take a dump during the break-in?  Perhaps was caught by Meredith and he stabbed her?  Then spent the rest of the time trying to staunch the blood?  She died then he staged a rape?  Then he cleaned with bleach all traces of blood, making sure to leave his own bloody shoe prints leading straight to the exit?  Why would Guede do that?  He was not crazy as far as anyone can tell.

I think the better explanation is contained in his own testimony.  He was not with Amanda Knox and Rafaele; I believe we agree on that.  He did not stage the break-in.  Should he have reported the crime to the police right away?  I believe that was the right thing to do.  But there are innocent explanations why he didn't.

With Amanda Knox, the evidence against her is not as clear-cut, for a casual observer, at first glance.  Unfortunately this is as much as most people will ever go, and her PR machine will hog that space.  Yet, once you see it, it is almost impossible to find innocent explanations for it.  It only makes sense, if she was involved in the murder.

[veritas]

That's what a psychopath would do. He doesn't seem like a bright chap.

He came over, took a dump, tried to make out with her, she declined. He got angry and forced himself on her with a knife, she was too strong so he stabbed her. He tried to cover up but Amanda came back sooner than expected. He fled to Germany because he was guilty. Let me emphasise again he had no business whatsoever seeing Meredith, they weren't even dating. Rejection is perhaps what sparked his rage and subsequent killing.

Simple as that.

Termy, he fits the profile. He confessed. Amanda doesn't fit the profile. Her problem was naivety, she shouldn't have cooperated or have been entirely honest with the Italian cops. When you're too honest they think you're guilty and the wolves take advantage of that. I know what that's like.

[Bella]

Unfortunately,  I am not very well acquainted with this case,  though I did hear about it (on the Oprah show,  actually) a few years back when the American girl's family were on trying to get her freed (she was then in jail either awaiting trial or had just been convicted or something).  I remember feeling quite sorry for her,  they said she was just a college kid on a few weeks' vacation to Europe. Didn't follow it after that. I didn't even know that a black man was involved in the saga nor that the girl was eventually released. If I have time I may look at it in more detail, but right now I don't know enough about the details of the case to form an opinion either way.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Unfortunately,  I am not very well acquainted with this case,  though I did hear about it (on the Oprah show,  actually) a few years back when the American girl's family were on trying to get her freed (she was then in jail either awaiting trial or had just been convicted or something).  I remember feeling quite sorry for her,  they said she was just a college kid on a few weeks' vacation to Europe. Didn't follow it after that. I didn't even know that a black man was involved in the saga nor that the girl was eventually released. If I have time I may look at it in more detail, but right now I don't know enough about the details of the case to form an opinion either way.

Ok.  Oprah is likely going to give a perspective that favors sympathy with an innocent American girl entangled in the crime due to anti-American bias.  She will sell whatever message brings in the highest ratings and sympathy.  In America, few can rival an innocent young all-American(read blonde white) girl charged with a crime in which an obvious culprit(African black man Rudy Guede) has already been found.  Entertaining but not informative.

As for mainstream media in general, especially the English variety, they are either lazy, not interested in the facts, plain ignorant or straight up covering up and spreading falsehoods in that case.  In any case they only serve to magnify ignorance of the case.

The best places to find information are official Italian judicial sites, which are all in Italian.  The site The murder of Meredith Kercher has done the best job of any that I can think of in getting the key aspects of the case in English.  This usually is seen as a disservice to the truth by Amanda Knox supporters who prefer their own versions with little reference to the actual case.

Others like http://www.amandaknoxcase.com, http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/ are paid PR websites for Amanda Knox.  I included them as sources with the idea that it should be obvious, immediately if not shortly afterwards, that they are there to spread the innocence gospel.  They exhibit little to no interest in the actual facts of the case, opting to distort, and often tell outright lies, in the confidence that most of the English speaking audience, our dear veritas among them, will never bother to critically interrogate the story or with the original sources in Italian.

Guede's involvement is still unclear, apart from the fact that he leaves his trails all over the murder scene.   He then tells a story whose outline is generally consistently supported by the crime scene evidence.  To most of the western world though, his is a cut and open case.  A young black man, with no saintly credentials, at a murder scene. 

They are not wired to see Guede's presence any other way apart from a criminal involvement; Desmond Tutu would have his work cut out if he were to be found in Guede's situation.  Guede's own actions following the crime don't do him much favor with a world already predisposed to declare him guilty.  I also initially thought that his was straightforward guilt.  But he is an odd-ball as a participant when the evidence is looked at holistically.

As for Amanda Knox, the single fact that negates her factual innocence is the staged scene.  The break and the rape were staged.  The inexplicable confirmed lie upon confirmed lie that she tells afterwards, the victim's DNA on a knife blade with her DNA on the handle, found in her boyfriend's house, merely serve to reinforce the factual guilt IMO.

[veritas]

Termy, I get black lives matter and was shocked when I was in the States at how ugly white Americans were towards blacks. I didn't realise white American guys were so scum in real life. Without black Americans and hispanics, America would be a pretty trashy place to live.

Instead of focusing so much on the facts, why not focus on the scenario? What was Amanda's motive? If it wasn't Guede, it was probably the mafia or an outsider of somesort, random stabbing to who knows. At this point I'm still convinced it was Guede. He had motive. If he was so innocent, why didn't he try to help Meredith? Why did he flee to Germany? To me it is what it is. I haven't watched Oprah, I haven't seen a picture of Amanda. I'm going to break it down like MK does with maths. Feel free to correct.

x = meredith, y = guede, z = amanda, v = boyfriend

z and/or v = no prints at the crime scene - imagine a venn diagram....
let's assign a likelihood ratio to those 3 conditions.

I'm falling asleep already... Termy.... he killed her. Look at his eyes.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Termy, I get black lives matter and was shocked when I was in the States at how ugly white Americans were towards blacks. I didn't realise white American guys were so scum in real life. Without black Americans and hispanics, America would be a pretty trashy place to live.

Instead of focusing so much on the facts, why not focus on the scenario? What was Amanda's motive? If it wasn't Guede, it was probably the mafia or an outsider of somesort, random stabbing to who knows. At this point I'm still convinced it was Guede. He had motive. If he was so innocent, why didn't he try to help Meredith? Why did he flee to Germany? To me it is what it is. I haven't watched Oprah, I haven't seen a picture of Amanda. I'm going to break it down like MK does with maths. Feel free to correct.

x = meredith, y = guede, z = amanda, v = boyfriend

z and/or v = no prints at the crime scene - imagine a venn diagram....
let's assign a likelihood ratio to those 3 conditions.

I'm falling asleep already... Termy.... he killed her. Look at his eyes.

It's a thousand piece jigsaw puzzle.  You cannot get even an idea how the picture looks with ten pieces.  Guede stands out like a sore thumb.

[MOON Ki]

Terminator:

You wrote that

After some loud discussion, he hears a loud scream over his ipod.  He rushes out of the toilet to find Meredith had been stabbed in the neck.  He spends the rest of his time there trying to staunch her blood with towels.  Basically trying to save her life.  In the process he leaves the "incriminating" evidence.

and that

According to Guede, when he comes out of the bathroom, he runs into Rafaele, Amanda's boyfriend, who he has never met.  The guy has a knife.  They engage in a mini-scuffle on the porch.  Rafaele leaves, telling someone out of sight that it's a black guy and he'll be found culpable.

You and Guede need to pick one story and stick to it 

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Terminator:

You wrote that

After some loud discussion, he hears a loud scream over his ipod.  He rushes out of the toilet to find Meredith had been stabbed in the neck.  He spends the rest of his time there trying to staunch her blood with towels.  Basically trying to save her life.  In the process he leaves the "incriminating" evidence.

and that

According to Guede, when he comes out of the bathroom, he runs into Rafaele, Amanda's boyfriend, who he has never met.  The guy has a knife.  They engage in a mini-scuffle on the porch.  Rafaele leaves, telling someone out of sight that it's a black guy and he'll be found culpable.

You and Guede need to pick one story and stick to it 

That is actually my fault.  A lazy recollection.  But all those elements are actually there in his testimony.  I'll share the original once I get the chance.