Abortion and Adventism

[MOON Ki]

Moonki you probably need counseling for real.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I doubt that it would do me much good at this point.   Still, it's something to keep in mind, for future "explanations", should I ever go postal and find myself in the "criminal dock", with  friends, relatives, and co-workers wondering "such a nice, quiet man; I wonder what drove him to it; you never know with people ... he probably needed counseling over something.".   

[vooke]

Why I deeply respect Catholicism? Their stand on abortion is well known and highly controversial. They gladly wear their beliefs with confidence. So much that when a Catholic and an Adventist hospital wears competing to set up one, the public murmured against Catholic because of their pro-life stance. Apparently SDA hospitals perform abortion-on-demand like there is no tomorrow

[GeeMail]

Why I deeply respect Catholicism? Their stand on abortion is well known and highly controversial. They gladly wear their beliefs with confidence. So much that when a Catholic and an Adventist hospital wears competing to set up one, the public murmured against Catholic because of their pro-life stance. Apparently SDA hospitals perform abortion-on-demand like there is no tomorrow

Seriously Voke? Where do such thoughts come from?

[vooke]

Why I deeply respect Catholicism? Their stand on abortion is well known and highly controversial. They gladly wear their beliefs with confidence. So much that when a Catholic and an Adventist hospital wears competing to set up one, the public murmured against Catholic because of their pro-life stance. Apparently SDA hospitals perform abortion-on-demand like there is no tomorrow

Seriously Voke? Where do such thoughts come from?

Please read that article. It's so bad that they no longer share statistics on out-patient abortion on demand.

[GeeMail]

Our resident prophet once claimed

The Waldenses NEVER kept sabbath. Samuelle Bachiocchi could find NO evidence of their sabbath keeping despite more resources at his disposal. Let's aks him;

To my regret I found no allusion whatsoever to Sabbath-keeping among the Waldenses.

https://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_87.html

The (f) prophet implies that the Waldensians got their namefrom their footwear and were persecuted for, further implied, choosing to wear sandals different from other people around them.

What have historians recorded about the Waldensians?

Another scholar, Bonacursus, also wrote against them: "Not a few, but many know what are the errors of those who are called Pasigini. ... First, they teach that we should obey the sabbath. Furthermore, to increase their error, they condemn and reject all the church Fathers, and the whole Roman Church".[18] In Spain the persecution was directed at the Waldensian Sabbath-keepers.[19]

Let's quote a source from Rome, the power that persecuted the Waldensians.

The Roman Inquisitor Reinerus Sacho writing c. 1230 held the sect of the Vaudois to be of great antiquity, thus long preceding Waldo by centuries. In the Waldensians, Sabbatati or Insabbatati, there was a more or less continuous tradition of Sabbath-keeping from the early church of the Apostles, throughout southern Europe. There are also account of Paulicians, Petrobusians, Pasaginians along with the Waldenses of the Alps, who kept the Saturday for the Lord's day which was in conflict with the change to Sunday held by the Roman Catholic Church. The Sabbatati were known also by the name Pasigini. In reference to the Sabbath-keeping Pasigini, one scholar wrote: "The spread of heresy at this time is almost incredible. From Bulgaria to the Ebro, from Northern France to the Tiber, everywhere we meet them. Whole countries are infested, like Hungary and southern France; they abound in many other countries; in Germany, in Italy, in the Netherlands and even in England they put their efforts."

Apart from Sabbath-keeping, the Waldensians became the target of Rome's wrath for their beliefs such as...

They held that temporal offices and dignities were not meant for preachers of the Gospel; that relics were simply rotten bones which had belonged to one knew not whom; that to go on pilgrimage served no end, save to empty one's purse; that flesh might be eaten any day if one's appetite served one; that holy water was not a whit more efficacious than rain water; and that prayer in a barn was just as effectual as if offered in a church. They were accused, moreover, of having scoffed at the doctrine of transubstantiation, and of having spoken blasphemously of the Roman Catholic Church as the harlot of the apocalypse.[3] They rejected the perceived idolatry of the Roman Catholic Church and considered the Papacy as the Antichrist of Rome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians


Contrary to the above assertions and to the great embarrassment of the resident prophet, assuming the sense of embarrassment is not silenced yet, the real McCoy now goes ahead and apologizes to the Waldensians (for killing only 1,700 of them, official figures supplied by Rome, one would assume).
http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2015/06/22/pope-francis-asks-pardon-from-waldensian-protestants-for-past-persecution/

[vooke]

I googled 'The Roman Inquisitor Reinerus Sacho writing c. 1230 held the sect of the Vaudois to be of great antiquity, thus long preceding Waldo by centuries. In the Waldensians, Sabbatati or Insabbatati, there was a more or less continuous tradition of Sabbath-keeping from the'
And this is what I got;

Why are Adventists cheering? Because they have a smoking gun?
Wikipedia is open to editing by everyone. In fact this very page was edited just three days ago. That's why no serious scholars use it.

The source for the particular section is General History of the Baptist Denomination, Vol. II, p. 413.. That's what you should go for Daily Bread, get the author, date or even more sensibly ask the Waldesians themselves about their own history not Baptists

Now, I took the trouble to google for the book eons ago.
Here is the link;
https://archive.org/details/generalhistoryof02bene
Open page 413 or ANY other page and get me this,

The Roman Inquisitor Reinerus Sacho writing c. 1230 held the sect of the Vaudois to be of great antiquity, thus long preceding Waldo by centuries. In the Waldensians, Sabbatati or Insabbatati, there was a more or less continuous tradition of Sabbath-keeping from the early church of the Apostles, throughout southern Europe. There are also account of Paulicians, Petrobusians, Pasaginians along with the Waldenses of the Alps, who kept the Saturday for the Lord's day

I keep on telling you Adventists know no bound including LYING blatantly for their godess

[GeeMail]

The Wikipedia page on Waldensians is more useful than you make it to be. The recent editing only added the pope's apology (like a date stamp on a Nipate update). Now that it's on Wikipedia, one can imagine that authorities on their "not keeping the sabbath" would have noticed and updated the entry appropriately. Wikipedia is still a pretty good source.

[vooke]

The Wikipedia page on Waldensians is more useful than you make it to be. The recent editing only added the pope's apology (like a date stamp on a Nipate update). Now that it's on Wikipedia, one can imagine that authorities on their "not keeping the sabbath" would have noticed and updated the entry appropriately. Wikipedia is still a pretty good source.

The source for this statement below is UTTERLY false.

The Roman Inquisitor Reinerus Sacho writing c. 1230 held the sect of the Vaudois to be of great antiquity, thus long preceding Waldo by centuries. In the Waldensians, Sabbatati or Insabbatati, there was a more or less continuous tradition of Sabbath-keeping from the early church of the Apostles, throughout southern Europe. There are also account of Paulicians, Petrobusians, Pasaginians along with the Waldenses of the Alps, who kept the Saturday for the Lord's day

Adventists know no bounds when it comes to shamelessly defending their godess.
I have attached a copy of the book above. Read it ten times and show me where this entry got their Reinerus  Sacho remarks about Waldesians.

And did you note the reference is minus the author, and the book title is incomplete?
Why all this monkey business?
Here is the book again
https://archive.org/details/generalhistoryof02bene
Download it and do search and tell me whether any of those terms register anything

[GeeMail]

What is false? Attribution is a simple art even on Wikipedia. Here is the full Wikipedia quote....

The Roman Inquisitor Reinerus Sacho writing c. 1230 held the sect of the Vaudois to be of great antiquity, thus long preceding Waldo by centuries. In the Waldensians, Sabbatati or Insabbatati, there was a more or less continuous tradition of Sabbath-keeping from the early church of the Apostles, throughout southern Europe. There are also account of Paulicians, Petrobusians, Pasaginians along with the Waldenses of the Alps, who kept the Saturday for the Lord's day[16] 

The footnote #16 refers to the General History of the Baptist Denomination in America. That volume gives a detailed account of Seventh-Day Baptists who kept Saturday which is what the Wikipedia page is dealing with. The footnote does not refer to Reinerus Sacho directly.  http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/A_General_History_of_the_Baptist_Denomination_in_America_and_Other_v2_1000521290/413

Rather than proving Wikipedia false, your Google search does the exact opposite.

[vooke]

The footnote #16 refers to the General History of the Baptist Denomination in America. That volume gives a detailed account of Seventh-Day Baptists who kept Saturday which is what the Wikipedia page is dealing with. The footnote does not refer to Reinerus Sacho directly.  http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/A_General_History_of_the_Baptist_Denomination_in_America_and_Other_v2_1000521290/413

Rather than proving Wikipedia false, your Google search does the exact opposite.

The book makes no mention of Waldensians
Show me where the author dug this statement from

In the Waldensians, Sabbatati or Insabbatati, there was a more or less continuous tradition of Sabbath-keeping from the early church of the Apostles, throughout southern Europe

That's a totally baseless claim and you are using it to prove me wrong.
The statement also reeks of Adventist slant. That's what gave away the editor.
Do you have any idea why that citation is placed there and nowhere else?

[GeeMail]

The book makes no mention of Waldensians
Show me where the author dug this statement from

In the Waldensians, Sabbatati or Insabbatati, there was a more or less continuous tradition of Sabbath-keeping from the early church of the Apostles, throughout southern Europe

That's a totally baseless claim and you are using it to prove me wrong.

The statement also reeks of Adventist slant. That's what gave away the editor.

And for what good reason would a writer of the history of Seventh-Day Baptists take an Adventist slant?

I keep saying school ruined your education and the situation is only made worse by your obsession with anything anti-Adventist, anti-Sabbath. If you did not diddle in class you would have noticed that Waldenses and Waldensians and Vaduois are sometimes used interchangeably. Specifically, the book you loudly proclaim does not mention Waldensians has this sentence in black and white. It is in the right hand column towards the bottom of the page just in case you can't see it.


http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/A_General_History_of_the_Baptist_Denomination_in_America_and_Other_v2_1000521290/413

Robinson gives an account of some of the Waldenses of the Alps, who were called Salbati, Sabbatali, Insaibatatiy but more frequently

[/b]

To worsen your nightmare, here is a textbook entry on the Sabbath-keepers.
https://books.google.co.ke/books?id=69kPZE79wWMC&pg=PA423&lpg=PA423&dq=Reinerus+Sacho&source=bl&ots=IhPfyX_Nyt&sig=t8J_KqoZ3bBB7RqUSkWCcaQg9e0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kTqVVZCzBce07AbHg4SoBg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Reinerus%20Sacho&f=false

[vooke]

And for what good reason would a writer of the history of Seventh-Day Baptists take an Adventist slant?

The writer is not giving a history of Seventh Day Baptists, he is focussing on Waldensians, a group which Ellen White FALSELY claimed they kept sabbath. So somebody sympathetic to Adventism has attempted to mislead simpletons by making a baseless statement.

I keep saying school ruined your education and the situation is only made worse by your obsession with anything anti-Adventist, anti-Sabbath. If you did not diddle in class you would have noticed that Waldenses and Waldensians and Vaduois are sometimes used interchangeably. Specifically, the book you loudly proclaim does not mention Waldensians has this sentence in black and white. It is in the right hand column towards the bottom of the page just in case you can't see it.


http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/A_General_History_of_the_Baptist_Denomination_in_America_and_Other_v2_1000521290/413

Robinson gives an account of some of the Waldenses of the Alps, who were called Salbati, Sabbatali, Insaibatatiy but more frequently

[/b]

The point remains,
The book is no evidence of Waldensians continuous tradition of sabbath keeping from the early church of the apostle.

Once you get that, please come and correct me

[GeeMail]

The goalposts have shifted from the north to the south pole.

[vooke]

The goalposts have shifted from the north to the south pole.

No they haven't .The Waldensians NEVER kept sabbath and Wikipedia is not helping you at all. By quoting a book with ZERO relation to your point, you are being dishonest.

Waldensians have books as well. Read them. Sabbath keeping in antiquity is certainly no skeletons they keep in a closet. Why are they all unanimously opposed to EGW fantasies?

This is what Bachiocchi grapples with before finally throwing in the towel. He is a wise man, never thawed his brains for a song

[GeeMail]

The goalposts have shifted from the north to the south pole.

No they haven't .The Waldensians NEVER kept sabbath and Wikipedia is not helping you at all. By quoting a book with ZERO relation to your point, you are being dishonest.

Waldensians have books as well. Read them. Sabbath keeping in antiquity is certainly no skeletons they keep in a closet. Why are they all unanimously opposed to EGW fantasies?

This is what Bachiocchi grapples with before finally throwing in the towel. He is a wise man, never thawed his brains for a song

The statement EGW makes in The Great Controversy about Wandensians has support from scholars and Rome itself. For you to claim the Waldensians did not keep the Sabbath, you will need a positive statement from them refuting EGW, or evidence that they for example kept Sunday. From their teachings you can easily tell they were opposed to popery and for that reason they were persecuted, hence the recent apology from Rome. The Sabbath law is one of those things that popery has trampled down to the ground and even without documented historical evidence it is not far-fetched to attribute Rome's hatred for Waldensians to Sabbath-keeping. The reason Rome is not persecuting Presbyterians today is because Presbyterians, having long forgotten where Protestantism came from, now bow low at Rome's altar and spend long essays justifying Rome's signal doctrine of Sunday worship.
Beelzebub does not eat its daughters.

[vooke]

The statement EGW makes in The Great Controversy about Wandensians has support from scholars and Rome itself. For you to claim the Waldensians did not keep the Sabbath, you will need a positive statement from them refuting EGW, or evidence that they for example kept Sunday. From their teachings you can easily tell they were opposed to popery and for that reason they were persecuted, hence the recent apology from Rome. The Sabbath law is one of those things that popery has trampled down to the ground and even without documented historical evidence it is not far-fetched to attribute Rome's hatred for Waldensians to Sabbath-keeping. The reason Rome is not persecuting Presbyterians today is because Presbyterians, having long forgotten where Protestantism came from, now bow low at Rome's altar and spend long essays justifying Rome's signal doctrine of Sunday worship.
Beelzebub does not eat its daughters.

And many rants later you have no such evidence
Catholicism persecuted Waldensians among others but not over sabbath because Waldensians NEVER kept Sabbath.

A good place to understand Adventism is from Adventism sewers not Rome or from Jehovah's Witnesses. Get a brain like Bachiocchi, and start with Waldensian sources. There are several books dealing exclusively with Waldensians. Or ask Waldensians themselves.

[GeeMail]

Voke are you still concerned about abortion? Or was abortion being used as a thinly veiled device to launch another attack on adventism? I do not support abortion (pro-life to death). Since you started the debate, let me bring this to your attention though I suppose you know already.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/15/health/planned-parenthood-undercover-video/index.html

[vooke]

Voke are you still concerned about abortion? Or was abortion being used as a thinly veiled device to launch another attack on adventism? I do not support abortion (pro-life to death). Since you started the debate, let me bring this to your attention though I suppose you know already.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/15/health/planned-parenthood-undercover-video/index.html

You are 'pro-life to death', but is Adventism 'pro-life to death?' Do they perform abortion on-demand at Loma Linda? Would the organ hawkers behave differently if they was Adventists?

Let's talk about that