Author Topic: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy  (Read 40950 times)

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #100 on: April 24, 2015, 02:02:09 AM »
You main problem is that your think  because Africans are dying; so Africans need to be involved either as AU or Africa gov. I see human beings needing to do something about fellow human being sufferings. The EU leadership have to do this. And the reason..this is humanitarian crisis at the gates of EU..not an African crisis. EU leadership have to stop cowering to racist right wing and enact progressive immigration policies that treat all refugees fairly.

You continue to let emotion get the better of you.   Please try to calm down.  Let me, again, explain some things for you:

(1) Omollo has, for example, pointed out that Nigeria is not a poor country and Nigerians on those boats are simply fleeing societal inequities.   I've stated that that fundamental problem can be solved only by Nigerians.   If you suggest otherwise, then I'd like to hear how the external world should solve the problems of inequities in Nigeria. It won't do to simply keep insisting that Africans have too many problems and can't be expected to do anything for themselves; nor will it do to keep repeating that China will solve it all.

(2) The simple fact is that European countries are not going to make major changes in their immigration policies any time soon.    This hard fact should be taken into account after all the demands have been made for "progressive immigration policies".

In the interests of objectivity: As all sorts of claims and calls are made, we must keep in mind that since the start of 2014, the Italian government's  claimed record is that it has taken about 200,000 people from those waters.  Those people were then been processed in some standard manner. So one of the things that needs to happen in this debate is a dropping of the idea that someone is always happy to let these people drown.

Yes, all refugees must be treated fairly.  But the fact is that all countries make a distinction between purely economic refugees and those fleeing war, political persecution, and so forth.  (That is where the "international obligations" come in.) What's more, I don't see that changing any time soon.

Quote
That EU won't probably do nothing because those dying are Africans. What bollocks is that.

I stated above that I'm sure the EU will do something; they have in fact been doing a lot more than many on the African side.   My question is whether the something will be of a sort that will result in long-term, positive solutions.   Other than that, I've simply noted the rather obvious fact that racism against Africans (blacks) is part of mzungu make-up. 

Something very important about such discussions: It is important to be aware of views on the other side, even if we don't agree with them.    And this requires a calm and objective consideration.   Of course, one can simply insist that this and that must be done, but for the matter to be handled properly, all views must be considered.   

Here on Nipate, we might dismiss a view such as the following, but questions are being asked and comments are being made, and all these feed into whatever final action if taken.   A competition to portray oneself as more "humanitarian" or "more teary" or whatever will not achieve much.    Speaking of different, here's something from an African article I  read just a short while ago ... and which attempts to look at both sides:

Quote

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2015-04-22-analysis-the-migrant-boat-crisis-is-not-just-europes-problem/#.VTlz7GdFAzt

(Others elsewhere have similar comments/questions, and some of those others are in a position to have a say as to what happens.)

To my mind, even if one disagrees with or finds such comments and questions distasteful, it is unwise to simply dismiss them without some hard, objective logic.

Similarly, while we can appreciate and praise novel ideas on how the world would be such a better place if all was shared equally and we all just got along as human beings,  the rather unpleasant fact is that those who have and those who control---whether individuals or nations---are never keen on any equal sharing.  On the contrary, the drive seems to be to have more than others.   We can decry that, on whatever grounds, but that alone is insufficient.

In order not to get side-tracked some more, may I propose the following: 

(a) We all agree that you and Omollo are great humanitarians, with very noble hearts and excellent ideas.

(b) We all agree that when it comes to such a tragedy, everything must be done by all.  Further, we all agree that racism, right-wing sentiments, etc. are all to be condemned in the strongest possible terms.

(c) Given the projections of the numbers who might die in that sea this year, we then move to a discussion on what can be done this year and in the short term (to avoid an annual repeat).
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Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #101 on: April 24, 2015, 06:21:10 PM »
I have followed the tragedy since last summer and was one of those who opposed the cutting down for Search and Rescue resources.

In am for fundamental changes in the countries donating the refugees. That is why I take a combined hardline against social ills and positive suggestions of improvement of our own Kenya.

The proposals I make for new international or transnational consensus on the Asylum Institutions cannot realistically be brought to fruition in our lifetime. Others such as the use of quarters to minimize the burden on one country are gaining ground and may eventually be adopted by the EU after much fighting.

It would help if the AU also adopted the same and offered quarters to refugees. For example some countries like DRC may be poor and cannot afford to give everyone an apartment. But they are rich on land --- lots of land. A number of people running away because of the shortage of land would be quite at home with that.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #102 on: April 24, 2015, 06:32:29 PM »
I have in addition proposed that Poverty be made a legitimate ground for asylum. So able bodied Nigerian young men can qualify to fill up those Ghost towns in Italy and US. Indeed the whole idea of saying "economic refugees" and pretending that one has therefore no further responsibility must end. In fact I dare add it will come to a screeching halt with the effects of global warming that are soon coming to the country near you.

Domestic solution or International?:

I think both. We have a duty to help ourselves within our countries. However just like South Korea (I have yet to post MK's response on that country!) told Japan instead of reparations, finance our infrastructure projects, Africa could get her act together. The period when The West could act out of guilt was allowed to lapse as we engaged in Mobutu-like debauchery and excesses.

Let us use our resources, mineral wealth, human capital etc to leverage the international community be it East or West. Pakistan three days ago signed a huge bilateral agreement with China to the shock of the US. Those projects will end insurgency in Pakistan long before drones do.

(1) Omollo has, for example, pointed out that Nigeria is not a poor country and Nigerians on those boats are simply fleeing societal inequities.   I've stated that that fundamental problem can be solved only by Nigerians.   If you suggest otherwise, then I'd like to hear how the external world should solve the problems of inequities in Nigeria. It won't do to simply keep insisting that Africans have too many problems and can't be expected to do anything for themselves; nor will it do to keep repeating that China will solve it all.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #103 on: April 24, 2015, 06:57:52 PM »
If you examine the Geneva Convention and read the OAU Convention governing specific aspects of Refugees you would find that the latter goes much further than the GC! It has been praised and is now applied by non African countries first in their courts and reluctantly in their practices. Yet it drew laughter and derision when the Africans came up with it. It reflected the African values of kindness and neighborliness. Africa took a firm stand even when the refugee problem was not yet as acute as today. Lest I be mistaken, there are still very many countries that cannot touch it.

Indeed the European countries have come up with their own pacts with restrictive intentions.

What I am saying is that what I have "proposed" is nothing new. These are ideas that are now in free flow. People are rethinking the whole idea of building walls around their borders to lock out people and animals. Would you like to build a wall between Kenya and Tanzania to stretch the full length of the Masaai Mara?? We are inter-dependent.

What can Kenya do?
1. Unilaterally grant free movement of labor and people from Africa. No visas and unrestricted work permits (can charge minimal administrations fee);
2. Allow any refugee from any country the right of entry and care (by NGOs). No state money to be sued except on security
3. Allow Ethiopians wishing to transit to other countries freedom of movement as long as they have travel documents
4. No restrictions of trade licenses and ease of registration of businesses
5. Free access to medicine for all residents (must register and show tax compliance. Does not mean one has to pay taxes. Simply file tax returns even if unemployed). Those with income must join the NHIF

Now let anybody tell me what would go wrong with this and tell me why it has not broken Dubai


I did not miss any of it.   I'm all for what Pundit calls your "progressive ideas": "fundamental and revolutionary review of the asylum institution", filling "empty spaces in Ghost towns in Italy, US etc.", a world that is "truly borderless", and so on and so forth.   Excellent ideas, all of them.  Truly excellent.  Simply outstanding in sheer originality. 

 Just a couple of questions:

(a) When exactly do you see all this happening? (No need at present to go into who would start it and how the world would go about it.  Just a rough estimate of the "when" will do.)

(b) If it is not in the near future, in which many more will be dying daily, any thoughts of what is to be done as we wait for the above world?
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #104 on: April 25, 2015, 12:31:48 AM »
Here is what the Europeans have now come up with, by way of "doing something":

Quote
Ten points

* Reinforce the Joint Operations in the Mediterranean, namely Triton and Poseidon, by increasing the financial resources and the number of assets. We will also extend their operational area, allowing us to intervene further, within the mandate of Frontex;

* A systematic effort to capture and destroy vessels used by the smugglers. The positive results obtained with the Atalanta operation should inspire us to similar operations against smugglers in the Mediterranean;

* EUROPOL, FRONTEX, EASO and EUROJUST will meet regularly and work closely to gather information on smugglers modus operandi, to trace their funds and to assist in their investigation;

* EASO to deploy teams in Italy and Greece for joint processing of asylum applications;

* Member States to ensure fingerprinting of all migrants;

* Consider options for an emergency relocation mechanism;

* A EU wide voluntary pilot project on resettlement, offering a number of places to persons in need of protection;

* Establish a new return programme for rapid return of irregular migrants coordinated by Frontex from frontline Member States;

* Engagement with countries surrounding Libya through a joined effort between the Commission and the EEAS; initiatives in Niger have to be stepped up.

* Deploy Immigration Liaison Officers (ILO) in key third countries, to gather intelligence on migratory flows and strengthen the role of the EU Delegations.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-4813_en.htm

Nothing major there.   There might be a change in numbers accepted, but even there the wording should be carefully noted: something seemingly favourable for "persons in need of protection", but the "rapid return of irregular migrants".   

I see more young, able Africans continuing to die in those waters.   
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #105 on: April 25, 2015, 12:41:06 AM »
I have in addition proposed that Poverty be made a legitimate ground for asylum. So able bodied Nigerian young men can qualify to fill up those Ghost towns in Italy and US. Indeed the whole idea of saying "economic refugees" and pretending that one has therefore no further responsibility must end.

Yours is indeed a noble proposal.  And of course, there  "must" be an end to the "pretending".   In the meantime, in the real world of real realities, the EU's plan is that "irregular migrants"---you will be happy to note that they are not "economic refuges"---are to be sent back just as soon as they have recovered from their time in the water. 

So it will probably be some time before "able bodied Nigerian young men ... fill up those Ghost towns in Italy and US". 
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #106 on: April 25, 2015, 12:52:10 AM »
The period when The West could act out of guilt was allowed to lapse as we engaged in Mobutu-like debauchery and excesses.

Let us use our resources, mineral wealth, human capital etc to leverage the international community be it East or West.

Exactly.  Whatever mzungu took, he's not going to give it all back.   Whatever mess he made, he's not going to undo all of it.    And wailing about how we are "owed" won't change anything.  There's just one the path to real change.
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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #107 on: April 25, 2015, 01:12:11 AM »
If you examine the Geneva Convention and read the OAU Convention governing specific aspects of Refugees you would find that the latter goes much further than the GC! It has been praised and is now applied by non African countries first in their courts and reluctantly in their practices. Yet it drew laughter and derision when the Africans came up with it. It reflected the African values of kindness and neighborliness.

There are grounds on which the claims you make can be argued against, but we need not dwell on that.   More pertinent:

(a) What exactly has the AU done about this now-annual Mediterranean Tragedy?  What has it even attempted to do?   As has been asked: what has it even said about this latest "event"?

(b)  Looking at the mayhem all over the continent, where can we today find convincing evidence of this "African values of kindness and neighborliness"?   From South Africa, the great word of our times is "ubuntu".   Where is the "ubuntu" there right now?

OAU, AU, whatever it will be called next ... at some time there need to be a movement from grand Vision-2030 type of paperwork---and the AU churns them out 24/7, 365/per---to actual practice.
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Offline Logan

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #108 on: April 25, 2015, 02:04:47 AM »
 :(

And Life Goes On..

Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #109 on: April 25, 2015, 02:12:00 PM »
MK

I can't hold brief for the AU. However what do you think they should do? What do you believe they could have done and did not?

Note the following:
1. The tragedy is unfolding in the borders of
(a) Countries that are nominal AU members such as Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Morocco etc. These countries first and foremost identify themselves as Arab and not African even though we share the same continent. You probably recall Morocco refusing to host football on spurious reasons of Ebola carrying Africans;
(b) The waters and territories of Europe.
2. Whichever way you look at it, Nigeria is far off has her hands full of Boko Haram; Most of the refugee donating countries are themselves engulfed in serious problems. Mali can do zilch.
3. Yes, I have said before that these problems emanate inside Africa. It does not mean that Africa should solve every stage of the problem. The problems at the source could be addressed by the African states. Ethiopia could do something about Poverty especially you unemployment. As you know that kind of problem cannot be solved overnight
4. Europe as has been pointed out has a responsibility to deal with the problem of migrants. It is their problem as long as it is happening within their sphere of influence.
5. Europe should deal with the migrant issue without complaints. They should be grateful to Africa donating so many young able bodied men and women. They do not have to reenact the Slave Trade era to get replacement for a dwindling and ageing population that needs care-givers. Let them educate their people about the need for migrants and change the fear and xenophobia to a welcoming attitude. That is the only way they can save those Ghost towns. If not the Africans and Asians will still enter the towns and cities which would be empty.
There are grounds on which the claims you make can be argued against, but we need not dwell on that.   More pertinent:

(a) What exactly has the AU done about this now-annual Mediterranean Tragedy?  What has it even attempted to do?   As has been asked: what has it even said about this latest "event"?

(b)  Looking at the mayhem all over the continent, where can we today find convincing evidence of this "African values of kindness and neighborliness"?   From South Africa, the great word of our times is "ubuntu".   Where is the "ubuntu" there right now?

OAU, AU, whatever it will be called next ... at some time there need to be a movement from grand Vision-2030 type of paperwork---and the AU churns them out 24/7, 365/per---to actual practice.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #110 on: April 25, 2015, 04:00:07 PM »
MK

I can't hold brief for the AU. However what do you think they should do? What do you believe they could have done and did not?

For a start they could even just say something.   Acknowledge the problem.  They  could then move to starting to consider how to deal with it; after all, they employ plenty of people whose job supposedly is to come up solutions to African problems.

Just a short while ago on this thread, you made some interesting comments and asked an interesting question.    That was this:

Quote
Egypt just sent warships to Yemen to fight and cause more refugees. Israel has an navy as has Sudan, Kenya, South Africa, Tunisia, Algeria and Morroco. Nigerian warships are used to smuggle oil and arms. Why have they not done anything?

We have soldiers who wake up in the morning eat and then sleep.

Perhaps a reflection on that, which you wrote, will help you find the answers that you seek.   For example, when you say that "Nigeria is far off has her hands full of Boko Haram", you should weigh it against your statement that "Nigerian warships are used to smuggle oil and arms."

Looking at your list, one would get the impression that the AU and the whole of Africa cannot do anything about any of this.   One hopes that is surely not the case.   For starters, some of the major human-trafficking routes used in this business start in Accra, Lagos, Nairobi, and Addis Ababa; one thing that could be done is to disrupt the human traffickers at those very points. 

Quote
Europe should deal with the migrant issue without complaints. They should be grateful to Africa donating so many young able bodied men and women. They do not have to reenact the Slave Trade era to get replacement for a dwindling and ageing population that needs care-givers. Let them educate their people about the need for migrants and change the fear and xenophobia to a welcoming attitude. That is the only way they can save those Ghost towns. If not the Africans and Asians will still enter the towns and cities which would be empty.

That is all correct.   Absolutely.   The problem is that people don't always act or see things the way we think they should.   So while you insist on what the EU should do,  and you plan a UN Body For Migration that will fill their ghost towns, they have declared that they will accelerate on returning the "irregular migrants".   
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Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #111 on: April 25, 2015, 10:18:17 PM »
MK

About what the AU saying something: The AU is a pure talking shop.Read Austin Bukenya's The People Bachelor to get an idea. Bukenya pillories the body in a way few writers have done. So if you wait just until the next "summit" there will be enough hard hitting resolutions. I guess this one is not as urgent as the ICC to convene an emergency summit. Unless some criminal has captured a state and is willing to sponsor the emergency summit with tax payers money!

ACTION: I admit I did state that Africa could do something - even send naval boats that are now being used to ferry contraband. It is not just Nigeria, even the Kenyan Navy is ferrying contraband from Kismayo to Mtongwe and in to the open market and vice versa.

On closer examination, I formed the opinion that sending African Navies to the mediterranean would simply expand their money making schemes. They would help the smugglers and not end the menace. Call me prejudiced but I am going with the existing record. I think African countries should not be involved in this rescue at all.

UN Body: I note that you are making fun of the idea. It is quite in order. I will however correct you:
1. The Proposed International Body to regulate Migration quarters would deal with a problem that is there and solutions that are being practised both legally and illegally. People are still migrating both legally and illegally. It is a call to realism and pragmatism
2. The reference to Ghost Cities: I could have chosen to be academic and churn demographic charts and figures. The point is that there is population decline in some parts of the world while there is an explosion in others. When I was in primary school I read somewhere: Water finds its own level. I want to say whether these countries with Ghost towns want it or not, those empty spaces will fill up. Why not be pragmatic and do it in an organized way? For example how long do you give Australia before it becomes a regular Asian country? The whites over there have resorted to draconian tactics to keep their country white but it will not work unless each white woman starts bearing 11 children for the next 50 years.

... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #112 on: April 25, 2015, 11:29:49 PM »
Omollo:

You state that your proposed UN body is

Quote
It is a call to realism and pragmatism.

The way your proposed body would work is that it would, essentially, require countries to hand over the immigration policies to the UN.   What is the likelihood of that happening?  I also asked you about a suggested time frame for your UN body to come into action ...

By the way, I actually do agree with you that the world can and ought to do a better job in dealing with migration.  What I don't see is any quick fixes.

On "ghost cities", population levels, water finding its own level, etc: 

Populations declining in some places while populations explode in others is not new.   But it does not necessarily lead to a balancing in "filling empty spaces".   Places like India, the Philippines, and so on, have allowed their populations to explode; but while there are more of their citizens in different places around the world, the majority are still suffering in the native country.   China, on the other hand, simply forced water to its own level: one-child policy.

I have no "fundamental" issue with your proposal to use hardly Africans to "whole-sale" fill up "ghost cities" in Europe and elsewhere; in fact, I've already stated that it would be beneficial to both sides.   The question is this: what are the realistic chances of that happening

Quote
For example how long do you give Australia before it becomes a regular Asian country?

I have no idea, although I have looked at their overall immigration figures.   When do you think that might happen, and on what basis do you think that?  More importantly, how would that improve the world's "population balance"?

Quote
African Navies to the mediterranean would simply expand their money making schemes. They would help the smugglers and not end the menace.   Call me prejudiced but I am going with the existing record. I think African countries should not be involved in this rescue at all.

No, I would not call you prejudiced; the hard facts probably support your view.   But here is what we have now from the above:

* The Europeans are being called on to discharge their "moral obligations", denounce racism, have been accused of crimes against humanity over the deaths and so on, and so forth ...

* The Africans on the other hand are not only doing bugger-all, but, it is suggested, should actually stay away because they would only make the problems worse.  (It brings to mind irresponsible children who should "go play"   and let the grown-ups get on with sorting out things.)

There is an "issue" there, and it will not be lost on the citizens of Europe (and they have some say in the policies of their governments).   

At the end of the day, here's my view in a nutshell:

* The people dying in those waters are Africans.  Mostly young African men in their prime.

* The tears being shed---by family, friends, and other loved ones---are mostly African tears, in Africa.

* Whatever the loss is, it is mostly an African one.    I don't see Europe as suffering any noteworthy negative effects.

Given all that, and regardless of what roles and responsibilities Europeans have in the matter, there has to be a time when it is recognized as an African Problem.   And if it is an African Problem, then the solution too will have to be an African Solution.   Until then, it is Africa that will continue to lose.

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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #113 on: April 25, 2015, 11:45:21 PM »
Omollo:

You state that your proposed UN body is

Quote
It is a call to realism and pragmatism.

The way your proposed body would work is that it would, essentially, require countries to hand over the immigration policies to the UN.   What is the likelihood of that happening?  I also asked you about a suggested time frame for your UN body to come into action ...

By the way, I actually do agree with you that the world can and ought to do a better job in dealing with migration.  What I don't see is any quick fixes.

On "ghost cities", population levels, water finding its own level, etc: 

Populations declining in some places while populations explode in others is not new.   But it does not necessarily lead to a balancing in "filling empty spaces".   Places like India, the Philippines, and so on, have allowed their populations to explode; but while there are more of their citizens in different places around the world, the majority are still suffering in the native country.   China, on the other hand, simply forced water to its own level: one-child policy.

I have no "fundamental" issue with your proposal to use hardy Africans to "whole-sale" fill up "ghost cities" in Europe and elsewhere; in fact, I've already stated that it would be beneficial to both sides.   The question is this: what are the realistic chances of that happening

Quote
For example how long do you give Australia before it becomes a regular Asian country?

I have no idea, although I have looked at their overall immigration figures.   When do you think that might happen, and on what basis do you think that?  More importantly, how would that improve the world's "population balance"?

Quote
African Navies to the mediterranean would simply expand their money making schemes. They would help the smugglers and not end the menace.   Call me prejudiced but I am going with the existing record. I think African countries should not be involved in this rescue at all.

No, I would not call you prejudiced; the hard facts probably support your view.   But here is what we have now from the above:

* The Europeans are being called on to discharge their "moral obligations", denounce racism, have been accused of crimes against humanity over the deaths,  and so on, and so forth ...

* The Africans on the other hand are not only doing bugger-all, but, it is suggested, should actually stay away because they would only make the problems worse.  (It brings to mind irresponsible children who should "go play"   and let the grown-ups get on with sorting out things.)

(There is an "issue" there, and it will not be lost on the citizens of Europe, and they have some say in the policies of their governments.)   

The same sort of vigorous criticism that has been thrown at European governments also should be thrown at African governments.   It cannot be simply accepted that the latter are so hopeless and incompetent that they must be left alone .   

At the end of the day, here's my view in a nutshell:

* The people dying in those waters are Africans.  Mostly young African men in their prime.

* The tears being shed---by family, friends, and other loved ones---are mostly African tears, in Africa.

* Whatever the loss is, it is mostly an African one.    I don't see Europe as suffering any noteworthy negative effects.

Given all that, and regardless of what roles and responsibilities Europeans have in the matter, there has to be a time when it is recognized as an African Problem.   And if it is an African Problem, then the solution too will have to be an African Solution.   Until then, it is Africa that will continue to lose.

MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline Reticent Solipsist

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #114 on: May 07, 2015, 07:08:06 AM »

The only way to prevent the deaths of these immigrants is to stop them boarding the boats in Libya from where they embark on these perilous trans-Mediterranean voyages.

Additionally, I have yet to hear of an Extraordinary Summit of the AU designed to address the plight of these wretched souls from the dark continent (I draw a distinction from the Afghan, Iraqi or Syrian refugees).

The push factors forcing them out of Africa must first and foremost be addressed by the leaders of in-dependent and sovereign African countries.

Offline Reticent Solipsist

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #115 on: August 01, 2015, 11:41:53 AM »

The only way to prevent the deaths of these immigrants is to stop them boarding the boats in Libya from where they embark on these perilous trans-Mediterranean voyages.

Additionally, I have yet to hear of an Extraordinary Summit of the AU designed to address the plight of these wretched souls from the dark continent (I draw a distinction from the Afghan, Iraqi or Syrian refugees).

The push factors forcing them out of Africa must first and foremost be addressed by the leaders of in-dependent and sovereign African countries.

Observing what is going on with the hordes of immigrants in Calais who are attempting to cross the Channel to the UK -- it's worth asking whether France and the UK are at risk of losing sovereignty over their immigration policy.

Where is the beloved People's Republic of China to take in these poor souls, especially their African friends.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #117 on: April 19, 2016, 03:32:18 PM »
The only people I feel for are those from war-torn lands - Libya, Somalia, South Sudan. Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan. But invariably you see quotes from Ethiopia, Egypt, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc. There is always the question of how someone fleeing war in Somalia manages to reach the Mediterranean Sea by road without finding safety somewhere in between. Few of these victims are genuine war refugees... economy is the driver.

I agree with your sentiment: ultimately Africa must solve her own internal problems, little by little. The same for the Middle East. The right wing is taking over Europe and threatening to tear EU apart over immigration - even intra-EU! Tough luck getting help from them.


Continuing:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36071737
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #118 on: April 19, 2016, 04:12:22 PM »
The only people I feel for are those from war-torn lands - Libya, Somalia, South Sudan. Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan. But invariably you see quotes from Ethiopia, Egypt, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc. There is always the question of how someone fleeing war in Somalia manages to reach the Mediterranean Sea by road without finding safety somewhere in between. Few of these victims are genuine war refugees... economy is the driver.

I agree with your sentiment: ultimately Africa must solve her own internal problems, little by little. The same for the Middle East. The right wing is taking over Europe and threatening to tear EU apart over immigration - even intra-EU! Tough luck getting help from them.


Continuing:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36071737
You'll be amazed at the types of people you find among "refugees".  I once met a full blooded Zulu who had somehow arrived here through Kakuma in Kenya.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #119 on: April 19, 2016, 04:23:59 PM »
The only people I feel for are those from war-torn lands - Libya, Somalia, South Sudan. Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan. But invariably you see quotes from Ethiopia, Egypt, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc. There is always the question of how someone fleeing war in Somalia manages to reach the Mediterranean Sea by road without finding safety somewhere in between. Few of these victims are genuine war refugees... economy is the driver.

I agree with your sentiment: ultimately Africa must solve her own internal problems, little by little. The same for the Middle East. The right wing is taking over Europe and threatening to tear EU apart over immigration - even intra-EU! Tough luck getting help from them.


Continuing:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36071737
You'll be amazed at the types of people you find among "refugees".  I once met a full blooded Zulu who had somehow arrived here through Kakuma in Kenya.

That is OK by me -- get to Canaan but don't die trying. My disgust is at the hotblooded Zulu zenithly found floating headfast in the sea.

♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels