Author Topic: Let's Pray  (Read 27906 times)

Offline mya88

  • Moderator
  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 399
  • Reputation: 2095
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2015, 10:03:59 PM »

Hi mya,
I hope you are not offended by the length of my posts. Am going through them and some appear really long. I know these are deep questions and we can't just gloss over. At the same time I'd hate to bore you to death with endless inshas.

When I said work out your own salvation, I did not mean we should turn a blind eye to Christianity practiced by others. I only meant that whatever you see in them should not affect your relationship with Christ. I always joke that even Jesus couldn't get a perfect church, he had a thief and a suicidal thug rolled into one in the name of Judas. One out of twelve.

There are three reasons I believe why BOHS is seldom mentioned:
1. Cessationism
2. Bad publicity
3. Ignorance

CESSATIONISM
This is a belief that the spiritual gifts ceased to be operational with the death of the apostles. It is believed that the gifts were to aid the church before the NT was penned and after this happened, the tongues became unnecessary, they expired. Evidence of this is;
(A) Observed diminishing of the gifts after the first century
(B) some scriptures that appear to suggest so. The foundational scripture for this?

1Corinthians 13:8-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease;as for knowledge, it will pass away.9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.


The verse insists the gifts are temporal; they will cease at some point when the 'perfect' comes.

 The Cessationists claim that the 'perfect' means New Testament. The last book of NT, Revelation was penned between 69-96AD. All books were in circulation by the turn of the first century. By 150AD they had started compiling them and had a good idea what should be canonical and what shouldn't.

This position is quite popular among non-Pentecostals and over the entire Christian history . It is how they excuse absence of the giftings. But to me, it borders on fatalism; you wake up and read about gifts and crazy stuff but you can't see the same in you. You conclude they were not meant for you. Case closed 8)

I don't buy it because there is zero proof that the 'perfect' is the NT. That's a wild wild convenient speculation. And in any case, some of the giftings had nothing to do with scriptures. For instance healing. I keep on asking cessationists whether demons stopped possessing believers as soon as Revelation was penned, and what they would do if the ran into demoniac.

This teaching is responsible for the widespread ignorance of the BOHS. Why talk much about stuff that is 'irrelevant' for you?

2. BAD PUBLICITY
From Pentecost, BOHS has been abused and it was a major reason for 1 Corinthians epistle; to correct the excesses. Some guys take extreme position and ignore it all together. Like I sai, I believe the solution to abUSE is proper USE not disUSE

3. IGNORANCE
Just plain old i gnorance. BOHS is one thing you can sleep through if you are ignorant
Acts 19:1-6King James Version (KJV)
19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


Note these guys were believers and they had never heard nothing. They received immediately upon hearing Nd believing.

I sometimes think this ignorance is inspired by the devil because he knows the implication of BOHS.


Every time I look at Luke 24 and Acts 1-2, how Jesus suspended the Great Commission till BOHS, I get convinced that BOHS is a necessity and not a.....not reserve for the Christian nerds.

ACTS 18: 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline mya88

  • Moderator
  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 399
  • Reputation: 2095
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2015, 10:06:23 PM »
http://biblehub.com/hebrews/4.htm
DB

Thank you for this site. Its turning out to be quite a useful tool in comparing scripture readings quickly.
"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2015, 07:02:31 AM »
vooke

I have heard of speaking in tongued and praying in tongues. I always assumed the two were the same thing and I  haven't seen any significant distinction among-st the two. Why else would some one be speaking in tongues if they aren't praying....since this is a gift of self...to intercede to God on your behalf. I have also seen pastors who as they pray in tongues, they get a message from God and say it in plain English to whomever the message is for.

I never had questions of these kind before when it pertains to pastors especially those who are really called...... But reading Corinthians awakened me to the fact that anyone can have these gifts if they desire and ask for them.... but before the gift there must be BOHS. So why not empower people to pray for that BOHS so that they don't constantly need pastors or prophets to pray fr them?
Hi mya,
I believe pastors/ministers are leaders, they teach you the word, how to pray, fast, evangelize and so forth. But this if not. He led can lead to DEPENDENCE, where members can't function without the pastors. Taken to extreme, you find cultish behavior here where a pastor controls just about every important part of a member's life.

So my job should to teach you how to DIY. But at the same time we must appreciate that BOHS was never meant to usurp a pastor's spiritual authority or even dispense with the need for corporate prayer or intercession. In Acts, long after BOHS, you will find the church praying for others. For instance,

Acts 12:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.


Or even Paul requesting prayers for him

Ephesians 6:18-19 King James Version (KJV)
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,


A pastor should be the happiest when every member has received power so they can be witnesses and have victorious lives. The old adage that a flock of sheep led by a lion can  conquer a pack of lions led by a sheep is true. A church more often than not can only rise as far as its pastor. So a pastor has a huge responsibility to get the best and the most out of each believer's life. But at the same time,  believer has a job to study scriptures for themselves and not just depend on the pastor. Arrange for your own private fasts, prayer, devotion, bible study, interrogate your pastor's sermons too like the Bereans- Acts 17:11. The times when scriptures were in the hands of a few are long gone. this makes you more responsible for your beliefs.

Am glad you appreciate the availability of BOHS. Even among Pentecostals, there is a funny belief that only pastors should be sailing in the gifts. This is far from the truth. On Pentecost, 120 received the baptism. All the recorded BOHS instances after that show normal believers walking in it. Then in 1 Cor Paul addresses an entire church suggesting the gifts were operational in all and not just leadership.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2015, 07:35:08 AM »
I will try my best to improve. Am glad this issue has really caught your attention. Please don't let it die like that as soon as something 'more interesting' comes along

Quote
I however get bore to sleep by endless rants about religion and what denomination does what.
I think debating doctrines is healthy. But of course it can get out of hand, minister more division than anything. My foundation is simple; anything I can't support from scriptures I should discard it asap. So am continuously examining my beliefs to see if they conform to scriptures. of course I can't examine my belief in a vacuum, I also look at other beliefs on the same subject.

Quote
I like that.
Denominationalism has its pros and cons.
Any group of people meeting regularly daring faith will eventually develop some doctrines or their peculiar way of understanding scriptures. This uniformity helps in bonding and stability. I mean you can't be waking up today believing  X and the next day you believe Y.
The cons is the conformity may actually blind you to the truth, because all you know is your denomination.

So I don't recommend dogmatism, a sort of my-denomination-is-right-and-yours-is wrong. Go to any church, learn their doctrines but keep an open mind knowing you will be answerable to God ALONE. Am a Pentecostal, I believe in some strands of Calvinism, others I don't, I have serious reservations on prosperity gospel, tithing...

When joining a church, I think you should have some minimums. I'd recommend this to anyone;
1.They must elevate scripture as their sole authority. And they must not just say so, they must act so.
2. Their Christology, who Christ be, he is God, uncreated, eternal.....
3. They MUST teach grace, salvation PURELY by Grace. Grace+works is a red flag
4. They Should be continuationist as far as BOHS is concerned.
5. They must be passionate about evangelism, reaching out
6.  The reverence for their pastor/leader should be 'moderate'; they are men not mediators between you and God

Quote
Interesting.
Something is lying in plain sight and we can't see it. But the cessationist movement which dominated Christianity since Reformation may be to blame. Here you can read all about Holy Spirit but at the back of your mind you think, 'this is not for me'. I really salute your curiosity. I dare say only God can arouse it.

Quote
ACTS 18: 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Agreed. The gift are as relevant as ever.
As a caution, please note there is something spectacular about them, something readily discernible with your 5 senses unlike say , forgiveness of sins. Look at this scripture



Jesus is brought a paralytic and before healing him he forgives his sins. Nobody can see forgiven sins so it may be hard to believe he had actually forgiven him. He then states that forgiveness of sins is easier than healing and if he had done the former, the latter was no big deal. He healed him as well.

Point is the miraculous are spectacular. So they are magnets. You will see fake tongues, prophecies, healings and so forth. Even when they are genuine, believers may be distracted by these. BOHS is not an end to itself, it is a means to living a victorious life. That's something I'd emphasize
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline mya88

  • Moderator
  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 399
  • Reputation: 2095
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2015, 05:15:49 PM »
Quote
Point is the miraculous are spectacular. So they are magnets. You will see fake tongues, prophecies, healings and so forth. Even when they are genuine, believers may be distracted by these. BOHS is not an end to itself, it is a means to living a victorious life. That's something I'd emphasize

To receive this infilling means that we can receive both the fruits of the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:22) (such as joy, peace, and self-control) as well as the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:7-10)(such as miracles, healings, and supernatural impartations of wisdom and knowledge)

Jesus Heals a Paralytic
Quote
"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2015, 05:58:12 PM »
Hi mya88,
It's been a while since I ran into somebody genuinely enquiring into BOHS. May the Lord richly reward you. He is a rewarded of those who diligently seek him- Heb 11:6. And I think the difference between Christians, effective Christians is how we differ in 'diligence'. Psalms 42:1 , as the dear panteth after the brook. That should be our portion.

Now, and am not preaching to you but challenging both of us, how much time do you spend with God in a day, time set apart be it prayer, bible study, praising? I think the most precious treasure under the sun is time, and as Jesus said, our hearts are where our treasures be. Whatever consumes most of my time, that's my treasure. Of course we got work, families and resting but I believe a true measure of a diligent God chaser is the amount they SACRIFICE to be with God. I fail badly so help me God. Sometimes I can watch 3 soccer matches in a row, buy my Empress some expensive junk impromptu, and then come Sunday, here I am haggling with God how much to give, and how I badly want to go home and 'rest'....am a work in progress I can tell you. Far from complete. Very far. In fact when I check out, I want my epitaph to read, 'End of Construction....thank you for your Patience'

Grace+ works.
Grace is a topic on its own and much has been written about it but it basically means UNMERITED. We are saved purely on God's expense. We don't deserve it. We never earned it. It is a 100% FREE gift. We don't wash us, clean up and then approach God, we come as we be. That's Grace.

Grace+works on the other hand tells you that over and above what Christ did for us at the cross, man needs to do something to be saved/safe. This is the message of grace+works. It appears harmless but what in PRACTICE it means is you are constantly trying to earn your salvation. Believers under a grace+works teaching are in constant fear of missing heaven/eternity. There is no assurance. This fear is used by the church to control them. The 'something' could be anything; Sabbath keeping for SDAs, door to door preaching for Jehovah's witnesses,submitting to particular teachings or a authority,sleeping with the pastor....anything...what is clear is, that 'something' always stands out as the identifying mark of any denomination/sect.


About the paralytic
You raise an important point. He was forgiven long before he aksd for it. Forgiveness was more important than healing. My focus was on the reaction of those around. Forgiveness startled them, they did not believe it and thought Jesus was blspheming until he healed him as well. The physical evidence impressed their senses more than the forgiveness reached their hearts. The miraculous are physically more spectacular
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline mya88

  • Moderator
  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 399
  • Reputation: 2095
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2015, 03:04:31 PM »
Hi mya88,
It's been a while since I ran into somebody genuinely enquiring into BOHS. May the Lord richly reward you. He is a rewarded of those who diligently seek him- Heb 11:6. And I think the difference between Christians, effective Christians is how we differ in 'diligence'. Psalms 42:1 , as the dear panteth after the brook. That should be our portion.

Now, and am not preaching to you but challenging both of us, how much time do you spend with God in a day, time set apart be it prayer, bible study, praising? I think the most precious treasure under the sun is time, and as Jesus said, our hearts are where our treasures be. Whatever consumes most of my time, that's my treasure. Of course we got work, families and resting but I believe a true measure of a diligent God chaser is the amount they SACRIFICE to be with God. I fail badly so help me God. Sometimes I can watch 3 soccer matches in a row, buy my Empress some expensive junk impromptu, and then come Sunday, here I am haggling with God how much to give, and how I badly want to go home and 'rest'....am a work in progress I can tell you. Far from complete. Very far. In fact when I check out, I want my epitaph to read, 'End of Construction....thank you for your Patience'


Quote
Grace+ works.
Grace is a topic on its own and much has been written about it but it basically means UNMERITED. We are saved purely on God's expense. We don't deserve it. We never earned it. It is a 100% FREE gift. We don't wash us, clean up and then approach God, we come as we be. That's Grace.

Grace+works on the other hand tells you that over and above what Christ did for us at the cross, man needs to do something to be saved/safe. This is the message of grace+works. It appears harmless but what in PRACTICE it means is you are constantly trying to earn your salvation. Believers under a grace+works teaching are in constant fear of missing heaven/eternity. There is no assurance. This fear is used by the church to control them. The 'something' could be anything; Sabbath keeping for SDAs, door to door preaching for Jehovah's witnesses,submitting to particular teachings or a authority,sleeping with the pastor....anything...what is clear is, that 'something' always stands out as the identifying mark of any denomination/sect.
"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline Bella

  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 245
  • Reputation: 2409
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2015, 12:12:53 AM »
I have enjoyed the thread but I must post on the question of works. Why do protestants demonise them? I open my new testament and every where Jesus opens his mouth, there is a whole stream of "works" flowing from his moth, lol. :)

Faith without works is dead. And faith without Love is utterly useless. Thats not something made up by SDAs, JWs or anyone. Giving people a false assurance that they are saved no matter what (the OSAS-Once saved Always saved, belief) just because they made a certain decision once,  is in my view,  no better than what prosperity Gospel preachers do. The Bible guarantees no one that they somehow lose their free will once they answer an altar call. That their ability to say "no" to God today disappears just because they said "Yes" yesterday. That happens after death, when we leave this world of choices and the ability to determine our eternal fate, but not a moment before. Until death, we remain as free as Adam was in the garden (when he was perfect) to reject God, and being a Christian never takes that away from us. Which is why Paul was taking care to run his race diligently lest after preaching to others, he himself may be found unworthy of the prize for which he ran. If he, of all people, did not have that assurance, how can christians give themselves this assurance of their own accord?

We are not saved by the works of the Torah, sure. That merely pointed to the way, it was not the way. But this does not mean that all we are required to do is believe. We still must love, out of our own love for Christ and keep from imorality, and grace--not our own inherent "power" which is non-existent--is what makes this possible. Jesus said many times that people would be sent away in the judgment for failure to do what people call "works" like refusing selfishly to help the hungry or those in need that God sends our way; He made our own forgiveness conditional on how well we ourselves forgive others; He warned of serious consequences for burrying and refusing to use the talents God has given us and told us bluntly that unless our righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees who diligently followed the Torah, we could not be saved. The Bible says that those who persevere to the end will be saved and the apostle Paul lists sins that keep one out of heaven. Moreover, he teaches no amount of faith is of ANY value without LOVE which is what matters above all. So the idea that all one needs to do is just match the devils (mere belief) once in their lives to be saved is unsupportable in the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. Jesus certainly expects a whole lot more from those who claim him as Lord than mere belief and he is not shy about tieing in their eternal fate to this expectation.

While it is certainly true that no one can earn even one iota of their salvation, believers in sola fide also go the other extreme and confuse freedom with power. But they forget that even freedom itself is a totally free and unmerited gift, as is our very existence, creation itself. There is nothing we do or have or are that is not a completely free gift. We are creatures. Of our own being, we are truly nothingness itself that Gods power has turned into something. The use of these gifts does not take away from the fact that they are always free gifts. That is why, no matter what we think we give to God or give for his sake, it will alwas be impossible to match or outgive God. Whatever we give and the very ability and opportunity to give, are all his gifts! Always. Some imagine that salvation being a relationship between two free wills--the divine and the human--and therefore a matter of co-operation, submission and CHOICE at all times--is somehow a denial of the power of God or somehow a belief in the power of the human to save himself. But nothing could be farther from the truth.

To believe that one can do anything, even the act of choosing God, or even believing in Jesus except by the power of God himself, which comes to us in the form of the free gift of grace, is an old heresy rejected by the early church long ago. Its not new. But to reject this false belief by going the other extreme that nothing is required from the human, as if he is a robot, and not a spirit, a child of God, is equally untrue.

Salvation is the sharing of the very life of God by humans, an adoption, the REAL indwelling of the Trinity--an intimate communion with God--in the heart of the believer. No one can buy the "right" to share in God's very life. This is not something anyone can give to himself by performing any action whatsoever. It can only be accepted, appreciated, and co-operated with. But neither does this life impose itself on the soul. God is no rapist. When you tell him you are no longer interested, he will leave. Of course he will never cease trying to win you back, But neither will he ignore the freedom he himself has guaranteed you in this life either.  The Bible says nothing can separate us from Gods love. However evil we are, Gods love is always knocking. It never grows tired. But love must be accepted for it to transform the person. Indeed, that gift of life which begins as a seedling once a person makes his profession of faith, requires nurturing, watering, indeed protection and not hindrance, in this life, to grow as Jesus parable of the seed shows, and if it is not thwarted, it will grow to be full and bear much fruit. But if thwarted or neglected, it will die.

Salvation is not a legal decree where God pretends he doesnt "see" your sins because supposedly he has punished Jesus on your behalf. Jesus' death as a sacrifice (and a sacrifice is not the same thing as a punishment) literally did the impossible and earned the grace by merit of love, one perfect act of love is answered by another, two divine persons, and God pours his love on Jesus and all those united to him via his humanity, which is all human beings. It is that grace that transforms all those who open the doors of their hearts into partakers of the divine life, adoption as God's own children, through union with Jesus, the only-begotten one. Indeed, it will transform even the fallen world into a new creation, on the last day, much as humans are born with a new life in Jesus, simply by virtue of Jesus making himself a citizen of it.

Our sin is not so great that it cannot be overcome so that we despair about our weaknesses and come up with a doctrine that we are immune from the responsibilities that accompany the priviledge of being creatures of free will, something more than animals. Our iniquity is not more powerful than God's love, and God can transform in actuality--not just pretend by covering our sin over with a blanket but not actually removing--and wash us and fill us with his own holiness. We just have to be OPEN to this, and yes, the ability to be open is, at all times, availed to all of us already as a free gift. Even to those who have never been Christian. Thats why they are able to become Christrian eventually. Why fear then, if Gods help is guaranteed? Thats like when Peter forgot to look at Jesus and started staring at the storm, and therefore forgot to rely on the divine help of Jesus, or even to ask for it, then it was just him and the storm, so the divine help though present did not prevent him from sinking. When he remembered (again, that rememberance is a gift itself, as we cant remind ourselves to seek God if left to our own devices) he did seek the help and found it ready, available. It is not different with salvation. The power is always Gods, but coperation, openness on our part, remain a factor throughout.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2015, 08:03:19 AM »
Kadame,
Faith ALONE saves, but it produces works. It is not these works which save, they are just a product of the faith
This formula
FAITH+WORKS= SALVATION
It subtracts from the sufficiency of the cross

This is IT
FAITH=SALVATION+WORKS

This is what sets Christianity apart from ALL religions
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Bella

  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 245
  • Reputation: 2409
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2015, 08:26:08 AM »
Kadame,
Faith ALONE saves, but it produces works. It is not these works which save, they are just a product of the faith
This formula
FAITH+WORKS= SALVATION
It subtracts from the sufficiency of the cross

This is IT
FAITH=SALVATION+WORKS

This is what sets Christianity apart from ALL religions
vooke, with due respect, I must vigorously disagree. That formula directly contradicts a plain assertion in the Bible. In fact, the only time the words "faith" and "alone" appear together is when the Bible is directly rejecting a salvation formula of Faith alone leading to salvation. If you said: GRACE ALONE= SALVATION, then I would agree. But FAITH alone? No. Even Devils have faith and it did not produce anything good. Simply knowing the truth is not enough. But sometimes I wonder if protestants actually MEAN grace when they speak of faith? How would you distinguish grace from faith, for example, just so we know we are not actually disagreeing but just using different terminology?

The New Testament is rife with descriptions of judgment that has people being left out of heaven for committing evil. The only time faith is vigorously asserted at the expense of works is Romans which refers to works of the Torah/Law, not merely works of Love. Otherwise, if FAITH ALONE was the slavation formula, then Jesus was lying about what would happen on Judgmenmt when people would be sent away , NOT simply for not believing, but for failure to do GOOD like sending away the hungry when you had enough to feed them.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/James%202:24
Quote

Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2015, 09:04:13 AM »
vooke, with due respect, I must vigorously disagree. That formula directly contradicts a plain assertion in the Bible. In fact, the only time the words "faith" and "alone" appear together is when the Bible is directly rejecting a salvation formula of Faith alone leading to salvation. If you said: GRACE ALONE= SALVATION, then I would agree. But FAITH alone? No. Even Devils have faith and it did not produce anything good. Simply knowing the truth is not enough. But sometimes I wonder if protestants actually MEAN grace when they speak of faith? How would you distinguish grace from faith, for example, just so we know we are not actually disagreeing but just using different terminology?

The New Testament is rife with descriptions of judgment that has people being left out of heaven for committing evil. The only time faith is vigorously asserted at the expense of works is Romans which refers to works of the Torah/Law, not merely works of Love. Otherwise, if FAITH ALONE was the slavation formula, then Jesus was lying about what would happen on Judgmenmt when people would be sent away , NOT simply for not believing, but for failure to do GOOD like sending away the hungry when you had enough to feed them.


Kadame,
It is OK to differ.
Faith and Grace are different but related concepts. Faith is man's response to what God has done, belief, and Grace is what God has done; reaching out to fallen man.

Grace is accessed by faith. Christ died but it is 'whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but has everlasting life' not all humanity. GRACE is God offering His Son, Faith is believing in His son.

So may be I should have clarified when I said faith alone saves. I have removed the translations of James 2:24 that you shared because am trying to make my post as short. I hope and pray you don't mind.

The devils don't have faith, they have knowledge of who God is, they rebelled against Him and as such they stand condemned. They don't have any means of getting back to God, not repentance, they are ALREADY judged, just awaiting the lake of fire. Think of a death row convict awaiting the electric chair after exhausting all avenues of appeal. Am not saying they appealed :)

You make hasty generalities about Romans and faith. The epistle lays foundational doctrines of Christianity and it appeals to both Gentiles and Jews. And no, it is not the 'only time'. Faith minus works is a thread that runs through ALL Pauline epistles. Makes interesting reading because he wrote primarily for Gentiles like me and you.

I don't know what comes to your mind when Law is mentioned but in Romans, Paul really puts it in its place. He even reminds us about LOVE, the greatest commandment right there in Romans. Now, this is a lengthy topic and if you don't mind, I will proceed and support EVERY statement I make with scriptures henceforth.

James 2:24 simply reiterates what I just said; FAITH produces WORKS and salvation. Please read the entire chapter 2. Abraham and Rahab are given as examples. Abraham was commanded to offer Isaac. His faith led him to do it till God stopped him. Rahab, she believed the spies and knew they would bring down the city. Then out of that, she received the spies and was saved.

There is a metaphor Jesus gave of the vine and branches. A believer grafted to Christ MUST produce fruit. But the fruit don't attach him to the vine, it is a product of his attachment/relationship with Christ.

I believe sinners will be judged by God, especially willful sinning AFTER coming to his knowledge. This is perfectly captured in Hebrews 6
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Bella

  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 245
  • Reputation: 2409
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2015, 10:15:49 AM »
vooke, about your last statement: willful sinning after relationship with Jesus and judgment. I dont understand. If they will be judged for willful sinning, what are the consequences?

My point is that a person still can put aside the gift of God even after accepting it, there is no guarantee that one cannot reject Jesus because one already accepted him. Free will is not a one time thing and you are done. God never imposes and Paul is constantly telling believers to strive for their crown because it is apparently not guaranteed, to him or them, because he alludes to the possibility of losing it. Free will does not disappear, but faith can die if the person does not nurture it by remaining in relationship with Jesus and simply assumes that one decision was enough. One must persevere to the end, and do all the things Jesus said. Jesus spoke about more than belief. He also said, one must be baptized, eat his flesh, not turn away the needy, love, forgive others etc in order to be accepted by him in heaven...in order to receive mercy/forgiveness... in order to be part of his kingdom etc.

So one must believe AND love, and love is the most important, the belief is just the door. Just one part of that formulae is not enough. For example, when he says that he will say "Enter into the home of my father", because the person fed/clothed him/gave him to drink, he is not saying that this is ALL the person must do. If I were to take this verse alone, I would determine that all I need to do is feed the hungry to be saved and dismiss John 3:16, but both are equally true. We must believe, we must love. Belief is like you said a response, but to me it is just the FIRST response. We need to continually respond to God when he meets us in our daily lives, not just once when he asks us to be christian. The "whatsoever you do to others, you do to me" teaching demonstrates one of the ways in which God comes to us and we reject him.

Yes, about Romans. Paul spoke to gentiles indeed, but this does not mean christian gentiles were oblivious to the foundations of christianity in the old covenant or to the old testament books/faith. The law refers to the law of Moses, is my belief, as this is what it is continuously called in the new testament. But there is a higher "law", and this is love and the fulfilment of the old law which was mostly a bunch of rituals devoid of love. Love is above all, and love is what Jesus asks us to do when he says, forgive, give etc. Paul himself counts faith as nothing without Love.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2015, 12:43:02 PM »
vooke, about your last statement: willful sinning after relationship with Jesus and judgment. I dont understand. If they will be judged for willful sinning, what are the consequences?

I meant in as many words rebellion just like in Eden. You know too well what is expected of you and you choose to go against that. The consequences are eternal damnation

Quote
My point is that a person still can put aside the gift of God even after accepting it, there is no guarantee that one cannot reject Jesus because one already accepted him. Free will is not a one time thing and you are done. God never imposes and Paul is constantly telling believers to strive for their crown because it is apparently not guaranteed, to him or them, because he alludes to the possibility of losing it. Free will does not disappear, but faith can die if the person does not nurture it by remaining in relationship with Jesus and simply assumes that one decision was enough. One must persevere to the end, and do all the things Jesus said.
I agree. Nobody can snatch you out of Jesus' hands,,but you can walk away from all that

Quote
Jesus spoke about more than belief. He also said, one must be baptized, eat his flesh, not turn away the needy, love, forgive others etc in order to be accepted by him in heaven...in order to receive mercy/forgiveness... in order to be part of his kingdom etc.
Yes I agree Jesus taught a lot. But one should be careful like I told Nuff Sed in reading His message. Severally he spoke to Jews still under the law. He kept the Jewish feasts, sabbath, was circumcised,he told a healed leper to offer a sacrifice, Pharisees to CONTINUE tithing, and Jews to listen Pharisees teaching Moses but not to follow their lifestyles....then at most of the times they were universally applicable.

Concerning justice and mercy, he wondered how the very professors of the Law would miss these big concepts staring at them while they meticulously tithed milligrams of spices

Quote
So one must believe AND love, and love is the most important, the belief is just the door. Just one part of that formulae is not enough. For example, when he says that he will say "Enter into the home of my father", because the person fed/clothed him/gave him to drink, he is not saying that this is ALL the person must do. If I were to take this verse alone, I would determine that all I need to do is feed the hungry to be saved and dismiss John 3:16, but both are equally true. We must believe, we must love. Belief is like you said a response, but to me it is just the FIRST response. We need to continually respond to God when he meets us in our daily lives, not just once when he asks us to be christian. The "whatsoever you do to others, you do to me" teaching demonstrates one of the ways in which God comes to us and we reject him.
Am not discounting the value of all those good things, love and all, but they don't EARN you salvation, faith in Christ does.

Acts 10. Cornelius was a good guy by all counts, he was devout, loving and giving alms Mother Theresa grade, well spoken of by Jewry yet an angel appears to him and tells him to send for Peter who will tell him what to do. A good devout man needing the gospel? That blew me away.

No amount of love can save you. Christ did not merely teach us how to love, he could have done that without dying you know. It is His righteousness that is IMPUTED on us upon believing that makes us acceptable before God.

Romans 3:21-22 (KJV)
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Philippians 3:9 (KJV)
I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith


Quote
Yes, about Romans. Paul spoke to gentiles indeed, but this does not mean christian gentiles were oblivious to the foundations of christianity in the old covenant or to the old testament books/faith. The law refers to the law of Moses, is my belief, as this is what it is continuously called in the new testament.
Romans was written to men who were not UNDER the law in the first place. So the works spoken there are not necessarily Mosaic legalism

Quote
But there is a higher "law", and this is love and the fulfilment of the old law which was mostly a bunch of rituals devoid of love. Love is above all, and love is what Jesus asks us to do when he says, forgive, give etc. Paul himself counts faith as nothing without Love.

I take you back to Cornelius. He loved men, he loved God, he was loved by Jews. He was a good guy. His prayers reached heaven. He was heard. I don't discount the value of love, just that no amount of love can save a man. If it could, I'd struggle to find any relevance in the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ my Lord and my God

Paul does not count faith without love as nothing. Please note a few things;
1 Corinthians 13:2-3 (KJV)
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.


1. It is not the miracle, faith, prophecy, wisdom that is nothing without love but himself, further expressed as 'it profiteth me nothing'

2. The faith in context here is the faith for the miraculous which is the subject not the saving faith with which a sinner reaches out to God. He is saying 'though I could do great miracles like moving mountains'. Makes much sense since he is in the middle of spiritual gifts discourse

3. Much as Paul talks hypothetically, some things stand out; good deeds and sacrifice, the commonest indicators of love among men while beneficial to others are utterly unprofitable to the doer. This is no excuse to shun charity and sacrifice of course but to understand the same ought to be exercised out of love. That's a sermon for one Lord's Day 8)
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Bella

  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 245
  • Reputation: 2409
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2015, 01:25:52 PM »
vooke, considering what you said in the first two points on the possibility of walking away from Christ, I don't think you and I fundamentally disagree. We both affirm freedom in accepting/rejecting the gift of God, and also the fact that this is in fact a gift...not something possible for any human to earn. I think we just go about explaining that differently, or place different emphases on different aspects. To clarify, I DON'T believe any one earns or can earn grace/salvation. Because grace is the very life of God poured into our souls. The only one who "earned" this was Jesus by giving a perfect act of love (sacrifice) to the father in the place of all humans. We gain this life in our souls only through uniting with Jesus, not on our own by any means, thats why the church is called the very body of Christ. "I am the vine, you are the branches" Apart from Christ, we can do nothing! To that extent, I don't believe our views differ all that much as I had assumed froom the initial post on works. It is Christ who carries us, forgives us, feeds us, sanctifies us, raises us up from death, and glorifies us, not we ourselves so yes 100% true.

Where I disagree is the issue of the Gospels. To me, they are FOUNDATIONAL. Jesus words and life. to everything else, be it in the new or old testament. I dont dismiss anything Jesus said regarding the kingdom of God, heaven, or judgment, or love since these are not jewish, but universal, and doing that would be dangerous. Jesus did not just come to teach Jews and die for gentiles, he did both for both and his teachings far surpass mere reiteration of the old covenant. He is the centre, his words shape the interpretation of ALL others, be they prophets or apostles, not the other way around. When he referred to the law, it was clear, but he did far more than teach on the old covenant. The bulk of his teaching is love...he is the fullness of revelation. He brought a new kingdom and was not simply reiterating old prophets.

Besides that, I agree with all you said in the last post regarding slavation.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2015, 01:32:00 PM »
vooke, considering what you said in the first two points on the possibility of walking away from Christ, I don't think you and I fundamentally disagree. We both affirm freedom in accepting/rejecting the gift of God, and also the fact that this is in fact a gift...not something possible for any human to earn. I think we just go about explaining that differently, or place different emphases on different aspects. To clarify, I DON'T believe any one earns or can earn grace/salvation. Because grace is the very life of God poured into our souls. The only one who "earned" this was Jesus by giving a perfect act of love (sacrifice) to the father in the place of all humans. We gain this life in our souls only through uniting with Jesus, not on our own by any means, thats why the church is called the very body of Christ. Apart from Christ, we can do nothing! To that extent, I don't believe our views differ all that much as I had assumed froom the initial post on works. It is Christ who carries us, forgives us, feeds us, sanctifies us, raises us up from death, and glorifies us, not we ourselves so yes 100% true.

Kadame,
It is well.
The question of whether a Christian can end up in hell has been hotly debated over the years. Calvinism says you can't, OSAS, once-saved-always-saved thing. Then we have conditional salvation; you are saved and you remain saved if you remain in faith. Very compelling arguments have been advanced by both sides. I have been on both sides of the fence and after much searching, I think one can lose his reward, but at the same time, one can know now whether they have any reward. That's why I boldy say am vooke and am born again and Jesus is Lord...blessed assurance


On to other matters.
Am very particular about church attendance. I get around 10 here and around twice that much on .com. On good days,there I can go up to 80.So you can imagine this thread hitting over 300 and the only difference is we had Holy Ghost right here. That's what I meant by dunamis. Sema amen!   O:-)
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Bella

  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 245
  • Reputation: 2409
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2015, 03:48:14 PM »
vooke, considering what you said in the first two points on the possibility of walking away from Christ, I don't think you and I fundamentally disagree. We both affirm freedom in accepting/rejecting the gift of God, and also the fact that this is in fact a gift...not something possible for any human to earn. I think we just go about explaining that differently, or place different emphases on different aspects. To clarify, I DON'T believe any one earns or can earn grace/salvation. Because grace is the very life of God poured into our souls. The only one who "earned" this was Jesus by giving a perfect act of love (sacrifice) to the father in the place of all humans. We gain this life in our souls only through uniting with Jesus, not on our own by any means, thats why the church is called the very body of Christ. Apart from Christ, we can do nothing! To that extent, I don't believe our views differ all that much as I had assumed froom the initial post on works. It is Christ who carries us, forgives us, feeds us, sanctifies us, raises us up from death, and glorifies us, not we ourselves so yes 100% true.

Kadame,
It is well.
The question of whether a Christian can end up in hell has been hotly debated over the years. Calvinism says you can't, OSAS, once-saved-always-saved thing. Then we have conditional salvation; you are saved and you remain saved if you remain in faith. Very compelling arguments have been advanced by both sides. I have been on both sides of the fence and after much searching, I think one can lose his reward, but at the same time, one can know now whether they have any reward. That's why I boldy say am vooke and am born again and Jesus is Lord...blessed assurance


On to other matters.
Am very particular about church attendance. I get around 10 here and around twice that much on .com. On good days,there I can go up to 80.So you can imagine this thread hitting over 300 and the only difference is we had Holy Ghost right here. That's what I meant by dunamis. Sema amen!   O:-)
LOL! Weka mpesa hapa katithe katumwe pap! :)

I like how you have put that: Yes, one can lose his reward. However one can know now whether they have a reward to lose in the first place. :) Couldnt agree more.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline mya88

  • Moderator
  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 399
  • Reputation: 2095
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2015, 06:28:53 PM »

On to other matters.
Am very particular about church attendance. I get around 10 here and around twice that much on .com. On good days,there I can go up to 80.So you can imagine this thread hitting over 300 and the only difference is we had Holy Ghost right here. That's what I meant by dunamis. Sema amen!   O:-)
. eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.
"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline mya88

  • Moderator
  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 399
  • Reputation: 2095
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2015, 06:34:34 PM »


LOL! Weka mpesa hapa katithe katumwe pap! :)

I like how you have put that: Yes, one can lose his reward. However one can know now whether they have a reward to lose in the first place. :) Couldnt agree more.

"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2015, 07:33:53 PM »
vooke

That this thread has gotten extra attention just goes to show that most people have had the same questions or are at least curious about BOHS. That , I think is a good thing.

From reading about the three Christianity movements and their stance on BOHS, I think my beliefs are a mix of both the charismatic and third wave, although the third wave movement seems to be the most prominent.

All three do acknowledge BOHS in some form or another, and their differences to me seem not to matter that much. The Pentecostals however may be a bit snobbish or elitist.

Hi mya88,
I agree, BOHS and Holy Spirit are some of the most misunderstood aspects of God. The distinction between Pentecostals, Charismatics, new-Pentecostals, it escapes me. I would not know where to place myself

Quote
. eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.


The necessity of water baptism
Baptism is necessary because Jesus commanded it.
Matthew 28:19 (KJV)
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Water baptism is necessary because the disciples practiced it right from Pentecost.
Acts 2:38 (KJV)
 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost


Jesus went through it as well. This in itself is a weak reason for being baptized seeing he was also circumcised, kept Jewish feasts and sabbath and so forth, but it is worth studying. Immediately he came out of water, Holy Spirit came upon him and he 'officially' kicked off his public ministry. That is quite telling

Matthew 3:16 (KJV)
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


In fact, this is recorded by ALL the gospels- Mark 1:10,Luke 3:22 and John 1:32. This tells me the incidence was so significant that it was etched in their memories.

I feel like I should correct what am persuaded are erroneous teachings surrounding baptism
1. Baptism does not wash away sins.
Please read
Acts 2:38 (KJV) Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
It appears like Peter is saying REPENT,GET BAPTIZED so your sins may be forgiven and you may receive the gift of BOHS. But in Acts 10, Cornelius and his family received BOHS before baptism

2. Closely related to #1 baptism does not save
You won't miss heaven because you was not baptized
Ephesians 5:25-26 (KJV)
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Though baptism is equally a figure of cleansing, this verse is popularly misquoted to show that baptism cleanses and sanctifies. But note....'by the word'. It is the word of God that cleanses us not water. Water baptism at most makes you wet and cleaner if you was dirty not to mention messing your makeup 8)

3. Water baptism is a condition for BOHS
Again, a casual reading of Acts 2:38 suggests get BAPTIZED so you can receive BOHS. But in Acts 10, Cornelius received BOHS before water baptism. But I have seen people receiving BOHS right there in the pool. They go down and come up slain and have to be carried away speaking in tongues ( caution: this is my subjective experience)

If you notice, I haven't answered your question. WHY is this act necessary?
Baptism is a rite, an external declaration of the inner realities. A believer being born again dies to self and is raised anew. This happens upon believing and baptism reflects just that. Former/old mya88 goes down and up comes a new creature. This closely mirrors Jesus death, burial and resurrection in power.

This verse captures that;
Romans 6:3-4 (KJV)
 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


So baptism is a public confession of faith. I know kadame would differ but I believe ONLY grown ups should do it. Kids can't possibly confess a faith they can't comprehend. I also believe that it should be immersion as in apostolic times. This best captures the realities represented.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Bella

  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 245
  • Reputation: 2409
Re: Let's Pray
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2015, 07:44:25 PM »
Mya,

Interesting discussion. Incidentally, today marks a special "Holy Spirit" period in our church. The Sunday after this Sunday will be Pentecost and Yesterday (Thursday) was Ascension day. Catholics generally mark the nine days between these two days by praying to the Holy Spirit like the apostles did after acension when they were waiting for the "paraclete" or "consoler" as Jesus had promised them before he ascended. They were scared and alone and met in the upper room praying together and as you know, on the tenth day, the tongues of fire came! The Holy Spirit descended and they came out bold and preached and spoke in tongues, thus was born the church. I find it interesting that y'all should be discussing this just as I get ready to start my nine-day devotion to the Holy Spirit...actually, you've reminded me, I had forgotten. :D Here is what I will be praying for the next nine days, asking for the gifts of the Holy Spirit: https://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/pentecost/seven.htm I think I will ask, along with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, also the baptism, after your discussions.

As for catholic charismatics and others, I don't disbelieve the charismatics, or anyone with a unique or different way of praying than the usual. To me the better prayer is that which is effective, not that which follows any model. As to the church's attitude, I know the church embraces them. In fact, the Pope's official preacher is a serious member/leader in the movement and insists on the necessity of baptism of the Holy Spirit. See what he has to say here: https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/1028/Baptism_in_the_Holy_Spirit___Fr._Cantalamessa.html  I dont personally know any charismatics, but if I stumble onto their meetings, I will join. Long ago I did stubmle into one, but by then I was very biased against such things and just dismissed them as odd.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil