Let's Pray

[vooke]

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Good afternoon church,
Am sorry am late, Kenya Powerless can't fix some power lines in under 48 hours.

John 4:24 (KJV)
God is a Spirit:.....

I want to share with us on the subject of the Holy Spirit. This topic is so wide that I have seen dissertations on it, big books, there is a discipline of theology called Pneumatology which focuses on Holy Spirit. I will do my best to present the Word with all simplicity so help me God. Starting next week. Maximum 3 weeks.

There is so some serious misunderstanding about Holy Spirit. Is it an 'it','Him'? Is there anything like Holy Spirit? Are there other Spirits outside Holy Spirit? And so forth.

Today as I was meditating on Hebrews a rather persistent theme came up. First, note Hebrews was written specifically to Christians. Look at these verses closely;
Hebrews 2:1 (KJV)
Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

Hebrews 3:6 (KJV)
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Hebrew 3:12 (KJV)
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God

Hebrews 4:1 (KJV)
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it

In 2:1 there is a clear risk of losing what we have heard, in 3:6 we remain God's house if we hold on to the end,meaning letting go before means we are no longer God's house; in 3:12 there is a risk of departing from God, meaning you were with God in the first place; and in 4:1, there is a real risk of missing God's SABBATH/rest despite a clear opportunity being there.

The point is, it is not enough to make a confession of faith and to claim to be a Christian; walking with God is a MUST. Our relationship with God must not be a historical one, more like the guy who told his wife that like he assured her during their weddo 50 years ago, he still does no if anything changes he would let her know.

Judas was as close to Jesus as you can get. He finished very far away from Him. I will end by Paul;



Are you still a Christian?

Have a blessed Lord's Day as we worship the Word of Life (1 John 1:1)

[GeeMail]

http://biblehub.com/hebrews/4.htm

[vooke]

Thank you for attending to church. Let the Word richly Indwell you.

http://biblehub.com/hebrews/4.htm

[mya88]

The point is, it is not enough to make a confession of faith and to claim to be a Christian; walking with God is a MUST. Our relationship with God must not be a historical one, more like the guy who told his wife that like he assured her during their weddo 50 years ago, he still does no if anything changes he would let her know.

vooke

Could you please elaborate further what you mean by the above statement....and what has it all got to do with the holy spirit? I have been hearing about the holy spirit a lot lately in church ..... A great Ghanian Rev was around and he preached on it a lot...... The first scripture I read about the holy spirit is when Jesus was breaking bread with the disciples right before he departed..."and they were filled with the holy ghost, and started speaking in tongues." When Jesus departed, he said he would send us a helper, who I assume is the holy spirit/holy ghost. Who is the holy spirit and how would you know if you have had an encounter with him/her....Is it the same as speaking in tongues? What are these gifts of the holy spirit?

[vooke]

The point is, it is not enough to make a confession of faith and to claim to be a Christian; walking with God is a MUST. Our relationship with God must not be a historical one, more like the guy who told his wife that like he assured her during their weddo 50 years ago, he still does no if anything changes he would let her know.

vooke

Could you please elaborate further what you mean by the above statement....and what has it all got to do with the holy spirit? I have been hearing about the holy spirit a lot lately in church ..... A great Ghanian Rev was around and he preached on it a lot...... The first scripture I read about the holy spirit is when Jesus was breaking bread with the disciples right before he departed..."and they were filled with the holy ghost, and started speaking in tongues." When Jesus departed, he said he would send us a helper, who I assume is the holy spirit/holy ghost. Who is the holy spirit and how would you know if you have had an encounter with him/her....Is it the same as speaking in tongues? What are these gifts of the holy spirit?

Hi mya88,
Please note I mentioned Holy Spirit on passing. I was introducing the next sermon but We had the Nepal Earthquake and for that I postponed. Then the following Lord's Day I wasted my sleep watching Pacman and Money. Messed my weekend. I will share on it in due time hopefully coming Lord's Day.

I will try and answer your questions albeit not in as much details.

The reason I shared this sermon on the need to CONTINUE in Christ as opposed to a mere historical faith is because this is what Hebrews appear to exhort us to. As a believer, I become a Chriatian upon believing in Christ and confessing. But what next? Do we revert to the past life? No

Colossians 2:6-7 (ESV)
6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving


Now to your questions.
1. Who/what is Holy Spirit?
Holy Spirit is God Himself. Holy Ghost is archaic English for Holy Spirit. Ghost=Spirit

2. It takes Holy Spirit transform us upon believing (born of the Spirit-John 3:6, Titus 3:5-6).

3. Every believer received a deposit, a seal an assurance of his inheritance in Christ and that is Holy Spirit dwelling in them (2 Cor 1:22)

What #1 and #2 means is Holy Spirit is active in EVERY believer's life. In fact we re told our bodies are His Temple

4. Over and above this common and basic I dwelling of a Holy Spirit in every believer, there is something called Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is the equivalent of water baptism; water all over you. Not every believer is baptized. This is what happened on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2.

5. Baptism is accompanied by manifestation of the Spirit namely spiritual gifts. Speaking in tongues is the commonest manifestation

6. So technically speaking in tongues is not having Holy Spirit because we all have that as believers. Tongues are manifestation of a different dimension the so called baptism. The many gifts of the Spirit are listed in 1 Corinthians 12-14

7. How do you get baptized?
There is no formula, just ask Nd you shall receive. What I have noted both from scriptures and real life is ignorance of this means you may miss it completely.

Will share more in due time. I can share a small book on the same for you. Please study it prayerfully and let me know whAt you find
http://www.substancechurch.com/sites/default/files/files/SkepticsGuideToTongues.pdf

[mya88]

4. Over and above this common and basic I dwelling of a Holy Spirit in every believer, there is something called Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is the equivalent of water baptism; water all over you. Not every believer is baptized. This is what happened on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2

[vooke]

Hi mya88,
I believe we should not be ignorant of these powerful aspects of Christianity.
Like any other doctrine, it has some aberrations and some are so crazy, it makes the teaching repulsive. But this need not be the case.

Why do we need this baptism?
Please look at Acts 1 and 2. Luke was quite a meticulous historian, captured so many details. Jesus himself as he ascended he COMMANDED the disciples go out into all the nations preaching the good news. This is called the Great Commision. But before that, he told them to wait for the Promise (Luke 24:49,Acts 1:4), for POWER,DUNAMIS

So the Baptism of Holy Spirit (BOHS) is actually a promise from Jesus. It was so crucial that the disciples waited for it before going out preaching. This means a believer is ill-equipped to operate in their assignment without the baptism, without the Promise. Note the baptism does not make you a Christian, it just empowers you as a Christian.Acts 19:1-6 shows believers who had NEVER heard about it. Once they did, they received the baptism. In Acts, many believers received the baptism upon laying on of hands by the apostles but others (Acts 10) by just hearing the word. I don't think we should be ignorant of something that's so crucial for our lives as believers

Must believers speak in tongues if they are baptized?
This is a controversial topic among Pentecostals. Why?
1. In 1 Corinthians 12-14 the biggest chunk of scriptures devoted to spiritual gifts (these are manifestations of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Please study the 3 chapters) Paul appears to suggest that not ALL people speak in tongues,they may operate in other giftings.

2. In all the RECORDED instances of the BOHS starting with Pentecost, speaking in tongues happened. All cases without exception. Paul ranks the gift much lower under prophecy btw. So from these two facts, it appears tongues are the most BASIC, and commonest

the #1 and #2  have caused huge rift among Pentecostals. Some churches teach they are MANDATORY and are INITIL EVIDENCE of BOHS. You see the BOHS is very visible, I will see mya88 bUbbling in Mandarin or tongues of angels . In this camp, it is very easy to tell who has BOHS; they pray in tongues. But it also exerts immense pressure on the non-tongue speakers. They are made to feel small, sinners, stubborn....

Others believe they are not necessarily EVIDENCE of BOHS. these conservatives accommodate all. But the downside is, without physical proof of BOHS, one may claim to have been baptized without ever receiving it.

So both camps have their merits and demerits.

In my walk with Christ, I have discovered that the quickest way to receive the BOHS is not having 'powerful' MOGs lay hands on you ( which is OK) but rather, KNOWLEDGE and DESIRE. Learn all there is to about BOHS, and then aks the Father to baptize you. Don't fear, you won't go crazy and divorce your hubby the next day. You will be normal, only EMPOWERED.

The book I shared is a good starting point to learn about the gifts. It sort of demystifies it especially Tongues. Outside that book, I'd refer you to Acts especially 1&2 as well as the three 1Cor chapters (11-13)

As a child of God, this is your portion, it is yours for aksin. Tongues are very helpful in prayers which is one are we are all challenged. Your prayer life will never be the same.

Luke 11:13 (ESV)
 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!

Here is Peter explaining who can access the gift

[Bella]

The falling....Whatsup with that?

[vooke]

The falling....Whatsup with that?

That's interesting. I usually think these are details. Just like songs. Do we have any idea how they was singing back in the first century? Tempo, key.....no we don't yet we have exhortation to encourage each other with hymns and spiritual songs.

That said, personally, I discourage hunting for the tangible, visible signs; one may miss the big picture. But as usual, the flesh in US Is thrilled by ACTION...we are 'see then belief' more than 'believe then see' generation

As a caution, be very wary of what's not documented in the scriptures ; 'holy laughter' ,'gold dust annointing','gold teeth','falling',crazy dancing, spinning, howling....actually am skeptical of these...very skeptical

[mya88]

Vooke

Hi mya88,
I believe we should not be ignorant of these powerful aspects of Christianity.
Like any other doctrine, it has some aberrations and some are so crazy, it makes the teaching repulsive. But this need not be the case.

Why do we need this baptism?
Please look at Acts 1 and 2. Luke was quite a meticulous historian, captured so many details. Jesus himself as he ascended he COMMANDED the disciples go out into all the nations preaching the good news. This is called the Great Commision. But before that, he told them to wait for the Promise (Luke 24:49,Acts 1:4), for POWER,DUNAMIS

So the Baptism of Holy Spirit (BOHS) is actually a promise from Jesus. It was so crucial that the disciples waited for it before going out preaching. This means a believer is ill-equipped to operate in their assignment without the baptism, without the Promise. Note the baptism does not make you a Christian, it just empowers you as a Christian.Acts 19:1-6 shows believers who had NEVER heard about it. Once they did, they received the baptism. In Acts, many believers received the baptism upon laying on of hands by the apostles but others (Acts 10) by just hearing the word. I don't think we should be ignorant of something that's so crucial for our lives as believers

Must believers speak in tongues if they are baptized?
This is a controversial topic among Pentecostals. Why?
1. In 1 Corinthians 12-14 the biggest chunk of scriptures devoted to spiritual gifts (these are manifestations of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Please study the 3 chapters) Paul appears to suggest that not ALL people speak in tongues,they may operate in other giftings.

2. In all the RECORDED instances of the BOHS starting with Pentecost, speaking in tongues happened. All cases without exception. Paul ranks the gift much lower under prophecy btw. So from these two facts, it appears tongues are the most BASIC, and commonest

the #1 and #2  have caused huge rift among Pentecostals. Some churches teach they are MANDATORY and are INITIL EVIDENCE of BOHS. You see the BOHS is very visible, I will see mya88 bUbbling in Mandarin or tongues of angels . In this camp, it is very easy to tell who has BOHS; they pray in tongues. But it also exerts immense pressure on the non-tongue speakers. They are made to feel small, sinners, stubborn....

Others believe they are not necessarily EVIDENCE of BOHS. these conservatives accommodate all. But the downside is, without physical proof of BOHS, one may claim to have been baptized without ever receiving it.

So both camps have their merits and demerits.

In my walk with Christ, I have discovered that the quickest way to receive the BOHS is not having 'powerful' MOGs lay hands on you ( which is OK) but rather, KNOWLEDGE and DESIRE. Learn all there is to about BOHS, and then aks the Father to baptize you. Don't fear, you won't go crazy and divorce your hubby the next day. You will be normal, only EMPOWERED.

The book I shared is a good starting point to learn about the gifts. It sort of demystifies it especially Tongues. Outside that book, I'd refer you to Acts especially 1&2 as well as the three 1Cor chapters (11-13)

As a child of God, this is your portion, it is yours for aksin. Tongues are very helpful in prayers which is one are we are all challenged. Your prayer life will never be the same.

Luke 11:13 (ESV)
 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!

Here is Peter explaining who can access the gift

[vooke]

hi mya88,
Yaani you was born in 1988?

Kidding

DUNAMIS is the Greek word for POWER and from the same word we get our English word DYNAMO. Look at this verse
Acts 1:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The word for power here is DUNAMIS. You can study more about it here and I guess that's why these Pentecostal meetings and churches use the name. It is in connection with Pentecost.

About Pentecostals and sin. One excuses for Christians and sin is, 'nobody is perfect'. I would not go that far but here is my take.
1. The one church where Spiritual gifts are mentioned at length is Corinthians. Studying the two epistles shows extremely carnal people. Just about all wickedness was found there; schism, fornication, idolatry.... So while we should not entertain carnality, it does not appear like BOHS effectively deals it a blow. I believe it takes more than BOHS.

2. Closely related to 1 is I believe excitement with the visible manifestation of BOHS makes us lazy, a sort of ' Holy Spirit is working in me, I can still speak in tongues even if am sinning so what!' attitude. BOHS in Acts 10 happened to guys hearing the gospel on the FIRST day and they spoke in tongues. Surely maturity in Christianity is a lifelong journey. I got born again one day and the next day I went to pray, I discovered I was praying in tongues. This was even BEFORE I properly understood salvation.
Point is manifestation of these gifts is no proof of your Christianity. I think it is Galatians 5:22-23 that talks of the fruit of the Spirit....true maturity is manifesting these and it is something the Spirit should be working in us OVER TIME.

About the book, there are hundreds of books on the subject but in my opinion, this is the best I have come across so far. As you said, it is easy to read. And I tend to AGREE with the author on ALL points which is rare for me. So whatever you see there vooke vouches for it. And then the author is a missionary. I don't mind theology and Greek and all that, but I have discovered that the books I find most valuable are those by ministers, practical Christianity that is does it for me. I mean we can waste the whole day here discussing the origin of demons and the historicity of Satan, but I'd rather somebody who ran into a demoniac.

How do you know you have BOHS?
For me, it is simple; your BOHS should be accompanied by at least one gift. I don't believe tongues are mandatory but I greatly treasure them and I believe they are almost universal. The reason being they help us in prayer and we all need prayers. I don't want to tell believers they are not baptized simply because I can't SEE it.Please allow me to share a few verses on tongues and prayers

1Corinthians 14:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Romans 8:26-27 King James Version (KJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.


So in Corinthians we are told when speaking in tongues you are speaking to God, you are praying. Romans is one of the most curious verses ever. Says God helps in our weaknesses(infirmities) and specifically the Spirit makes intercessions because we don't know how to pray as we should. How does the Spirit help us? By praying THROUGH us. It will be mya's spirit praying not her mind but those prayers will be coming from the Spirit, from God and most importantly, it is prayers according to the will of God.

It is important to not just pray but to pray ACCORDING to the will of God. Because only prayers made according to the will of God are heard!

1 John 5:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Tongues really improve your prayer life. So much as I don't think it is a mandatory gift, it is one that everybody can greatly benefit from. Note the last Corinthians verse talking of praying with the spirit. Apart from prayerlife boost, your own spirit is strengthened
Jude 1:20King James Version (KJV)
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Something about these gifts. There is a paradox; on one hand we are told in Corinthians that it is the Spirit of God who distributes the gifts on one hand, but on the other hand we are exhorted to DESIRE, to COVET the gifts.
1 Corinthians 12:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

1 Corinthians 12:31 King James Version (KJV)
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
So whatever gift you have, you can ask for more. Paul teaches tongue speakers should PRAY thT they may interpret. Start coveting tongues

The reason I talked of BOHS not making you a Christian is important. It is because I have seen some believer looked down upon and basically being humiliated because they don't operate in any gift.  Remember with/without BOHS, we are still believers and NOBODY should gloat over you over a GIFT! I have seen pride really eating up people who manifest gifts. This is wrong

[mya88]

hi mya88,
Yaani you was born in 1988?

vooke
I am not that young, a bit older than that, 88 however played a defining moment in my young life.

2. Closely related to 1 is I believe excitement with the visible manifestation of BOHS makes us lazy, a sort of ' Holy Spirit is working in me, I can still speak in tongues even if am sinning so what!' attitude. BOHS in Acts 10 happened to guys hearing the gospel on the FIRST day and they spoke in tongues. Surely maturity in Christianity is a lifelong journey. I got born again one day and the next day I went to pray.

[vooke]

hi mya88,
Yaani you was born in 1988?

vooke
I am not that young, a bit older than that, 88 however played a defining moment in my young life.

2. Closely related to 1 is I believe excitement with the visible manifestation of BOHS makes us lazy, a sort of ' Holy Spirit is working in me, I can still speak in tongues even if am sinning so what!' attitude. BOHS in Acts 10 happened to guys hearing the gospel on the FIRST day and they spoke in tongues. Surely maturity in Christianity is a lifelong journey. I got born again one day and the next day I went to pray.

Hi mya88,
Am not trying to decipher your age, just trying to be funny and it is not easy


About the conduct of tongue speakers, I don't think they are more wicked than others, only they are more readily stand out. If you went to a packed church and came out, you'd probably notice the preacher, his cute wife and choir. But waslk into a tongues session and the loudest stands out. So you are like, 'and how comes he is speaking in tongues?'

Please look at this verse;
Romans 11:29 (ESV)
 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable
The context was Israel's covenant with God and the promises therein. But out of experience, I see this applying to spiritual gifts. They just don't vanish simply the moment you trip. A man of God may be fornicating and still preaching powerfully. All that God has built in your life won't disappear in a flash. And this is why some believers may persist in error. Some ministers live a lie for so long. But ultimately, you quench the Spirit and like Samson, you wake up one day and you are weak and all alone. Please focus on your own salvation and not others. Work out your own. BOHS is not a license to lasciviousness .

I think there are two reasons why there is much emphasis on this gift of tongues;
1. It was the commonest
2. It was the most abused
These two necessitated Paul to spend a disproportionate amount of time on it.
Note Paul is comparing tongues to prophecy, he measures the relative worth of each according to its value to the members of the church. Tongues without interpretation help/edify the speaker alone while prophecy edifies everyone. He even proposes that tongue speakers seek the gift of interpretation so others may gain from it. Interpreted tongues are as powerful as prophecy. Point is tongues are not exactly 'lower' than others.

About prayer. Am sorry I was not clear enough. What I mean is, There are many scriptures teaching us that God answers only what is in His will. If it is not, then He won't . I shared one of them. Jesus taught this as well. How do we know the Will of God? First is of course His Word. God won't go against His Word. For instance, He is against adultery. So a woman praying passionately for another woman's hubby won't be heard.

What that verse in Romans suggests is EVERYTHING we pray by the Spirit is the perfect will of God so it is bound to be answered. Our other prayers may/may not be according to his will. Let me aks. What have you been praying for over the last couple of days (apart from your meals)? Let's say a new job. But what is God's Will in this matter? See we have mya88 and God's will. Tongues are straight from the Spirit of God and He can't suffer you to pray contrary to Him because it would be wasteful.

About that statement, I believe it is derived from Acts 1:4. Jesus commanded the disciple to wait for the Promise. When the disciples push, he tells the. They shall receive Power/DUNAMIS and they shal be witnesses. Jesus held their witnessing till they received power. So obviously the Power is relevant for witnessing. You receive Power so you can be a stronger and bolder witness of Jesus here on earth.

[mya88]

Vooke

By far 1corinthians 14 has been the most helpful in understanding this BOHS.

1Corinthins 14: 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church

However, I noticed also that Love superseded all these gifts

[vooke]

Vooke

By far 1corinthians 14 has been the most helpful in understanding this BOHS.

1Corinthins 14: 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church

However, I noticed also that Love superseded all these gifts

There is a popular teaching among Pentecostals I have heard so often but from scriptures I just can't see it. It claims there are TWO types of tongues; praying in tongues and speaking in tongues. Praying is just that whereas speaking is uttering some prophetic words only in a different language. It further claims that when Paul discouraged speaking in tongues without interpretation, he was talking about the latter otherwise praying in tongues don't need interpretation. When I look at it, I think it is just an ingenious way to excuse PUBLIC tongue speaking without interpretation, something Paul was against.

To your question, tongue speaking is essentially a 'selfish' gift, working just for you unlike others which serve the whole church. But this is only if nobody can interpret what you are saying. I regard tongues as some supercharged prayers. Prayer is very important for our walk with God and in that regard, tongues are very important at least on personal level.

Now that you mention love, Paul HYPOTHESIZES a loveless operation of the spiritual gifts and concludes all to be in vain. I think after the thrills of the physical manifestation of BOHS, he was cautious lest we get carried away and focus on what we can see. Remember I told you Corinthians were a messed up church yet they operated the giftings. Paul tells us LOVE is a more excellent way. I couldn't agree more.

What Paul is saying in this verse is expounding on how the gift of tongues works. Supposing you want to move your body say lift your hand. First, you THINK about it, then you 'command' your hand to move. Same with prayer. Before you utter anything, you THINK about it, then you move your mouth and vocal cords and words come out.

With tongues, your mind is completely dormant. You don't THINK what to say, your spirit, powered by the Spirit of God just issues 'instructions' to your mouth and you start speaking. Of course you are fully conscious and you can feel and hear yourself speaking. But your mind has no clue what's going on. This is what Paul meant by 'unfruitful mind' since it does not participate in the process. Tongues means languages, a new unlearned language. You can't possibly sing or pray in an unlearned language.

Paul in the previous verse 13 recommends pursuit of the gift of interpretation. When you get the gift of interpretation, you will be praying in a language you have never learned, and at the same time you will comprehend what you are saying. So your mind will be 'fruitful'. It's like you praying in Mandarin and understanding Mandarin momentarily.

Let me try a simple illustration

1. Normal prayer
Mind~~~~~>Mouth/vocal cords (mind is fruitful/full comprehension)

2. Praying in tongues
Holy Spirit~~~>your spirit~~~~>mouth/vocal cords (mind is 'unfruitful'/no comprehension)

3. Praying in and Interpreting tongues
Holy Spirit~~~>your spirit~~~~mouth/vocal cords~~~>your mind (mind is fruitful/comprehension)

[Bella]

With tongues, your mind is completely dormant. You don't THINK what to say, your spirit, powered by the Spirit of God just issues 'instructions' to your mouth and you start speaking. Of course you are fully conscious and you can feel and hear yourself speaking. But your mind has no clue what's going on. This is what Paul meant by 'unfruitful mind' since it does not participate in the process. Tongues means languages, a new unlearned language. You can't possibly sing or pray in an unlearned language.

Paul in the previous verse 13 recommends pursuit of the gift of interpretation. When you get the gift of interpretation, you will be praying in a language you have never learned, and at the same time you will comprehend what you are saying. So your mind will be 'fruitful'. It's like you praying in Mandarin and understanding Mandarin momentarily.

Let me try a simple illustration

2. Praying in tongues
Holy Spirit~~~>your spirit~~~~>mouth/vocal cords (mind is 'unfruitful'/no comprehension)

3. Praying in and Interpreting tongues
Holy Spirit~~~>your spirit~~~~mouth/vocal cords~~~>your mind (mind is fruitful/comprehension)

vooke, are you speaking from personal experience with tongues?

I am asking because I have always wanted to ask someone who does it, but never gotten the opportunity. I am usually confused about who is genuinely "speaking in tongues" and who is uttering gibberish, just out of "peer-pressure" or influence. Sometimes the language sounds far too simplistic to be a genuine language, so I doubt, but I also don't wish to offend the Holy Spirit just because it doesn't sound genuine to me....Man's wisdom is foolishness to God, afterall, Eespecially when it comes to that Spirit of God who "searches" both our spirit and the very depths of God and intercedes on our behalf in "sighs too deep" for us to fathom (Deep calls to deep), per Our Lord and St. Paul's revelations/teaching.

But you don't seem like a person who would knowingly lie about it, so I'm going to ask you: What exactly is this experience of uttering words or sounds that don't make sense in your normal spoken languages?

I mean:

-Does it "come to you" involuntarily or do you start deliberately and then in the process it comes up by itself as you speak?
-What does it feel like? What's going on with you DURING the process?
-What influence does it have on your own life personally, beyond the prayer session? Does it bring you peace, for example, or the other fruits of the Holy Spirit? etc etc

Stuff like that.....

[vooke]

vooke, are you speaking from personal experience with tongues?

I am asking because I have always wanted to ask someone who does it, but never gotten the opportunity.

Hi kadame (am not callings Bella, not now nor for the next two consecutive eternities).
Yes, am speaking from my own experience, and what I have heard others

I am usually confused about who is genuinely "speaking in tongues" and who is uttering gibberish, just out of "peer-pressure" or influence. Sometimes the language sounds far too simplistic to be a genuine language, so I doubt,

Critics of tongues claim that linguistic experts/science simply rules out any meaningful language out of tongues. First, the tongues are completely strange, 'no' language like that exists. Or the syllables, sentences, constructs and all that just can't don't meet the threshold of ANY language. They also claim that while first century tongues could be understood, 'nobody' understands these. There are also claims of fake tongues and of course counterfeits, right from hell.

About tongues being gibberish, I think given the over 3000 languages in the world not to mention hundreds if not thousands of extinct language, I can excuse tongues being gibberish. Then in 1 Cor 14 where Paul hypothesizes loveless exercise of the gifts, he mentions of 'tongues of Angels'. What this means to me is there is a possibility some tongues are not human at all and they don't have to fit the realms of linguists.

If you hear tongues often, you can catch some words, and mimic tongues. Some abuse of this gift include some sects giving you some words to repeat super fast so as to 'induce tongues'! Then I have heard stories of occultists praying in tongues in a congregation and CURSING members who of course can't hear nothing.

For all these reasons, your concerns are valid, but solution to abUSE is proper USE not disUSE.

but I also don't wish to offend the Holy Spirit just because it doesn't sound genuine to me....Man's wisdom is foolishness to God, afterall, Eespecially when it comes to that Spirit of God who "searches" both our spirit and the very depths of God and intercedes on our behalf in "sighs too deep" for us to fathom (Deep calls to deep), per Our Lord and St. Paul's revelations/teaching.

It is true. When Jesus performed miracles, the perplexed Jews when they could not deny they attributed them to Baalzebub (devil). Jesus said they were blaspheming the Holy Spirit. So it ia not wise to speak evil of what you don't understand-Jude 1:10

But you don't seem like a person who would knowingly lie about it, so I'm going to ask you: What exactly is this experience of uttering words or sounds that don't make sense in your normal spoken languages?

I mean:

-Does it "come to you" involuntarily or do you start deliberately and then in the process it comes up by itself as you speak?
-What does it feel like? What's going on with you DURING the process?
-What influence does it have on your own life personally, beyond the prayer session? Does it bring you peace, for example, or the other fruits of the Holy Spirit? etc etc

Stuff like that.....

I don't know how to describe the experience but I have tried and I will try.
Imagine reading an entire paragraph of Kinyarwanda of 200 words. Your mouth is uttering Kinyarwanda, you can hear yourself uttering something, but your mind has no idea what you saying unlike if you are vybing your guy in fluent Gusii

At first it was involuntary but with time, you learn how to control yourself. There is a verse Paul's says the 'spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets' still with regard to order in public worship. You can stop and pray naturally or continue praying in tongues

The biggest impact of prayer is I think strength. And then at times peace especially over difficulties. The other one is conviction. Those nasty things/sins, the secret ones that I keep on doing, you are convicted pap!

I think in a nutshell it feels like am just from a date.....yes, an exhilarating romantic dinner. Prayer really is a romantic encounter with the Godhead.

How would you feel if you was being proposed to on top of Mt Kenya, if you was Sharon Mundia?

[mya88]

focus on you own salvation and not othersWhy do some people need even more teaching to receive manifestation and some receive it without even asking? Is it that they have less faith or doubts in their hearts?

[vooke]

focus on you own salvation and not othersWhy do some people need even more teaching to receive manifestation and some receive it without even asking? Is it that they have less faith or doubts in their hearts?

Hi mya,
I hope you are not offended by the length of my posts. Am going through them and some appear really long. I know these are deep questions and we can't just gloss over. At the same time I'd hate to bore you to death with endless inshas.

When I said work out your own salvation, I did not mean we should turn a blind eye to Christianity practiced by others. I only meant that whatever you see in them should not affect your relationship with Christ. I always joke that even Jesus couldn't get a perfect church, he had a thief and a suicidal thug rolled into one in the name of Judas. One out of twelve.

There are three reasons I believe why BOHS is seldom mentioned:
1. Cessationism
2. Bad publicity
3. Ignorance

CESSATIONISM
This is a belief that the spiritual gifts ceased to be operational with the death of the apostles. It is believed that the gifts were to aid the church before the NT was penned and after this happened, the tongues became unnecessary, they expired. Evidence of this is;
(A) Observed diminishing of the gifts after the first century
(B) some scriptures that appear to suggest so. The foundational scripture for this?

1Corinthians 13:8-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease;as for knowledge, it will pass away.9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

The verse insists the gifts are temporal; they will cease at some point when the 'perfect' comes.

 The Cessationists claim that the 'perfect' means New Testament. The last book of NT, Revelation was penned between 69-96AD. All books were in circulation by the turn of the first century. By 150AD they had started compiling them and had a good idea what should be canonical and what shouldn't.

This position is quite popular among non-Pentecostals and over the entire Christian history . It is how they excuse absence of the giftings. But to me, it borders on fatalism; you wake up and read about gifts and crazy stuff but you can't see the same in you. You conclude they were not meant for you. Case closed

I don't buy it because there is zero proof that the 'perfect' is the NT. That's a wild wild convenient speculation. And in any case, some of the giftings had nothing to do with scriptures. For instance healing. I keep on asking cessationists whether demons stopped possessing believers as soon as Revelation was penned, and what they would do if the ran into demoniac.

This teaching is responsible for the widespread ignorance of the BOHS. Why talk much about stuff that is 'irrelevant' for you?

2. BAD PUBLICITY
From Pentecost, BOHS has been abused and it was a major reason for 1 Corinthians epistle; to correct the excesses. Some guys take extreme position and ignore it all together. Like I sai, I believe the solution to abUSE is proper USE not disUSE

3. IGNORANCE
Just plain old i gnorance. BOHS is one thing you can sleep through if you are ignorant
Acts 19:1-6King James Version (KJV)
19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Note these guys were believers and they had never heard nothing. They received immediately upon hearing Nd believing.

I sometimes think this ignorance is inspired by the devil because he knows the implication of BOHS.


Every time I look at Luke 24 and Acts 1-2, how Jesus suspended the Great Commission till BOHS, I get convinced that BOHS is a necessity and not a.....not reserve for the Christian nerds.

[mya88]

There is a popular teaching among Pentecostals I have heard so often but from scriptures I just can't see it. It claims there are TWO types of tongues; praying in tongues and speaking in tongues. Praying is just that whereas speaking is uttering some prophetic words only in a different language. It further claims that when Paul discouraged speaking in tongues without interpretation, he was talking about the latter otherwise praying in tongues don't need interpretation. When I look at it, I think it is just an ingenious way to excuse PUBLIC tongue speaking without interpretation, something Paul was against.

To your question, tongue speaking is essentially a 'selfish' gift, working just for you unlike others which serve the whole church. But this is only if nobody can interpret what you are saying. I regard tongues as some supercharged prayers. Prayer is very important for our walk with God and in that regard, tongues are very important at least on personal level.

Now that you mention love, Paul HYPOTHESIZES a loveless operation of the spiritual gifts and concludes all to be in vain. I think after the thrills of the physical manifestation of BOHS, he was cautious lest we get carried away and focus on what we can see. Remember I told you Corinthians were a messed up church yet they operated the giftings. Paul tells us LOVE is a more excellent way. I couldn't agree more.

What Paul is saying in this verse is expounding on how the gift of tongues works. Supposing you want to move your body say lift your hand. First, you THINK about it, then you 'command' your hand to move. Same with prayer. Before you utter anything, you THINK about it, then you move your mouth and vocal cords and words come out.

With tongues, your mind is completely dormant. You don't THINK what to say, your spirit, powered by the Spirit of God just issues 'instructions' to your mouth and you start speaking. Of course you are fully conscious and you can feel and hear yourself speaking. But your mind has no clue what's going on. This is what Paul meant by 'unfruitful mind' since it does not participate in the process. Tongues means languages, a new unlearned language. You can't possibly sing or pray in an unlearned language.

Paul in the previous verse 13 recommends pursuit of the gift of interpretation. When you get the gift of interpretation, you will be praying in a language you have never learned, and at the same time you will comprehend what you are saying. So your mind will be 'fruitful'. It's like you praying in Mandarin and understanding Mandarin momentarily.

Let me try a simple illustration

1. Normal prayer
Mind~~~~~>Mouth/vocal cords (mind is fruitful/full comprehension)

2. Praying in tongues
Holy Spirit~~~>your spirit~~~~>mouth/vocal cords (mind is 'unfruitful'/no comprehension)

3. Praying in and Interpreting tongues
Holy Spirit~~~>your spirit~~~~mouth/vocal cords~~~>your mind (mind is fruitful/comprehension)

vooke

I have heard of speaking in tongued and praying in tongues. I always assumed the two were the same thing and I  haven't seen any significant distinction among-st the two. Why else would some one be speaking in tongues if they aren't praying....since this is a gift of self...to intercede to God on your behalf. I have also seen pastors who as they pray in tongues, they get a message from God and say it in plain English to whomever the message is for.

I never had questions of these kind before when it pertains to pastors especially those who are really called...... But reading Corinthians awakened me to the fact that anyone can have these gifts if they desire and ask for them.... but before the gift there must be BOHS. So why not empower people to pray for that BOHS so that they don't constantly need pastors or prophets to pray fr them?