Author Topic: Obama To Visit Kenya In July  (Read 103226 times)

Offline Mr Mansfield.

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2015, 12:31:04 PM »
Not just Kenya but Africa as a whole has seen tremendous improvement over the last 50years...Africa is not a sea of poverty or hell as negativity based people want to label it..poverty has reduced,education has improved,health has improved,governance has improved,infrastructure is improving...everything is on an upward momentum,Of course there are problems but they will continue to be solved with time...Picking data randomly from everywhere to demonize Africa doesn't make sense,one has to factor historical trends and future projections to monitor how Africa is doing,Its doing and will continue to do great,

Without Prejudice.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2015, 02:27:28 PM »
Let me add. Some of the problems that are troubling Moonki and Windy City eventually solves themselves on their own. Take corruption for instance. In kenya right now it's everywhere from households, to small business, to private sector and to gov,  nearly everyone is trying to cut corners or bribe or steal. If you look at it from Moonki ivory tower you may despair..but evidence from history shows that corruption eventually solves itself on IT OWN. As income levels rises, then people become more and more ethical.
Not just Kenya but Africa as a whole has seen tremendous improvement over the last 50years...Africa is not a sea of poverty or hell as negativity based people want to label it..poverty has reduced,education has improved,health has improved,governance has improved,infrastructure is improving...everything is on an upward momentum,Of course there are problems but they will continue to be solved with time...Picking data randomly from everywhere to demonize Africa doesn't make sense,one has to factor historical trends and future projections to monitor how Africa is doing,Its doing and will continue to do great,

Without Prejudice.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #82 on: April 07, 2015, 02:38:40 PM »
Let me add. Some of the problems that are troubling Moonki and Windy City eventually solves themselves on their own. Take corruption for instance. In kenya right now it's everywhere from households, to small business, to private sector and to gov,  nearly everyone is trying to cut corners or bribe or steal. If you look at it from Moonki ivory tower you may despair..but evidence from history shows that corruption eventually solves itself on IT OWN. As income levels rises, then people become more and more ethical.
Not just Kenya but Africa as a whole has seen tremendous improvement over the last 50years...Africa is not a sea of poverty or hell as negativity based people want to label it..poverty has reduced,education has improved,health has improved,governance has improved,infrastructure is improving...everything is on an upward momentum,Of course there are problems but they will continue to be solved with time...Picking data randomly from everywhere to demonize Africa doesn't make sense,one has to factor historical trends and future projections to monitor how Africa is doing,Its doing and will continue to do great,

Without Prejudice.
Pundit,

Come on.  That just isn't true.  Botswana has tackled corruption before incomes rose.  So has Rwanda if reports are to be believed.

Conversely it is experiencing a resurgence in South Africa which has had relatively higher incomes.  It does not go away on its own.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #83 on: April 07, 2015, 02:48:19 PM »
I think Botswana,Namibia and Southern Africa countries have corruption level that matches their income level. Rwanda is dictatorship misnomer really where I am not sure anything Kagame is doing is sustainable or not. The country is in a grip of fear.That model is not replicable.
 
That theory that corruption eventually goes away on it's own is solid. You won't believe it but that is what happened in Britain (I have read a lot about their history) and nearly every country.

And I do hope you're not alleging Botwsana has done well because it less corrupt. Botswana hit a natural jackpot in Diamond and other minerals. Unlike populous Nigeria, Botswana was luckly a desert country with very few people, so the everyone got a big pie, enough to be contented, nice, ethical and happy.

Pundit,

Come on.  That just isn't true.  Botswana has tackled corruption before incomes rose.  So has Rwanda if reports are to be believed.

Conversely it is experiencing a resurgence in South Africa which has had relatively higher incomes.  It does not go away on its own.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #84 on: April 07, 2015, 04:05:31 PM »
I think Botswana,Namibia and Southern Africa countries have corruption level that matches their income level. Rwanda is dictatorship misnomer really where I am not sure anything Kagame is doing is sustainable or not. The country is in a grip of fear.That model is not replicable.
 
That theory that corruption eventually goes away on it's own is solid. You won't believe it but that is what happened in Britain (I have read a lot about their history) and nearly every country.

And I do hope you're not alleging Botwsana has done well because it less corrupt. Botswana hit a natural jackpot in Diamond and other minerals. Unlike populous Nigeria, Botswana was luckly a desert country with very few people, so the everyone got a big pie, enough to be contented, nice, ethical and happy.

Pundit,

Come on.  That just isn't true.  Botswana has tackled corruption before incomes rose.  So has Rwanda if reports are to be believed.

Conversely it is experiencing a resurgence in South Africa which has had relatively higher incomes.  It does not go away on its own.
I just mentioned Botswana as an example of a country with historically low levels of corruption that had nothing to with high income.  I am not saying that is why it is doing relatively well - though it might be an important factor.  There are many factors. 

What Kagame is doing is the only way corruption can be tamed.  When the personal price is too high.  It's part of human nature.  If you can just take, why work for it? 
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #85 on: April 07, 2015, 08:45:49 PM »
evidence from history shows that corruption eventually solves itself on IT OWN.

Really?  Interesting.   But we need not dwell on the claimed "evidence from history".   If you are right, then the most important thing is to get the message out to Kenyans in Kenya because many seem to be in despair over the vice.

And Kenyans elsewhere also worry about it.   Even here, Bella (who, as far as I can tell,  is not in Kenya) has written that"

"Corruption is a matter of our very survival now.  ... It just is no longer sustainable, this corruption. Even for people used to corruption like Kenyans. We will collapse ... The problem is our rotten dying culture and we are learning very fast that it is now a matter of life and death."

Regarding my "ivory tower": If those who suffer most from corruption choose to believe (or can be made to believe) that it will, somehow, just solve itself, then that's just great for them!   All I can do is wish them well and hope that the "evolution" will not take too long.   Still, I am inclined to believe that they would be better off tackling it assiduously, and, accordingly,  most of my comments on the matter will generally be to that end.

I also have similar sentiments in other matters: If the majority of Africans feel that the continent has undergone "tremendous improvement" and is no longer "a sea of poverty", then I think that's just great and wonderful.  Fantastic stuff!  What matters is that people are happy, and shrinks say that a positive attitude is always very helpful.   But, again, I have one or two small doubts, here and there, and many of my general comments will tend to reflect that. Negligible stuff, really.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 09:47:16 PM by MOON Ki »
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Offline Bella

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #86 on: April 07, 2015, 09:33:08 PM »
Huh? MoonKi, I am Kenyan. What gives you the impression I'm anything else? I'm Gusii.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #87 on: April 08, 2015, 01:24:36 AM »
Huh? MoonKi, I am Kenyan. What gives you the impression I'm anything else? I'm Gusii.

Note:

"And Kenyans elsewhere also worry about it.   Even here, Bella (who, as far as I can tell,  is not in Kenya) has written that ..."

"not in Kenya" is not the same as "not Kenyan"
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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #88 on: April 08, 2015, 08:42:44 AM »
I think you misunderstood it. What I meant is that if the economy is still somehow growing , then corruption will slowly or naturally reduce. Of course if corruption has totally impeded economic growth, then it become a dangerous cancer on the country, given corruption will increase. Africa and Kenya have been growing at about 5-6% per annum the last decade or so...and therefore the good news (which you really hate) is that as economy grows, corruption naturally declines.

So corruption doesn't go away on it's own...but you can grow your away out of corruption.

There is a lot to be positive about Kenya and Africa the last two decades...as shown by the steady economic growth for first time in generations.

Really?  Interesting.   But we need not dwell on the claimed "evidence from history".   If you are right, then the most important thing is to get the message out to Kenyans in Kenya because many seem to be in despair over the vice.

And Kenyans elsewhere also worry about it.   Even here, Bella (who, as far as I can tell,  is not in Kenya) has written that"

"Corruption is a matter of our very survival now.  ... It just is no longer sustainable, this corruption. Even for people used to corruption like Kenyans. We will collapse ... The problem is our rotten dying culture and we are learning very fast that it is now a matter of life and death."

Regarding my "ivory tower": If those who suffer most from corruption choose to believe (or can be made to believe) that it will, somehow, just solve itself, then that's just great for them!   All I can do is wish them well and hope that the "evolution" will not take too long.   Still, I am inclined to believe that they would be better off tackling it assiduously, and, accordingly,  most of my comments on the matter will generally be to that end.

I also have similar sentiments in other matters: If the majority of Africans feel that the continent has undergone "tremendous improvement" and is no longer "a sea of poverty", then I think that's just great and wonderful.  Fantastic stuff!  What matters is that people are happy, and shrinks say that a positive attitude is always very helpful.   But, again, I have one or two small doubts, here and there, and many of my general comments will tend to reflect that. Negligible stuff, really.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #89 on: April 08, 2015, 08:52:07 AM »
Haven't we not passed death sentence for any robbery with violence and yet it doesn't seem to deter criminals.What for example will you suggest will end low level endemic corruption in Police dept. This has been the star in matters corruption. If you fire and replace with a new team, there is nearly 100% likelihood the new crop will be equally corrupt.

In short some of this things need time.


What Kagame is doing is the only way corruption can be tamed.  When the personal price is too high.  It's part of human nature.  If you can just take, why work for it? 


Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #90 on: April 08, 2015, 11:38:08 AM »
Haven't we not passed death sentence for any robbery with violence and yet it doesn't seem to deter criminals.What for example will you suggest will end low level endemic corruption in Police dept. This has been the star in matters corruption. If you fire and replace with a new team, there is nearly 100% likelihood the new crop will be equally corrupt.

In short some of this things need time.


What Kagame is doing is the only way corruption can be tamed.  When the personal price is too high.  It's part of human nature.  If you can just take, why work for it? 

You raise a good point.  Yet one cannot ignore the characteristics of the protagonists.  Different dynamics in play.

The robbery with violence types are usually so desperate that even certainty of lynching is not a deterrent.  That type of thing is what goes down with economic growth.

On the other hand, the Anglo-leasing/Goldenberg types will be deterred by a simple long prison sentence and asset freezes.  They are not poor.  They will stop if corruption becomes unrewarding.  By carrying a heavy price.

If you lock up a Kidero, a Chahonyo, to pick random examples, for 50 years, they are going to change.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #91 on: April 08, 2015, 11:51:34 AM »
I agree that the greedy type (not the desperate type) will stop if we mess with risk-reward matrix. I am not sure why that hasn't happened yet. Perhaps these cases are hard to proof or our criminal systems is equally corrupt?
You raise a good point.  Yet one cannot ignore the characteristics of the protagonists.  Different dynamics in play.

The robbery with violence types are usually so desperate that even certainty of lynching is not a deterrent.  That type of thing is what goes down with economic growth.

On the other hand, the Anglo-leasing/Goldenberg types will be deterred by a simple long prison sentence and asset freezes.  They are not poor.  They will stop if corruption becomes unrewarding.  By carrying a heavy price.

If you lock up a Kidero, a Chahonyo, to pick random examples, for 50 years, they are going to change.

Offline Bella

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #92 on: April 08, 2015, 12:54:03 PM »
I agree that the greedy type (not the desperate type) will stop if we mess with risk-reward matrix. I am not sure why that hasn't happened yet. Perhaps these cases are hard to proof or our criminal systems is equally corrupt?
Because that depends on having functional institutions. That or a dictator who hates theft ala Kagame. Thing is, institutions depend on/are built on the strength of the underlying culture. You have a population still with so many poor and desperate, as Africa most assuredly does, with such a disproportionately few "educated" verses a majority of people merely dependent on trust to make political decisions (Hence the strength of the "my man from the village is better than the "outsider"" approach to politics; Because 80% of our people, like it or not, very much depend on someone to tell them what is or is not a good political move/where to go. This is why the tribal king pin is truly king or shaman, if you will. You therefore need something extra to hold up the institutions as you cant rely on public accountability. Even China is corrupt but manages to control it via dictatorship somewhat.

We won't go the dictatorship way as the dictator is likely to be the biggest looter of them all, as our hard experience has shown us all over the continent (Compare corruption now which, while too much, does not stagnate growth, to corruption during Moi's time which nearly ground economic growth); benevolent dictatorships are something of a myth in most cases. This is what takes patience, as the only way to do it is to slowly train the public quite literally how to "think"/ "calculate" politically, which is quite the task. Why I have great respect for civil society. The media used to be good too in filling that gap and letting the people know just what was being done to them and why it was a very bad thing, but lately, I don't know what happened there either. They used to be very good at rousing the public, getting them on their feet. After the bitter PEV experience, however, no one dares go down that route. Like I said to Moonki,if it is not force/war, then the excruciatingly hard and slow route, education of the public, one by one, is the ONLY thing to do. It has nothing to do with the African, its just human: A benevolent leader, as rare as fresh water in the Sahara; a ruthless dictatorship; a violent popular revolution; or the slow way which requires patience.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #93 on: April 08, 2015, 01:27:28 PM »
Also apart from civil society raising awareness and generally making some noises, this I think is where MoonKi Western Allies can really help. Most of the grand corruptions happen internationally.Obama can make a name for himself by going for them in US, in Europe and in any of those financial hubs where the money get stashed...it easy for them to seize the assets of the corrupt...as illegal proceeds and remit back to Africa.

But we know once the horse has bolted..it hard to catch them.

I would focus on enacting controls and risk mitigation that make it very hard for corruption to occur by ensuring no few people sitting in some boards can award tenders or make huge decisions without checks and balances.

Also with Information Age..more transparency and accountability is now possible than previously.

Because that depends on having functional institutions. That or a dictator who hates theft ala Kagame. Thing is, institutions depend on/are built on the strength of the underlying culture. You have a population still with so many poor and desperate, as Africa most assuredly does, with such a disproportionately few "educated" verses a majority of people merely dependent on trust to make political decisions (Hence the strength of the "my man from the village is better than the "outsider"" approach to politics; Because 80% of our people, like it or not, very much depend on someone to tell them what is or is not a good political move/where to go. This is why the tribal king pin is truly king or shaman, if you will. You therefore need something extra to hold up the institutions as you cant rely on public accountability. Even China is corrupt but manages to control it via dictatorship somewhat. We won't go the dictatorship way as the dictator is likely to be the biggest looter of them all; benevolent dictatorships are something of a myth in most cases. This is what takes patience, as the only way to do it is to slowly train the public quite literally how to "think"/ "calculate" politically, which is quite the task. Why I have great respect for civil society. The media used to be good too in filling that gap and letting the people know just what was being done to them and why it was a very bad thing, but lately, I don't know what happened there either.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #94 on: April 08, 2015, 05:26:06 PM »
I agree that the greedy type (not the desperate type) will stop if we mess with risk-reward matrix. I am not sure why that hasn't happened yet. Perhaps these cases are hard to proof or our criminal systems is equally corrupt?
You raise a good point.  Yet one cannot ignore the characteristics of the protagonists.  Different dynamics in play.

The robbery with violence types are usually so desperate that even certainty of lynching is not a deterrent.  That type of thing is what goes down with economic growth.

On the other hand, the Anglo-leasing/Goldenberg types will be deterred by a simple long prison sentence and asset freezes.  They are not poor.  They will stop if corruption becomes unrewarding.  By carrying a heavy price.

If you lock up a Kidero, a Chahonyo, to pick random examples, for 50 years, they are going to change.
It takes political will from the top.  Not necessarily a dictator.  kamwana can kick start it just by firing those CSs and PSs named in the EACC list and some more.  The other allegedly independent people like DPP will take their cue and move fast. 

As it is, there is just no political will.  Kenyans know that and since they continue to back the same cast, it seems like they are fine with it.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Bella

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #95 on: April 08, 2015, 06:46:37 PM »
It takes political will from the top.  Not necessarily a dictator.  kamwana can kick start it just by firing those CSs and PSs named in the EACC list and some more.  The other allegedly independent people like DPP will take their cue and move fast. 

As it is, there is just no political will.  Kenyans know that and since they continue to back the same cast, it seems like they are fine with it.
In other words, trusting the leader to be good. Simply doesn't happen with the political type, except the rare once-in-a-blue moon historical figure like the Abraham Lincoln's, Mandelas of History or American founding fathers. As you point out, it ultimately falls on the public to hold up institutions, not the politician on top who can almost always be counted on to be selfish. And if the public isn't equipped to do that, what one who cares about the continent can do is concentrate on that via civic education, formal education, and ventures that lift more and more people out of poverty in spite of the leadership.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #96 on: April 08, 2015, 07:25:11 PM »
I think you misunderstood it ...
So corruption doesn't go away on it's own...

Really?  If that so, then my bad.   But in my "defence", I should say was responding to a sentence written by one RV Pundit, who even went to the trouble to capitalize "its own", and which does not appear to be particular difficult sentence to understand.   

This one:

Quote
evidence from history shows that corruption eventually solves itself on IT OWN.
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Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #97 on: April 08, 2015, 07:57:12 PM »
It takes political will from the top.  Not necessarily a dictator.  kamwana can kick start it just by firing those CSs and PSs named in the EACC list and some more.  The other allegedly independent people like DPP will take their cue and move fast. 

As it is, there is just no political will.  Kenyans know that and since they continue to back the same cast, it seems like they are fine with it.
In other words, trusting the leader to be good. Simply doesn't happen with the political type, except the rare once-in-a-blue moon historical figure like the Abraham Lincoln's, Mandelas of History or American founding fathers. As you point out, it ultimately falls on the public to hold up institutions, not the politician on top who can almost always be counted on to be selfish. And if the public isn't equipped to do that, what one who cares about the continent can do is concentrate on that via civic education, formal education, and ventures that lift more and more people out of poverty in spite of the leadership.
That's what I used to think.  Me I think integrity you either value it or you value other things, like tribe, more.

In any case, I am convinced not everybody has to be the same.  One has to respect the will of the people at some point.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #98 on: April 08, 2015, 09:07:27 PM »
Also apart from civil society raising awareness and generally making some noises, this I think is where MoonKi Western Allies can really help. Most of the grand corruptions happen internationally.Obama can make a name for himself by going for them in US, in Europe and in any of those financial hubs where the money get stashed...it easy for them to seize the assets of the corrupt...as illegal proceeds and remit back to Africa.

First: Obama's government has in fact been doing something about that and in 2010 took a step that no previous US government had taken: the Kleptocracy Asset Recovery Initiative.     And they are using it in novel ways: no matter where the money is, if it went through a US financial institution, they will go after it.

Here are a couple of examples of the initiative in action:

"."

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/us-freezes-more-458-million-stolen-former-nigerian-dictator-largest-kleptocracy-forfeiture

"."

http://www.compliancebuilding.com/2014/10/20/kleptocracy-asset-recovery-initiative/

---

Second: It is far from easy to just go out and grab the stolen assets. Many of those countries where the stolen money is stashed have functional legal systems that require some proof that the money was stolen.   There mere fact that everyone and his dog "knows" that it was stolen and "knows" who the identity of the alleged thief are not enough.

- The thieves have the sort of money to buy the kind of lawyers (in those same countries) that will give the government a hard tackle.

- More importantly, the concrete evidence required to support a case usually has to come from the country that was robbed, and too often that country will not supply the information.   Do we, for example, expect the current GoK to provide evidence that would corner Moi?     

Moi  is in fact a good example---very good example:

(a) The current Anglo-Leasing nonsense in Kenyan courts, which will go nowhere, is in fact a smokescreen to convince the Swiss that Kenya is serious about Anglo Leasing.  And why is that smokescreen necessary?   Because the  Office of the Attorney General of Switzerland is after Moi's criminally obtained money:

http://star.worldbank.org/corruption-cases/node/18486

It remains to be seen whether or not the Swiss will be fooled.   Even if they wanted to look aside, Obama's US government has made it clear that it will no longer accept Swiss banks doing "business as usual".   

It is very important to keep in mind that the current Anglo-Leasing "heat" in Kenya is not the result of GoK suddenly deciding to do the right thing.    Nor is merely the fact that the Swiss have suddenly realized that they banked stolen money from Kenya.    One should look at the heat that the USA has been putting on the Swiss folks, on many fronts.   

(b) What is the current GoK attitude to tackling Moi?   One can get an idea in the US tribunal matter concerning World Duty Free.   GoK had an interesting line in that one.    Part of the claim was that Moi had eaten chicken in the matter.   One would have expected at least a few words going the other way.   But, on the contrary, GoK argued that it had every right to screw World Duty Free precisely because Moi had eaten money in the deal and Kenyan law (being upright!) insists on not supporting criminal activities.   Wow. 

The tribunal, quite naturally, was astounded:

"It remains nonetheless a highly disturbing feature in this case that the corrupt recipient of the Claimant's bribe was more than an officer of the State but its most senior officer, the Kenyan President; and that it is Kenya which is here advancing as a complete defence to the Claimant's [World Duty Free's] claims the illegalities of its own former President ."

http://star.worldbank.org/corruption-cases/node/18487

-----

Third: Even when the money has been seized by others, it is not necessarily easy to return it.   

-- Sometimes those whose money has been stolen will not ask to get it back because that would mean admitting that currently powerful people are thieves.   Nigeria, for example, has sometimes shown that it would rather cut deals with the thieves than try to get back all of its stolen money that has been recovered.

-- The current US government seems to believe that simply returning stolen money so that it can be re-stolen is not helpful; they would prefer to know (i) what will be done to the thieves, and (ii) how the stolen money will be used. For that reason, I don't see the USA quickly returning the money they have cornered.    On (ii), last I heard, the Nigerian had paid some fancy lawyers & associated types to suggest that it could be given to a  US NGO or some similar lot in Nigeria to spend wisely.

The Nigerian "public" too seems to have its doubts about simply returning the money; they have been there before:

"Despite its inability to adequately explain how the more than $500 million Sani Abacha loot recovered from Swiss authorities was spent, the Federal Government has filed an application at a Washington DC District Court requesting that another $500 million (N75 billion) stolen by the late military dictator, recently frozen by the United States Department of Justice, be repatriated to the country.

In February, the Minister of Finance, Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala, said the money recovered from Switzerland was used for rural development projects but failed to name specific projects the money was used for
."

http://www.premiumtimesng.com/news/161251-nigeria-asks-u-s-return-500-million-abacha-loot-country.html

I support the USA on this one: as long as Nigeria goes there begging for aid, why burden US taxpayers?  Might as well give them Nigerian money.






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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Obama To Visit Kenya In July
« Reply #99 on: April 08, 2015, 09:22:59 PM »
Maybe I assumed you'd understood the context. Maybe in the future..I need to really do more [I have to admit, I am too lazy]. But you get the point..corruption like any vice...is a by-product of poverty and as people become wealthy and as opportunities increase with economic growth..there is less incentive..to steal.


Really?  If that so, then my bad.   But in my "defence", I should say was responding to a sentence written by one RV Pundit, who even went to the trouble to capitalize "its own", and which does not appear to be particular difficult sentence to understand.   

This one:

Quote
evidence from history shows that corruption eventually solves itself on IT OWN.