Obama To Visit Kenya In July

[MOON Ki]

In your typical attempt to nitpick you've missed my point.

He, he, he ... I always see that whenever I try to move you towards concrete and objective statements and away from vague, hand-waving stuff.

You admit Obama has done nothing new except perhaps favour kenya by increasing Bush Jnr

And where did I do that?

Perhaps Obama with Africa roots would have created a brand new US AFRICA FUND or AID AGENCY?

First, as I have indicated above, you need to get beyond the typical (and damaging) African thinking of "he is from our area, so we expect manna to rain from his heaven".   Other than the fact that Obama is only very vaguely Africans, I note that not even folks from places where he actually grew up are demanding so much on such a questionable basis.

Second, why should he roll out new "AFRICA FUND or AID AGENCY?" if the existing ones can do the job?   What types of "fund or aid agency" do you have in mind, and what would they do that is not being done or cannot be done by the existing ones?

Chinese in the same period have rolled out several Africa funds.

Tell us a bit more.  Then we can have an objective discussion.

How much would it have cost Obama to get US to fund piped water for everyone Nyanza? Spare change.

Obama despite his African heritage has done nothing new or inspiring for Africans..in fact he has done less or nothing.

Emotional and unhelpful clap-trap.

Meanwhile China has been rolling out super highways, high speed rails,mega dams and paying  a premium for Africa raw materilas from Angola, to Nigeria, to Sudan, to Ethiopia, to Zambia, to Kenya and name them.

I gave you Angola as a case-study:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-32067602

Please discuss.  How is the average Angolan benefiting from all the "super highways, high speed rails,mega dams and paying  a premium for Africa raw materilas"?

* Right now, about 25% of Kenyan children under five will be permanently damaged, from poor physical and mental growth, because a a lack of proper nutrition.   And the Chinese infrastructure is helping that how?

* What premiums on raw materials?  The Saudis and the USA have managed to drive the price of oil down dramatically in the last year.   Are the Chinese paying more for oil, or are they paying market rates?

* "High speed rails": where and when?  When Kenya's great SGR is finished it will run at speeds of about 80-120 kph.   That's what the Japanese have on refurbished narrow-gauge lines that are older than Kenya's.   But Kenyans think they have leapt into the Star-Trek hyper-galactic speed mode!

[RV Pundit]

More nitpicking spawning new diversion away from Obama obvious lack of anything he has done for Africa.Perhaps you can tell us what Obama has done for Africa..apart from quietly (you say) increasing funding for Kenya!

In your typical attempt to nitpick you've missed my point.

He, he, he ... I always see that whenever I try to move you towards concrete and objective statements and away from vague, hand-waving stuff.

You admit Obama has done nothing new except perhaps favour kenya by increasing Bush Jnr

And where did I do that?

Perhaps Obama with Africa roots would have created a brand new US AFRICA FUND or AID AGENCY?

First, as I have indicated above, you need to get beyond the typical (and damaging) African thinking of "he is from our area, so we expect manna to rain from his heaven".   Other than the fact that Obama is only very vaguely Africans, I note that not even folks from places where he actually grew up are demanding so much on such a questionable basis.

Second, why should he roll out new "AFRICA FUND or AID AGENCY?" if the existing ones can do the job?   What types of "fund or aid agency" do you have in mind, and what would they do that is not being done or cannot be done by the existing ones?

Chinese in the same period have rolled out several Africa funds.

Tell us a bit more.  Then we can have an objective discussion.

How much would it have cost Obama to get US to fund piped water for everyone Nyanza? Spare change.

Obama despite his African heritage has done nothing new or inspiring for Africans..in fact he has done less or nothing.

Emotional and unhelpful clap-trap.

Meanwhile China has been rolling out super highways, high speed rails,mega dams and paying  a premium for Africa raw materilas from Angola, to Nigeria, to Sudan, to Ethiopia, to Zambia, to Kenya and name them.

I gave you Angola as a case-study:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-32067602

Please discuss.  How is the average Angolan benefiting from all the "super highways, high speed rails,mega dams and paying  a premium for Africa raw materilas"?

* Right now, about 25% of Kenyan children under five will be permanently damaged, from poor physical and mental growth, because a a lack of proper nutrition.   And the Chinese infrastructure is helping that how?

* What premiums on raw materials?  The Saudis and the USA have managed to drive the price of oil down dramatically in the last year.   Are the Chinese paying more for oil, or are they paying market rates?

* "High speed rails": where and when?  When Kenya's great SGR is finished it will run at speeds of about 80-120 kph.   That's what the Japanese have on refurbished narrow-gauge lines that are older than Kenya's.   But Kenyans think they have leapt into the Star-Trek hyper-galactic speed mode!

[MOON Ki]

MoonKi,
Once you will be able to distinguish btw your bile against Africa political leadership and the poor victims of the same suffering in great poverty and misery..majority lacking the ability to make rational political decision..then we can have a debate.

Once again, you have veered into the region of unhelpful emotional stuff; "don't blame the victim" is a very tired line.

Let's just take Kenya, as an example, and consider the last elections.  The two possibilities:

(a) Either the elections were stolen in a big way, and I personally doubt that, or

(b) the people freely voted, as usual, for "our man", in which case they must accept some responsibility.

Which of those would you like to go with?

All i can hear are your tirade against Africa leadership (anyone can fill up pages with that)...with very little in terms of solutions to help the poor in these countries..with real tangible sustainable development models.

It is actually not my place to offer solutions, but I have a few ideas of what might work:

(a) The African voter to get away from "the man from our village", "our tribe vs. that tribe", and that sort of reasoning, and to vote on the basis of past performance, potential for future performance, character and integrity, etc.

(b) The elected Africans to focus on doing what they were elected to do, rather than eating and robbing the country.

If you have better ideas, then we can certainly discuss them.   But I don't consider "China will save us" as a better idea, and I hope you have in mind some better solutions.

This is not the first time we have heard an Africa like situation...nothing novel here.

Obama could have really helped if he really needed to...either thro or bypassing Africa countries.

And I repeat: Forget Obama.   What are the Africans doing for themselves?

Will Siaya refuse 100M USD Obama grant to build a university that will educate 20,000 graduates annually (rather than spending the same money in some opaque youth leadership nonsense)...Will Siaya people refuse pipe water to every household from US goverment? Will Siaya people refuses tarmac road from Obama? Will Siaya people refuses Obama assistance to build small time factories in Siaya? Will Siaya people refuse Obama help to modernize their schools?

Again, I urge you to move beyond the type on unhelpful "our people" and "my area" emotion that keeps much of Africa down.   Siaya has its local elected representatives.  What are they doing for the place?   Siaya is part of Kenya.  What are Uhuru and Ruto going for the place?   First, exhaust the Kenyan options, and tell us about them, then---perhaps eventually---we can get to Obama.   So then, what are the elected people in Kenya doing for this Siaya that has got you so worked up?

By the way, my local elective representative is of Indian origin.    But I do not expect him to favour those of Indian origin, nor do I expect him to be running around villages in India handing over our tax-money to any supposedly "our people".   He works hard for us, has been doing so for a while, and we'll keep voting him in as long as he remembers why we put him there.

Well perhaps Obama can learn from Africa leaders who despite stealing get elected...they deliver some form of  Maendeleo that people want...some school there..an hospital here...a tarmac road there..

Obama is not an African leader.   Whether he is delivering maendeleo or not is a matter for the people who elected him, but I doubt that they elected him on the basis of what maendeleo he would bring to any place outside the USA, and it is on that basis that they will judge him.

If Kenyans and Africans want leaders who will bring maendeleo to them, then they would do well to remember that when they go to the ballot box.   Just take a look at the motely crew that makes up the Kenyan legislature

Those are the things that MATTER in SIAYA, in CHINA and in the US. Not some opaque AID given to some opaque NGOs delivering some Opaque services.

And I urge Kenyans and all Africans to work on getting them for themselves.   The rest of the world looks after itself first.

[MOON Ki]

More nitpicking spawning ....

Yes, I knew concrete facts (e.g. Angola) against Kung-Fu-As-Saviour would awkward.  Nitpicking!   Far easier to believe that Kung Fu will miraculously save those who can't be bothered to save themselves.  National development as mindless religious faith: No matter!  The Great External White Yellow One will make sure that all is well in the end!

new diversion away from Obama obvious lack of anything he has done for Africa

I have tried to do that, in several ways.  So before I make any other attempt---and I will be happy to do so---how about we start at the beginning:

Why should Obama do anything for Africa?

(After the why, we can get to the what.)

[RV Pundit]

There is no need for endless debate when you position is that Africa doesn't need any help. Perhaps you can tell us how you ended up in South Korea and US without some of form of help along the way. I can hazard a guess... you got lots of help along the way..and you made it....now don't deny others in Africa that help. Obama father got that help.. from the great JFK.Obama Jnr has failed to help Africa.

Africa NEED NEED HELP. All the help it can get. Africa poverty is indeed emotional. People in Africa are dying from lack of food or disease in a world so blessed.You're adopting bizzare ideas coz US AID that is dear to you has failed.

The next leader of US and China should make AFRICA POVERTY a global issue once again.

You do not expect someone suffering from misery to miraculously help themselves out of hole..even if they dug it themselves.

The guy truly helping Africa now is Bill and Melinda Gates ...I do hope he get a Nobel Peace Price...something Obama didn't deserve. Obama has more influence and resources than Bill & Melinda...has Africa roots..with living relatives in Kogelo living like savages..and yet he has done nothing...

Ohoo US cares about US...is ISRAEL part of US? Is Ukraine part of US? Why is the US sending billions to Isreal..a small desert of 5M folks..while ignoring a continent that is truly suffering?

I supported Obama first election and by the time of his re-election i was out of that bandawagon...for exactly that reason..he had failed to raise the profile of Africa poverty in the global stage.

More nitpicking spawning ....

Yes, I knew concrete facts (e.g. Angola) against Kung-Fu-As-Saviour would awkward.  Nitpicking!   Far easier to believe that Kung Fu will miraculously save those who can't be bothered to save themselves.  National development as mindless religious faith: No matter!  The Great External White Yellow One will make sure that all is well in the end!

new diversion away from Obama obvious lack of anything he has done for Africa

I have tried to do that, in several ways.  So before I make any other attempt---and I will be happy to do so---how about we start at the beginning:

Why should Obama do anything for Africa?

(After the why, we can get to the what.)

[MOON Ki]

Pundit, you are a funny guy!   You did not quite answer the "preliminary" question I asked, but let me try with another one:

Why should anyone bother to try to help those who don't seem keen to help themselves?

One reason I ask is that taxpayers in those countries that you insist must help Africa because "it needs help" keep asking why they should bother when they look at, say, all the corruption scandals in a place like Kenya.   (Folks in those countries too have their own problems.)

living relatives in Kogelo living like savages..

I have actually been to the place.  That's not what I thought of it.   I saw people just getting on with a relatively simple but decent life.   Where did you get that one?

I supported Obama first election and by the time of his re-election i was out of that bandawagon...

Phew!   That was close!   Just as well for him that he wasn't counting for support from Mavoko, eh?

[RV Pundit]

Part of helping Africa is because they can't help themselves. And secondly because the Africa poverty is troubling for anyone. That should include citizens of US. I doubt US citizen will riot if Obama increase USAID budget from 2% to 5%. They haven't rioted when US has helped Isreal.

All the world need to see from Obama are the pictures of his relatives living a simple life...a savage life with mud houses, mud patches for a road,muddy pool of water in some dam as source of water, with guys shitting on bushes, rickety school structures and total lack of any of modern amenities.That is savagery not any much different from what Kenya was 200yrs ago.

And that is general image you see in 95% of rural sub-saharan africa...uniform poverty.

When they see that...their human compassion will drive them to do more. Obama has to make them SEE IT. He has to talk ABOUT IT. He has to make sure AFRICA POVERTY is global issue...for people to grapple with..including all the problems you've identified.

Pundit, you are a funny guy!   You did not quite answer the "preliminary" question I asked, but let me try with another one:

Why should anyone bother to try to help those who don't seem keen to help themselves?

One reason I ask is that taxpayers in those countries that you insist must help Africa because "it needs help" keep asking why they should bother when they look at, say, all the corruption scandals in a place like Kenya.   (Folks in those countries too have their own problems.)

living relatives in Kogelo living like savages..

I have actually been to the place.  That's not what I thought of it.   I saw people just getting on with a relatively simple but decent life.   Where did you get that one?

I supported Obama first election and by the time of his re-election i was out of that bandawagon...

Just as well for him that he wasn't counting in support from Mavoko, eh?

[MOON Ki]

Part of helping Africa is because they can't help themselves.

I think we are now getting closer to common ground: they certainly aren't helping them.   But I say they can---and should  & eventually must---help themselves.   It is not a matter of "strong medicine", and even witch-doctoring skills can, I am told, be learned.   

And secondly because the Africa poverty is troubling for anyone.

I doubt it.   But there seems to be that idea in Africa.  And it might explain why the African "leaders" keep  f**king around while at the same time vigorously begging.   The truth, however, is that there is some "Africa fatigue" settling in.      People are beginning to ask about helping people whose own leaders don't care to help; so it would be unwise to bank on the notion that Africa can forever rely on saidia, saidia, saidia.   

That should include citizens of US. I doubt US citizen will riot if Obama increase USAID budget from 2% to 5%. They haven't rioted when US has helped Isreal.

Israel certainly does get the lion's share of US aid.  But there's a feeling, right or wrong,  that it's trying to do for itself.  One  certainly never sees photos of diseased, half-starved Israeli children undergoing death-by-flies while the "leaders" are living it up.  On the contrary, just a few days ago:

"Former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert convicted of accepting bribes in Holyland case ..."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.582901

The fundamental question has to be whether any more aid would be put to good use.   If, as you say, Africans "can't help themselves", then it would be throwing more money into a latrine (if one could be found).   Hardly a bright idea.

And that is general image you see in 95% of rural sub-saharan africa...uniform poverty.

Which problem will not be solved by handouts from anywhere.   Especially when most of those get eaten in the capital!

When they see that...their human compassion will drive them to do more. Obama has to make them SEE IT. He has to talk ABOUT IT. He has to make sure AFRICA POVERTY is global issue...for people to grapple with..including all the problems you've identified.

Poverty is a global issue; that much is well known.    Obama has spoken about it and also in relation to Africa.  Is there something in particular you think he should have said but did not?

But the fundamental problem is this: Let us imagine that Obama had, say, a clear 12 months in which he could talk 24/7, 365/per on poverty in Africa.    And let us also imagine that the entire US media was equally devoted to portraying grim images of Africa.  How would any of that make a difference by way of long-term solutions?   

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

That is clever play of words that exactly mean Africa never needed help. Africa need help. What sort of help. Those helping Africa have to keep learning on what works and what doesn't work. We cannot condemn people just because of Moi or Mobutu. The quality of Africa leadership is poor and that is EXPECTED. It is not strange that we have really poor grade leadership right thro the systems. It is part of the problem that requires fixing.

The US and other donors have to keep learning what works and what doesn't. Evidence shows the AID industry has failed.But doesn't mean you give up. For example,has US tried something else...like paying an extra premium for any raw material from Africa...aware it's coming from a place where poverty levels are shockingly unacceptable in this rich planet? US for many years has been Africa biggest raw material importer..and yet the continue to EXPLOIT Africa through really cheap and doggy contracts. Has Obama made this an issue to US companies? How about corruption emanating from American companies operating in Africa?

How about building infrastructure using China model where it very hard for corrupt kenyan gov to siphon off all the funds..and at least deliver some key roads, water projects, sewage systems,railway lines??????????? Hasn't China managed to deliver despite and in spite of graft!

Obama is a brilliant guy with first experience some of world's worst form of poverty having spent time in Siaya. He should and can do more.

Obama instead has done nothing...except if we go by Moonki quietly improve on Kenya's funding of Bush Jnr Key initiative for Africa...such as global fund for Malaria, HIV and TB.

Compared to what previous great president have done..like ending colonialism, slavery, civil rights for blacks, ending dictatorship in Africa and creating institutions like WB, US peace corps, name them...Obama has done nothing.

Give me George Bush Jnr or Clinton any time any day...Obama Jnr the joker doesn't deserve any welcome when he brings his uninvited self to Nairobi.

Uhuru can make Africa really proud by snubbing him.

Pundit,

I don't think MOON Ki is questioning that people need help.  Africa definitely needs help in many areas.

But you have to remember that for the better part of 50 years, they had a blank check, no questions asked, courtesy of the cold war. 

What did they produce?  Mobutu, Moi, Mengistu etc.  Somalia had more missiles than grains of rice.  Why should Obama or any other outsider feel responsible for that?

I understand that need for help.  In deserving cases.  Maybe Obama should be more generous, because compared to smaller countries in Scandinavia, per capita US aid to Africa is peanuts.  I could make that argument.  But not because Africa has shown it is deserving - at least the leaders. 

I read somewhere, I don't have the info handy - maybe you do, about an obscene number put out there of how much is lost in corruption every year in Kenya.  In a country starved of money, those kind of things should bother one more than Obama's intransigence.  Even in the US, he is not looking out for Wanjiku.  He looks after American corporations his rhetoric notwithstanding.

That said, I think one area he can immediately make an impact is in Business Process Outsourcing.  Kenyans speak better English than Indians, a decently educated unemployed population, yet India has quite literally hogged that sector.  Obama can make a pitch for Kenyans in that arena.

[MOON Ki]

I understand that need for help.  In deserving cases.  Maybe Obama should be more generous, because compared to smaller countries in Scandinavia, per capita US aid to Africa is peanuts.  I could make that argument.  But not because Africa has shown it is deserving - at least the leaders. 

It might be true that per-capita US aid to Africa is less than that of other countries, but I would say that what really matters on the end is the total amount, and the US economy so large that even a tiny percent amounts to serious money.   

I read somewhere, I don't have the info handy - maybe you do, about an obscene number put out there of how much is lost in corruption every year in Kenya.

The figures are staggering in all respects.   Take a look at the figures being bandied about in just the recent corruption scandals.   Now, how much would it cost to provide all Kenyans with a place to take a shit?   How much would it take to provide all Kenyans with clean drinking water?   The figures are pitifully small, yet nobody in Kenya's leadership seems to care.   There is no "I see it with my own eyes!" glamour to that, but look at the effect of those "small" things.

Places like Kenya need tough love, not more handouts.

That said, I think one area he can immediately make an impact is in Business Process Outsourcing.  Kenyans speak better English than Indians, a decently educated unemployed population, yet India has quite literally hogged that sector.  Obama can make a pitch for Kenyans in that arena.

On the face of it, that's a good idea.   Obama can make the pitch, but is Kenya ready for it?   Places like India and China (especially) have done quite well from their relatively low labour costs.   Now, as China's labour costs have increased, places that used to outsource to China---and even China itself!---are outsourcing to other places.   Step forward Indonesia, Thailand, Vietnam, etc.   

I have never heard of, say, Kenya doing anything to take advantage of the rising labour costs in China.  But there seems to be no end to "look at what the Chinese are doing for us! I see that infrastructure with your own eyes"!

Why not Uhuru or one of his flunkies go around telling the world about how great it would be to outsource to Kenya?   Imagine if Amina Mohammed was selling that message with the vim and vigour she used when it was about Uhuru at the ICC!

I have seen Kenyan-government begging delegations all over the world.  Where are the ones hustling for business?   Yes, Kenyans are well-placed for the type of thing you write about.  But what exactly are they doing about it? 

An old saying: ""The mountain won't come to Muhammad, therefore Muhammad must go to the mountain."

I see little point in Obama going out of his way to promote things that not even Africans themselves appear to be particularly keen on.

a decently educated unemployed population

Hmm.  I wonder what  Pundit will say to that one: on the Asian-bank, Kung-Fu-will-save-us thread, he confidently asserted that Kenya has more than enough jobs for those who are willing to work.   

[Bella]

Pundit, you are a funny guy!   You did not quite answer the "preliminary" question I asked, but let me try with another one:

Why should anyone bother to try to help those who don't seem keen to help themselves?

I can think of a few reasons why "the world" should help Africa:

1) It is simply better for every one in the long run. A bigger, better, reliable economic and security partner for all those rich countries that now control the world.
2) A substantial amount of wealth in Western countries has come from raping the continent, so its only fair.
3) It is human. Humans in a position to help humans in trouble should simply do so; we are not sociopaths, as every disaster that elicits an outpouring of help globally, predictably shows is the human way.

I don't share all of Pundit's criticisms of obama but I share his frustration with diasporans whose bitterness about the weaknesses of our people in comparison to the bazungu brings them to the point of contempt.  Sometimes it seems some of you would trade skins if it were possible. You are basically questioning why the rest of the world should help your own people just because 90% of them do not share the enlightenment that your education and exposure have afforded you.

I understand your defense of what Obama has done, which I don't personally know enough to counter (my impression is much like Pundits, that past American presidents have done more, but I think its because Obama's hands were tied precisely due to his heritage and he probably couldn't do as much as a white man without raising eyebrows in the shark-tank that is American politics). But I don't understand statements like this, implying there is no moral responsibility for humans with better fortunes to assist those dealt worse hands. Yes, Africans should do better for themselves and slowly but surely they are learning. Only a century ago, majority of us couldn't read or write and hadn't the vaguest idea yet that the world was round and not flat, and much bigger than we ever dreamed, still thought lightening was caused by a red-rooster somewhere. We are building nations slowly from a very tribal and pre-historic base. We are far from modern. Surely, Africa needs time to get its cultural act together so that we can get our institutions in order and no longer need the help of other people? Children are born then walk and stumble. We are not yet running.

[RV Pundit]

Now that is someone whose opinion is not clouded by hatred that Kenyans or African have elected leaders they do not like; Moonki bitterness I think is grounded on the fact that Kenyans elected UhuRuto instead his preffered candidate.Africa has made tremendous progress the last couple of years[which indicator you look at-governance,democratic systems,corruption]  and Obama had a chance to accelerate that growth by doing more than the poorer Chinese have done in the same period..but he blew it. He blew it by being afraid of US domestic politics. He has spent his two terms running away from his heritage.

As the sunset draws on his regime..he now rans to Kenya looking for a big hug!

Compared to what Bush Jnr, Clinton, Bush snr and the likes of JFK have done for Africa..Obama is complete total failure. No signature initiative for Africa.  White presidents have turned out more compassionate about Africa than Obama the black first global president.

There is poverty all over the world but the epicenter of that poverty is sub-saharan Africa...and for me it a global issue just like Iran Nuclear crisis or Isreal-Palestinian conflict or Ukraina-Russia proxy wars are.

The world cannot sit up as Africans  die from starvation, bush wars,diseases and poverty (although less now than some decades ago).

Obama legacy as far as Africa is concerned is in tatters.

I can think of a few reasons why "the world" should help Africa:

1) It is simply better for every one in the long run. A bigger, better, reliable economic and security partner for all those rich countries that now control the world.
2) A substantial amount of wealth in Western countries has come from raping the continent, so its only fair.
3) It is human. Humans in a position to help humans in trouble should simply do so; we are not sociopaths, as every disaster that elicits an outpouring of help globally, predictably shows is the human way.

I don't share all of Pundit's criticisms of obama but I share his frustration with diasporans whose bitterness about the weaknesses of our people in comparison to the bazungu brings them to the point of contempt.  Sometimes it seems some of you would trade skins if it were possible. You are basically questioning why the rest of the world should help your own people just because 90% of them do not share the enlightenment that your education and exposure have afforded you.

I understand your defense of what Obama has done, which I don't personally know enough to counter (my impression is much like Pundits, that past American presidents have done more, but I think its because Obama's hands were tied precisely due to his heritage and he probably couldn't do as much as a white man without raising eyebrows in the shark-tank that is American politics). But I don't understand statements like this, implying there is no moral responsibility for humans with better fortunes to assist those dealt worse hands. Yes, Africans should do better for themselves and slowly but surely they are learning. Only a century ago, majority of us couldn't read or write and hadn't the vaguest idea yet that the world was round and not flat, and much bigger than we ever dreamed, still thought lightening was caused by a red-rooster somewhere. We are building nations slowly from a very tribal and pre-historic base. We are far from modern. Surely, Africa needs time to get its cultural act together so that we can get our institutions in order and no longer need the help of other people? Children are born then walk and stumble. We are not yet running.

[RV Pundit]

You're going into the mechanics of helping Africa. There are challenges of bad leadership, runaway corruption and voters who just won't elect your preferred candidates...but that is why Obama is world leader...so he can figure out how to help Africa despite all that. Chinese have figured it out. They can give the Africa politician his 10% cut...but generally they do not let Mwafrika  politician get the yuan...it goes directly to a Chinese contractor..and they deliver projects that affect lots of poor Africans on time and on cost.

Obama and USAID have to keep refining the mechanics of helping Africa.

To advocate for NOT HELPING AFRICA is plain evil nonsense. Help Africa intelligently and genuinely . Figure out how to do so.

 If current AID model has failed (and it has failed)...try other ideas... private sector investment (look at MPESA..Vodafone/DFID deal)..Chinese model that seem to work...try investing in research into trophical disease, farming and name it....I doubt the African politician will reject HIV AIDS drug engineered in US labs..one man Bill Gates is doing so..find ways to intelligently help the world  poor.Why can't Obama not do 10 times more than Bill Gates...with his power!!

And please stop looking at issue from absolute senses...Africa has made tremendous progress the last few years [and I celebrate that progress)...but from a very low base.

Part of helping Africa is because they can't help themselves.

I think we are now getting closer to common ground: they certainly aren't helping them.   But I say they can---and should  & eventually must---help themselves.   It is not a matter of "strong medicine", and even witch-doctoring skills can, I am told, be learned.   

And secondly because the Africa poverty is troubling for anyone.

I doubt it.   But there seems to be that idea in Africa.  And it might explain why the African "leaders" keep  f**king around while at the same time vigorously begging.   The truth, however, is that there is some "Africa fatigue" settling in.      People are beginning to ask about helping people whose own leaders don't care to help; so it would be unwise to bank on the notion that Africa can forever rely on saidia, saidia, saidia.   

That should include citizens of US. I doubt US citizen will riot if Obama increase USAID budget from 2% to 5%. They haven't rioted when US has helped Isreal.

Israel certainly does get the lion's share of US aid.  But there's a feeling, right or wrong,  that it's trying to do for itself.  One  certainly never sees photos of diseased, half-starved Israeli children undergoing death-by-flies while the "leaders" are living it up.  On the contrary, just a few days ago:

"Former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert convicted of accepting bribes in Holyland case ..."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.582901

The fundamental question has to be whether any more aid would be put to good use.   If, as you say, Africans "can't help themselves", then it would be throwing more money into a latrine (if one could be found).   Hardly a bright idea.

And that is general image you see in 95% of rural sub-saharan africa...uniform poverty.

Which problem will not be solved by handouts from anywhere.   Especially when most of those get eaten in the capital!

When they see that...their human compassion will drive them to do more. Obama has to make them SEE IT. He has to talk ABOUT IT. He has to make sure AFRICA POVERTY is global issue...for people to grapple with..including all the problems you've identified.

Poverty is a global issue; that much is well known.    Obama has spoken about it and also in relation to Africa.  Is there something in particular you think he should have said but did not?

But the fundamental problem is this: Let us imagine that Obama had, say, a clear 12 months in which he could talk 24/7, 365/per on poverty in Africa.    And let us also imagine that the entire US media was equally devoted to portraying grim images of Africa.  How would any of that make a difference by way of long-term solutions?   

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Bella,

I rather look at the argument holistically.  Looked at that way, MOON Ki is advocating tough love.  As opposed to no love.  I cannot just ignore that part of the argument.

I see him mention corruption.  Vehement defense of leaders charged with mass atrocities.  Appointment of sleazebags into cushy jobs...

The suggestion that concern about and insistence on fixing that instead of waiting for outside help is a sign of self hate is ridiculous IMO.  That in itself is far more helpful than foreign aid I think.

In any case, it seems like US aid to Kenya is at an all time high.  Interestingly this has happened under the Obama administration.

There are indeed areas that Obama's influence can help such the BPO I mention earlier.  That only needs a conducive environment with things like a reliable supply of electricity; maybe the US can help on that front too.

[Bella]

Bella,

I see him mention corruption.  Vehement defense of leaders charged with mass atrocities.  Appointment of sleazebags into cushy jobs...

The suggestion that concern about and insistence on fixing that instead of waiting for outside help is a sign of self hate is ridiculous IMO.  That in itself is far more helpful than foreign aid I think.

It IS ridiculous but I've said no such thing. Like I said, Africans must do better and I haven't at all opposed the suggestion. My focus: The idea that the West or the World has no moral responsibility to help. Or that it is wrong for someone to point out that they haven't done what they could have to help. Take the R2P doctrine, for example: You are a believer in R2P, yes? Do you believe the World has no moral responsibility to intervene in the event of imminent genocide if that circumstance has been brought on by those faults you point out, where we can say "it is the fault" of those people for creating the situation? Of course not. Because regardless of the faults/causes, we are each others keeper on a certain level. That there is a duty of Africans to pull their stuff together does not exclude a secondary responsibility of the rest of the World to help. Their duty is not primary. But where the responsible government has failed, they should do what they can. They do a lot because I believe they believe in such responsibility themselves. About Obama,like I said before, I don't know enough to comment though my general impression has been that of Pundit. What works/not, that's not something I can speak on with confidence. My comment here was mainly about the rebuke to Pundit for expecting those most powerful to do something about the situation in Africa. I don't think anything is wrong with that expectation.  With great power comes great responsibility, to borrow from a movie, and the fact is those most powerful do have some moral responsibility in a society/community. It is not a legally enforceable duty but it is a moral one.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Bella,

I see him mention corruption.  Vehement defense of leaders charged with mass atrocities.  Appointment of sleazebags into cushy jobs...

The suggestion that concern about and insistence on fixing that instead of waiting for outside help is a sign of self hate is ridiculous IMO.  That in itself is far more helpful than foreign aid I think.

It IS ridiculous but I've said no such thing. Like I said, Africans must do better and I haven't at all opposed the suggestion. My focus: The idea that the West or the World has no moral responsibility to help. Or that it is wrong for someone to point out that they haven't done what they could have to help. Take the R2P doctrine, for example: You are a believer in R2P, yes? Do you believe the World has no moral responsibility to intervene in the event of imminent genocide if that circumstance has been brought on by those faults you point out, where we can say "it is the fault" of those people for creating the situation? Of course not. Because regardless of the faults/causes, we are each others keeper on a certain level. That there is a duty of Africans to pull their stuff together does not exclude a secondary responsibility of the rest of the World to help. Their duty is not primary. But where the responsible government has failed, they should do what they can. They do a lot because I believe they believe in such responsibility themselves. About Obama,like I said before, I don't know enough to comment though my general impression has been that of Pundit. What works/not, that's not something I can speak on with confidence. My comment here was mainly about the rebuke to Pundit for expecting those most powerful to do something about the situation in Africa. I don't think anything is wrong with that expectation.  With great power comes great responsibility, to borrow from a movie, and the fact is those most powerful do have some moral responsibility in a society/community. It is not a legally enforceable duty but it is a moral one.

I see R2P as not applicable in this case.  Unless one declares economic crimes among the list of crimes that can lead to suspension of sovereignty.  You give up your sovereignty if we are to continue giving you blank checks year in year out even as you continue cocking up or something along those lines.

The idea that people can continue to deserve sympathy regardless I don't buy it.  Think of a woman, battered repeatedly by her hubby, who keeps going back.  You cannot divorce the merit for help from accountability.

The truth is I see Pundit and MOON Ki emphasizing opposite sides of the same coin.

[MOON Ki]

Just to be clear, nowhere have I argued that the West should not help; my basic argument has been that Africans should do more to help themselves.   I also have no problem with the notion of moral responsibility; so we may assume that I accept that.   But:

(a) I would reiterate what Terminator has stated.   The moral responsibility to help cannot be separated from the responsibilities of those who seek to be helped.   

Take, for example, corruption in Kenya.    Does the moral responsibility to help Kenya mean that people in other countries should work hard and pay their taxes so that some of it keep going to others who continually fail to be responsible with any money?

(b) No amount of external help will result in long-lasting fundamental changes in Africa unless Africans themselves do what is necessary.   Again taking corruption in Kenya as an example, nothing the external world does will really solve that problem.   The solutions will have to come from Kenyans themselves.  Look at tribalism, the basis on which Kenyans elect their leaders and so on?   Can any external help really change that?   I doubt it.  Kenyans will have to do it for themselves, when they feel ready to do so.

(c) There are limits to what anyone is prepared to do, whether in the name of moral responsibility or not.   One can insist indefinitely that the West or wherever should do more to help, out of moral responsibility, but is there any indication that the West will do anything that is significantly different from what it is doing now or has been doing in the last 50 years?   I don't see any signs of that.  So one can argue forever that they should do this more and than more, but that alone won't make it happen.

Where, then, does that leave us?

If Africans want the next 50 years to be different from the last, then, first and foremost, they themselves will have to do things differently.  Neither West nor East will do it for them.

[Bella]

I see R2P as not applicable in this case.  Unless one declares economic crimes among the list of crimes that can lead to suspension of sovereignty.  You give up your sovereignty if we are to continue giving you blank checks year in year out even as you continue cocking up or something along those lines.

The idea that people can continue to deserve sympathy regardless I don't buy it.  Think of a woman, battered repeatedly by her hubby, who keeps going back.  You cannot divorce the merit for help from accountability.

The truth is I see Pundit and MOON Ki emphasizing opposite sides of the same coin.

R2P was an analogy. If you believe it, the idea that others don't have a moral responsibility because "it was your fault" goes out the window. You obviously accept that others do have a responsibility on a certain level. Moreover, it has nothing to do with giving up sovereignty, it is not colonialism, it is taking over the responsibility to protect the population when a government goes MIA. I don't buy the battered woman analogy,since we do continue to try and help the woman as far as possible, understanding that a lot can explain the situation besides "she's asking for it". Neither does the "merit for help divorced from accountability" make sense; you are dealing with a highly unenlightened populace. You might as well refuse to help pastoralists dying in famines for not "learning their lesson" their first time and continuing to expect sympathy.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

I see R2P as not applicable in this case.  Unless one declares economic crimes among the list of crimes that can lead to suspension of sovereignty.  You give up your sovereignty if we are to continue giving you blank checks year in year out even as you continue cocking up or something along those lines.

The idea that people can continue to deserve sympathy regardless I don't buy it.  Think of a woman, battered repeatedly by her hubby, who keeps going back.  You cannot divorce the merit for help from accountability.

The truth is I see Pundit and MOON Ki emphasizing opposite sides of the same coin.

R2P was an analogy. If you believe it, the idea that others don't have a moral responsibility because "it was your fault" goes out the window. You obviously accept that others do have a responsibility on a certain level. Moreover, it has nothing to do with giving up sovereignty, it is not colonialism, it is taking over the responsibility to protect the population when a government goes MIA. I don't buy the battered woman analogy,since we do continue to try and help the woman as far as possible, understanding that a lot can explain the situation besides "she's asking for it". Neither does the "merit for help divorced from accountability" make sense; you are dealing with a highly unenlightened populace. You might as well refuse to help pastoralists dying in famines for not "learning their lesson" their first time and continuing to expect sympathy.

I believe in helping those that merit it.  You can always point out exceptions to that rule, but they are few.  If a government is corrupt, for 50 years, they don't merit any external help.  If the population loves their government, they should lay on the bed they make.

[MOON Ki]

You might as well refuse to help pastoralists dying in famines for not "learning their lesson" their first time and continuing to expect sympathy.

Responsibility is at different levels.  The first thing to ask is what the national government is doing to stop these endless cycles of starvation.  Or is the idea that the West will forever keep sending over yellow maize? Feeding their people is one of the things that African governments ought to start taking seriously.  The people they beg from made that a high priority right from the git-go.

At the individual level, if---and it hasn't happened yet---said pastoralists have over the years been given numerous options on how avoid starvation, but they have not paid any attention, then they must shoulder some of the responsibility for their situation.   Otherwise, what long-term solution would you propose?  Keep shedding tears and sending begging messages to the West?

In so many ways, Africa needs to move from this endless "oh poor us!   things are so tough!  oh we always need help!  oh! oh! oh!". 

We are sovereign and independent!   We can take care of ourselves!  You are all declining powers!  And then the turn-around, with oh by the way we don't have enough food, please help.   That's just mindless stupidity.  And it goes a long way in explaining how Africa fits in some "global visions":

"I have many times listened to the Big Brain and read much of his writing. (The book I commented on here was probably Strategic Vision.) Africa is rarely considered. In his opinion, it's "in the bag", as one might say. As he sees it, African countries are hopeless and lead by weak, disorganized, and self-destructive leaders. That, in his view, makes it easy to control. To the extent that he is concerned with Africa, it is how best to share it with China. For him, the question is this: if two great warriors have cornered a deer, do they fight each other so that the winner gets all, or do they quietly share it? He prefers the latter. Should the Africans have any say in this? Absolutely not, in his view: they have not given the slightest hint that they care, and why would a deer about to become dinner have any say in the matter?  Theirs is to dig stuff out of the ground, send it over for value-adding, and then buy it back at relatively exhorbitant rates.  (Why they themselves cannot do the value-adding is an irrelevant question for the purposes of global control.)   

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