Author Topic: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo  (Read 42680 times)

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #80 on: February 20, 2015, 06:51:24 PM »
Google some more..and show me one USAID project that can dream of such IMPACT.
1.5% of GDP growth...in 53B or about GDP..is alot of money..added to the economy.



Read more at: http://www.ventures-africa.com/2015/01/standard-gauge-railway-to-raise-kenyas-gdp-by-1-5-percent/

Let's forget USAID for a minute.    I see that there you have quoted Kenyatta.   If you back and carefully read what I wrote, you will find this:

"Please provide some concrete basis for it (i.e. not "I heard it")".


Anyway, once again, here is what I challenged you on:

"add 2% GDP every yr..for next 3yrs"

Stop wriggling and address that!

Quote
1.6% or 1.5% is rounded off to 2%... and these are figures that i keep in memory

Nice one.   0.4% or 0.5% relative to Kenya's GDP is not trivial enough to say, oh just round it.    In memory?  And there you were, directing me to Google and fishing up some other, funny 2%

But that aside, what about the 3 years?   Where did you get that one?   
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #81 on: February 20, 2015, 06:56:36 PM »
You're just being petty coz you're now running on empty. I get figures from reading newspapers and remembering them. I have a day and night job....it's not to remember commas and decimal points in everything i read.

I remember reading several articles over the last few yrs claiming SGR will add 2% (learn to round off) based on projection by several institutions that does such kind of things...

You clearly had never heard of any such thing....but here we are going back and forth on 1.6% or 1.5%..

Do you have anything more you'd love to tell us about USAID or FTF?

Show us really impactful project in Healthcare that put to shame 1.5000000000000% that China will help us add to our GDP.

But that aside, what about the 3 years?   Where did you get that one?   

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #82 on: February 20, 2015, 07:02:01 PM »
I remember reading several articles over the last few yrs claiming SGR will add 2% (learn to round off) based on projection by several institutions that does such kind of things...

One more time:

(a) Not "I  remember" .... concrete basis, please!


And this one:

But that aside, what about the 3 years?   Where did you get that one?   
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #83 on: February 20, 2015, 07:05:40 PM »
Officially you've nothing more to debate on this topic. I guess you've realized that China is doing hell lot more than your vaunted USAID and getting lot more impact, lot more love from kenyans and politicians of course.

I am suprised you haven't yet picked on my typos, grammars and such nonsense.

I remember reading several articles over the last few yrs claiming SGR will add 2% (learn to round off) based on projection by several institutions that does such kind of things...

One more time:

(a) Not "I  remember" .... concrete basis, please!


And this one:

But that aside, what about the 3 years?   Where did you get that one?   


Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #84 on: February 20, 2015, 07:09:56 PM »
Officially you've nothing more to debate on this topic. I guess you've realized that China is doing hell lot more than your vaunted USAID and getting lot more impact, lot more love from kenyans and politicians of course.

I don't know if love from Kenyan politicians is something anyone should even acknowledge.    Anyways ....

One more try:    :D :) :D

But that aside, what about the 3 years?   Where did you get that one?   
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #85 on: February 20, 2015, 07:13:59 PM »
Sound like bla de bla of a bleating goat.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #86 on: February 20, 2015, 07:25:30 PM »
Sound like bla de bla of a bleating goat.

He, he, he ... that's exactly what I too have been thinking!   :D :) :D
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline Mr Mansfield.

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #87 on: February 21, 2015, 11:46:53 AM »
Google some more..and show me one USAID project that can dream of such IMPACT.
1.5% of GDP growth...in 53B or about GDP..is alot of money..added to the economy.



Read more at: http://www.ventures-africa.com/2015/01/standard-gauge-railway-to-raise-kenyas-gdp-by-1-5-percent/

Your are spitting confusion,

There is a difference between:

(a) Development finance which deals with project finance,those are things like SGR/Chinese,Greenfield terminal/Chinese & west,Mombasa port/Japanese,Geothermal/west these are projects which depend on who the regime chooses to award the tender,

(b) Aid like the USAID or DFID activities in health dairy micro-insurance etc etc these west NGOs use these projects to look for credit markets for their banks like KCB USA DAIRY scheme, or market for their companies Livestock insurance,AGOA coffee supply chain,USAID health initiative which led to the GE health project in Kenya or Climate change initiatives which led to wind and energy projects,food security where usa companies get tenders to feed hungry people in Africa etc etc or reforms to allow GMOs for Monsanto or dupont,

Chinese major focus is development finance since its easy and guaranteed credit,AID is mostly private sector based,nobody is here to help,

Without Prejudice.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #88 on: February 21, 2015, 03:33:05 PM »
You're too wet behind the ears to engage in any constructive debate with me.
Your are spitting confusion,

There is a difference between:

(a) Development finance which deals with project finance,those are things like SGR/Chinese,Greenfield terminal/Chinese & west,Mombasa port/Japanese,Geothermal/west these are projects which depend on who the regime chooses to award the tender,

(b) Aid like the USAID or DFID activities in health dairy micro-insurance etc etc these west NGOs use these projects to look for credit markets for their banks like KCB USA DAIRY scheme, or market for their companies Livestock insurance,AGOA coffee supply chain,USAID health initiative which led to the GE health project in Kenya or Climate change initiatives which led to wind and energy projects,food security where usa companies get tenders to feed hungry people in Africa etc etc or reforms to allow GMOs for Monsanto or dupont,

Chinese major focus is development finance since its easy and guaranteed credit,AID is mostly private sector based,nobody is here to help,

Without Prejudice.

Offline Mr Mansfield.

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #89 on: February 21, 2015, 04:08:33 PM »
You're too wet behind the ears to engage in any constructive debate with me.

That does not matter,the most important thing is that I've educated you today on the difference between development finance and Aid,otherwise,you would have continued repeating the same nonsense,

Without Prejudice.

Offline Reticent Solipsist

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #90 on: March 05, 2015, 10:12:04 AM »
China continues to develop without all that..and so has many other countries including Malaysia and most of South Asians. China managed to pull out nearly 500M out of poverty in a single generation (never been done before)....through reforms in agriculture and of course huge mega infrastructure project.

There is really no need for debate on what development really is....you'll know development when you see one.

I aver that MOON Ki has captured best the concept of development. In fact, I would go so far as to state that the centrality of sustainable development and its convergence with other factors of development, that is, respect for the rule of law, pluralism, public accountability, human rights and market principles are the essential conditions for just, equitable and enduring economic development.

China didn't develop on account of huge mega infrastructure as you insinuate but rather because Nixon pact of 1972 courtesy of the exigencies of Cold War politics essentially gave China Western know-how (economic, legal and political customs), easy and cheap credit, access to western technology, and most important, a ready market for Chinese exports. In other words, China was able to pursue an export oriented industrialization model at very little cost domestically. Later on, I believe during the Clinton presidency, China was allowed into the WTO even though it was clear that they were not adhering to the tenets of free trade but pursuing a mercantilist approach. And during this same period China continued stealing intellectual property (principally from the US and to a lesser extent Japan and Germany), thereby saving herself vast sums that they steered into infrastructure development --- these examples illustrate China as a classic economics case of a free-rider.

Now you mention Malaysia and South Asian countries. Bad examples. The leadership in Malaysia was relatively enlightened--even after one factors for the racially divisive affirmative action policies favoring the Bhumiputras at the expense of ethnic Chinese-Malaysians or Indian Malaysians. Bottom line: Mahatir was conscious of building a prosperous nation with functioning schools, hospitals, and other infrastructure. Singapore bettered their neighbor. Indonesia under Suharto was a corupt and venal place but one could still see the fruits of economic growth percolating to the masses below.

So back to where we began. Development that is predicated on infrastructure as you seem to allude to can NOT foster real development in democratic Kenya. The Kenyan populace of 2015 know what development should be: democratic rights -- integral part being human rights; freedom of expression; rights to assembly; right to defend themselves from State oppression, and many others that i won't delve into.

Remember: Replicability is not reproducibility.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #91 on: March 05, 2015, 03:56:17 PM »
Whatever one is inclined to say about all those Asian countries, the first thing they figured out was how to feed themselves. 

This one will be a familiar story:

"The grim annual hunger statistics have been posted once again. About 10 million Kenyans face food shortages at any given time. Currently, about two million people face chronic food scarcity.

These are bare statistics: the grim reality behind them will soon hit us in the form of images of emaciated children, women, and men.

Our development agenda is contradictory: recurrent hunger has been in the background of 15 years of pumping trillions of shillings in infrastructural expansion, yet strategies meant to ensure food security, such as the one million acre Galana-Kalalu irrigation programme, are handicapped by lack of funds.

Of what use is 5,000 kilometres of paved roads, nuclear energy, or standard gauge railway if some Kenyans have nothing to eat? What could be done to remedy this?"

http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/Food-Security-Hunger-Famine-Kenya/-/440808/2642596/-/11eqrw5z/-/index.html

Accompanying photo of folks waiting for food handouts:



MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Mr Mansfield.

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #92 on: March 05, 2015, 05:31:27 PM »
but rather because Nixon pact of 1972

No,

China developed from 1978 when Den xiaoping took over and switched from collective ownership to private ownership,that attracted investment and massive growth to present day,

Without Prejudice.

Offline Reticent Solipsist

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #93 on: March 10, 2015, 05:53:50 AM »
but rather because Nixon pact of 1972

No,

China developed from 1978 when Den xiaoping took over and switched from collective ownership to private ownership,that attracted investment and massive growth to present day,

Without Prejudice.

Your statement is true but false. Any fair assessment of the rapprochement between the United States and China must be viewed in its historical context, that is, it's a continuum in analysis. Practically every historian and economist of note looks at that 1972 Beijing meeting between Nixon-Mao-Zhou Enlai as the seminal meeting that ensured that China began the process of becoming deeply integrated into the world economic and financial system. So I would venture that 1972 precedes 1978.

Now, of course, I have to rightfully give it to Deng Xiaoping as the man who instituted and implemented China's long overdue economic reforms aka the architect of China's economic renaissance.

P.S. I note that you truncated my statement to give credence to what you are trying to put forth.


Offline Mr Mansfield.

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #94 on: March 10, 2015, 01:59:55 PM »
but rather because Nixon pact of 1972

No,

China developed from 1978 when Den xiaoping took over and switched from collective ownership to private ownership,that attracted investment and massive growth to present day,

Without Prejudice.

Your statement is true but false. Any fair assessment of the rapprochement between the United States and China must be viewed in its historical context, that is, it's a continuum in analysis. Practically every historian and economist of note looks at that 1972 Beijing meeting between Nixon-Mao-Zhou Enlai as the seminal meeting that ensured that China began the process of becoming deeply integrated into the world economic and financial system. So I would venture that 1972 precedes 1978.

Now, of course, I have to rightfully give it to Deng Xiaoping as the man who instituted and implemented China's long overdue economic reforms aka the architect of China's economic renaissance.

P.S. I note that you truncated my statement to give credence to what you are trying to put forth.




Why did then did we not see these economic reforms for 6 years after Nixon visit?

Its because Mao and his grouping never believed in free market.France educated Den Xiaoping (Who mao tzedong never liked and fired twice) conducted a civillian coup in a 1978 meeting and ousted Mao Tzedong communist remnants and immediately switched china from collectivism to private ownership and as they say,the rest is history.

Without Prejudice.


Offline Reticent Solipsist

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #95 on: March 12, 2015, 09:48:14 AM »
but rather because Nixon pact of 1972

No,

China developed from 1978 when Den xiaoping took over and switched from collective ownership to private ownership,that attracted investment and massive growth to present day,

Without Prejudice.

Your statement is true but false. Any fair assessment of the rapprochement between the United States and China must be viewed in its historical context, that is, it's a continuum in analysis. Practically every historian and economist of note looks at that 1972 Beijing meeting between Nixon-Mao-Zhou Enlai as the seminal meeting that ensured that China began the process of becoming deeply integrated into the world economic and financial system. So I would venture that 1972 precedes 1978.

Now, of course, I have to rightfully give it to Deng Xiaoping as the man who instituted and implemented China's long overdue economic reforms aka the architect of China's economic renaissance.

P.S. I note that you truncated my statement to give credence to what you are trying to put forth.




Why did then did we not see these economic reforms for 6 years after Nixon visit?

Its because Mao and his grouping never believed in free market.France educated Den Xiaoping (Who mao tzedong never liked and fired twice) conducted a civillian coup in a 1978 meeting and ousted Mao Tzedong communist remnants and immediately switched china from collectivism to private ownership and as they say,the rest is history.

Without Prejudice.

I think it's always good practice to put pressure on all your beliefs, social, political, economic, scientific, and philosophical. Take a position or proposition(s) and then try to separate what you know from what you believe.

I'll try.

As I've stated, the Nixon-Mao-Zhou Enlai 1972 meeting set the stage for rapprochment in Sino-American relations whose actual focus was more about Sino-Soviet relations, which were worsening by the day. Thereafter China began piecemeal reforms that also included China's slow integration into the world economic and financial system. What period? The period from 1973 into 1976. Did these nascent reforms go far enough? Absolutely not.

Enter Deng Xiaoping and his major reforms of 1978. Now go back to 1972 and understand why Deng Xiaoping was a beneficiary of the Nixon-Mao-Zhou Enlai detente 6 years earlier. Clearly Deng implemented what Mao and Zhou Enlai had recognized but failed to do - that China needed to exploit the West as a source of investments, technology and export markets, and the corollary being that the West + Japan realised the need to tap into the vast economic market that China presented and thus begun investing large sums of capital in Chinese factories and development.

In sum, your proposition remains true but false and that holds quite well.

P.S. There is a critical point that I've chosen not to include here.

Offline Mr Mansfield.

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #96 on: March 12, 2015, 01:23:52 PM »
the Nixon-Mao-Zhou Enlai 1972 meeting set the stage for rapprochment in Sino-American relations whose actual focus was more about Sino-Soviet relations, which were worsening by the day. Thereafter China began piecemeal reforms that also included China's slow integration into the world economic and financial system. What period? The period from 1973 into 1976. Did these nascent reforms go far enough? Absolutely not.

Enter Deng Xiaoping and his major reforms of 1978. Now go back to 1972 and understand why Deng Xiaoping was a beneficiary of the Nixon-Mao-Zhou Enlai detente 6 years earlier. Clearly Deng implemented what Mao and Zhou Enlai had recognized but failed to do - that China needed to exploit the West as a source of investments, technology and export markets, and the corollary being that the West + Japan realised the need to tap into the vast economic market that China presented and thus begun investing large sums of capital in Chinese factories and development.

(a) The Sino-Soviet difference was ideological,it was brought about in 1959-60 when Nikita Kruschev took over after the death of Joseph Stalin,Unlike Stalin,He chose a peaceful co-existence with the west and focus on economy,that is what angered Mao Tzedong,Like Stalin,He wanted an aggressive Soviet,the usa visit to China was out of being isolated from Asia and finding an end to the Vietnam war,remember after Nixon went to China,He then proceeded to Russia to deal with the Vietnam question,

(b) The Chinese Gang of Four.This gang was led by the fourth wife to Mao Tzedong,they were die hard communists,they were in power from mid 1960s until 1976 when they were ousted by the military from the ruling party and persecuted,that's why there was no single economic deal which Nixon would have signed with Mao or zhou because it was this gang of four which had real power.During the Mao regime,people like Deng xiaoping were suspended many times due to their capitalistic views,

(c) Deng Xiaoping,Its now evident for you to see that Deng xiaoping took over power through military and civilian coups between 1976-1978,Now lets go back to the 1960s,At that time,Mao tzedong launched several economic programs which failed,case in point is Great leap forward which led 20-40MN to starve while many became so poor,that was caused by collective ownership,when Deng xiaoping took over,he shifted China through a single stroke of pen from collectivization to private ownership,when you allow private ownership of property,everybody from mama mboga to an American investor invests,

Without Prejudice.

Offline Reticent Solipsist

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #97 on: March 13, 2015, 08:13:41 AM »
the Nixon-Mao-Zhou Enlai 1972 meeting set the stage for rapprochment in Sino-American relations whose actual focus was more about Sino-Soviet relations, which were worsening by the day. Thereafter China began piecemeal reforms that also included China's slow integration into the world economic and financial system. What period? The period from 1973 into 1976. Did these nascent reforms go far enough? Absolutely not.

Enter Deng Xiaoping and his major reforms of 1978. Now go back to 1972 and understand why Deng Xiaoping was a beneficiary of the Nixon-Mao-Zhou Enlai detente 6 years earlier. Clearly Deng implemented what Mao and Zhou Enlai had recognized but failed to do - that China needed to exploit the West as a source of investments, technology and export markets, and the corollary being that the West + Japan realised the need to tap into the vast economic market that China presented and thus begun investing large sums of capital in Chinese factories and development.

(a) The Sino-Soviet difference was ideological,it was brought about in 1959-60 when Nikita Kruschev took over after the death of Joseph Stalin,Unlike Stalin,He chose a peaceful co-existence with the west and focus on economy,that is what angered Mao Tzedong,Like Stalin,He wanted an aggressive Soviet,the usa visit to China was out of being isolated from Asia and finding an end to the Vietnam war,remember after Nixon went to China,He then proceeded to Russia to deal with the Vietnam question,

(b) The Chinese Gang of Four.This gang was led by the fourth wife to Mao Tzedong,they were die hard communists,they were in power from mid 1960s until 1976 when they were ousted by the military from the ruling party and persecuted,that's why there was no single economic deal which Nixon would have signed with Mao or zhou because it was this gang of four which had real power.During the Mao regime,people like Deng xiaoping were suspended many times due to their capitalistic views,

(c) Deng Xiaoping,Its now evident for you to see that Deng xiaoping took over power through military and civilian coups between 1976-1978,Now lets go back to the 1960s,At that time,Mao tzedong launched several economic programs which failed,case in point is Great leap forward which led 20-40MN to starve while many became so poor,that was caused by collective ownership,when Deng xiaoping took over,he shifted China through a single stroke of pen from collectivization to private ownership,when you allow private ownership of property,everybody from mama mboga to an American investor invests,

Without Prejudice.

Now this is getting interesting. Particularly your point (c), which was the basis of my postcript above. Care to flesh out this point further?