Trinity Doctrine

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This is arguably one of the most common and least debated doctrines in Christendom.  Nowhere does the Bible talk about trinity. There are mentions of the Godhead in the Bible, but never trinity. So where did it come from?

Acts 17:29
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[vooke]

Good question(s)
Replace Trinity with 'investigative judgement' and restate it again

[GeeMail]

Read again. Investigative judgment does not fall under the "most common, least debated" doctrines in Christendom. We can tackle that once we are done with trinity.

Do you believe in the trinity doctrine? Why or why not?

[vooke]

Trinity and Investigative Judgement....both are jargon...the Bible too

Walk me through what you mean by trinity and I will tell you whether it's junk or BS.

[GeeMail]

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

"According to this central mystery of most Christian faiths,[8] there is only one God in three persons: while distinct from one another in their relations of origin (as the Fourth Lateran Council declared, "it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds") and in their relations with one another, they are stated to be one in all else, co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial, and "each is God, whole and entire".[9] Accordingly, the whole work of creation and grace is seen as a single operation common to all three divine persons, in which each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, so that all things are "from the Father", "through the Son" and "in the Holy Spirit".[10]"

This is the common understanding of the doctrine of trinity. Although it is not debated much, there are major controversies about it. The article pretty much sums it up, although  it is heavily bias towards trinitarianism.

[vooke]

I hear you.
I subscribe to most aspects highlighted in that article, others am still formulating

[Little Bella]

DailyBread, I thought Adventists were Trinitarian, unlike JWs who are basically Arian. Which one are you?

[Omollo]

I believe trinitarianism is blasphemy period

[GeeMail]

Ka-Bella thanks for reviving the trinity discussion.

What do you believe about the trinity? Please quote chapter and verse. In the Sabbath thread you equated your views to those of Rome. Is your belief your own or Rome's?

If you don't mind, please answer on that thread, I'm genuinely curious (and surprised) to hear that you don't believe in the Trinity? Personally, monotheism (One God), Trinity (Three divine persons in one divine substance/God) and Hypostatic union (Jesus is true God and true man) is how I (and the Church) distinguish Christian groups from non-Christian ones.

Which is strange because you had had a problem when I used non-magisterium sources to make a point about Rome. Are you a member of Rome's magisterium?

[Ka-Bella]

Ka-Bella thanks for reviving the trinity discussion.

What do you believe about the trinity? Please quote chapter and verse. In the Sabbath thread you equated your views to those of Rome. Is your belief your own or Rome's?

If you don't mind, please answer on that thread, I'm genuinely curious (and surprised) to hear that you don't believe in the Trinity? Personally, monotheism (One God), Trinity (Three divine persons in one divine substance/God) and Hypostatic union (Jesus is true God and true man) is how I (and the Church) distinguish Christian groups from non-Christian ones.

Which is strange because you had had a problem when I used non-magisterium sources to make a point about Rome. Are you a member of Rome's magisterium?

Daily Bread,

No, I am not a member of the magisterium. My views however on this matter are very much in line with those of the magisterium. That's all that my statement implies. I have not said that this is the position of the church because just because it is mine as well. Rather, I have said that it is both mine and the church's. I can quote for you the catechism on the church's approach to other christian groups if you like, but I just said that in summary to give context so you would understand my curiosity. That's all.

I am also genuinely uninterested in a debate on the Trinity. For me this is something you just accept or you don't. I would just like to understand this alternative view point that I did not know was Adventist. I used to think it was exclusive to the Jehovah's Witnesses. Apparently not. I'm just curios if it is the JW position or something else. Genuine curiosity here, no more. I'm waving a peace flag...not interested in another 8 page marathon especially on Trinity.

[GeeMail]

Ka-Bella, thanks for the clarification on the magisterium and their limited authority. In other words, we should take Ka-Bella seriously even if she is not a magisterium member. Any Catholic's opinions should then count, perhaps as much as or more than the pope's? It gives me confidence to cite any Catholic sources and to take them seriously.

On the trinity, just like the Sabbath, you either take it or leave it. God is such a wonderful God He presents us the truth and allows us to choose it or to choose the error Satan presents.

Deuteronomy 30:14-16King James Version (KJV)

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Deuteronomy 30:18-20King James Version (KJV)

18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

There are Adventists who believe in the trinity. There are also Adventists who don't. Like many doctrinal matters, there are mainstream and alternative viewpoints. However, these don't matter as much as what the scriptures say.

I'm not sure Omollo is still following this discussion but I'd be glad to know why he finds the trinity doctrine blasphemous.

[vooke]

Let me help you on comprehension
When kadame states her position and asserts that it is the Catholic position, and invites you to confirm the same from OFFICIAL Catholic sources, that's a highly  intelligent debater who is at ease with her beliefs.

When Nuff Sed repeatedly AVOIDS readily available official Catholic sources on doctrines and practices and instead clings to unofficial 'Catholic' sources, and on this basis attacks kadame's position, that is a dishonest debater who would gladly tell lies to support her faith

What is the official position of SDAs on Trinity?

Ka-Bella, thanks for the clarification on the magisterium and their limited authority. In other words, we should take Ka-Bella seriously even if she is not a magisterium member. Any Catholic's opinions should then count, perhaps as much as or more than the pope's? It gives me confidence to cite any Catholic sources and to take them seriously.

There are Adventists who believe in the trinity. There are also Adventists who don't. Like many doctrinal matters, there are mainstream and alternative viewpoints. However, these don't matter as much as what the scriptures say.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

@Daily Bread,

One can see the origins of the belief from when the Holy spirit descends on the apostles making them speak in tongues.  Something that is documented in the Bible.  You combine that, with Jesus the son, and God the father and you have the trinity.

[vooke]

Nuff Sed,
I know Adventism flirted with Arianism at some point as this source gladly admits
http://www.ellenwhiteanswers.org/answers/mischarges/arianism/

But presently, your sect's position is trinitarian
http://www.adventist.org/fileadmin/adventist.org/files/articles/official-statements/28Beliefs-English.pdf

Now that you don't subscribe to SDA, care to share what's your view of God is?
Do you like EGW believe that Jesus is archangel Michael?

[GeeMail]

There is a link between Sabbath observance and not believing in the unscriptural doctrine of the trinity. Not surprisingly, both the false doctrine of Sunday worship and trinity are promoted violently by Rome. As fake preachers are wont to, trumpeting Rome's doctrines without question has become the norm.

"That the Cathari did retain and observe the ancient Sabbath, is certified by Romish adversaries. Dr. Allix quotes a Roman Catholic author of the twelfth century, concerning three sorts of heretics - the Cathari, the Passiginians, and the Arnoldistae. Allix says of this Romish writer that -
'He lays it down also as one of their opinions, 'that the law of Moses is to be kept according to the letter, and that the keeping of the Sabbath ...  and other legal observances, ought to take place. They hold also that Christ, the Son of God, is not equal with the Father, and that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, these three ...  are not one God and one substance; and as a surplus, to these errors, they judge and condemn all the doctors of the Church and universally the whole Roman Church ..." (Eccl. Hist. of the Ancient Churches of Piedmont, pp. 168-169, cf. Dugger and Dodd, pp. 227-228).

[Bella]

There is a link between Sabbath observance and not believing in the unscriptural doctrine of the trinity. Not surprisingly, both the false doctrine of Sunday worship and trinity are promoted violently by Rome. As fake preachers are wont to, trumpeting Rome's doctrines without question has become the norm.

"That the Cathari did retain and observe the ancient Sabbath, is certified by Romish adversaries. Dr. Allix quotes a Roman Catholic author of the twelfth century, concerning three sorts of heretics - the Cathari, the Passiginians, and the Arnoldistae. Allix says of this Romish writer that -
'He lays it down also as one of their opinions, 'that the law of Moses is to be kept according to the letter, and that the keeping of the Sabbath ...  and other legal observances, ought to take place. They hold also that Christ, the Son of God, is not equal with the Father, and that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, these three ...  are not one God and one substance; and as a surplus, to these errors, they judge and condemn all the doctors of the Church and universally the whole Roman Church ..." (Eccl. Hist. of the Ancient Churches of Piedmont, pp. 168-169, cf. Dugger and Dodd, pp. 227-228).

So,Daily Bread, what do you believe?

1) You dont believe that Jesus is God? The Holy Spirit is God? What are they, then? What can "Son of God" "Divine word" possibly mean in reference to divinity? What can baptizing "in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit" possibly mean?

2) Or you believe there are three Gods instead of just one?

Please just explain your own beliefs about who/what Jesus and the Holy Spirit are, and their relationships to God the father almighty, maker of heaven and earth. Are they his creatures, like the angels are or even we? Why worship a creature? Is that not a rejection of the first commandment? If they are not creatures,then are they three Gods? That is too Mormon/pagan, way removed from Judaeo-christianity or indeed the whole Abrahamic paradigm that includes Islam and other monotheisms. If they are not creatures and not separate Gods, then are they simply manifestations of God the father? Then that makes Jesus a liar who spoke of both himself and the Holy Spirit as persons distnict from God the father.

All these ideas were debated in the first three centuries and they all deny some truth that God and Jesus revealed. Only The Trinity upholds them all: (1) The absolute oneness of God: the very basis of the entire Old Testament and the Jewish faith (2) The Divinity of Christ and (3) The Divinity of the Holy Spirit;

All that the Trinity says is:
-There is only one absolute being or essence or divine substance, according to God's self-introduction to Moses: I am that I am or I am he that IS. This is the divine essence=To BE. Just being, uncreated, beginningless, unlimited, without end or time.
-There is three divine persons,or  subjects, or "I", in this one divinity: God the father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

This maintains simply that we believe everything Jesus said about himself and the Holy Spirit and what God had already taught the Jews about himself, that he is one absolutely indivisible being.

[vooke]

kadame,
When I say Sabbatarianism is error, I give sound reasons. When I say EGW was mad, I give reasons. When I say Sunday is the Lord's Day, I give reasons.

Nuff Sed on the other hand is content with mushene......sijui Rome this,Rome that. Just state what you believe and defend it. Seeing the amount of intellectual dishonesty you have pulled in misrepresenting bothy my statements and Catholicism, you would be the last person to consult on beliefs of others

So I join kadame in aksin you to state your beliefs and to defend them. Just note this is not an SDA Echo chamber where you compete at memorizing and reciting EGW garbage, you will be put to take to substantiate every word you put across.

PS: Your hesitation to share your beliefs and to instead obsess with Catholicism reeks of fear or ignorance or BOTH

So,Daily Bread, what do you believe?

[GeeMail]

Between reasons or ad hominem what do you actually give? What sounds to you like good reason is mere conjecture (Sunday worship supported by "apostolic practice" and suicidal meandering on the Sabbath commandment for example) foaming under tonnes of ad hominem.

I believe the trinity doctrine is not biblical. There is no evidence in the Bible that makes me believe there is a trinity.

kadame,
When I say Sabbatarianism is error, I give sound reasons. When I say EGW was mad, I give reasons. When I say Sunday is the Lord's Day, I give reasons.

Nuff Sed on the other hand is content with mushene......sijui Rome this,Rome that. Just state what you believe and defend it. Seeing the amount of intellectual dishonesty you have pulled in misrepresenting bothy my statements and Catholicism, you would be the last person to consult on beliefs of others

So I join kadame in aksin you to state your beliefs and to defend them. Just note this is not an SDA Echo chamber where you compete at memorizing and reciting EGW garbage, you will be put to take to substantiate every word you put across.

PS: Your hesitation to share your beliefs and to instead obsess with Catholicism reeks of fear or ignorance or BOTH

So,Daily Bread, what do you believe?

[vooke]

Is Jesus God?

Between reasons or ad hominem what do you actually give? What sounds to you like good reason is mere conjecture (Sunday worship supported by "apostolic practice" and suicidal meandering on the Sabbath commandment for example) foaming under tonnes of ad hominem.

I believe the trinity doctrine is not biblical. There is no evidence in the Bible that makes me believe there is a trinity.

[GeeMail]

Is Jesus God?

Between reasons or ad hominem what do you actually give? What sounds to you like good reason is mere conjecture (Sunday worship supported by "apostolic practice" and suicidal meandering on the Sabbath commandment for example) foaming under tonnes of ad hominem.

I believe the trinity doctrine is not biblical. There is no evidence in the Bible that makes me believe there is a trinity.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.