Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?

[RVtitem]

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I have attended a few of their services and they operate quite differently from the mainstream kenyan church. Who was that nipate theologist?

[kadame]

They are not a cult. They are among the churches that sprung from the restorationist movement in USA in the 1800s, along with SDAs, Mormons and others.

As to whether they are Christian, that is tricky. They certainly consider themselves Christian, in fact they consider themselves the elect, the only true Christians.

However, from a Historical and more objective point of view, they would not fall under what may be called the mainstream in Christianity. In fact, of all those groups that came up at around that time, I think SDAs are the only ones who hold to what are essentially mainstream Christian dogmas, such as the triune nature of God, the dual nature of Christ etc.

Jehovah's witnesses are not Trinitarian Christians, they do not believe that Jesus is God. This is the essential distinction.

Mormons have the weirdest and wildest beliefs of all those groups that started in the US in the 19th century and I feel it is not at all unfair to state plainly they are not Christians. That's not meant as an insult. They don't believe in one God but three distinct gods which is something very different from what all other Christians believe. These three completely separate gods were not always divine but were more like us (humans) at one point and were exalted to godhood as a reward for their goodness, so these gods are essentially creatures; and righteous humans shall also be exalted to godhood and receive their own world and creation to reign over....so humans will become divine. To say its bizzare from the point of view of Judeo-Christian assumptions is not an exaggeration. I consider them a completely separate religion with historical roots in Christianity.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

They are both.

[bittertruth]

JW is purely a cult.
They use their own special translation of the Bible which mistranslates the original texts.
They have falsely predicted the end of the world over five times now.
They also deny that Jesus rose bodily from the dead.

[vooke]

1.Cults basically derive their teachings from a specific point which could be an institution or man which is deemed INFALLIBLE (fallibility s for sissies and neanderthals)
For Witnesses, it is the WatchTower Society in the US, for Mormons it is Joseph Smith, Mary Eddy Baker does it for Christian Scientists....

2. Cults will appropriate specific portions of scriptures to themselves exclusively. Having scriptures talking about you and you alone is bound to buy you more power.
Owuor the jarluo prophet claims that Malachi 4 prophecy of Elijah coming is talking about him! That's why they call him The Mighty Prophet of God. Note 'THE'
Malachi 4:5-6 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes.
6 And he shall turn and reconcile the hearts of the [estranged] fathers to the [ungodly] children, and the hearts of the [rebellious] children to [the piety of] their fathers [a reconciliation produced by repentance of the ungodly], lest I come and smite the land with a curse and a ban of utter destruction.

Witnesses claim that the WatchTower Society is the ONLY faithful servant and the food is the BS that they keep on churning out namely Awake,Watchtower and all other patraphernelia.
Luke 12:42-43 Amplified Bible (AMP)
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful steward, the wise man whom his master will set over those in his household service to supply them their allowance of food at the appointed time?
43 Blessed (happy and [a]to be envied) is that servant whom his master finds so doing when he arrives.

Of course they are at pains to explain how or who was serving food before Watchtower was born at the turn of the century

3. Like Bittertruth stated, cults occasionally dab in the prophetic with devastating results.
SDAs or Ellen G White once infamously predicted 1844 to be end of the Age. When it failed, the stupid prick could not bring herself to apologizing, she REVISED her prophecy. 1844 was now the year Christ started atonement or when He entered the Holy of Holies in heaven from the outer court!

Jehovah's witnesses had 1984. They could not bring themselves to admitting error. They revised their teachings accordingly. Many new Witnesses dont even know about these. See they can't study ANYTHING not approved by Watchtower so they will NEVER see outside what WatcTower wants them to see and WatchTower can't shoot itself in the feet by letting them in on their inconsistencies

I once had a trove of their literature spanning years but it was destroyed when my dig 'flooded'

[GeeMail]

Kadame I salute you for a very well reasoned response, not to mention your wholesome understanding of JW and SDA, the church I belong to. For a complete answer to RV Item, we need to come to a common understanding of what a cult is. Historically, the label has been used to refer to "a system of religious or spiritual beliefs, especially an informal and transient belief system regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false, and directed by a charismatic, authoritarian leader".
The key words in the definition is "regarded by others". Which means if others are misguided then there is really no basis for making the claim. In simple English, the word cult is extremely prejudiced and subjective. In theological practice, it is derogatory. It is as subjective as the word mainstream.
The use of labels like cult may look innocent today, but in history, beliefs systems contrary to the Universal Church were called heretical and led to the Inquisition in various countries. The numbers of those who died or were made to convert are mind-boggling. Calling someone a heretic was not dissimilar to shouting Mwizi! in the middle of Gikomba - a sure death sentence, many times instant. At best, one would be excommunicated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
If one were to use the rest of the definition (misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false) then all churches qualify in some way. Charismatic Pentecostals are misguided in many ways (prosperity gospel and over-emphasis on 'miracles' being two factors), so they qualify as a cult. All churches that worship on Sunday can be regarded as cultic.
http://www.romeschallenge.com/

Even Kadame's Catholic church may be regarded by others as a cult. The Catholic church may evens out with JWs given that they have some unorthodox beliefs (worship of Mary, adoration of saints, infant baptism, purgatory...) are led by a charismatic, authoritarian leader. They even have their own version of the Ten Commandments and the Apocrypha (books not found in other Bibles).
Eventually, one needs not be scared by labels like cult or mainstream. Follow what the bible tells you and if that fits with your church, let it be. If your church does not follow the Bible, you are in a cult even if the church is mainstream.
I have seen Vooke's attack on SDA and Ellen G. White. Completely unwarranted and unsubstantiated. It seems he was foaming in the mouth as he typed those words.

3. Like Bittertruth stated, cults occasionally dab in the prophetic with devastating results.
SDAs or Ellen G White once infamously predicted 1844 to be end of the Age. When it failed, the stupid prick could not bring herself to apologizing, she REVISED her prophecy. 1844 was now the year Christ started atonement or when He entered the Holy of Holies in heaven from the outer court!

A simple search on Wikipedia could have saved Vooke the embarrassment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Disappointment

[vooke]

it's vooke NOT Vooke

Kadame I salute you for a very well reasoned response, not to mention your wholesome understanding of JW and SDA, the church I belong to. For a complete answer to RV Item, we need to come to a common understanding of what a cult is. Historically, the label has been used to refer to "a system of religious or spiritual beliefs, especially an informal and transient belief system regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false, and directed by a charismatic, authoritarian leader".
The key words in the definition is "regarded by others". Which means if others are misguided then there is really no basis for making the claim. In simple English, the word cult is extremely prejudiced and subjective. In theological practice, it is derogatory. It is as subjective as the word mainstream.
The use of labels like cult may look innocent today, but in history, beliefs systems contrary to the Universal Church were called heretical and led to the Inquisition in various countries. The numbers of those who died or were made to convert are mind-boggling. Calling someone a heretic was not dissimilar to shouting Mwizi! in the middle of Gikomba - a sure death sentence, many times instant. At best, one would be excommunicated.
If one were to use the rest of the definition (misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false) then all churches qualify in some way. Charismatic Pentecostals are misguided in many ways (prosperity gospel and over-emphasis on 'miracles' being two factors), so they qualify as a cult.
Even Kadame's Catholic church may be regarded by others as a cult. The Catholic church may evens out with JWs given that they have some unorthodox beliefs (worship of Mary, adoration of saints, infant baptism, purgatory...) are led by a charismatic, authoritarian leader. They even have their own version of the Ten Commandments and the Apocrypha (books not found in other Bibles).
Eventually, one needs not be scared by labels like cult or mainstream. Follow what the bible tells you and if that fits with your church, let it be. If your church does not follow the Bible, you are in a cult even if the church is mainstream.
I have seen Vooke's attack on SDA and Ellen G. White. Completely unwarranted and unsubstantiated. It seems he was foaming in the mouth as he typed those words.

[GeeMail]

The SDA church was formally established in 1863 and you wanted them to apologize for a prophecy of 1844. Between Voke and SDA show should apologize now?

[vooke]

What did Ellen G White say about 1844? You want me to air her dirty BS here?

For the last time it is vooke not Voke!

The SDA church was formally established in 1863 and you wanted them to apologize for a prophecy of 1844. Between Voke and SDA show should apologize now?

[GeeMail]

You tell us. Substantiate or withdraw. Before we go there, we have right before us a record today calling Ellen G. White a "stupid prick who could not bring herself to apologizing." Can we tackle that before we go back in time?

[vooke]

Her stupidity necessarily entails history since she is not here. So you are tying my hands

You tell us. Substantiate or withdraw. Before we go there, we have right before us a record today calling Ellen G. White a "stupid prick". Can we tackle that before we go back in time?

[GeeMail]

Do you lack access to history or her life? What led you to label Ellen G. White a "stupid prick"? You must have some proof otherwise you wouldn't have repeated the insult. The SDA church has 18m followers worldwide. Knowing they regard Ellen G. White highly you could be helping many congregations.

[vooke]

A dead stupid prick must have manifested her stupidity during her life. If you aks for proof on one hand and then tell me not to go in time, you are hopelessly confused. Where else can I get proof apart from examining her works which is historical?

Do you lack access to history or her life? What led you to label Ellen G. White a "stupid prick"? You must have some proof otherwise you wouldn't have repeated the insult.

You tell us. Substantiate or withdraw. Before we go there, we have right before us a record today calling Ellen G. White a "stupid prick". Can we tackle that before we go back in time?

[GeeMail]

OK. I set you free to go back in time, to the future and to the present.

[bittertruth]

The SDA church was formally established in 1863 and you wanted them to apologize for a prophecy of 1844. Between Voke and SDA show should apologize now?

[vooke]

Thank you very much. You are far too kind.
Let's start with EPIC failed prophecies. 

Do you know of this book, Testimonies for the Churches Volume One?
I have attached a link down here and I want you to rush to page 131-132;

I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: "Some food for worms,[*SISTER CLARISSA M. BONFOEY, WHO FELL ASLEEP IN Jesus ONLY THREE DAYS AFTER THIS VISION WAS GIVEN, WAS PRESENT IN USUAL HEALTH, AND WAS DEEPLY IMPRESSED THAT SHE WAS ONE WHO WOULD GO INTO THE GRAVE, AND STATED HER CONVICTIONS TO OTHERS.] some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus."

http://www.gilead.net/egw/books/testimonies/Testimonies_for_the_Church_Volume_One/25_Conformity_to_the_World.htm

So this woman is saying that there were members in that conference (held in 1856) who would remain ALIVE till Jesus comes back. All are dead. That's a failed prophecy.

If it is, tell me why you still regard her as a prophet . We go through this before I share more otherwise it is an exercise in futility if you have made up your mind not to be confused with facts

OK. I set you free to go back in time, to the future and to the present.

[GeeMail]

BT, it's not clear what you dispute. Is it the existence of a 2,300 day prophecy or the second phase of Jesus' atoning ministry?
William Miller was not SDA when he made the 1844 prophecy (so Voke asking SDA to apologize does not arise). In any case the prophecy was wrong on the event, not the timing. Even then it was the result of many things happening outside the Adventist faith.

The U.S. Northeast in the early 19th Century was a hotbed of revival. The so-called Second Great Awakening ignited movements such as the

http://www.adventist.org/information/history/article/go/0/seventh-day-adventist-church-emerged-from-religious-fervor-of-19th-century-1/

William Miller erred on the side of time. However, on balance of points, it's understandable that believers sided with him (despite the erroneous timing in his prophecy). At that time many Christians did not believe in a literal return of Christ. In fact, some, like today did not even want Christ to return.

[GeeMail]

Thank you very much. You are far too kind.
Let's start with EPIC failed prophecies. 

Do you know of this book, Testimonies for the Churches Volume One?
I have attached a link down here and I want you to rush to page 131-132;

I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: "Some food for worms,[*SISTER CLARISSA M. BONFOEY, WHO FELL ASLEEP IN Jesus ONLY THREE DAYS AFTER THIS VISION WAS GIVEN, WAS PRESENT IN USUAL HEALTH, AND WAS DEEPLY IMPRESSED THAT SHE WAS ONE WHO WOULD GO INTO THE GRAVE, AND STATED HER CONVICTIONS TO OTHERS.] some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus."

http://www.gilead.net/egw/books/testimonies/Testimonies_for_the_Church_Volume_One/25_Conformity_to_the_World.htm

So this woman is saying that there were members in that conference (held in 1856) who would remain ALIVE till Jesus comes back. All are dead. That's a failed prophecy.

If it is, tell me why you still regard her as a prophet . We go through this before I share more otherwise it is an exercise in futility if you have made up your mind not to be confused with facts

OK. I set you free to go back in time, to the future and to the present.

[vooke]

This is where we sort heresies from facts.
1. Jonah's prophecy was conditional, he was preaching repentance. What was the point in God sending him all the way if not repentance?

2. Jesus spoke of destruction of the temple, and not everyone had died by 70 AD

3. Ellen White's vision/prophecy carried NO condition whatsoever, if it did, please show us what condition that was

Again my name is vooke not Vook. Please don't take it in vain

[GeeMail]

Jesus talks about Jerusalem alright, but also about the end of the world. I see no dichotomy. If Jonah could give conditional prophecies, why not Ellen G. White? I submit to you that all prophecies about the end of time are conditional.

http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/1856visn.html

Ellen G. White gave many prophecies in health, education, religion..... One of the most dramatic prophecies was in health. At a time many doctors prescribed smoking as a cure for coughs, she warned of its cancerous effects. Date? 1864. No medical training, no proper formal schooling.
http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-prophecy-Ellen_White-true-predictions-Bible

Tobacco is a poison of the most deceitful and malignant kind, having an exciting, then a paralysing influence upon the nerves of the body. It is all the more dangerous because its effects upon the system are so slow, and at first scarcely perceivable. Multitudes have fallen victims to its poisonous influence (Counsels on Health, 84).

Another dramatic prophecy she made is being fulfilled in our time. She did not even live to see it. The coming together of protestants and Catholics. It's far more dramatic than KKK and Nation of Islam merging.

Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, (Great Controversy, p451)