Author Topic: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed  (Read 7234 times)

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2022, 03:04:48 PM »
This has become an academic lecture by kadame about whataboutism

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Looks like there was quite some looting.  I have seen clips of Russians processing the loot.  Some even sending them as gifts, toys etc back to family in Russia.  It's a tragic overall scene where even the perpetrators come across as pitiful.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

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Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2022, 03:35:00 PM »
I believe the Ukraine story in general.  Nobody is a saint.  But Zelensky pulling our leg by slaughtering civilians in the Kyiv suburbs is too academic to be given any serious consideration IMO.  I would have had some doubts if this were in the East Azov controlled territory.

I am maintaining all my doubts until investigations. If Obama could lie, I have no reason to think Zelensky wouldn't. It could very well be the Russian unit here went nuts and their govt is trying to save face. Or that the Ukrainian unit that took over went nuts and Zelensky is just going with it to suit his cause. Until investigations are done I am not simply assuming Putin is a thug and Zelensky not. After all, it was Zelensky that didn't seem to mind the Azov shenanigans in the East. If the investigators say it's the Russians, I'll go with it. But I have no reason to assume it can't be the Ukrainians.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2022, 03:44:09 PM »
I believe the Ukraine story in general.  Nobody is a saint.  But Zelensky pulling our leg by slaughtering civilians in the Kyiv suburbs is too academic to be given any serious consideration IMO.  I would have had some doubts if this were in the East Azov controlled territory.

I am maintaining all my doubts until investigations. If Obama could lie, I have no reason to think Zelensky wouldn't. It could very well be the Russian unit here went nuts and their govt is trying to save face. Or that the Ukrainian unit that took over went nuts and Zelensky is just going with it to suit his cause. Until investigations are done I am not simply assuming Putin is a thug and Zelensky not. After all, it was Zelensky that didn't seem to mind the Azov shenanigans in the East. If the investigators say it's the Russians, I'll go with it. But I have no reason to assume it can't be the Ukrainians.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Arcadian_Dreamer

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2022, 03:45:54 PM »
Don't waste your time arguing with Chinese 50 center  :D
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Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2022, 03:56:27 PM »

Which NYT article are you referring to, Termie? The one I saw had a clear disclaimer that the paper had not been able to independent verify those claims. Or do you mean the ones about other incidents outside Buccha? Moreover, NYT has not carried out forensics. Just reported on the same flood of videos. And the Western media has been basically forwarding Ukrainian claims and totally clamping down on Russian.

Bear in mind social media has basically blocked alk Russian sources or pro-Russian sources and that you're relying fully on a std Western paper. Secondly, BOTH Russia and Ukraine are currently controlling media in their controlled territories to extents considered draconian.

Feel free to believe this, I'm still waiting on actual investigations and I don't even need to call your views 'quibbles' or some similar descriptor while differing with you STRONGLY on this based on previous precedent. After all, my position is to go with investigations and not reports from a world away.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2022, 04:21:02 PM »

Which NYT article are you referring to, Termie? The one I saw had a clear disclaimer that the paper had not been able to independent verify those claims. Or do you mean the ones about other incidents outside Buccha? Moreover, NYT has not carried out forensics. Just reported on the same flood of videos. And the Western media has been basically forwarding Ukrainian claims and totally clamping down on Russian.

Bear in mind social media has basically blocked alk Russian sources or pro-Russian sources and that you're relying fully on a std Western paper. Secondly, BOTH Russia and Ukraine are currently controlling media in their controlled territories to extents considered draconian.

Feel free to believe this, I'm still waiting on actual investigations and I don't even need to call your views 'quibbles' or some similar descriptor while differing with you STRONGLY on this based on previous precedent. After all, my position is to go with investigations and not reports from a world away.

Nobody is questioning the role and value of a tribunal.  They need to gather every last bit of evidence and corroboration before making their report. 

However ordinary people don't have the luxury to wait for tribunals to make practical life and death decisions.  They have to make calls on the basis of incomplete information.  Put yourself in the shoes of a person in a Kyiv suburb.  Their lives depend on which group they run into on the street.  Did that guy who just shot a man on a bicycle a Ukrainian soldier disguised as a Russian or is he really Russian?  Which section is under the Ukrainian/Russian military?  Where should I go?  The conclusions they make are going to be dependent on what other people say they have seen and their own experience.  So far, this incomplete picture, IMO, favors the Ukrainian version.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2022, 04:28:54 PM »
I completely appreciate that nobody is expected to have full or even the best information, particularly amidst an active warzone and full-blast information war.

But as I've said time and again, this story doesn't feel very new to me; My caution is based on precedent and wilful resistance to the ingrained tendency in most of us (especially the educated class who hold to a Western world view) to give the Western version of events in an international crisis an automatic benefit of the doubt.

We had similar debates in the old nipate about whether Obama could rightly bomb Syria based on the chemical attacks and most people even then assumed Assad was guilty as sin. I need independent investigations to let go of this caution Ive built in my mind whenever the West is involved in one of these things. If the Russians did this, and someone independent says it, I'm all for the ICC or a special tribunal to try those soldiers. But for me, it has to be the UN saying this. Not just the West.

And I fully understand the perspective you're holding to. I'm not saying it's uneducated or anything. You and I just have different biases and approaches.

Offline Georgesoros

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2022, 07:54:03 PM »
I believe the Ukraine story in general.  Nobody is a saint.  But Zelensky pulling our leg by slaughtering civilians in the Kyiv suburbs is too academic to be given any serious consideration IMO.  I would have had some doubts if this were in the East Azov controlled territory.

I am maintaining all my doubts until investigations. If Obama could lie, I have no reason to think Zelensky wouldn't. It could very well be the Russian unit here went nuts and their govt is trying to save face. Or that the Ukrainian unit that took over went nuts and Zelensky is just going with it to suit his cause. Until investigations are done I am not simply assuming Putin is a thug and Zelensky not. After all, it was Zelensky that didn't seem to mind the Azov shenanigans in the East. If the investigators say it's the Russians, I'll go with it. But I have no reason to assume it can't be the Ukrainians.

After Jesus rose again, Thomas did not believe it until he had to see where the nails pierced the skin. You have a huge task Termie trying to convince "Doubting Thomases".

Offline Nowayhaha

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2022, 10:12:55 AM »

Offline Nowayhaha

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2022, 10:13:39 AM »

Offline Nowayhaha

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #50 on: April 06, 2022, 10:16:47 AM »

Offline Nowayhaha

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2022, 10:17:36 AM »

Offline Nowayhaha

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2022, 10:18:27 AM »
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Offline Nowayhaha

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2022, 10:19:20 AM »

Offline Nowayhaha

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2022, 10:20:22 AM »

Offline Nowayhaha

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #55 on: April 06, 2022, 10:21:14 AM »
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Offline Nowayhaha

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #56 on: April 06, 2022, 10:21:58 AM »
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Offline Nowayhaha

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #57 on: April 06, 2022, 10:23:11 AM »

Offline Nowayhaha

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #58 on: April 06, 2022, 10:24:05 AM »
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Offline Nowayhaha

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Re: Crime against humanity in Ukraine. Civilians killed
« Reply #59 on: April 06, 2022, 10:25:10 AM »