Author Topic: Defeated Russia seeks settlement  (Read 5569 times)

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2022, 09:12:19 PM »
I also don't get how people judge Russia against the recent US embarassment by the Taliban. Ground job is never easy. Russia aim is not to occupy Ukraine but fend off Nato.
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2022, 09:22:49 PM »
:)

If you frame it as Russia vs Ukraine - you have Russia as laughing stock
But if you have Russia vs Nato - then Nato is the failure

There is too much propaganda to tell the difference. Overall goal is if Ukraine is joining Nato or going neutral/demilitarized. They already lost Crimea and the Donbass/Doneskt regions.

Russia vs Nato is a direct gain for China. That's 2 big battlefronts  for the west.

NATO was divided, but now they are together. Militarization will be a priority.
They never thought Putin could be a crazy person until......now
Eastern Europe will be stronger.
Russia will be brain drained, until an anti Putin takes over - that will be another 20yrs
Ukraine will be like S. Korea - vibrant
China gain/loss still undetermined.
Africa and E. Europe will will gain as businesses leave China's strongman.
Lastly, Robina will join Ruto.

Strictly speaking NATO has no skin in this game.  But they get Putin to commit to an unnecessary war.  They watch and try out weapons from a distance.  NATO does not need Ukraine.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2022, 09:32:08 PM »
Ground job is never easy. Russia aim is not to occupy Ukraine but fend off Nato.

This is what most people like Plato/Njuri get wrong. They bought into the lie that Russia was trying to colonize Ukraine and resurrect USSR. You can only buy this if you've zero context in the 8-year war going on there.

Which, to be fair, has been deliberately blocked out in Western media this year. Anyone like Tulsi Gabbard who's attempted to provide this context has been severely punished.

So I don't blame them. Knowing my personality, I'd 100% be toeing the same line if I hadn't sobered up on the sinister side of Western geopolitics since WW2. It's very natural to do because the West has very successfully presented themselves as a righteous force in the world rather than a run-of-the-mill selfish power like all the rest.

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2022, 09:38:10 PM »
Strictly speaking NATO has no skin in this game.  But they get Putin to commit to an unnecessary war.  They watch and try out weapons from a distance.  NATO does not need Ukraine.

But Ukraine was never the point, even for NATO. Russia is. The Munroe doctrine. This is why it's a do or die for the Russians. They are fully aware the end goal is to balkanize them into manageable little pieces, further insulating the hegemon from any challenge to its place in global politics. So for them, getting NATO to back off is quite significant. They live to fight another day.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2022, 09:40:33 PM »
Ground job is never easy. Russia aim is not to occupy Ukraine but fend off Nato.

This is what most people like Plato/Njuri get wrong. They bought into the lie that Russia was trying to colonize Ukraine and resurrect USSR. You can only buy this if you've zero context in the 8-year war going on there.

Which, to be fair, has been deliberately blocked out in Western media this year. Anyone like Tulsi Gabbard who's attempted to provide this context has been severely punished.

So I don't blame them. Knowing my personality, I'd 100% be toeing the same line if I hadn't sobered up on the sinister side of Western geopolitics since WW2. It's very natural to do because the West has very successfully presented themselves as a righteous force in the world rather than a run-of-the-mill selfish power like all the rest.

And they are in one sense.  They stake the high moral ground, and often open themselves up to scrutiny on that basis.  Do they live up to it?  Sometimes, but not always.  For example, the 90s US intervention in Somalia happened for purely humanitarian reasons(nothing in it for them).  Just go in, make sure the food gets to the starving masses. 

The "other powers" claim no such moral ground and therefore leave no opening for accountability beyond self interest. 
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2022, 09:45:33 PM »
Strictly speaking NATO has no skin in this game.  But they get Putin to commit to an unnecessary war.  They watch and try out weapons from a distance.  NATO does not need Ukraine.

But Ukraine was never the point, even for NATO. Russia is. The Munroe doctrine. This is why it's a do or die for the Russians. They are fully aware the end goal is to balkanize them into manageable little pieces, further insulating the hegemon from any challenge to its place in global politics. So for them, getting NATO to back off is quite significant. They live to fight another day.

If you think it's do or die for the Russians, what about the Ukrainians?  I hate this analogy, but Ukraine is like a rape victim.  I am not going to question how they choose to respond.  If they choose to give in, sure, it's their call.  If they choose to fight, it's entirely legitimate and understable.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline GeeMail

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2022, 09:55:37 PM »
I won't respond to you Nowayhaha.

For the purpose of this war Russia is defeated. Nato members has shown that they can walk the talk in terms of supporting allies who are non members. Ukraine performance and Russian military incompetence has opened a new era for the world. Russia has finally shown the world its under belly. It has proven that it is an empty bear. No country going forward will take Russian aggression lying down.

China must make a very important strategic decision here. To go with defeated Russia or to crawl back to the western sphere of influence. China can't hide anymore it tipped her hand early in this battle thinking Russia would win quickly now Russia is blackmailing them asking for assistance. India is under cutting China by buying Russian oil.

Anyway 21 days on Ukraine has won and Russian troops should be given a chance by their commander in chief putin to go back and regroup. It is evil to let your troops fight a battle with no clear goals and no good outcome.

China called to buttress Russia falling giant. China respond cannot go along, will fill gap by being the bear Russia failed to be. Economically China capable. Military as well but will not try Taiwan yet. Definitely will in future and will call Russia to help.
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2022, 09:56:31 PM »
And they are in one sense.  They stake the high moral ground, and often open themselves up to scrutiny on that basis.  Do they live up to it?  Sometimes, but not always.  For example, the 90s US intervention in Somalia happened for purely humanitarian reasons(nothing in it for them).  Just go in, make sure the food gets to the starving masses. 

The "other powers" claim no such moral ground and therefore leave no opening for accountability beyond self interest. 

I just cannot believe this at all about the West, Termie, and it's not my fault. They keep proving themselves scoundrels over and over again.

Even take JUST this Ukraine issue. They literally engineer a coup to kick out an elected govt that will end NATO ambitions in the Ukraine, rave up their new puppet to tell Russians, their vastly more powerful neighbor, "Yeah we don't give a flying spaghetti about your security concerns; we're joining NATO and may even play with nukes." A war PREDICTABLY breaks out as the Russians act to ensure that never happens, and the West tell Ukrainians they're not risking their skin for them. All this just for a game of trying to check-mate Russia instead of trying to integrate them into EU.

I'm sorry but I have NO way of looking at the govt that behaves this way just because it can as a friend of peace AT ALL. They're a tyrant/mafia, willingly playing roulettes with smaller nations and in the long run, the entire planet.

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2022, 10:46:35 PM »
Plato, here's a non-Western, non-Russian report on these talks:


Virtually the only place on YouTube with an independent take on Russia/Ukraine in English.

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2022, 11:03:46 PM »
If you think it's do or die for the Russians, what about the Ukrainians?  I hate this analogy, but Ukraine is like a rape victim.  I am not going to question how they choose to respond.  If they choose to give in, sure, it's their call.  If they choose to fight, it's entirely legitimate and understable.

I understand the solidarity with an invaded country that has not attacked anyone. But I have a hard time seeing anybody but Ukrainian citizens as the victims here. Their govt is another matter.

Now, if you know your decision is putting your neighbor in peril and that they have the means to tackle you if you insist on that decision, why insist on it? Because (1) you don't give a flying spaghetti what happens to your neighbor and (2) you think you have a way to avoid the tackle they keep promising. Enter Western/NATO lies.

Which only make this government criminally irresponsible as far as their own population is concerned or just very foolish. Why turn your country into the chessboard upon which NATO/Russia play their chess?

So I agree with you about the people but not the govt. We have no way of saying these people want to be in this position. We have to believe this govt and I really don't.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2022, 01:29:37 AM »
If you think it's do or die for the Russians, what about the Ukrainians?  I hate this analogy, but Ukraine is like a rape victim.  I am not going to question how they choose to respond.  If they choose to give in, sure, it's their call.  If they choose to fight, it's entirely legitimate and understable.

I understand the solidarity with an invaded country that has not attacked anyone. But I have a hard time seeing anybody but Ukrainian citizens as the victims here. Their govt is another matter.

I don't understand this.  Zelensky is their representative.  He is the face of Ukrainians.

Now, if you know your decision is putting your neighbor in peril and that they have the means to tackle you if you insist on that decision, why insist on it? Because (1) you don't give a flying spaghetti what happens to your neighbor and (2) you think you have a way to avoid the tackle they keep promising. Enter Western/NATO lies.

Which only make this government criminally irresponsible as far as their own population is concerned or just very foolish. Why turn your country into the chessboard upon which NATO/Russia play their chess?

So I agree with you about the people but not the govt. We have no way of saying these people want to be in this position. We have to believe this govt and I really don't.

Because I think Ukraine has the right to do what it wants within international law, and in principle, I just can't reconcile with this view morally and legally.  The only way I can see it as relevant is if I think entirely in terms of material benefit.  The Ukrainians from what I can tell think there is more to life than just surviving under Russia's shadow.  Maybe they are crazy, but people have done crazier things, including flying planes into buildings for their dignity.  Some people would rather die than be slaves.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Nowayhaha

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2022, 01:37:05 AM »

Offline Nowayhaha

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2022, 01:44:27 AM »

Offline KenyanPlato

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2022, 01:53:22 AM »
Ground job is never easy. Russia aim is not to occupy Ukraine but fend off Nato.

This is what most people like Plato/Njuri get wrong. They bought into the lie that Russia was trying to colonize Ukraine and resurrect USSR. You can only buy this if you've zero context in the 8-year war going on there.

Which, to be fair, has been deliberately blocked out in Western media this year. Anyone like Tulsi Gabbard who's attempted to provide this context has been severely punished.

So I don't blame them. Knowing my personality, I'd 100% be toeing the same line if I hadn't sobered up on the sinister side of Western geopolitics since WW2. It's very natural to do because the West has very successfully presented themselves as a righteous force in the world rather than a run-of-the-mill selfish power like all the rest.

Keep on using crazies like Tulsi to support your antiwestern stand. Usa has provided ukraine with weapons to stop a poorly motivated and equipped army. After this war usa walks out as the king of the hill. No one will ever attempt what Russia has. Putin couldn't even listen to his own Intel guys. His own may have leaked all his plans to Americans and Ukrainians. I just hope you would relocate to China or Russia and go live in those communist utopias

Offline mankind

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2022, 02:37:37 AM »


    Noway watch this interview of Colonel McGregor on the reality happening in this war.

   

Offline audacityofhope

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2022, 03:44:11 AM »
:)

If you frame it as Russia vs Ukraine - you have Russia as laughing stock
But if you have Russia vs Nato - then Nato is the failure

There is too much propaganda to tell the difference. Overall goal is if Ukraine is joining Nato or going neutral/demilitarized. They already lost Crimea and the Donbass/Doneskt regions.

Russia vs Nato is a direct gain for China. That's 2 big battlefronts  for the west.

NATO was divided, but now they are together. Militarization will be a priority.
They never thought Putin could be a crazy person until......now
Eastern Europe will be stronger.
Russia will be brain drained, until an anti Putin takes over - that will be another 20yrs
Ukraine will be like S. Korea - vibrant
China gain/loss still undetermined.
Africa and E. Europe will will gain as businesses leave China's strongman.
Lastly, Robina will join Ruto.

Strictly speaking NATO has no skin in this game.  But they get Putin to commit to an unnecessary war.  They watch and try out weapons from a distance.  NATO does not need Ukraine.
All recent conflicts that get Western powers involved covertly have this central theme. If you are the age of Termie or myself who have been around the block, blogging for so many years and acquiring the requisite wisdom, Western powers use these wars to gauge, how effective their arsenal of weapons are in live combat. Russia must be realizing just how dead stock some of her weapons are. Stockpile only weapons of the future. I am sure those nations who created Javelins and Nlaw anti tank missiles are pleased with the performance. Beyond testing of weapons, always remember America only cares about its direct interest. All other debates on recent conflicts, this one of Ukraine included, are largely moot.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2022, 06:26:51 AM »
Ukrainian gov are the most stupid leaders ever elected and have invited this war..and now they about to enter a treaty that colonize them officially under Russia.They will never talk about EU or NATO..and they should not have in the first place.The end result of this conflict is Russia colonize Ukraine.They called for Russia to come beat them...they will lose part of the country and rest will be a vassal state of Russia.. with Russia military staying there for years...

Offline Njuri Ncheke

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2022, 07:07:42 AM »
Ukrainian gov are the most stupid leaders ever elected and have invited this war..and now they about to enter a treaty that colonize them officially under Russia.They will never talk about EU or NATO..and they should not have in the first place.The end result of this conflict is Russia colonize Ukraine.They called for Russia to come beat them...they will lose part of the country and rest will be a vassal state of Russia.. with Russia military staying there for years...
Unfortunately you are listening to your own delusional noises in your head. War is not Moass that you can play around with at the comfort of your PC,War analysis needs in-depth thinking creating several scenarios and outcomes not for mursik level thinking .
Putin is more worried about his own people that are slowly rising against him.Like I said he wll end up overthrowned or assassinated in 2 years time from now. His own people will take care of him
https://www.reuters.com/world/putin-warns-russia-against-pro-western-traitors-scum-2022-03-16/

I won't be surprised if Putin even ends up at ICC together with gatheca at some point in the future ,Russians may use him as a bargain tool for sanctions to be removed
At the moment he is calling for more volunteers after his first army was chewed up. He is now relying on soviet era equipment after his modern equipment has been used up or destroyed in the war.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-putin-ally-says-ukraine-war-has-been-slower-than-expected-2022-03-14/

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2022, 07:11:16 AM »
Delusional rant. I am interested in the end goal. Ukraine are negotiating never to say the word NATO again and also never to have weapons. They are officially Russian biatches. They feel betrayed by NATO & US who have been all talk and no show. In the meantime I dont consider citizen army of volunteers in Ukraine erecting sandbags in cities as any threat to Russian army. This has been a smart war by Russia - not shock and awe - that they are capable of - heavy bombardment - but occupying Ukraine and preparing to stay for sometime - as they slice and dice Ukraine - taking parts of it back to Russia - and the remainder will be a vassal state like Austria or Sweden or Germany - not allowed to have strong army.

End goal - what Russia-Ukraine treaty will sign on. That is whole point of this beating by Russia of Ukraine. The spanking doesnt have to go overboard by killing thousand of people or bombing cities to smithereens - the end goal is for Ukraine to forget about NATO and for Russia to control it...and they are about to put paper to pen.

Ukrainian gov are the most stupid leaders ever elected and have invited this war..and now they about to enter a treaty that colonize them officially under Russia.They will never talk about EU or NATO..and they should not have in the first place.The end result of this conflict is Russia colonize Ukraine.They called for Russia to come beat them...they will lose part of the country and rest will be a vassal state of Russia.. with Russia military staying there for years...
Unfortunately you are listening to your own delusional noises in your head. War is not Moass that you can play around with at the comfort of your PC,War analysis needs in-depth thinking creating several scenarios and outcomes not for mursik level thinking .
Putin is more worried about his own people that are slowly rising against him.Like I said he wll end up overthrowned or assassinated in 2 years time from now. His own people will take care of him
https://www.reuters.com/world/putin-warns-russia-against-pro-western-traitors-scum-2022-03-16/

I won't be surprised if Putin even ends up at ICC together with gatheca at some point in the future ,Russians may use him as a bargain tool for sanctions to be removed
At the moment he is calling for more volunteers after his first army was chewed up. He is now relying on soviet era equipment after his modern equipment has been used up or destroyed in the war.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-putin-ally-says-ukraine-war-has-been-slower-than-expected-2022-03-14/


Offline audacityofhope

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Re: Defeated Russia seeks settlement
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2022, 07:44:03 AM »
NATO IS AVOIDING WAR WITH RUSSIA FOR YOUR SAKE.
 NATO's decision to not close the sky over Ukraine is correct. A shooting war between Russia and NATO should be avoided as much as possible and the way the US has been evading that confrontation is simply the right thing to do.If you think it is cowardice, it is because you don't know and this post will brief you.
Let me set it out in a very brief way.
There are three types of wars:
1. Conventional war - which is fought according to the rules of war: Don't kill civilians and children, don't hit civilian infrastructure, don't shoot surrendering enemy soldiers and PoWs, etc.
2. Total war - which Russia seems to be fighting in Ukraine right now and which it fought against Chechnya in Grozny. In a total war, you just kill everybody you see and destroy everything on your way.
3. Nuclear war.
On a normal day, Russia will fall quickly of NATO engages it in a conventional or a total war and Putin has admitted that much in a speech recently. There is no contest in that. NATO's firepower is extensive and its generals are top level.
However, the mismatch will force Russia to quickly resort to 'final-solution' tactics while it can - it will launch its arsenal of nuclear weapons. Lets be quickly reminded that since the 1970s, both the West and Russia have thousands of nuclear tipped missiles already programmed to hit targets in all major cities on each other's soil. With just the press of a button, those missiles will fly out and head for their targets.
But there are difficulties. Both sides have watchmen that are not sleeping. Every inch of Russian territory is under a 24/7 scan for missile launch by the West, using flare and heat detection satellites. Russia has the same system.
 The moment a rocket motor ignites (most missiles are powered by rocket motors. Cruise missiles use air-breathing jet engines - pretty much the same used by aeroplanes, but they could be ramjets or jets with afterburners. Cruise missiles are usually called precision guided weapons), they know in the West. These missile scouts will start to track the missile or missiles and note their number, velocity and heading. They have about 10 minutes to confirm and reconfirm that missiles are being launched against the West. In this case they will mostly be ICBMs (Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles). Well, despite the heavy name, they are actually simple orbital rockets that can get into orbit and then re-enter the earth at the appropriate location - above their targets. At this point, they will release their thermonuclear warheads or bombs (all modern nuclear bombs carry thermonuclear warheads, that is, warheads that uses a small hydrogen bomb to initiate a chain reaction in its main fission bomb of Plutonium or Uranium). These warheads are shaped like cones and they are about 1.2m in height with a base diameter of about 800mm. The real active ingredient, Uranium or Plutonium inside the conical device is not bigger than a football but they are packed with the horrendous power of creation itself, the power of the nucleus of an atom called the Strong Force.
Two things will then happen in line with strictly established procedures it call it Battle Order.
 Once a missile attack is detected, the US will immediately move it's president, his family, Pentagon chiefs and a few citizens into a bunker that is about 2 kilometers below the ground and under a mountain. It is suspended upon springs so it can withstand tectonic forces from a nuclear blast on the surface. The bunker contains provisions for two years to sustain the occupants. (I have seen the image somewhere about 25 years ago in maybe Times Magazine). Reporters taken there were blindfolded and flown for hours so they will not have a clear sense of direction. The location is totally secret but it is suspected that it is Nevada. It was not dug out directly but a lateral tunnel was created several miles away to this subterranean site.
1. The West will launch countermeasures at these warheads. (Usually, they will be 13 to 17 on each ICBM and at this stage, they are in their terminal altitude in space). This is the threat level the American THAAD anti-missile system is designed to contain. It will fly into space and try to steer  kill vehicles into those warheads and of course, the success rate will understandably only be partial. Some will end up successfully re-entering the earth and dive (under zero power) for their targets. At this point, the Patriot system will come into action and try to swat the warheads. The Patriot complex deals with missiles within the atmosphere.
2. Simultaneously NATO will give orders for its own missile launches and within minutes, you will see missiles rise from silos and from submarines heading East to attack preset targets. B-52s ('Stratofortress'), B1, ('Spirit') and B2 ('Bones') -all long range bombers will take off from the US, Germany and probably Japan armed with hydrogen and Plutonium bombs and head for Russia. There are also about 1,500 nuclear weapons on each side that are currently in the field, mingled with conventional weapons but known to commanders. Those are probably the most dangerous of all these arsenal of nuclear weapons because they are already and permanently dispersed in the field. All - everything will be launched within just about 30 minutes in this make or break final combat.
Everything described above from the moment one side launches its nuclear weapons will not take more than 45 to 60 minutes and it is all over. If the attack takes place at night, right here in Nigeria, if you look northwest towards Europe or east northwest towards the United States, or northeast towards Russia, you will actually see a dull glow in your night sky though you won't hear the thunder of the explosions.
The next three days or even a week will be normal although wind patterns may have become suspect.  Thereafter, you will observe that the sky is getting darker and midday seems like dusk. That is the cloud of a global thermonuclear warfare.
The sun will be screened out for months and plants will die off. This will lead to global famine, first step. Of course, global trade is already gone and the world has reverted to primitive levels. The Internet is no more and telephone services have become epileptic.
Next will come the global outbreak of all forms of cancers from radiation carried around the world by the cloud earlier described. Death will become so much more desirable than life that those alive will curse their lot.
There will be survivors of course: those who have been hidden away in military grade silos and have ample supplies to carry them for about two years.
Those who just manage to go through about three years of life as foragers and scavengers and somehow have not been killed by skin cancer, blood cancer and other forms of metastasis. They are the ones that will populate the new world and begin to try to establish a new civilization

Now you have an idea why NATO keeps avoiding fighting with Russia. It is simply to keep YOU alive.