Author Topic: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity  (Read 2862 times)

Offline KenyanPlato

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If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« on: March 01, 2022, 04:52:37 AM »
Shouldn't the world find a way of eliminating it. I think it a collective failure to allow dictators or dictatorships.
There should be a law an international one that says if a co7ntry falls into hands of a tyrant it will taken over and be under administrative caretare govt till a government by the people is formed. The world would have an army in each region for such an undertaking. We shouldn't allow the Mugabes, hitters, Stalin or mussolinis of this world to be in,ctorol and at the end of it we all have to pay for their cleanup.

In 21st century we need to use our time as human beings doing useful stuff not bombing each other like savages

Offline Kadudu

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Re: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2022, 11:07:55 AM »
You are being naive. Notice how many on this forum busy cheering on the dictators. Some people although educated still prefer dictatorship over democracy. I have given up on lecturing people on these matters.

Offline gout

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Re: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2022, 01:38:00 PM »
The West likes throwing around words like dictator and democracy when it suits them. Even Trump was labelled a dictator but when Bush ignores UNSC resolutions he is a hero.

Putin is elected. If it was about 'dictatorship', Xi who is US greatest creditor and trading partner is the closest we may come to a definition. 
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one ~ Thomas Paine

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2022, 03:15:41 PM »
The West likes throwing around words like dictator and democracy when it suits them. Even Trump was labelled a dictator but when Bush ignores UNSC resolutions he is a hero.

Putin is elected. If it was about 'dictatorship', Xi who is US greatest creditor and trading partner is the closest we may come to a definition.
Xi's government enjoys over 90% support of his people, per a 15-year Harvard study :D https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/
I dare anyone here to show me which "democratic" leader enjoys just a bit more than 50%.

I've come to believe a lot of this stuff like the best governing model (democracy, they say) we believe out of faith, like religion, not facts. What leadership needs is legitimacy, which means the people accept/support your leadership, not necessarily competitive voting blocks that can sometimes split diverse nations irreparably along ethnic or religious lines. The democracy hypothesis is that winning elections confers this legitimacy directly on election night.

In China, legitimacy is earned by delivering. The reason their govt is ever outperforming itself is because it earns its legitimacy by working for its masses. Local govts in China enjoy the same level of support you see in Western democracies, like 50s percentage-wise, but the CCP enjoys 90% support. So which dictatorship? In addition, governance is also evaluated by public surveys; people actually rate whether the sectors they're familiar with (water, electricity, transport, security, health services, etc) are being run well or not, and their input is a big factor in whether the person running things should be replaced or promoted to run an even bigger sector :D. Is it any wonder they grew so fast?

So, is it democracy or dictatorship? I say it's neither. It's a hybrid system that has grown out of Chinese culture, married to socialist principles. What I cannot pretend is that the Western system would do a better job in China. Case in point, India. Neither will I pretend that the Chinese model would do a better job in Europe! 8) Everything doesn't have to be the same. Let every country choose the path that best serves its people.

In China, they enjoy most personal liberties apart from the one about choosing the number of children you can have. The govt doesn't care what you wear, eat, who you love/sleep with, which clubs/movies you watch etc. Its uninvolved in like 99% of its people's personal life/decisions. What they don't enjoy is direct involvement in every decision-making wrung of govt and some political freedoms, for example, the govt will shut down some sites it deems dangerous, and interferes with religious freedoms in some communities, which is of course bad. . . I still cannot pretend their system somehow doesn't work for them when it has taken 800 million out of poverty in a single generation. :D

The only constant I've seen in democracies, from the big U.S. of A to our Kenyan shenanigans is propaganda and fake news. This system is about who spins the best yarn, and the media companies are all in on it. You either:
(1) Sell some conservative red-neck or liberal suburban house-wife or Kenyan mama mboga the most terrifying story you can think up about all the horrible things the other side will do to them if they are allowed to win.
Or
(2) Some false promise you have no intention to keep about changing their life.
Then these three, pumped on all these lies, pick on one day in five years, who will have keys to nuclear weapons and all sorts of unbelievably important things.

Hiyo ndio democracy, and you can't tell me the Chinese are wrong for not wanting it.:D Even Socrates thought it was insane.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2022, 03:42:23 PM »
Shouldn't the world find a way of eliminating it. I think it a collective failure to allow dictators or dictatorships.
There should be a law an international one that says if a co7ntry falls into hands of a tyrant it will taken over and be under administrative caretare govt till a government by the people is formed. The world would have an army in each region for such an undertaking. We shouldn't allow the Mugabes, hitters, Stalin or mussolinis of this world to be in,ctorol and at the end of it we all have to pay for their cleanup.

In 21st century we need to use our time as human beings doing useful stuff not bombing each other like savages

Dictatorships are bad.  Even if you ignore the moral aspect, they present a single point of failure.  The most the world can do is what it's already done - declare a universal set of human rights and enforce them when possible.

Democracies are imperfect; but they are best option we've got.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2022, 03:45:13 PM »
You are being naive. Notice how many on this forum busy cheering on the dictators. Some people although educated still prefer dictatorship over democracy. I have given up on lecturing people on these matters.

It's 2022, nothing should be surprising anymore :D .  That aside, yes, it is ambitious to think you can single-handedly change the mind of someone who can at the swipe of a finger pull up a favorite confirmation bias source(either direction).
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline GeeMail

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Re: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2022, 03:56:24 PM »
The West likes throwing around words like dictator and democracy when it suits them. Even Trump was labelled a dictator but when Bush ignores UNSC resolutions he is a hero.

Putin is elected. If it was about 'dictatorship', Xi who is US greatest creditor and trading partner is the closest we may come to a definition.
Xi's government enjoys over 90% support of his people, per a 15-year Harvard study :D https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/
I dare anyone here to show me which "democratic" leader enjoys just a bit more than 50%.

I've come to believe a lot of this stuff like the best governing model (democracy, they say) we believe out of faith, like religion, not facts. What leadership needs is legitimacy, which means the people accept/support your leadership, not necessarily competitive voting blocks that can sometimes split diverse nations irreparably along ethnic or religious lines. The democracy hypothesis is that winning elections confers this legitimacy directly on election night.

In China, legitimacy is earned by delivering. The reason their govt is ever outperforming itself is because it earns its legitimacy by working for its masses. Local govts in China enjoy the same level of support you see in Western democracies, like 50s percentage-wise, but the CCP enjoys 90% support. So which dictatorship? In addition, governance is also evaluated by public surveys; people actually rate whether the sectors they're familiar with (water, electricity, transport, security, health services, etc) are being run well or not, and their input is a big factor in whether the person running things should be replaced or promoted to run an even bigger sector :D. Is it any wonder they grew so fast?

So, is it democracy or dictatorship? I say it's neither. It's a hybrid system that has grown out of Chinese culture, married to socialist principles. What I cannot pretend is that the Western system would do a better job in China. Case in point, India. Neither will I pretend that the Chinese model would do a better job in Europe! 8) Everything doesn't have to be the same. Let every country choose the path that best serves its people.

In China, they enjoy most personal liberties apart from the one about choosing the number of children you can have. The govt doesn't care what you wear, eat, who you love/sleep with, which clubs/movies you watch etc. Its uninvolved in like 99% of its people's personal life/decisions. What they don't enjoy is direct involvement in every decision-making wrung of govt and some political freedoms, for example, the govt will shut down some sites it deems dangerous, and interferes with religious freedoms in some communities, which is of course bad. . . I still cannot pretend their system somehow doesn't work for them when it has taken 800 million out of poverty in a single generation. :D

The only constant I've seen in democracies, from the big U.S. of A to our Kenyan shenanigans is propaganda and fake news. This system is about who spins the best yarn, and the media companies are all in on it. You either:
(1) Sell some conservative red-neck or liberal suburban house-wife or Kenyan mama mboga the most terrifying story you can think up about all the horrible things the other side will do to them if they are allowed to win.
Or
(2) Some false promise you have no intention to keep about changing their life.
Then these three, pumped on all these lies, pick on one day in five years, who will have keys to nuclear weapons and all sorts of unbelievably important things.

Hiyo ndio democracy, and you can't tell me the Chinese are wrong for not wanting it.:D Even Socrates thought it was insane.

One answer. Social credit system.
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244

Offline KenyanPlato

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Re: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2022, 04:01:43 PM »
The West likes throwing around words like dictator and democracy when it suits them. Even Trump was labelled a dictator but when Bush ignores UNSC resolutions he is a hero.

Putin is elected. If it was about 'dictatorship', Xi who is US greatest creditor and trading partner is the closest we may come to a definition.

Whataboutism..just because your neighbor is a rapist doesn't mean you should,be a rapist

Offline KenyanPlato

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Re: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2022, 04:06:14 PM »
The West likes throwing around words like dictator and democracy when it suits them. Even Trump was labelled a dictator but when Bush ignores UNSC resolutions he is a hero.

Putin is elected. If it was about 'dictatorship', Xi who is US greatest creditor and trading partner is the closest we may come to a definition.
Xi's government enjoys over 90% support of his people, per a 15-year Harvard study :D https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/
I dare anyone here to show me which "democratic" leader enjoys just a bit more than 50%.

I've come to believe a lot of this stuff like the best governing model (democracy, they say) we believe out of faith, like religion, not facts. What leadership needs is legitimacy, which means the people accept/support your leadership, not necessarily competitive voting blocks that can sometimes split diverse nations irreparably along ethnic or religious lines. The democracy hypothesis is that winning elections confers this legitimacy directly on election night.

In China, legitimacy is earned by delivering. The reason their govt is ever outperforming itself is because it earns its legitimacy by working for its masses. Local govts in China enjoy the same level of support you see in Western democracies, like 50s percentage-wise, but the CCP enjoys 90% support. So which dictatorship? In addition, governance is also evaluated by public surveys; people actually rate whether the sectors they're familiar with (water, electricity, transport, security, health services, etc) are being run well or not, and their input is a big factor in whether the person running things should be replaced or promoted to run an even bigger sector :D. Is it any wonder they grew so fast?

So, is it democracy or dictatorship? I say it's neither. It's a hybrid system that has grown out of Chinese culture, married to socialist principles. What I cannot pretend is that the Western system would do a better job in China. Case in point, India. Neither will I pretend that the Chinese model would do a better job in Europe! 8) Everything doesn't have to be the same. Let every country choose the path that best serves its people.

In China, they enjoy most personal liberties apart from the one about choosing the number of children you can have. The govt doesn't care what you wear, eat, who you love/sleep with, which clubs/movies you watch etc. Its uninvolved in like 99% of its people's personal life/decisions. What they don't enjoy is direct involvement in every decision-making wrung of govt and some political freedoms, for example, the govt will shut down some sites it deems dangerous, and interferes with religious freedoms in some communities, which is of course bad. . . I still cannot pretend their system somehow doesn't work for them when it has taken 800 million out of poverty in a single generation. :D

The only constant I've seen in democracies, from the big U.S. of A to our Kenyan shenanigans is propaganda and fake news. This system is about who spins the best yarn, and the media companies are all in on it. You either:
(1) Sell some conservative red-neck or liberal suburban house-wife or Kenyan mama mboga the most terrifying story you can think up about all the horrible things the other side will do to them if they are allowed to win.
Or
(2) Some false promise you have no intention to keep about changing their life.
Then these three, pumped on all these lies, pick on one day in five years, who will have keys to nuclear weapons and all sorts of unbelievably important things.

Hiyo ndio democracy, and you can't tell me the Chinese are wrong for not wanting it.:D Even Socrates thought it was insane.

You need to be put a re-education camp. Claiming that ccp enjoys 95% support is craziness that can only be treated in a anticommunist re-education camp. What happened to you? You went from a human rights lawyer to a full Tankie. You sound like Jihad Joan's

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2022, 04:06:23 PM »
Geemail, I've lots of jitters from conservative American sources about the big, bad "social credit." Like most things, I'll wait to be informed on something other than Western anti-so&so hype. :) I'm sure it has its positives and negatives, like most things. For example, people without jobs or assets are abl to access affordable loan services based on their credit. That's a positive. Negative? The govt has a file on you. If you live in the US, you shouldn't worry. There's a file on you anyway,:D even if you can't access a cheap loan based on it. But wacha tusome kwanza, tuongee na more information.

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2022, 04:09:15 PM »
You need to be put a re-education camp. Claiming that ccp enjoys 95% support is craziness that can only be treated in a anticommunist re-education camp. What happened to you? You went from a human rights lawyer to a full Tankie. You sound like Jihad Joan's
Plato, so now you think Harvard makes up studies because you don't like what they tell you, because you'd rather believe fairytales about nations you don't like rather than actual information, and you accuse me of craziness :)

Talk to me about human rights when you learn to denounce your murderous govt first. :D

Offline Kadudu

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Re: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2022, 04:23:12 PM »
Kim in North Korea gets 99.99% of all votes cast.
Where on this earth does any politician get 90% of the people to back him in a fair and free election? We are all humans and we dissagree on many things. China is state run and people are not even allowed to state any critism about their government. Xi Jingping is now a mini god and schools are forced to teach his doctrin.

You need to be put a re-education camp. Claiming that ccp enjoys 95% support is craziness that can only be treated in a anticommunist re-education camp. What happened to you? You went from a human rights lawyer to a full Tankie. You sound like Jihad Joan's

Offline GeeMail

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Re: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2022, 04:30:28 PM »
Geemail, I've lots of jitters from conservative American sources about the big, bad "social credit." Like most things, I'll wait to be informed on something other than Western anti-so&so hype. :) I'm sure it has its positives and negatives, like most things. For example, people without jobs or assets are abl to access affordable loan services based on their credit. That's a positive. Negative? The govt has a file on you. If you live in the US, you shouldn't worry. There's a file on you anyway,:D even if you can't access a cheap loan based on it. But wacha tusome kwanza, tuongee na more information.

Noting can be good about getting forced loan based on bow to the dear leader. US borrow Communist surveillance from China and China borrowed socialist-capitalism from US of A to balance equation.
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2022, 04:34:33 PM »
Kim in North Korea gets 99.99% of all votes cast.
Where on this earth does any politician get 90% of the people to back him in a fair and free election? We are all humans and we dissagree on many things. China is state run and people are not even allowed to state any critism about their government. Xi Jingping is now a mini god and schools are forced to teach his doctrin.

You need to be put a re-education camp. Claiming that ccp enjoys 95% support is craziness that can only be treated in a anticommunist re-education camp. What happened to you? You went from a human rights lawyer to a full Tankie. You sound like Jihad Joan's

The only reason you'd compare a closed state like N.Korea where you can't even conduct a study like this Harvard one, to a country that is so intermingled with the rest of the world like China, is bias, Kadudu. :D And if we were comparing elections, you'd have a point. Similar surveys were done in SEA countries and in general they showed a lot of satisfaction (like 78%, I think). You really believe Chinese don't know what's happening in the world, enough to form their own opinions on how well their govt is performing? Read that study, maybe see what those scholars opine is the reason for such high satisfaction. Don't just assume things :D Then you'll complain about how educated people won't listen to you when you refuse to entertain any piece of information that contradicts your settled beliefs, no matter the source. Surely with such an approach, you've little right to complain, yes? :D

Offline Georgesoros

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Re: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2022, 04:36:43 PM »
Shouldn't the world find a way of eliminating it. I think it a collective failure to allow dictators or dictatorships.
There should be a law an international one that says if a co7ntry falls into hands of a tyrant it will taken over and be under administrative caretare govt till a government by the people is formed. The world would have an army in each region for such an undertaking. We shouldn't allow the Mugabes, hitters, Stalin or mussolinis of this world to be in,ctorol and at the end of it we all have to pay for their cleanup.

In 21st century we need to use our time as human beings doing useful stuff not bombing each other like savages

No!! No!! Plato.
We learn from dictators. It is part of growing up.
Saddam and Khadafi were taken out. Are Libya and Iraq any better?
It is like saying kill all snakes. Soon you'll be swamped by rats.

Offline GeeMail

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Re: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2022, 04:38:10 PM »
Is it a legitimate study because of Harvard? How can study miss to mention surveillance in China? Biased from the start. Economic power in US and much of the west part of freedom. You cannot be free if govt give you or monitor everything. US suffers surveillance problem but balanced out by economic empowerment and things like first and second amendment.

Question is like asking choose between Kenya or Rwanda democratic dictatorship.
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244

Offline KenyanPlato

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Re: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2022, 04:40:19 PM »
What access did the Havard study get in China? Did the conduct independent polls? Dear Mami is becoming ridiculous with her claims. There is no way to ascertain that the Havard survey is not part ccp propaganda and infiltration of usa institutions

Offline Kadudu

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Re: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2022, 04:41:53 PM »
I never contradicted the support of the Chinese to their government. Mind you China's internet is one of the most censored in the world. So trying to compare the free internet in Kenya with China's is even a joke. Access to knowledge is what makes one make a choice.
The Chinese have no choice to make and no access to any other opinion apart from what their government has to tell them. That is a fact you cannot deny.

The only reason you'd compare a closed state like N.Korea where you can't even conduct a study like this Harvard one, to a country that is so intermingled with the rest of the world like China, is bias, Kadudu. :D And if we were comparing elections, you'd have a point. Similar surveys were done in SEA countries and in general they showed a lot of satisfaction (like 78%, I think). You really believe Chinese don't know what's happening in the world, enough to form their own opinions on how well their govt is performing? Read that study, maybe see what those scholars opine is the reason for such high satisfaction. Don't just assume things.  :D

Offline GeeMail

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Re: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2022, 04:42:57 PM »
Respondent have gun to the head. Harvard researcher write this or deported.
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: If dictatorship bleeds wars and inhumanity
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2022, 04:44:15 PM »
What access did the Havard study get in China? Did the conduct independent polls? Dear Mami is becoming ridiculous with her claims. There is no way to ascertain that the Havard survey is not part ccp propaganda and infiltration of usa institutions
And how do you ascertain anything if everything that contradicts your beliefs even in Western institutions is Chinese infiltration? Sounds like a cult; You've made sure your beliefs can never be contradicted, only confirmed. 8) Instead, you should find contrary studies, etc and present them as counters. You guys just prefer to throw tantrums when people don't go along with your accepted dogmas about the world.