Agreed - Banning Trump an assault on democracy and free speech.

[Dear Mami]

By the way, when I say AOC is morphing into a centrist, I don't mean she doesn't "mouth the words" of Progressives, to borrow Chimamanda's expression. She just plays the "My hands are tied" game typical centrists do. The only place she has breathed fire is the Palestinian issue.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Bitmask your Left-democracy vs the rightwing-republic argument is deep and insightful. I'm not deeply familiar with party politricks here but things are becoming clearer. It really depends on what issue. Traditionally, Democrats tended to side with liberal policies that empowered citizens, for example. This is the irony today, because there are also many democrats who feel the second amendment, for example, should not be touched even though more of them tend to favor gun regulation. This is in stark contrast to republicans most of whom are rabidly against any attempts to water down the second amendment. Gun control is a hot issue right now and most republicans will not support any controls. On issues like climate change, democrats tend to favor federal policies on carbon emissions. Republicans don't agree. With time, the democrats have pushed the US towards a more socialist agenda, which makes their policies stand out against the Republicans.

The liberal/conservative divide of the parties is a relatively recent one.  Historically, both parties harbored politicians on both sides of this divide.  The parties and their political inclination have been in constant flux throughout history.  There are a few periods in history where dramatic shifts occur.  I would wager the current shift traces its origin back to the Southern Strategy during which Dixiecrats started moving towards the Republican party.  50 years in the making.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

By the way, when I say AOC is morphing into a centrist, I don't mean she doesn't "mouth the words" of Progressives, to borrow Chimamanda's expression. She just plays the "My hands are tied" game typical centrists do. The only place she has breathed fire is the Palestinian issue.

But they are.  It's not a game.  I think you need to look a little more closely at the US Senate.  Presently there is nothing AOC can do beyond mouth those words.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

That is not how I understand the issue of corporate influence in American politics.  It's not so much about how a corporation carries out its business as it is about its ability to influence policy through financing of politician's campaigns.

All you say is true, Termi, but the issue of the regulation of speech by social media companies has ALSO been in very serious discussion in both leftist and right-wing circles for a very long time. Perhaps it's because I've been in the Youtube scene following independent media for years now, but this has been a big deal. The influence of Capitalists even over media outputs is also a part of this discussion: paying politicians isn't the only way monopolies corrupt society.

To some extent, yes.  What you say and think might earn you unfavorable coverage on national TV.  This can be abused - I disagree this instance is one such case.  Still, there are a lot of conservatives who are not banned on facebook or twitter including lunatics like Ann Coulter.  Conservatives are not being persecuted by these platforms.  FOX News is the most viewed TV channel in the US.  It spews conservative and racist bullshit 24/7 without any pushback.

Does "oligarchy" it affect both parties?  Probably.  But it's right-wing in origin.  Corporations are able to get off with favorable taxation terms and regulations under Republican administrations.  The Democratic party is generally "hostile" to corporations on that basis.  So their influence is not as pronounced on the Democratic side.  There is a reason AOC and ilk gravitate towards the Democrats rather than Republicans.  It's because in a nutshell, they are definitely not the same.  That's why Keystone pipeline, Arctic drilling etc are on Biden's chopping block.  No.  They are not the same.

Honestly, I'll wait for them to actually be chopped first before I give Dems a shred of credit. Biden so far has promised the moon and delivered crumbs, like Democratic presidents always do: Minimum Wage, Yemen, Private prisons, even this patent-thing. Right now, they are even dropping the climate business we were promised was the most important crisis of our time. I've learned to wait to see what actually happens in implementation, not what Liberal media hypes up. Sure, they make certain they are slightly better than Republicans to keep their base happy but will always leave office with things 99% the same, even when they control both houses.

Keystone XL pipeline nixed after Biden stands firm on permit

AOC in her second terms has morphed into a centrist Democrat in everything but the Israel-Palestine issue. She blocked the force-the-vote movement and even donated against progressive candidates and was heavily criticized for it by leftists. People who go to Capital Hill eventually succumb to the game: the power of Capital. You should see a video of Pelosi 30 years ago I saw some months ago, as a fresh congresswoman. She was exactly like AOC! Singing universal health care in detail and whatnot. Right now, you can't even say she's the same person. So, respectfully, I disagree with you. The American government is a tool of the oligarchy, including the DNC, and its biggest politicians. Everyone goes to Washington with good intentions but eventually succumbs to business as usual, unfortunately.

She just understands the challenges better.  There is institutionalized gridlock that she just cannot bypass.  She doesn't have to be bought to realize that.  Party leadership may be partly to blame.  But they would have nowhere to hide if it were not for real obstacles like the Senate filibuster.  Things pass in the House to go die in the Senate.

The Democratic party as a whole is a center-left party.  It's lately more centrist absorbing never-Trumper Republicans.  While AOC and leftists can quit and join any myriad of leftist parties, they realize that the Democratic party is the only rational party left of the two major parties.  So they cling to it not because they agree with everything it stands for, but because the alternative is the totally unhinged Republican party.

[Nefertiti]

I wonder what Kadame makes of bitmask's lampoon of Rethugs as "totally unhinged."

For me they are unhinged yes on guns. Mass shootings don't move them. Even of kids.

Also on shifting demographics. Don't see the need for gerrymandering in Georgia, Arizona, etc purple states. What is progressive today will be conservative in 2050, so conservatism will never die. Rethug fear of demographics is irrational.

[Dear Mami]

Also on shifting demographics. Don't see the need for gerrymandering in Georgia, Arizona, etc purple states. What is progressive today will be conservative in 2050, so conservatism will never die. Rethug fear of demographics is irrational.

When people focus solely on the culture wars, they get the impression that "things have shifted Left" in the U..S. I don't much care for the culture war; Besides being in some respect socially conservative myself (like when it comes to abortion,) I realized some time ago that this culture focus in the U.S. is a tribalism game the two parties play to maintain their "Right/Left" positioning while they march pretty much together when it comes to the economics. The truth is things have shifted RIGHT. Waaaay right, on the things that matter. Obama in the 80s would've been a moderate Republican. Yet he was called a flaming communist by right-wingers on Fox 247. After Reaganomics took hold, the direction is the opposite in fact. What is "moderate/centrist" now was straight-up "right-wing" a few decades ago. FDR would've been swallowed alive now if he had attempted to implement his social safety nets in 2020, (if they weren't already in place, that is).

I of course think the "Guns rights" and even "Free Speech rights" in the U.S. nuts and these are Right-wing "causes." You people are simply unreasonable with your tendencies to absolutize everything, leaving no room for nuanced policies in important matters. I've been acquainted with many people from all over the world and had heated discussions and debated about politics and so far, these crazy (to me) ideas have been heard only from American mouths:

American: "Everyone has a right to carry guns and other dangerous weapons"
Why?
"We need it to fight the govt if it goes tyrannical."
"But your military is overwhelmingly the most powerful this world has ever known. You'll stop them with your shotguns?"
"Yep!"

Literally, everyone else I've ever met thinks it's sheer insanity to just allow every Tom, Dick, and Harry to run around with dangerous weapons.

Only Americans think paid maternity leave is a weird idea, or publicly funded healthcare "will destroy the economy."

The only "cultural" issues I care about in the U.S.?
1) Police and Justice culture re Black people
2) Education funding

Those are provable systemic issues that affect Blacks and Latins but MOSTLY Black people, however much Right-wingers deny it. The evidence is overwhelming, studies numerous (though they claim there's no evidence or studies that prove this.) Part of my frustration with the DNC is that fixing the economics will FIX these issues for Blacks but they just mouth the words and do not change the system. This makes me believe the entire system is under the thumb of Oligarchs who don't want anything about the economics to change.

[Dear Mami]

Keystone XL pipeline nixed after Biden stands firm on permit

Well, that's great news 4 sure. I'll give credit where it's due. But . . . I still think the Oligarchs have taken over your country, by and large. Hopefully, I'm wrong.

[RV Pundit]

Folks this beyond the USA - let remember these silicon valley social media giants - are everywhere except China that have their own. They almost need to be controlled by UN. They are INCREDIBLY powerful and RICH. Most of them make revenues that would put them in top 30 - if they were countries.

[Dear Mami]

Folks this beyond the USA - let remember these silicon valley social media giants - are everywhere except China that have their own. They almost need to be controlled by UN. They are INCREDIBLY powerful and RICH. Most of them make revenues that would put them in top 30 - if they were countries.

On the wider issue, I agree with the Europeans on the issue of big tech and speech: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-11/merkel-sees-closing-trump-s-social-media-accounts-problematic



Like the Germans said, I think many rights can be rightly interfered with, including freedom of speech, but decisions like this should not be made by a few businessmen but by lawmakers.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Folks this beyond the USA - let remember these silicon valley social media giants - are everywhere except China that have their own. They almost need to be controlled by UN. They are INCREDIBLY powerful and RICH. Most of them make revenues that would put them in top 30 - if they were countries.

On the wider issue, I agree with the Europeans on the issue of big tech and speech: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-11/merkel-sees-closing-trump-s-social-media-accounts-problematic



Like the Germans said, I think many rights can be rightly interfered with, including freedom of speech, but decisions like this should not be made by a few businessmen but by lawmakers.

I find the EU leaders comments either disingenuous or willfully ignorant.  Trump did not have his free speech rights violated, according to the laws(made by lawmakers) of the jurisdiction under which he falls.

[GeeMail]

Folks this beyond the USA - let remember these silicon valley social media giants - are everywhere except China that have their own. They almost need to be controlled by UN. They are INCREDIBLY powerful and RICH. Most of them make revenues that would put them in top 30 - if they were countries.

On the wider issue, I agree with the Europeans on the issue of big tech and speech: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-11/merkel-sees-closing-trump-s-social-media-accounts-problematic



Like the Germans said, I think many rights can be rightly interfered with, including freedom of speech, but decisions like this should not be made by a few businessmen but by lawmakers.

Nice one by Merkel. We have been saying the same thing here but some cannot see it. One would have thought she was in our class. The banning/suspension of Trump is pretty much the way pro-oligarch DNC has almost succeeded in shutting out dissent on climate change and even Coronavirus. Who knows what next? It could be blacks protesting against police brutality, or gun owners speaking up on second amendment rights..... There is a problem and we all know it.

[GeeMail]

Folks this beyond the USA - let remember these silicon valley social media giants - are everywhere except China that have their own. They almost need to be controlled by UN. They are INCREDIBLY powerful and RICH. Most of them make revenues that would put them in top 30 - if they were countries.

On the wider issue, I agree with the Europeans on the issue of big tech and speech: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-11/merkel-sees-closing-trump-s-social-media-accounts-problematic



Like the Germans said, I think many rights can be rightly interfered with, including freedom of speech, but decisions like this should not be made by a few businessmen but by lawmakers.

I find the EU leaders comments either disingenuous or willfully ignorant.  Trump did not have his free speech rights violated, according to the laws(made by lawmakers) of the jurisdiction under which he falls.

That's like saying you're a free slave as long as you stay quiet and humble in massa's house.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

I wonder what Kadame makes of bitmask's lampoon of Rethugs as "totally unhinged."

For me they are unhinged yes on guns. Mass shootings don't move them. Even of kids.

Also on shifting demographics. Don't see the need for gerrymandering in Georgia, Arizona, etc purple states. What is progressive today will be conservative in 2050, so conservatism will never die. Rethug fear of demographics is irrational.

But they really are.  The inmates have taken over the asylum in that party.  Imagine trying to discuss how solve the climate crisis with a party whose standard bearers are now people like Marjorie Taylor, Jim Jordan, Louie Gohmert, Lauren Boebert, Paul Gosar.  And all you'll get back in response is "America First".  Where do you even start?  The latest is their criticism of Biden's decision to send some leftover vaccines to other countries.  There is no reaching them, and that is pretty concerning.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Keystone XL pipeline nixed after Biden stands firm on permit

Well, that's great news 4 sure. I'll give credit where it's due. But . . . I still think the Oligarchs have taken over your country, by and large. Hopefully, I'm wrong.

I think so too.  Though it's been that way for decades, so I tend to make a distinction between that and what I consider a new problem of Republican anti-majoritarion behavior. 

Since 2016, they have moved the "Overton Window" radically towards things that were unthinkable just 10 years ago.  The GOP has made peace with the idea that they can no longer win a majority and are busy working to negate that need in a structural way.  For instance it is now acceptable in their caucus to strategize winning the Presidency through not just a flawed Electoral College, but also through overturning unwanted results all the way to Congress.  While technically possible, this has until recently not been considered thinkable as a strategy by either party; the election ended when one party got the Electoral College and the loser conceded.

[RV Pundit]

BitMask, human rights are UNIVERSAL; doesn't matter how it's written; The right to free speech, thought and expression is a BASIC HUMAN RIGHT; be it in South Sudan or US or Germany. Written, unwritten, name it. It basic human right. You cannot and should not curtail anybody's right to say whatever they want - unless it truly offensive and moral decadent.

Quit this nonsense about US constitution.

The US constitution declares that black man like you is 3/4 or something of human being.

It very irritating to run into technicalities of a 200yr old constitution - to explain human rights violations

Everyone with a brain cell immediately knew something was wrong with banning Trump - even if you disagree totally with whatever political ideas he exposes.

If and when China does this - it's WRONG -whatever laws they Chinese pass in their country - i's simple violation of human rights. The french long explained why inherent human rights - are inherent.

How would you feel if you were kicked out of forums? Violated! Trumps feel the same and his supporters do! His human rights to have free thoughts and to express the same has been violated without due course  and worse without being given a chance to defend himself.

And you cannot say facebook is private - it ceased being private when it invited everyone to their bar. You cannot invite public to your house and then turn around to say it's private.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

BitMask, human rights are UNIVERSAL; doesn't matter how it's written; The right to free speech, thought and expression is a BASIC HUMAN RIGHT; be it in South Sudan or US or Germany. Written, unwritten, name it. It basic human right. You cannot and should not curtail anybody's right to say whatever they want - unless it truly offensive and moral decadent.

Quit this nonsense about US constitution.

The US constitution declares that black man like you is 3/4 or something of human being.

It very irritating to run into technicalities of a 200yr old constitution - to explain human rights violations

Everyone with a brain cell immediately knew something was wrong with banning Trump - even if you disagree totally with whatever political ideas he exposes.

I believe the First Amendment is the most permissive free speech law on the planet.  And even this law, does not entitle Trump or anyone else to a platform.  Trump shit on twitter rules for years with people demanding action.  Twitter literally bent over backwards till they couldn't.  So we just see things differently.  You think a powerful person should be cut some slack - twitter did this with Trump for years.  I think a powerful person should face a bit more scrutiny on those forums, with a lower tolerance for what he is allowed to say.

If and when China does this - it's WRONG -whatever laws they Chinese pass in their country - i's simple violation of human rights. The french long explained why inherent human rights - are inherent.

How would you feel if you were kicked out of forums? Violated! Trumps feel the same and his supporters do! His human rights to have free thoughts and to express the same has been violated without due course  and worse without being given a chance to defend himself.

And you cannot say facebook is private - it ceased being private when it invited everyone to their bar. You cannot invite public to your house and then turn around to say it's private.

I don't disagree that it's annoying to log in "getting ready to write something important" only to be met with a screen telling you to take a hike.  Even then I don't see why Trump deserves sympathy.  He had many other ways of communicating.  Now, someone like Cyprian Nyakundi, I totally sympathize with.  After getting knocked off twitter he found himself talking to an audience of white supremacists on gab; no real recourse in his case.

[Dear Mami]

I find the EU leaders comments either disingenuous or willfully ignorant.  Trump did not have his free speech rights violated, according to the laws(made by lawmakers) of the jurisdiction under which he falls.

Again, no one is saying some law has been violated so there's nothing disingenuous or ignorant about what they are saying at all, which is: a few businessmen shouldn't be able to control public discourse like this; it's defacto dictatorship by a few unelected and unaccountable personalities. Bernie Sanders who is no fan of Trump said the same thing in March, and even these Facebook/Twitter owners admitted the problematic nature of these moves. I am not a free speech absolutist like Pundit, but I'll never be ok with corporate entities been given charge of the direction of political discourse. At least in China, it's the govt that's doing this, not some rich dudes who have no sense of duty or accountability to their populations, and furthermore, China doesn't claim to be based on the principles of freedom like Western countries.
   
https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2021/03/24/twitter-sanders-trump-ban-censorship-capitol-riots/6987757002/

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

I find the EU leaders comments either disingenuous or willfully ignorant.  Trump did not have his free speech rights violated, according to the laws(made by lawmakers) of the jurisdiction under which he falls.

Again, no one is saying some law has been violated so there's nothing disingenuous or ignorant about what they are saying at all, which is: a few businessmen shouldn't be able to control public discourse like this; it's defacto dictatorship by a few unelected and unaccountable personalities. Bernie Sanders who is no fan of Trump said the same thing in March, and even these Facebook/Twitter owners admitted the problematic nature of these moves. I am not a free speech absolutist like Pundit, but I'll never be ok with corporate entities been given charge of the direction of political discourse. At least in China, it's the govt that's doing this, not some rich dudes who have no sense of duty or accountability to their populations, and furthermore, China doesn't claim to be based on the principles of freedom like Western countries.
   
https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2021/03/24/twitter-sanders-trump-ban-censorship-capitol-riots/6987757002/

Angela Markel implies that whatever Twitter did was not legally sanctioned or on dubious legal ground when she says lawmakers should be responsible for free speech.  I guess one could read it differently, though it would be contrived. 

Yes, some are uncomfortable with these actions.  They stopped a bully from using their platform to lobby yet another juvenile insult at an opponent.  While I understand potential for abuse of this power, this particular case does not warrant that level of concern.  We are probably in agreement on the need to moderate this kind of power; we just disagree that the Trump case is an exemplar for the abuse of that power.

[GeeMail]

Proponents of this digital dictatorship by Twitter and FarceBook forget that although out of office, Trump is the de facto GOP leader and represents a constituency that large. By banning Trump, FarceBook and Twitter are delegitimizing and silencing GoP while endorsing the increasingly Socialist Dems who shout democracy all day. Banning Trump is an amazing act in a country that claims to defend democracy. If they want to support Biden, doing so does not have to involve shutting others down otherwise they become a shithole US. African kleptocrats loot and kill opponents. In the US, the tech companies do the same thing digitally and people cheer.

[RV Pundit]

Bitmask cannot understand this. I don't know how to break it down any further. Trump is former POTUS for crying out loud. If you can shut him down - then you are indeed very powerful - and can shut down anything. They banned Trump when he had nuclear codes. Their 14 words platform was more dangerous to be entrusted to POTUS with powers to declare nuclear war.

Proponents of this digital dictatorship by Twitter and FarceBook forget that although out of office, Trump is the de facto GOP leader and represents a constituency that large. By banning Trump, FarceBook and Twitter are delegitimizing and silencing GoP while endorsing the increasingly Socialist Dems who shout democracy all day. Banning Trump is an amazing act in a country that claims to defend democracy. If they want to support Biden, doing so does not have to involve shutting others down otherwise they become a shithole US. African kleptocrats loot and kill opponents. In the US, the tech companies do the same thing digitally and people cheer.