Author Topic: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS  (Read 19636 times)

Offline vooke

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kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« on: October 13, 2014, 03:32:29 PM »
We may rail prosperity gospel thugz 247 but there is the other side of the coin; the idea that prayer, fasting, celibacy, poverty, renunciation of the world and systematic rejection of bodily pleasures is somewhat a measure of spirituality

Francis of Assisi taught this. The reason it don't bother me much is because of its negligible traction even inside Catholicism
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline kadame

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Re: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2014, 04:58:28 PM »
You reminded me of something I read in an old spiritual book about some monks in a certain monastery. The thin ones who drove themselves nuts with excessive asceticsm were very proud because of the austerior asceticism. The fat, round, well-fed monks were humble, and the book's point was trying to highlight the dangers of spiritual pride that comes with such practices. Jesus said when we fast, it should be as much a secret as possible. That way we'll be safe from spiritual pride. So its certainly not a measure of spirituality, and someone can do that and inwardly be rotten if they full of ill intentions. But it also has benefits, which is why we are asked to deny the flesh and to fast.

 I think the logic behind it is to subject the flesh or the "old man" as Paul called it. :) It can be interior like lazy cowards like me prefer it (though I hardly ever do it these days...I really should start) or exterior, like the desert fathers and people like St Francs did it. Personally, I've never been able to practice asceticism exteriorily much, though I try to deny myself something during lent. But from the little experience I have, I can say there is much spiritual benefit that can come from denying the flesh through fasting or some other means of ascetism. There is inner freedom that comes with it, or a sense of not being a slave to the flesh. One lent, I lost an old addiction of mine coz of not touching the bad habit for weeks. The flesh leads many of us to do stuff we don't want, so denying it something it wants once in a while is not bad. I have no problems with asceticism as long as it is kept within reason. Doing what Filipinos do on Good Friday is down right crazy to me. But fasting and other means of self denial, especially secret interior ones are very beneficial. A good one to try is to not insist on your way even though you know you are right or even if you may be wrong. I say that one, because its very hard for me personally and I can count on one hand how many times I've been successful in doing it. But done with the correct interior disposition, it can be freeing to inner attachments to ego and addictions, which can hinder not just how we relate to others but even how we relate to God. Losing attachments to one more thing only makes more room in your heart for the indwelling Trinity. I find it easier to give than to self-deny, which probably means I should self-deny a bit more. But asceticism is just one way to grow spiritually by slowly ridding oneself of attachments, but if there's no prayer, no charity, no obedience, its fruit is nil.

The goal of the interior life is not asceticism or any spiritual practice, its in the growth of the life of the indwelling Divinity in us, until we reach that place where we can honestly say "No longer do I live, but Christ lives in me". The life of God in the soul starts like a seedling, but nurtured with prayer and humility, it can grow more and more and transform us completely into images of Christ. The measure of authentic spirituality is inner holiness which only God can see. It can be seen exteriorly in the fruits of a holy life- patience, gentleness, love, humility, meekness, being long-suffering etc. but apart from that, it is a secret known only to God. Just that he allows some peoples' inner lives to be seen by the evidence of the fruits of the Spirit. So prayer, fasting or anything else we practice is not the goal, but the hidden interior life with God at the centre of our souls is the goal. That's why Paul says the three theological virtues are most important, faith, hope and love, but above all, love. Because these three are how we relate to God inwardly, in that secret room in our souls, where its just him and us.
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline bittertruth

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Re: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2014, 05:39:16 PM »
negro, you say prayer, fasting, celibacy etc. to you is bullshit. Haven't you tried any of these yet, you ought to teach from your experience not what Francis taught.
Kweli the devil is real here.

We may rail prosperity gospel thugz 247 but there is the other side of the coin; the idea that prayer, fasting, celibacy, poverty, renunciation of the world and systematic rejection of bodily pleasures is somewhat a measure of spirituality

Francis of Assisi taught this. The reason it don't bother me much is because of its negligible traction even inside Catholicism
Prov 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life

Offline veritas

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Re: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2014, 05:41:19 PM »
I once fasted for a month. I was having many visions by the second week and felt surges of energy like I was connectd to the heavens directly. I just wanted to pray non-stop and prayed 4 to 16 hours a day. They were powerful times.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2014, 06:38:15 PM »
I guess this is the same thing as mortification.  As Catholics, especially as Opus Dei, we were taught to revere if not aspire to it.  Saint Josemaria Escriva de Balaguer was a great practitioner. 

Now.  There is rejection of bodily pleasures.  Then there is corporal mortification.  This not only rejects the pleasures, but introduces discomforts.  Such as self flagellation, which I consider insane.

There is some benefit in some of those practices such as fasting.  These are beneficial things that are very difficult to do voluntarily.  I still struggle to deny myself snacks in between meals.  One can chalk this up as a form of mortification.

Personally I don't quite do fasting as I detox once every few years.  It cleans up your system.  Invigorating.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

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Offline vooke

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Re: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2014, 07:55:38 AM »
Do you know what is ascetism?
negro, you say prayer, fasting, celibacy etc. to you is bullshit. Haven't you tried any of these yet, you ought to teach from your experience not what Francis taught.
Kweli the devil is real here.


2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline vooke

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Re: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2014, 08:00:44 AM »
THere was a time i was a mad Arsenal fan and I loved my series
Then I went without TV for 4 months. That did it. I only support Wenger from the sidelines and I can and I do go for weeks and months without watching TV. That's an addiction I will never be subject to. I also learnt that I can apply the same to other mild addictions. We really underrate human will. If I want to walk away from .org, I'd just snap my finger and I would never look back

Franco of Asissi thought the epitome of Christianity was begging and extreme poverty. That is nonsense on stilts
I guess this is the same thing as mortification.  As Catholics, especially as Opus Dei, we were taught to revere if not aspire to it.  Saint Josemaria Escriva de Balaguer was a great practitioner. 

Now.  There is rejection of bodily pleasures.  Then there is corporal mortification.  This not only rejects the pleasures, but introduces discomforts.  Such as self flagellation, which I consider insane.

There is some benefit in some of those practices such as fasting.  These are beneficial things that are very difficult to do voluntarily.  I still struggle to deny myself snacks in between meals.  One can chalk this up as a form of mortification.

Personally I don't quite do fasting as I detox once every few years.  It cleans up your system.  Invigorating.

2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline bittertruth

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Re: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2014, 08:40:21 AM »
 self depravation or severe self-discipline and avoidance of all forms of indulgence, typically for religious reasons.
Do you know what is ascetism?
negro, you say prayer, fasting, celibacy etc. to you is bullshit. Haven't you tried any of these yet, you ought to teach from your experience not what Francis taught.
Kweli the devil is real here.


Prov 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life

Offline kadame

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Re: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2014, 09:37:47 AM »

Franco of Asissi thought the epitome of Christianity was begging and extreme poverty. That is nonsense on stilts
Well, St. Francis did practice poverty and that seems odd to us especially people like me who love their trinkets, but to say that he thought of it as the "epitome of Christianity" is inaccurate. St. Francis is famous for his extreme love of people evidenced in his charity to lepers whom he served without recoiling, gentleness to all, including animals, and his literal obedience to Jesus' words in the Gospel, especially the beatitudes and the sermon on the mount, and complete trust in providence.

Yes, he practiced extreme poverty in the sense that he did not own any possessions, except maybe the clothes on his back, but he and his brothers did do work while not accepting gold as payment. Francis was just following his calling, which he felt was not to be yoked to anything in this life, but soon people followed him who wanted to live the same way and eventually, they had to have a rule because they were a community. When his brothers asked him what their rule was, he opened the Bible and read from Jesus' words to the rich young man to sell all and give to the poor and follow him, and Jesus' words to his Apostles not to take any possessions with them, so Francis told them simply, that was to be their rule. And that's how he and other Franciscans did and still do their thing, relying 100% on providence and not owning possessions. Francis himself had been an extremely rich young man before he renounced it all after his father disowned him. Considering all the fruits his life bore, I may not follow his lifestyle myself, but I also do not scoff at it.  St Francis was far holier and more obedient to Christ than anyone I know in real life.
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline vooke

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Re: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2014, 09:43:37 AM »
You didn't know mullah was so evil they would never touch it?
IMPRACTICAL however well intentioned. It is not that you lack the grace to walk as he did,it's just that intelligence got the best of the rest of the church

Franco of Asissi thought the epitome of Christianity was begging and extreme poverty. That is nonsense on stilts
Well, St. Francis did practice poverty and that seems odd to us especially people like me who love their trinkets, but to say that he thought of it as the "epitome of Christianity" is inaccurate. St. Francis is famous for his extreme love of people evidenced in his charity to lepers whom he served without recoiling, gentleness to all, including animals, and his literal obedience to Jesus' words in the Gospel, especially the beatitudes and the sermon on the mount, and complete trust in providence.

Yes, he practiced extreme poverty in the sense that he did not own any possessions, except maybe the clothes on his back, but he and his brothers did do work while not accepting gold as payment. Francis was just following his calling, which he felt was not to be yoked to anything in this life, but soon people followed him who wanted to live the same way and eventually, they had to have a rule because they were a community. When his brothers asked him what their rule was, he opened the Bible and read from Jesus' words to the rich young man to sell all and give to the poor and follow him, and Jesus' words to his Apostles not to take any possessions with them, so Francis told them simply, that was to be their rule. Francis himself had been an extremely rich young man before he renounced it all. And that's how he and other Franciscans did and still do their thing, relying 100% on providence and not owning possessions. Considering all the fruits his life bore, I may not follow his lifestyle myself, but I also do not scoff at it.  St Francis was far more obedient to Christ than anyone I know in real life.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline kadame

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Re: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2014, 10:11:01 AM »
You didn't know mullah was so evil they would never touch it?
IMPRACTICAL however well intentioned. It is not that you lack the grace to walk as he did,it's just that intelligence got the best of the rest of the church
No. St. Francis loved creation far more than anyone. He called every part of it, "brother Fox, sister sun, brother fire", he never thought of it as evil. He just wanted to be free from earthly concerns and to give himself to God as completely as he could. If we are to test something by fruits, I would say Jesus highly approved of St. Francis. Heck, Maybe the rest of us are just too unbelieving. Mother Teresa was a st. Francis follower herself, and she did the same thing in my life time, serving the poor and owning nothing. I don't look at that and think that I'm more intelligent for not living that life. I just consider it is not my calling.

I remember visiting one of mother Teresa's homes in Nairobi, in Langata. The sisters of charity there take care of retarded children that have been thrown away by their poor families who simply have no resources to look after them. The first time I went there, I had a faith crisis. I was so distressed seeing how many kids there were with no more than a few sisters looking after all of them. Keep in mind some of these are 100% dependent children. Some can walk and talk but their mental condition means they have to be helped with feeding, cleanliness, toilet, watched over to keep from accidents etc. I am embarrassed to confess I was scared of them and actually had to be talked into feeding one by one of the sisters. And when I did, it was completely forcing. Above the boards they have a picture of Mother Teresa and a quote of hers reminding her sisters that "when you give a drink to a thirsty person, it is Jesus himself you are giving the drink to" They have quotes from the Gospel all over with Jesus' words about such service. So I thought to myself "this kid is Christ!", and I kid you not, I was able to feed him with love as opposed to recoil and the kid could tell the difference because he responded differently! The sister told me, "the kids know when you love them", so if you "serve" them while recoiling inwardly, they can somehow catch the vibe even though they cant speak or even move their heads some of them or hold food in their mouths, outwardly helpless but inwardly may be quite aware. Likewise, St Francis is known to have washed disfigured lepers with his bare hands and served them with the utmost respect, as if he was washing and serving a prince not an outcast.

People like St. Francis and Mother Teresa and the Desert fathers take Jesus at his word. They don't try to fluff it and make it more comfortable, so they look plain nuts to the rest of us, but I cannot look at that and think that I'm more intelligent because I'm not capable of living that life. We don't all have the same calling. After all, most of us are called to a life of family and responsibility which is incompatible with that lifestyle. Like Jesus said "Let him who can receive it, receive it!" :D
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline vooke

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Re: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2014, 10:23:20 AM »
it is that attitude towards money
Think through. If you hate it so much and avoid it at all costs, with what will you help the needy?
IMPRACTICAL is why they are a non-entity, praised in literature but everyone knows they was deluded loonies with a confused
perception of holiness

Zero scriptural basis
You didn't know mullah was so evil they would never touch it?
IMPRACTICAL however well intentioned. It is not that you lack the grace to walk as he did,it's just that intelligence got the best of the rest of the church
No. St. Francis loved creation far more than anyone. He called every part of it, "brother Fox, sister sun, brother fire", he never thought of it as evil. He just wanted to be free from earthly concerns and to give himself to God as completely as he could. If we are to test something by fruits, I would say Jesus highly approved of St. Francis. Heck, Maybe the rest of us are just too unbelieving. Mother Teresa was a st. Francis follower herself, and she did the same thing in my life time, serving the poor and owning nothing. I don't look at that and think that I'm more intelligent for not living that life. I just consider it is not my calling.

I remember visiting one of mother Teresa's homes in Nairobi, in Langata. The sisters of charity there take care of retarded children that have been thrown away by their poor families who simply have no resources to look after them. The first time I went there, I had a faith crisis. I was so distressed seeing how many kids there were with no more than a few sisters looking after all of them. Keep in mind some of these are 100% dependent children. Some can walk and talk but their mental condition means they have to be helped with feeding, cleanliness, toilet, watched over to keep from accidents etc. I am embarrassed to confess I was scared of them and actually had to be talked into feeding one by one of the sisters. And when I did, it was completely forcing. Above the boards they have a picture of Mother Teresa and a quote of hers reminding her sisters that "when you give a drink to a thirsty person, it is Jesus himself you are giving the drink to" They have quotes from the Gospel all over with Jesus' words about such service. So I thought to myself "this kid is Christ!", and I kid you not, I was able to feed him with love as opposed to recoil and the kid could tell the difference because he responded differently! The sister told me, "the kids know when you love them", so if you "serve" them while recoiling inwardly, they can somehow catch the vibe even though they cant speak or even move their heads some of them or hold food in their mouths, outwardly helpless but inwardly may be quite aware. St Francis is known to have washed disfigured lepers with his bare hands with the utmost respect, as if he was washing a prince not an outcast.

People like St. Francis and Mother Teresa and the Desert fathers take Jesus at his word. They don't try to fluff it and make it more comfortable, so they look plain nuts to the rest of us, but I cannot look at that and think that I'm more intelligent because I'm not capable of living that life. We don't all have the same calling. After all, most of us are called to a life of family and responsibility which is incompatible with that lifestyle. Like Jesus said "Let him who can receive it, receive it!" :D
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline kadame

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Re: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2014, 10:30:08 AM »
it is that attitude towards money
Think through. If you hate it so much and avoid it at all costs, with what will you help the needy?
IMPRACTICAL is why they are a non-entity, praised in literature but everyone knows they was deluded loonies with a confused perception of holiness

vooke, what do you mean "non-entities"? Franciscans are here with us, 1,000 years after St. Francis. I think you need to read a bit more about them before you provide a critique. God provides for them through others, they just don't get "paid" for work done, which they consider relying on themselves as opposed to relying directly on providence, but God provides as he promised the Apostles.
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline vooke

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Re: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2014, 10:43:19 AM »
kadame,
Arianism which basically denies the deity of Jesus predates Francis of Asissi. Islam too. The point is I can't measure a doctrine's authenticity by its age.

I can't ridicule the sacrifices these people put for humanity and am sorry it appears that way. What is undeniable is pretense at total detachment from anything material is as toxic as materialism. The added advantage is it is way too impractical and as such it has had minimal traction
vooke, what do you mean "non-entities"? Franciscans are here with us, 1,000 years after St. Francis. I think you need to read a bit more about them before you provide a critique. God provides for them through others, they just don't get "paid" for work done, which they consider relying on themselves as opposed to relying directly on providence, but God provides as he promised the Apostles.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline kadame

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Re: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2014, 10:59:01 AM »
it is that attitude towards money......Zero scriptural basis
I think you are imposing an attitude on them about money that they don't have. They never thought it was evil, they just don' want to have it.Must everyone love money to be normal? Here, in the rich young man's story, Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

I doubt you would say Jesus hates money, yet he instructed someone to give it up. Franciscans just do what that rich young man could not do :D They give everything they have to the poor, including what they receive from others and including their own services.

If it was so impractical, it would never work, and it did, and has done so for centuries. God provides, like he said to his apostles when he sent them out two by two, "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give. "Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support". So I cannot look down on those who do that which I am incapable of doing, why think low of someone for loving God completely with all he has...because he does it differently from me? That's not a good enough reason since not everyone must be like me, and for all I know, my life may not be that standard I think it is.

kadame,
Arianism which basically denies the deity of Jesus predates Francis of Asissi. Islam too. The point is I can't measure a doctrine's authenticity by its age.

I can't ridicule the sacrifices these people put for humanity and am sorry it appears that way. What is undeniable is pretense at total detachment from anything material is as toxic as materialism. The added advantage is it is way too impractical and as such it has had minimal traction
vooke, what do you mean "non-entities"? Franciscans are here with us, 1,000 years after St. Francis. I think you need to read a bit more about them before you provide a critique. God provides for them through others, they just don't get "paid" for work done, which they consider relying on themselves as opposed to relying directly on providence, but God provides as he promised the Apostles.
vooke, I mentioned 1,000 years because you said they are a non-entity outside literature. But Franciscans have been among the most important orders in the church for a millennium, so its not accurate to portray their impact as "non-entity". Catholics who know a bit of their history know that the impact of st. Francis is not something tiny. The works of charity the church is famous for, in education, health and charity in general, they are usually works performed by orders such as that of st Francis, st. Dominic, st. Benedict etc. People look at the works and see "the catholic church", but if you look deeper, it is orders of people who have renounced the world in order to perform these services who are actually responsible, and the Franciscans are among them. So they may be quiet and behind the scenes, but they are not non-entities. Their work bears much fruit. In fact, I would say without these groups, western civilization would not be where it is today.

Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline vooke

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Re: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2014, 12:26:38 PM »
kadame
don't take offence. Francis of Assisi avoided even touching money like plague and he taught his disciples the same. These extremes are what I call IMPRACTICAL

The ascetic movement is not really numerically significant is another point. They rode on the back of Catholic church. So you have a few monks but behind them is the church's vaults. If the Catholicism did that on non-ascetics, the results would not be any different
it is that attitude towards money......Zero scriptural basis
I think you are imposing an attitude on them about money that they don't have. They never thought it was evil, they just don' want to have it.Must everyone love money to be normal? Here, in the rich young man's story, Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

I doubt you would say Jesus hates money, yet he instructed someone to give it up. Franciscans just do what that rich young man could not do :D They give everything they have to the poor, including what they receive from others and including their own services.

If it was so impractical, it would never work, and it did, and has done so for centuries. God provides, like he said to his apostles when he sent them out two by two, "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give. "Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support". So I cannot look down on those who do that which I am incapable of doing, why think low of someone for loving God completely with all he has...because he does it differently from me? That's not a good enough reason since not everyone must be like me, and for all I know, my life may not be that standard I think it is.

kadame,
Arianism which basically denies the deity of Jesus predates Francis of Asissi. Islam too. The point is I can't measure a doctrine's authenticity by its age.

I can't ridicule the sacrifices these people put for humanity and am sorry it appears that way. What is undeniable is pretense at total detachment from anything material is as toxic as materialism. The added advantage is it is way too impractical and as such it has had minimal traction
vooke, what do you mean "non-entities"? Franciscans are here with us, 1,000 years after St. Francis. I think you need to read a bit more about them before you provide a critique. God provides for them through others, they just don't get "paid" for work done, which they consider relying on themselves as opposed to relying directly on providence, but God provides as he promised the Apostles.
vooke, I mentioned 1,000 years because you said they are a non-entity outside literature. But Franciscans have been among the most important orders in the church for a millennium, so its not accurate to portray their impact as "non-entity". Catholics who know a bit of their history know that the impact of st. Francis is not something tiny. The works of charity the church is famous for, in education, health and charity in general, they are usually works performed by orders such as that of st Francis, st. Dominic, st. Benedict etc. People look at the works and see "the catholic church", but if you look deeper, it is orders of people who have renounced the world in order to perform these services who are actually responsible, and the Franciscans are among them. So they may be quiet and behind the scenes, but they are not non-entities. Their work bears much fruit. In fact, I would say without these groups, western civilization would not be where it is today.


2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline kadame

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Re: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2014, 07:58:19 AM »
vooke, I'm not taking offence, but you need to understand that the relationship between monks and other 'religious' to the church is very different from that of clergy and the church. In general, religious groups (monks, nuns, friars, lay/secular religious etc) do not get their property from clergy. They either make it on their own, through work on a farm or something, or they get donations from the laity. In the church, 'religious' are considered some form of laity, so their property does not belong to the church and vice versa. So they did not "ride on the carholic church", unless you are talking about the laity who have been supporting religious for a long time. Those like some Franciscans who rely on donations do not acquire a lot of property, anyway. St Francis' practice of not acquiring gold is simply taking Jesus' words literally, "do not aquire gold, silver or copper for you money belts" And in fact they would go round town or anywhere "two by two" according to that same passage. This is the verse he placed his whole rule on. I do not consider it extreme, I consider it a special calling for some people but not for everyone. In other words, it would be impractical only if EVERYONE decided to become a monk, just like it would be impractical if everyone decided to become a church leader or a member of the clergy.

As for the number of Monks/nuns, they are fewer in the last 50 years only because of continued secularization in formerly catholic countries and a general weakening of the faith. Fewer people even go to mass or follow church teaching at all or accept even basic beliefs than 50 years ago, leave alone make any sacrifices, so their current number is not a reflection of the church's attitude towards ascetics but rather a refection of a generalized weakening of Christian faith in former Christian lands. There are many orders in the west that became "modernized/liveralized" in the 60s following the whims of the times and they are dying. But those ones that remained faithful to their faith and to the original intent of their founders are growing and getting vibrant young members who are getting vocations. A few decades ago, most catholic families in old catholic countries had either a priest or a religious in the family. Moreover, celibacy in general is not seen as a vocation for the majority because the natural state is marriage which by default is the vocation/calling for the majority, in fact it is the default calling for all, which is why celibacy and other forms of self-denial are necessarily sacrificial and therefore not going to be the undertaking of the majority in any respect.
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline vooke

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Re: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2014, 08:35:24 AM »
Thank you very much ka-quail.
That is informative
Now, wacha mchezo. Revert to your original name or I unleash ten threads on Catholicism!
vooke, I'm not taking offence, but you need to understand that the relationship between monks and other 'religious' to the church is very different from that of clergy and the church. In general, religious groups (monks, nuns, friars, lay/secular religious etc) do not get their property from clergy. They either make it on their own, through work on a farm or something, or they get donations from the laity. In the church, 'religious' are considered some form of laity, so their property does not belong to the church and vice versa. So they did not "ride on the carholic church", unless you are talking about the laity who have been supporting religious for a long time. Those like some Franciscans who rely on donations do not acquire a lot of property, anyway. St Francis' practice of not acquiring gold is simply taking Jesus' words literally, "do not aquire gold, silver or copper for you money belts" And in fact they would go round town or anywhere "two by two" according to that same passage. This is the verse he placed his whole rule on. I do not consider it extreme, I consider it a special calling for some people but not for everyone. In other words, it would be impractical only if EVERYONE decided to become a monk, just like it would be impractical if everyone decided to become a church leader or a member of the clergy.

As for the number of Monks/nuns, they are fewer in the last 50 years only because of continued secularization in formerly catholic countries and a general weakening of the faith. Fewer people even go to mass or follow church teaching at all or accept even basic beliefs than 50 years ago, leave alone make any sacrifices, so their current number is not a reflection of the church's attitude towards ascetics but rather a refection of a generalized weakening of Christian faith in former Christian lands. There are many orders in the west that became "modernized/liveralized" in the 60s following the whims of the times and they are dying. But those ones that remained faithful to their faith and to the original intent of their founders are growing and getting vibrant young members who are getting vocations. A few decades ago, most catholic families in old catholic countries had either a priest or a religious in the family. Moreover, celibacy in general is not seen as a vocation for the majority because the natural state is marriage which by default is the vocation/calling for the majority, in fact it is the default calling for all, which is why celibacy and other forms of self-denial are necessarily sacrificial and therefore not going to be the undertaking of the majority in any respect.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline kadame

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Re: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2014, 09:37:09 AM »
Thank you very much ka-quail.
That is informative
Now, wacha mchezo. Revert to your original name or I unleash ten threads on Catholicism!
:D I've added "little", yaani "ka" before Bella so at least it resonates with my usual Kadame, kababe, kaNgina, Kairetu  :D Just reas it as kaBella and you wont see a difference! :zen:
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: kadame, Ascetism is pure BS
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2014, 01:06:21 PM »
THere was a time i was a mad Arsenal fan and I loved my series
Then I went without TV for 4 months. That did it. I only support Wenger from the sidelines and I can and I do go for weeks and months without watching TV. That's an addiction I will never be subject to. I also learnt that I can apply the same to other mild addictions. We really underrate human will. If I want to walk away from .org, I'd just snap my finger and I would never look back

Franco of Asissi thought the epitome of Christianity was begging and extreme poverty. That is nonsense on stilts
I guess this is the same thing as mortification.  As Catholics, especially as Opus Dei, we were taught to revere if not aspire to it.  Saint Josemaria Escriva de Balaguer was a great practitioner. 

Now.  There is rejection of bodily pleasures.  Then there is corporal mortification.  This not only rejects the pleasures, but introduces discomforts.  Such as self flagellation, which I consider insane.

There is some benefit in some of those practices such as fasting.  These are beneficial things that are very difficult to do voluntarily.  I still struggle to deny myself snacks in between meals.  One can chalk this up as a form of mortification.

Personally I don't quite do fasting as I detox once every few years.  It cleans up your system.  Invigorating.

Mild addictions are easy to overcome with basic discipline.  I take cold showers without hesitation.  I drink tea without sugar or milk.  I skip snacks and all sorts of treats.  And it feels good.  If I were so inclined, I'd probably call it spiritual nourishment.

I notice you mention Francis Assissi and his vows of poverty.  On the opposite extreme is Opus Dei.  If all you bring to the table is poverty and a love of Christ.  You have a snowball's chance in hell of becoming a numerary.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman