Author Topic: colonial Error in writing RV names  (Read 2474 times)

Offline RVtitem

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colonial Error in writing RV names
« on: June 08, 2019, 03:14:54 PM »
There seems to have been a big mistake in writing rv names during the colonial days. From spoken language point of view, rv names should be more like Ptolemy, ptah i.e.

ptoo - kiptoo
Ptum- kiptum

Pokot seem to understand this aspect better and have names like Losiakou David Pkosing.

Reading and speaking names like with kip- prefix is difficult and unnatural even to indigenous rv. Such grief mistake need to be reviewed and corrected!

Offline Gumzo

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Re: colonial Error in writing RV names
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2019, 06:03:00 AM »

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: colonial Error in writing RV names
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2019, 07:29:52 AM »
That about right..but ki and Ch are two key kalenjin gender article.

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: colonial Error in writing RV names
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2019, 10:30:45 AM »
That about right..but ki and Ch are two key kalenjin gender article.
Pundit, I've always wondered about the gender articles. Do they extend to non-human nouns like in European languages (French/Italian etc)? You know the way we have ngeli in Swahili (and bantu languages), do you have that but in more gendered terms like Europeans?

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: colonial Error in writing RV names
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2019, 10:38:12 AM »
I am not a linguistic ( I am very poor as you well know in that area) but from what I heard - the linguistic differ - Greenberg who 'won' says it's not that deep.Others disagreed. I think Kalenjin is one of those language that became hard to classify and were put in waste packets - its mixed nilo-cushitic language- with half cognate words nilotic - half cushitic.

Here you go...

Whereas the article in Masai, as in Greek, can express both
gender and number in one monosyllable, Nandi denotes gender
by prefixes ; and the definite article, which is an affix, can
only indicate number. 2 The prefixes are kip (ki, kim) and

1 The Gallas also seem to have the custom of sacrificing the first-horn. It
is said that they expose and leave to die any children who may be born in
the first few years after marriage. See Maud, Geog. Journ., 1904, pp. 567-8.

2 It is interesting to find that these languages show the same variation in
the position of the article that meets us in Aryan and Semitic languages.




INTRODUCTION xxv

chep (che, chem) for the masculine and feminine respectively,
these terms being understood, as in Masai, to denote not merely
sex but degrees of size and strength. Sometimes these pre-
fixes are simply equivalent to masculine and feminine termi-
nations, ki-mingat a deaf man, che-mingat a deaf woman
(= surdus, surda). But they frequently serve to construct
a derivative noun, and signify a person who is connected with
the simple noun. Thus, lakwa, a child, chep-lakwa, not a
female child, but a nurse; kericho, medicine, kip-kericho, a
doctor ; ter, a pot, chep-ter-e-nio, potter ; kes, to cut, chep-kes-
wai, knife. They may be added to verbs as well as nouns, and
then form a nomen agentis ; e.g. kip-uny-i-ke. Here unyike
is simply a verb in the third person singular, he hides himself,
and the whole means ' one who hides himself '. The simple
form of the affixed article is t in the singular and k in the
plural, but it not infrequently assumes the form ta, to : da, do,
in the singular, in order, it would seem, to prevent the word
from ending in two consonants, e. g. sese, dog, seset ; but ror,
heifer, rorta. 1 Beside the article, demonstrative affixes can
be appended to nouns, which with these additions assume
a very varied appearance. Thus from sese are formed seset,
sesonni, sesenju ; from tien, tiendo, tieni, and tienwagichu.
But the article is a less necessary part of a word than in
Masai, and a noun used in a general sense dispenses with it,
e. g. maoitos ma pei, Fire does not cross water.

The plural is formed by the addition of various affixes,
such as oi,ai; s and n, either alone or with vowels ; ua and
wag, all of which have analogies in Masai. These affixes are
often attached by connecting syllables, and to the whole may
be added the plural article, so that we obtain very complicated
forms, such as Jcepen, cave, kepenosiek ; kor, land, korotinuek ;
ma, fire, mostinuek. As in Masai, many nouns are in their
simple form collective, and a suffix must be added to make
a true singular, indicating one person. Thus Nandi means
the Nandi tribe, and with the plural article becomes Nandiek.
A Nandi man is Nandiin, and the same with the definite
article becomes Nandiindet. Yet with this power of build-
ing up complicated forms Nandi has not attempted to indicate

Thus it is prefixed in Masai and Turkana, affixed in Nandi and Bari.
Similarly, though prefixed in most European languages, it is affixed in
Bulgarian, Boumanian, Albanian, and the Scandinavian languages. It is
prefixed in Hebrew and Arabic, but Aramaic uses an affix. In Somali and
Galla it is affixed.

1 Sometimes e is inserted before the article, sometimes a or o is added after
it. The cause of this difference in treatment is not plain. Thus ror, heifer,
rorta ; but ror, stubble, roret : kotig, eye, konda ; but long, shield, loHget

Pundit, I've always wondered about the gender articles. Do they extend to non-human nouns like in European languages (French/Italian etc)?

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: colonial Error in writing RV names
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2019, 12:56:52 PM »
Greenberg was something else.  The entire anthropology and linguistics departments of all the Kenyan universities have not contributed a fraction of what this rugged mzungu did in formally classifying African languages.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: colonial Error in writing RV names
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2019, 03:06:24 PM »
Yes he was brilliant - he has also been accused for being a racist jew.
Greenberg was something else.  The entire anthropology and linguistics departments of all the Kenyan universities have not contributed a fraction of what this rugged mzungu did in formally classifying African languages.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: colonial Error in writing RV names
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2019, 05:11:33 PM »
Yes he was brilliant - he has also been accused for being a racist jew.
Greenberg was something else.  The entire anthropology and linguistics departments of all the Kenyan universities have not contributed a fraction of what this rugged mzungu did in formally classifying African languages.

I can see that.  It seems to be common with the old anthropologists.  Some of the best African language grammars were written like a hundred years ago by kaburus roaming Africa.  I remember seeing some of that stuff online.  The depth is amazing, only matched by the latent racism.  Check out this Luganda grammar document .  It's almost hilarious.  Our own "experts" seat in their ivory towers regurgitating stuff from colonials instead of taking up from where they left.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman