Robina, possibly the best system considering the negro's chronic problems?

[Kadame6]

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http://theconversation.com/our-democracy-can-learn-from-chinas-meritocracy-51471

Was reading about after that discussion on the Chinese Communist Party: I think the points that professor makes are somehow moot vis-a-vis the West that he's making the points to (their systems are largely working just as well if not better than China)...but take a look at his criticism of democracy vis-a-vis our elections.

The most universal complaint I've seen across all parties on fbook is the election of the Waigurus and Sonkos (and lamenting that Kidero even if he lost got more votes than is reasonable considering his reign in Nairobi) and fall of Karuas and similar folks.

This guy, Bell, makes a very valid point:

How can villagers elect a president? On what basis? Do they know him in any meaningful way that would make that decision sensible? No. So they end up relying on media, propaganda etc. He says at a local level of leadership, people should chose from people they know well enough to make sensible decisions. They know who the thief is, the con artist, the lazy one, the flake, the reliable one. They can make better decisions. But when the office is far removed, say, like a governor or even MP, they know far less than they should. Especially if there is no previous record or tenure and a clear sense of how those decisions affect them.

Democracy assumes that the average voter is not an idiot. That's its biggest flaw. In a developing country like ours, this flaw is so glaring anyone could tell you for free. So at the higher level, the Chinese have a meritocracy that rigorously tests at every stage, people for intellectual and moral fibre, ideally allowing only very bright and moral individuals to advance. I guess thats how theyve managed to keep the system focussed on the economic good of the masses.

Of course it still has its issues, and is not free of corruption, but its not to the debilitating extent that it has affected Africans.

Without borrowing everything from them, I m wondering if we had been better off following these principles than the western ones we inherited and tried to emulate?

[Kichwa]

You cannot say these are the results of a Democracy if it is not a democracy.  Not all systems where people vote are democratic.  What we have in Kenya is a system where people vote to choose their leaders.  When Ouru became president in 2013, he said he will be president for 10 years and then Ruto for 10.  Nobody elected in a truly democratic country talks like that. Ouru knew that this was not a democracy or if he thought it was, he was telling us that he would change it and he has.  We are now pretty much living in a one party state. All they have to do now is fix a few things here and there and then we are back to Baba na Mama days.

http://theconversation.com/our-democracy-can-learn-from-chinas-meritocracy-51471

Was reading about after that discussion on the Chinese Communist Party: I think the points that professor makes are somehow moot vis-a-vis the West that he's making the points to (their systems are largely working just as well if not better than China)...but take a look at his criticism of democracy vis-a-vis our elections.

The most universal complaint I've seen across all parties on fbook is the election of the Waigurus and Sonkos (and lamenting that Kidero even if he lost got more votes than is reasonable considering his reign in Nairobi) and fall of Karuas and similar folks.

This guy, Bell, makes a very valid point:

How can villagers elect a president? On what basis? Do they know him in any meaningful way that would make that decision sensible? No. So they end up relying on media, propaganda etc. He says at a local level of leadership, people should chose from people they know well enough to make sensible decisions. They know who the thief is, the con artist, the lazy one, the flake, the reliable one. They can make better decisions. But when the office is far removed, say, like a governor or even MP, they know far less than they should. Especially if there is no previous record or tenure and a clear sense of how those decisions affect them.

Democracy assumes that the average voter is not an idiot. That's its biggest flaw. In a developing country like ours, this flaw is so glaring anyone could tell you for free. So at the higher level, the Chinese have a meritocracy that rigorously tests at every stage, people for intellectual and moral fibre, ideally allowing only very bright and moral individuals to advance. I guess thats how theyve managed to keep the system focussed on the economic good of the masses.

Of course it still has its issues, and is not free of corruption, but its not to the debilitating extent that it has affected Africans.

Without borrowing everything from them, I m wondering if we had been better off following these principles than the western ones we inherited and tried to emulate?

[Nefertiti]

best man

[MOON Ki]

settle for Ruto as our best bet. Hopefully with him Kenya will be more of Singapore than Rwanda.

Putting a hyena in charge of anything is not an idea that readily springs to mind, and his "viability" as a "strong" candidate says a great deal about where Kenya is today.   But, with a drug dealer now governor of the Capital County, why not?   

[Kadame6]

Ok, Robina, I totally get the concept and appeal of a benevolent dictator. What I don't get is your conviction that this can be had with Ruto. What have you seen in him that makes you think he is the benevolent sort? I'd buy it with Uhuru a tiny bit, but Ruto doesnt seem the altruistic sort.

If we could find St. Francis of Assisi, the Buddha or even Jesus Christ himself, I'd enthusiastically assent to their benevolent dictatorship. But your average human being, even the good one, cannot be trusted with so much power. Only a perfectly altruistic, readily self-sacrificing character who will never put himself above his people: these people are so rare that when we find them, we worship them. So doesnt seem like a good strategy to me.

At least an authoritarian system like China's which is extremely flawed can still ensure some real benefit to a LOT of people whether or not the guy at the top drops dead at a podium at 35 or rules for 60 years.

[veritas]

Democracy .. is long dead.

It remains a shell of a psychological weapon to make the masses feel like they're included and matter.

It was utterly gutted RIP by post-truth. There's no going back now. The only way forward is a revolution.

I've been singing this song for awhile now. Evidence is slower than thought.

[veritas]

The only people who can lead this revolution are scientists. We're heading into an exponential anarchy... human extinction. The only way out is to let go of progress & fix up this mess called capitalism.

[Kadame6]

Democracy .. is long dead.

It remains a shell of a psychological weapon to make the masses feel like they're included and matter.

It was utterly gutted RIP by post-truth. There's no going back now. The only way forward is a revolution.

I've been singing this song for awhile now. Evidence is slower than thought.

Democracy is ineffective as a system of governance in an illiterate society and a corrupt or divided culture. It assumes people know too much stuff they don't. That's a big assumption.

Ideally chapter six was to serve as some sort of filter before the choices were put before the people but it died. Now with Jubilee's hold of Parliament, I am not sure how much of the 2010 constiution will remain. The Chinese way ensures many politicians like those in Kenys never even get to participate in politics at all. It stems from their very old culture. The Westeen systems have enough filters and mechanisms to catch those who slip in or if not catch them, at least restrict the damage they can do.

[veritas]

Democracy is ineffective as a system of governance in an illiterate society and a corrupt or divided culture. It assumes people know too much stuff they don't. That's a big assumption.

Ideally chapter six was to serve as some sort of filter before the choices were put before the people but it died. Now with Jubilee's hold of Parliament, I am not sure how much of the 2010 constiution will remain. The Chinese way ensures many politicians like those in Kenys never even get to participate in politics at all. It stems from their very old culture. The Westeen systems have enough filters and mechanisms to catch those who slip in or if not catch them, at least restrict the damage they can do.

Agreed.

Also the laws of physics and science as we knew it- it wasn't the full story. There was so much more.

It's like taking a photo. Science use to perceive the world in black and white, then it was color, now... it's a different lense ... something not static but in doing so it distorts a sense of reality, blur the lines between truth and lies, dreams from reality, present to future. It needs to establish some continuum, standards, base points etc. for this new phase of humanity/ world.

It's no longer about a democracy or a representation. It's a communal knowing, power embodied in each of us (Foucault). Like I guess it's just a matter of driving the mass conscience into order while preserving enough liberties for a quality existence. Such things require a careful design into programming the mass human psyche as opposed to controlling the mass market.

[einstein_g]

I'm not sure that pure democracy is the best system for us right now.

We're developing for God's sake. We need to act fast to fix our serious problems and achieve our greatness.

If childbirth wasn't a horrible experience for a fellow Kenyan, if we all had decent housing with running water, sure let's make our political system a reality show.

We don't want "loosers" who aren't contributing optimally to fixing these things with the urgency required.

Devolution gives me hope. If we can keep churning out great leaders at the grassroots, things could start feeling better at the top. So yes, grassroots meritocracy.

We need very strong, conscious efforts to hold us together until this starts to work.

We have one problem, that we keep looking sadomasochistically at our history. Wahenga walisema yakimwagika hayazoleki. Let this history instead give us patience and hope that, yes we're making progress.
 
Colonialists took advantage of us, because they found us ignorant and weak. Yes, they did some really horrible stuff. Beyond that, proxy battles for the cold war kind of messed us up. This is how the world continues to work.

My very fundamental belief is that we can be really great together, and we don't have an option but to keep pursuing this greatness with resilience.

I'm praying that we'll find a way to pull together.

Damn, I need to open a church in Muthurwa.

I'm not idealistic, I do business.

[Nefertiti]

ruthless efficiency to pull through .. by mobilizing the mass to come along. These traits show up in Ruto at present - running circles around us all - we are already saying it - Rutoism

See: the US enjoys the freedom dividend - China the population dividend - what does Kenya do? We cannot be the US because our human asset is underdeveloped - nor China because we are not cultural-cohesive - so?

[Kadame6]

ruthless efficiency to pull through .. by mobilizing the mass to come along. These traits show up in Ruto at present - running circles around us all - we are already saying it - Rutoism

See: the US enjoys the freedom dividend - China the population dividend - what does Kenya do? We cannot be the US because our human asset is underdeveloped - nor China because we are not cultural-cohesive - so?

Hmmm....very interesting points.

I'm not sure I get the sense in which you mean the cream rises to the top. I mean, you could say Idi Amin 'rose to the top' as did any number of disastrous "leaders" littering our history. A ruthless psycopath could easily rise to the top, and who knows how many have in Africa? When you think of people like Mobutu who had access to massive wealth and could not bring himself to provide any tangible improvement to his people? Sure the cream rose. But to whose benefit?

His individual life greatly benefited, sure, he ensured himself maximum benefit. He could not possibly have done better for himself. But to the "organism" he was a part of? His country, his community? To them he was no better than a malignant tuma. Just like cancer cells ensure their own survival at the expense of all the other cells and slowly kill the whole body.

Psychologists who study sociopathy believe these kinds of individuals make up a hugely disproportionate share of business executives and political leadership. This is in the U.S. with its many checks. I cannot imagine how much that share explodes in our environment: I wouldnt want to see a study in that. The traits of selfishness and lack of concern for others is a talent in that man eat man world of capitalism and politics. But it would be in no one's interest but the psycopath if he aquired absolute power.

Survival of the fittest isn't a strategy I want to bank the wellbeing of a people on precisely because of the risks of such power falling into the hands of one of these predatory human beings. The "fittest" too often extremely self-centred and selfish people. They "survive" precisely because they are "unburdened" by a sense of responsibility to others. They simply go for what THEY want in a straight tragectory, stepping on whomever they need to, getting rid of anything and anyone in their way to get what they want.

How do you keep a monster like this out of the seat of absolute power? A person like this will better his people ONLY if he sees an advantage to himself that outweighs the inconveniences of working FOR others. What will be in it for him if he already has all the money and power he could want?

So to me, morality is just as much an indespensable competence in good leadership and governance as is intelligence and the decisiveness you speak of. The latter two ensure effectiveness, as you point out, but it takes a moral character to choose a good aim/goal (for his community) in the first place.

[Kadame6]

Einstein_g, devolution is one of those "good aims" that people who care about the community fought for. Your side propagandized the whole thing as majimboism until 2007 bomb forced them to accept as Kibaki wanted a legacy after 2007 tarnished him. This is the thing Im asking Robina. Relying on the ruthless to pick the aims assumes they will pick the aims that are good for people and not just for themselves.

[Nefertiti]

Kadame - we already have all those aims and checks and balances. A system is the totality of society and writing clauses in the constitution does not make them our values. Like our useless chapter six. Mobutu or Amin or Bokasa were just plain dictators - or brutal dictators - not benevolent dictators. They were visionless thrifters - a big difference with what I have in mind.

China is actually a dictatorship - where activists get incarcerated for years - but we call it a meritocracy because of its prominent positive traits. This Chinese meritocracy reasoning is the same we apply to the benevolent dictator - a visionary who must use iron fist to elevate society. Singapore's Lee Kwan Yew limited freedoms yet was benevolent - cos the Asian Tiger. Rwanda ... we don't quite know yet. Kenya has been a mediocracy - now full of squalor - am saying a new "meritocratic" katiba full of good values and aims would be only a wish without a proper driver.

The "benevolence" is measurable in achievement. It can only be benevolent dictatorship when we see the results. But we know our beaten path would lead us nowhere. We have been crawling and are yet to achieve flight - a benevolent dictator will take us there - Rutoism is the closest to it that I see. This is Robina's personal opinion, OK? I know all opinion is personal don't hang me for it.

[Kadame6]

Lol! Robina, why would I hung you for it? Im just enjoying the different viewpoints and bantaring. Both our ideas are useless as we can do nothing to effect them: this is just old useless fun conversation. Hope I didnt come across intense. I just instinctively debate. Not the best of traits in a female, I know. These days I deliberately tone it down but sometimes I forget.

[einstein_g]

Kadame6, I very much appreciate the fact that you seem to think hard about this.

At the height of elections-related violence, I was a bit  brainwashed to think that majimbo would mean fracturing the whole (that I desperately believe in).

Devolution has been great, I love it. Only that corruption has also been devolved and the spotlight is only on national govt. So these guys are eating like there's no tomorrow. I have first hand information on this.

I believe in Uhuru. Come here in 4 years and you'll agree with me. Who else can weave through all sorts of people with his level of natural ease? There are questions around "willing buyer, willing seller", I choose not to focus on that. I focus on the fact that this guy is seriously working hard, and I can bet you that this time around, no one will be eating around him.

Kenya is on the move. I don't want anyone to be left out. Foreigners are noticing opportunities and jumping right in. I'm personally working with good talent from wherever, whether they support NASA or Jubilee.

To sum up, I feel optimistic. Progress is being made. County governments have started dropping non-performers like hot potatoes. Performers will then rise to national clout.

In 2022, it's quite likely that there'll be no serious challenger from Kikuyuland for even DP position.

I might be gone for a while soon, to Build the Nation. But you've raised good points that definitely remain on my mind.

As you continue to rightly examine the big picture, I invite you to participate in local development in whatever way you can.

[Kadame6]

Participate in local development? Hmmm...ok. Will try.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

http://theconversation.com/our-democracy-can-learn-from-chinas-meritocracy-51471

Was reading about after that discussion on the Chinese Communist Party: I think the points that professor makes are somehow moot vis-a-vis the West that he's making the points to (their systems are largely working just as well if not better than China)...but take a look at his criticism of democracy vis-a-vis our elections.

The most universal complaint I've seen across all parties on fbook is the election of the Waigurus and Sonkos (and lamenting that Kidero even if he lost got more votes than is reasonable considering his reign in Nairobi) and fall of Karuas and similar folks.

This guy, Bell, makes a very valid point:

How can villagers elect a president? On what basis? Do they know him in any meaningful way that would make that decision sensible? No. So they end up relying on media, propaganda etc. He says at a local level of leadership, people should chose from people they know well enough to make sensible decisions. They know who the thief is, the con artist, the lazy one, the flake, the reliable one. They can make better decisions. But when the office is far removed, say, like a governor or even MP, they know far less than they should. Especially if there is no previous record or tenure and a clear sense of how those decisions affect them.

Democracy assumes that the average voter is not an idiot. That's its biggest flaw. In a developing country like ours, this flaw is so glaring anyone could tell you for free. So at the higher level, the Chinese have a meritocracy that rigorously tests at every stage, people for intellectual and moral fibre, ideally allowing only very bright and moral individuals to advance. I guess thats how theyve managed to keep the system focussed on the economic good of the masses.

Of course it still has its issues, and is not free of corruption, but its not to the debilitating extent that it has affected Africans.

Without borrowing everything from them, I m wondering if we had been better off following these principles than the western ones we inherited and tried to emulate?

Robina believes the Negro will change once we get advanced enough to discover and fix the relevant genes thanks to the white man's science.  It sucks that I can only rebut this with meek examples if at all.  I am still looking for a robust rebuttal.

The idea of keeping the focus local seems believable to me, as an option.  Because this is how the African for the most part was before colonialism.  This is how most developed countries operate.  The center, plays a minimal role in anybody's life.  I think colonialism not only exploited Africans, but also destroyed their sense of responsibility and ownership. 

[Nefertiti]

Robina believes the Negro will change once we get advanced enough to discover and fix the relevant genes thanks to the white man's science.  It sucks that I can only rebut this with meek examples if at all.  I am still looking for a robust rebuttal.

The idea of keeping the focus local seems believable to me, as an option.  Because this is how the African for the most part was before colonialism.  This is how most developed countries operate.  The center, plays a minimal role in anybody's life.  I think colonialism not only exploited Africans, but also destroyed their sense of responsibility and ownership.

You agree with me on the main point. I realize just now you are secretly fishing for a rebuttal.

[MOON Ki]

I think colonialism not only exploited Africans, but also destroyed their sense of responsibility and ownership. 

One way to start to deal with these is through thorough, sustained, and proper civic education.   Sadly, nobody seems to be interested in that, despite talk.   For those in power, MOAS-type calculations render it "unhelpful".  Then there are those whose day-job, usually paid for by some wazungu, is exactly that, but you will find that they aren't very enthusiastic about the "rough reserves", where the need is greatest.

Also, in addition to the sense of responsibility and ownership, there is what one may loosely term "self-confidence".  It is not unusual to find wazungu doing things in Africa that Mwafrika, even with meagre resources, is quite capable of doing for himself.