I love the way some Kenyans think!!!

[Georgesoros]

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Its really sad.
Professional bodies are also accredited by an international union. If the bill passes then you may as well not take an engineering course in Kenya. The reason being you cant work in big projects that require international accreditation.
http://www.nation.co.ke/news/Professional-bodies-to-have-no-role-in-varsity-vetting/-/1056/2909744/-/yj02yyz/-/index.html

[RV Pundit]

I disagree with you.

Degree should never be equated with professional qualification. You can be a lawyer without being an advocate. You can have Bsc in Engeneering without being registered Engineer. You can have Bcom without being dictated by CPA/CPS body. Same with actuaries, doctors, name it. Proffesional body should focus on offering practice certificates.

Degree should only equip students with basic minimum theoretical framework in their field...with professional bodies...setting their own exams and offering a "practise" certificate...that focus on what they think is their qualification standard..including basic degree recognized by Higher Education Board.

Proffesional bodies can insist on 2yr internship, practical experiences, written exams, whatever they want; but they cannot dictate to universities globally on what their curriculum will be. Set you own damn curriculum, offer your own damn material, set your own damn exams, set how many years (make it even 20yrs) so somebody can belong to your elite club...but leave BASIC education (bachelors degree) to be set by universities under Higher Education Board.

Majority of engineers or name it I know end up elsewhere....majority never get to practise..depending on where they land their first jobs. Kidero never become a pharmacist.

It should be easy to weed out those that are half-baked by just setting an exam!

[MOON Ki]

I disagree with you.

Degree should never be equated with professional qualification. You can be a lawyer without being an advocate. You can have Bsc in Engeneering without being registered Engineer.

Being a registered/professional engineer or whatever is an entirely different matter from having a degree from an accredited program.   

Majority of engineers or name it I know end up elsewhere....majority never get to practise..

That may be so.   But it is not a good argument for doing away with the requirement to ensure that the courses are of adequate standard.

Here it is: In terms of engineering skills, innovation, research, production etc. Kenya as a country must surely rank somewhere near the world bottom.   If we consider the countries are in, say, the top 25, do they have professional organizations that are involved in the accreditation of university degrees?    And in these countries, do people with engineering degrees ever end up working in something other than engineering?  Etc.  (And one can similarly consider other types of "professional degrees".)

Kenya should try to learn the world leaders, not from the bums.

[RV Pundit]

That your proposition.Back it up with data from the "best". I work with many folks around the world who are majority doing something completely different from their basic degree. In fact I read in the US folks change careers on average 3-6 times before they retire. There has be some flexibility to allow that to happen.

If you insist on a tight coupling of professional qualification (practical) with education (theories) then you end up with inflexible system.

I don't know how it done worldwide; but I would imagine getting practise certificate in any trade is different from getting bachelors degree;

How will kenya's Engineers Board dictate to kenyans who end up studying in Uganda or Somali or Greece? on what their bachelors degree should look like.

It upon them to set their OWN Accreditation. That would include how many years one has been practicing, any exams, the works.

The problem as I see is these so called kenya proffesional bodies are used to having only 1 or 2 university churning out graduate...and suddenly their is an explosion...with 50 plus universities! and half million bachelors annually.

Universities should never deviate from their core activity..ACADEMICS...just so they can meet contemporary professional qualification you need in job market.

Also a student should never be forced to narrow down him or herself into job related qualifications....unless their desire is to practise in that field...some just want to learn for the heck of it.

That may be so.   But it is not a good argument for doing away with the requirement to ensure that the courses are of adequate standard.

Here it is: In terms of engineering skills, innovation, research, production etc. Kenya as a country must surely rank somewhere near the world bottom.   If we consider the countries are in, say, the top 25, do they have professional organizations that are involved in the accreditation of university degrees?    And in these countries, do people with engineering degrees ever end up working in something other than engineering?  Etc.  (And one can similarly consider other types of "professional degrees".)

Kenya should try to learn the world leaders, not from the bums.

[MOON Ki]

That your proposition.Back it up with data from the "best". I work with many folks around the world who are majority doing something completely different from their basic degree. In fact I read in the US folks change careers on average 3-6 times before they retire.

I still don't get it: What does the fact that people work in a different area from their basic degree or the fact that USA folks change careers 3 to 6 times has nothing to do with the accreditation of "professional degrees".      Engineering programs in all good US universities are accredited; that's just a fact.

Still sticking to engineering as an example ... Some examples:

* ABET accredits engineering programs in the USA. (Several other national systems also rely on it.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABET

* Japan: Japan Accreditation Board for Engineering Education
http://www.jabee.org/english/

* South Korea: Accreditation Board for Engineering Education of Korea
http://www.abeek.or.kr/htmls_kr/en/index.jsp

* German: German Accreditation Agency for Study Programs in Engineering and Informatics
http://www.akkreditierungsrat.de/index.php?id=31&L=1

And so on, and so forth.

If you insist on a tight coupling of professional qualification (practical) with education (theories) then you end up with inflexible system.

I wouldn't see that as what an accreditation system does, but all these countries that have good accreditation systems don't seem to be suffering much inflexibility.

How will kenya's Engineers Board dictate to kenyans who end up studying in Uganda or Somali or Greece? on what their bachelors degree should look like.

I don't understand what you are getting at.     If the issue is one of recognizing (for the purposes of professional registration) engineers who have studied elsewhere, then KEB has to work out a system for that.   A solution can include, for example, taking into account whether or not the person graduated from an accredited program in Uganda, Somalia, or Greece.

Also a student should never be forced to narrow down him or herself into job related qualifications...

Accreditation by a professional body is not about "job related qualifications".   

[RV Pundit]

And you seem to have avoided the UK (and commonwealth) that we borrow heavily from..which favors decoupling academic from professional qualifications.

Professional bodies should restrict themselves to offering practice certificate and licenses. Universities should restrict themselves to offering academic qualifications.

It should be easy to weed out the fakes graduates through an exam.

That your proposition.Back it up with data from the "best". I work with many folks around the world who are majority doing something completely different from their basic degree. In fact I read in the US folks change careers on average 3-6 times before they retire.

I still don't get it: What does the fact that people work in a different area from their basic degree or the fact that USA folks change careers 3 to 6 times has nothing to do with the accreditation of "professional degrees".      Engineering programs in all good US universities are accredited.

Still sticking to engineering as an example ... Some examples:

* ABET accredits engineering programs in the USA. (Several other national systems also rely on it.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABET

* Japan: Japan Accreditation Board for Engineering Education
http://www.jabee.org/english/

* South Korea: Accreditation Board for Engineering Education of Korea
http://www.abeek.or.kr/htmls_kr/en/index.jsp

* German: German Accreditation Agency for Study Programs in Engineering and Informatics
http://www.akkreditierungsrat.de/index.php?id=31&L=1

And so on, and so forth.

If you insist on a tight coupling of professional qualification (practical) with education (theories) then you end up with inflexible system.

I wouldn't see that as what an accreditation system does, but all these countries that have good accreditation systems don't seem to be suffering much inflexibility.

I don't know how it done worldwide; but I would imagine getting practise certificate in any trade is different from getting bachelors degree;

How will kenya's Engineers Board dictate to kenyans who end up studying in Uganda or Somali or Greece? on what their bachelors degree should look like.

I don't understand what you are getting at.     If the issue is one of recognizing (for the purposes of professional registration) engineers who have studied elsewhere, then KEB has to work out a system for that.   A solution can include, for example, taking into account whether or not the person graduated from an accredited program in Uganda, Somalia, or Greece.

Also a student should never be forced to narrow down him or herself into job related qualifications...

Accreditation by a professional body is not about "job related qualifications".   

[MOON Ki]

And you seem to have avoided the UK that we borrow heavily from.

I have not avoided it.   I just can't list everything.   Here it is:

Engineering Council UK:

(Go to the websites of the sector-specific organizations for more on their roles in accreditation.)

http://www.engc.org.uk/standards-guidance/standards/accreditation-of-higher-education-programmes-ahep/

[veritas]

A degree is not enough to work in engineering unless you want to go into business stuff which isn't engineering per se. You need industry experience. When my dad first began with just his electrical engineering degree and mba, he had to study electrical trade to be licenced and work in the field. All my employees have engineering degrees from universities and I feel sorry for these chaps because they have to study at tafe for 4 years as an apprentice to master practical work skills to be licenced to work in these fields on top of the 4 years already studied at university. My dad gained 6 licences (had to sit for very long exams and practical exams which obviously he topped) and in total about 10 years of practical training before he started his own business. Unless you plan to be an academic like pursue a phd, you need to obtain various licences to practice engineering which isn't offered at universities.

Also RVP is right to say in Commonwealth countries things are very different. Like here in Oz tradies are respected because it's bloody hard to do what they do. Going to uni is not common. Like in Oz less then 30% of students go to uni and lots of them are overseas students who go back to their country afterwards.

I just sat for a telco exam recently and I seriously thought I was going to fail. The theory was easy but the practical. WOW. I wass asked to make a main distribution frame from scratch, hook up lan, etc. etc. WOW have any of yous installed a power socket or cut through a steel tube? It took me 6 hours to finish the practical exam with much help from other students. I didn't think I'd finish it. Would they ever ask something like this in university ? Hell no.

My hands were swollen, bleeding with welts for weeks after that practical exam. It's still pretty calloused. The good thing is I passed which means I can just supervise others on site and not have to pay a fortune for licenced subcontractors. The instructor was  amazing- nothing like those shatty pretentious uni lecturers. These are real men.

[veritas]

[RV Pundit]

Thanks Veritas for the personal ancedotes that make it the difference btw academic and professional/trade qualification crystal clear.Universities under their regulatory body (Commision for Higher Education in Kenya) should concentrate on the academic side of things..while professional bodies...esp in Kenya..should concentrate on ETHICS & practical skills...registering and deregistering processional who fail or bring disrepute to their profession.

[veritas]

Thanks RVP. Absolutely. Universities should stick to what they do... think. Professional/trade-- ethics, practical, safety, quality, guidelines, policies etc. The two don't mesh.

[Georgesoros]

Yea they can pAss laws to delink accreditation and professionalism, but they will not be allowed to work in certain areas. That's very limiting. They can only do Jua kali. That's why we have falling buildings because of the falling standards in engineering, especially in Kenya. Greed is nature to man. Builders hire uncooked engineers who don't care about codes. It's very expensive to hire half cooked experts.

[RV Pundit]

It really a problem of ethics..corruption..cutting corners..otherwise building a hse is not rocket science...and any half decent polytechnic graduate can do this.

Yea they can pAss laws to delink accreditation and professionalism, but they will not be allowed to work in certain areas. That's very limiting. They can only do Jua kali. That's why we have falling buildings because of the falling standards in engineering, especially in Kenya. Greed is nature to man. Builders hire uncooked engineers who don't care about codes. It's very expensive to hire half cooked experts.

[veritas]

Are you kidding me? It's still engineering. It's harder than rocket science. Machines build a rocket. People build houses. Do you have any idea how many compensation claims we've had to pay over the years? If you place a fresh laborer onsite they fall. They ALWAYS fall. In industrial jobs rarely virtually never would you put an apprentice or anyone other than 10 years+ experience onsite. Those people who build offices (perhaps Kenya is cutting corners here...) need to have at least 5 years experience onsite. You confine apprentices or new laborers to little houses and occasional shops. Never big offices or industries because they fck up and they always do.

We've had cases of a house burning to ashes from failing to oversee an apprentice do some simple wiring. We once placed a very good final year apprentice in an oil rig project, and the fcker fell from the top, the fck was he thinking? was he suicidal? playing Jack from titanic? lucky he was attached to my dad, who saved his life. No fresh laborer or apprentice can be safely placed in anything over 1 storey tall.

[Georgesoros]

lol.
Pundit, I didn't think you'll say that anyone can build a brick house. Theres a lot involved. Right cement/water ratio, measurements etc. Imagine building a 20 story. Requires a lot. use Half baked civil engineer you'll see the place collapse in 10 yrs instead of 400.

Are you kidding me? It's still engineering. It's harder than rocket science. Machines build a rocket. People build houses. Do you have any idea how many compensation claims we've had to pay over the years? If you place a fresh laborer onsite they fall. They ALWAYS fall. In industrial jobs rarely virtually never would you put an apprentice or anyone other than 10 years+ experience onsite. Those people who build offices (perhaps Kenya is cutting corners here...) need to have at least 5 years experience onsite. You confine apprentices or new laborers to little houses and occasional shops. Never big offices or industries because they fck up and they always do.

We've had cases of a house burning to ashes from failing to oversee an apprentice do some simple wiring. We once placed a very good final year apprentice in an oil rig project, and the fcker fell from the top, the fck was he thinking? was he suicidal? playing Jack from titanic? lucky he was attached to my dad, who saved his life. No fresh laborer or apprentice can be safely placed in anything over 1 storey tall.