Author Topic: This going to be problematic for the ICC Judges.  (Read 4194 times)

Offline RV Pundit

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This going to be problematic for the ICC Judges.
« on: May 26, 2015, 02:20:26 PM »
How do your test evidence that were never tested in court. Evidence disowned. As far as I know they can determine the witnesses were lying on stand (when they recanted) but how can they determined they were telling the truth to OTP?

http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/evidence-against-ruto-not-strong-bensouda#sthash.AV2l0nDx.dpbs

Offline Omollo

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Re: This going to be problematic for the ICC Judges.
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2015, 03:29:29 PM »
Wasn't there some amendment that went along with attendance excusals for Uhuru and Ruto? What I wasn't aware of is it retroactively affecting cases already in progress. However if Kenya was blinded by the need to have the excusal apply to Uhuru, then Bensouda squeezed this one in the same chink.

How do your test evidence that were never tested in court. Evidence disowned. As far as I know they can determine the witnesses were lying on stand (when they recanted) but how can they determined they were telling the truth to OTP?

http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/evidence-against-ruto-not-strong-bensouda#sthash.AV2l0nDx.dpbs
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: This going to be problematic for the ICC Judges.
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2015, 03:46:56 PM »
You mean state parties amendment. I'm can't seem to recall any that would affect the issue at hand. Bensauda want un-sworn  and untested statement the witnesses gave previously before they recanted [under intimidation or bribery -unproven allegation] and went ahead to testify and recant those earlier statement..used.  This is just problematic at several levels.

I guess the questions remain did Bensauda during cross-examination of her hostile witnesses manage to convince the judges those witnesses were lying now not then.

Wasn't there some amendment that went along with attendance excusals for Uhuru and Ruto? What I wasn't aware of is it retroactively affecting cases already in progress. However if Kenya was blinded by the need to have the excusal apply to Uhuru, then Bensouda squeezed this one in the same chink.

Offline Omollo

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... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: This going to be problematic for the ICC Judges.
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2015, 04:44:50 PM »
Wasn't there some amendment that went along with attendance excusals for Uhuru and Ruto? What I wasn't aware of is it retroactively affecting cases already in progress. However if Kenya was blinded by the need to have the excusal apply to Uhuru, then Bensouda squeezed this one in the same chink.

Yes, after Kenya's mischief, the Assembly of States parties decided that something had to be done to stop cases of people finishing or bribing witness.     So at the 2013 session they amended  Rule 68 (Rules of Procedure and Evidence) to cover such cases.   (The rule before the amendment did allow the admission of prior recorded testimony; they just modified it.)

On the other hand, Article 51 of the Rome Statute has always stated that amendments to the Rules cannot be applied retroactively to the detriment of the accused.   Nevertheless, the OTP is arguing that there is nothing here that is retroactive or detrimental to the accused; the argument seems to be a bit of a stretch, and it will probably be tough to make it fly.

Other things:

* The job in a typical court is basically to determine whether or not the accused did it.   The ICC is different, in that judges also have a mandate to "uncover the truth". 

In a typical court, if the accused jumps up and says "Yes, I did it!  And I would do it again!   So there!", that would be the end of the trial phase.   At the ICC, the judges can still order that the trial go ahead if that would help uncover the truth.   So it is possible to imagine the judges letting in the evidence, to uncover the truth, even if it is not directly used against Ruto.   At the end of the day, they could, for example, write a decision that says "there is strong evidence to say he did it, but not enough to convict him".

* The fact that prior testimony is admitted without the witnesses being tested on particular points on the stand does not necessarily mean that its worth cannot be determined.   Consider, for example, a case where four witnesses all say that "X did Y on date Z".   Three of those are tested in court, and their statements are verified, but the fourth now says he made it all up and recants.    One does not then conclude that the fourth statement is all junk. 

* A third point to keep in mind is that several of these recanting witnesses were questioned (via video-link), and the judges have no doubt formed an opinion on their recanting and sudden losses of memory.  What that opinion might be is unknown.

It's hard to guess which way the judges will rule.   But it seems fairly clear that even if the prior testimonies are admitted---and the Defence has a strong case against their admission---it will be difficult very to use much of it to damage Ruto.  The OTP surely knows that, so perhaps they have other reasons for this tactic.

If I were a betting man, I'd go with a 51% chance of the evidence going on.   
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: This going to be problematic for the ICC Judges.
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2015, 05:22:08 PM »
I see. That clarifies. However even if OTP manages to go thro this hurdle and get the judges to scrutinize previous statements the probative value of such  is worse than those that a witness who died after having recorded a statement with OTP but never testifies. At least the Judges can see 50-50 chance of some truths there. If they are corroborated by two or more sources; they become useful.

But now....Bensauda want the judges to admit the lowest evidence [not tested in court] that has been denied[How low can we go?]. Sounds like a waste of time. Except for Crime Against Justice case like Baraza.

My thinking was Bensauda having scored a major one in getting the hostile witness to testify; she would have used the cross-examination to bring back recorded statements; and that should have been it. Of course she didn't go far with cross-examination and now she wants to judges to do the impossible...turn the benefit of doubt upside down :)

If the threshold at this stage remain..BEYOND reasonable doubt...poor Bensauda can as well terminate her case.


Yes, after Kenya's mischief, the Assembly of States parties decided that something had to be done to stop cases of people finishing or bribing witness.     So at the 2013 session they amended  Rule 68 (Rules of Procedure and Evidence) to cover such cases.   (The rule before the amendment did allow the admission of prior recorded testimony; they just modified it.)

On the other hand, Article 51 of the Rome Statute has always stated that amendments to the Rules cannot be applied retroactively to the detriment of the accused.   Nevertheless, the OTP is arguing that there is nothing here that is retroactive or detrimental to the accused; the argument seems to be a bit of a stretch, and it will probably be tough to make it fly.

Other things:

* The job in a typical court is basically to determine whether or not the accused did it.   The ICC is different, in that judges also have a mandate to "uncover the truth". 

In a typical court, if the accused jumps up and says "Yes, I did it!  And I would do it again!   So there!", that would be the end of the trial phase.   At the ICC, the judges can still order that the trial go ahead if that would help uncover the truth.   So it is possible to imagine the judges letting in the evidence, to uncover the truth, even if it is not directly used against Ruto.   At the end of the day, they could, for example, write a decision that says "there is strong evidence to say he did it, but not enough to convict him".

* The fact that prior testimony is admitted without the witnesses being tested on particular points on the stand does not necessarily mean that its worth cannot be determined.   Consider, for example, a case where four witnesses all say that "X did Y on date Z".   Three of those are tested in court, and their statements are verified, but the fourth now says he made it all up and recants.    One does not then conclude that the fourth statement is all junk. 

* A third point to keep in mind is that several of these recanting witnesses were questioned (via video-link), and the judges have no doubt formed an opinion on their recanting and sudden losses of memory.  What that opinion might be is unknown.

It's hard to guess which way the judges will rule.   But it seems fairly clear that even if the prior testimonies are admitted---and the Defence has a strong case against their admission---it will be difficult very to use much of it to damage Ruto.  The OTP surely knows that, so perhaps they have other reasons for this tactic.

If I were a betting man, I'd go with a 51% chance of the evidence going on.   

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: This going to be problematic for the ICC Judges.
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2015, 08:17:35 PM »
My thinking was Bensauda having scored a major one in getting the hostile witness to testify; she would have used the cross-examination to bring back recorded statements; and that should have been it.

No, she could not have done it at the time.  It can only be done after the witness has had his/her performance.   If you look at what Omollo posted, the relevant part is

Quote
"the person has failed to attend as a witness or, having attended, has failed to give evidence with respect to a material aspect included in his or her prior recorded testimony";


MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline bryan275

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Re: This going to be problematic for the ICC Judges.
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2015, 08:57:04 PM »
Also a quick polygraph test will soon separate the liars from the honest ones...