Do you know your self enough, to exist without matter?

[veritas]

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Who are you without consciousness?

The issues in the world today are perhaps to do with the reliance on consciousness when defining problems and solutions. Technology can supplement oh so much, especially when hindered by our bio thumb print.

[vooke]

Veritas,
How else would you approach a problem without consciousness?

[Bella]

Well, Veritas, I'm confused. Your thread-title refers to existence without matter but the opening post refers to existence without consciousness. That doesn't make sense to me unless you believe matter and consciousness are the same? Is that what you are saying? Please elaborate a bit more.

PS: I think just about every religious/spiritual person believes consciousness outlives the body/matter. That's why I'm confused by the thread topic.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Who are you without consciousness?

The issues in the world today are perhaps to do with the reliance on consciousness when defining problems and solutions. Technology can supplement oh so much, especially when hindered by our bio thumb print.

The subject matter is deep.  Though in a nutshell, without conciousness one is a zombie.

Recently MOON Ki brought up a report about the imment viability of human head transplants.

I think it is fairly obvious if my body inherits vooke's head, I effectively become vooke in a different body.

What is not obvious though.  If I inherit portions of vooke's brain.  Do I become a cross between the pastor and the atheist?

[vooke]

Who are you without consciousness?

The issues in the world today are perhaps to do with the reliance on consciousness when defining problems and solutions. Technology can supplement oh so much, especially when hindered by our bio thumb print.

The subject matter is deep.  Though in a nutshell, without conciousness one is a zombie.

Recently MOON Ki brought up a report about the imment viability of human head transplants.

I think it is fairly obvious if my body inherits vooke's head, I effectively become vooke in a different body.

What is not obvious though.  If I inherit portions of vooke's brain.  Do I become a cross between the pastor and the atheist?

You are one sick man

[veritas]

Windy lolz. There have been cases where transplant recipients take on donor lifestyles. Like for instance:

http://www.grailworld.com/issues/20/phenomenon-memory-transplant

Bodily reflexes like eyeballs are tethered to DNA. Eyeballs react to stimuli before reaching conscious awareness. Even when I tap this on my ipad I'm not really consciously aware of it, given there's a delay from translating my reflexes to consciousness. That's why I think habit is a powerful thing.

If Windy had Vooke's brain, I think Windy would be slapping himself while preaching...

[veritas]

Well, Veritas, I'm confused. Your thread-title refers to existence without matter but the opening post refers to existence without consciousness. That doesn't make sense to me unless you believe matter and consciousness are the same? Is that what you are saying? Please elaborate a bit more.

PS: I think just about every religious/spiritual person believes consciousness outlives the body/matter. That's why I'm confused by the thread topic.

I apologise for the confusion. I guess I should elaborate more. I don't mean cartesian dualism- mind body causal phenomena. I was thinking more process philosophy. The paramaters of existence embedded in history, self reflection, prescriptive- science/technology/observation exercised by way of procedures, habits, practice etc. We give so much emphasis in extrapolating and dissecting the design or framework of existence when we perhaps should be shifting our attention to the process itself.

In this sense, consider that the mind is a product defined by matter- or limited by matter induced constraints. Consciousness or that "black box" may not be tethered to matter, but existence (in this life anyway) is embedded in tangible substances like matter. We need to eat, drink and replenish to exist in this life. Consciousness however may be a state of existence not just limited by an earthly form.

Thank you for pointing out this distinction Bella.

[veritas]

There are so-called measurable forms of consciousness like in attention studies, but I don't think it captures the essence of consciousness because if cleaves out the process of bodily systems. I really think technology should be utilised to capture whole system processes. How is the body behaving during attention ? Any remarkable discrepancies between EKG and ECG ? What are the physiological discrepancies associated with attention? I think it really needs to boil down to the most microscopic level- DNA reactions (do we even have the technology to measure that? probably not. Does it even end with DNA? Probably not. I bet there are nano reactions we've yet to quantify) to have a clearer understanding of existence and the future.

[Bella]

I apologise for the confusion. I guess I should elaborate more. I don't mean cartesian dualism- mind body causal phenomena. I was thinking more process philosophy. The paramaters of existence embedded in history, self reflection, prescriptive- science/technology/observation exercised by way of procedures, habits, practice etc. We give so much emphasis in extrapolating and dissecting the design or framework of existence when we perhaps should be shifting our attention to the process itself.

Say...what!!! Hehe...Veritas, if we are to communicate, we should probably avoid Greek and just stick to simple concepts I can wrap my brain around, lol!

In this sense, consider that the mind is a product defined by matter- or limited by matter induced constraints. Consciousness or that "black box" may not be tethered to matter, but existence (in this life anyway) is embedded in tangible substances like matter. We need to eat, drink and replenish to exist in this life. Consciousness however may be a state of existence not just limited by an earthly form.

This is much better, thank you!

Veri, I think in our core, "who we are" is that "thing" in us, that notices/witnesses, not the stuff noticed, not even our mental concept of who we think we are which we see mentally as objects, meaning the self-concept is not the same as the one that "looks" at it or notices it. We are the looker, though we think we are the thing we look at in our minds when we try to think of ourselves, lol! Which means I am of the latter, underlined view, in your statement I believe mind/consciousness is limited by matter, not a product of matter. Hey very, what do you think of the studies done on victims of cardiac arrest who claim they have experienced a near-death-experience? I was reading about this a month ago, and I thought some of the veridical evidence noted by the researchers/doctors was quite interesting! I will find them and post here.

Thanks for the topic, by the way, very interesting!

[veritas]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess what you're saying is perhaps a higher "thing" inside us determines our perception of the world. I could flip around and say, what you say could just be a denial of one's ego or superego. Sometimes people resort to saying "the devil made me do it" so to dissociate from different facets of their self or personalities.

When people die their brains are still alive for a while. That's why after a heart attack there is no time limit on resuscitating a patient. Near death experiences coincide with physiological reactions, like oxygen starvation in the brain causing "white tunnel" syndromes. To make sense of trauma in the way of denial mechanisms it gets fantasized into elaborate heaven/hell fantasies. I think the end is much more complicated and embedded in a larger narrative of existence.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess what you're saying is perhaps a higher "thing" inside us determines our perception of the world. I could flip around and say, what you say could just be a denial of one's ego or superego. Sometimes people resort to saying "the devil made me do it" so to dissociate from different facets of their self or personalities.

When people die their brains are still alive for a while. That's why after a heart attack there is no time limit on resuscitating a patient. Near death experiences coincide with physiological reactions, like oxygen starvation in the brain causing "white tunnel" syndromes. To make sense of trauma in the way of denial mechanisms it gets fantasized into elaborate heaven/hell fantasies. I think the end is much more complicated and embedded in a larger narrative of existence.

I also think near death experiences are explicable by the trauma to the brain.  To me, consciousness, our idea who we are, id, essence(or any other description of our mental activities) is in our neurons.  In their wiring.  It is a program, that dies when the power is switched off.  It vanishes when the connections can no longer be sustained. 

I think the key is the way our neurons are wired.  Even though individually at cellular level they may not last weeks, the wiring remains intact and we continue to be ourselves.  That way, one could argue we outlive our material constructs.  But that is because the relevant construct remains intact in the wiring.

The story about the transplant recipients and donor lifestyles is interesting.  I imagine the transformation would be more dramatic in the event that I receive vooke's amygdala.

[Bella]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess what you're saying is perhaps a higher "thing" inside us determines our perception of the world. I could flip around and say, what you say could just be a denial of one's ego or superego. Sometimes people resort to saying "the devil made me do it" so to dissociate from different facets of their self or personalities.

When people die their brains are still alive for a while. That's why after a heart attack there is no time limit on resuscitating a patient. Near death experiences coincide with physiological reactions, like oxygen starvation in the brain causing "white tunnel" syndromes. To make sense of trauma in the way of denial mechanisms it gets fantasized into elaborate heaven/hell fantasies. I think the end is much more complicated and embedded in a larger narrative of existence.

Veritas, how do you see the veridical paranormal perception, though? The stuff described suggests to me that some people don't need their bodies awake in order to "see", sometimes. Especially the ones about biologically blind people and such.

[MOON Ki]

Terminator:

Did you go to the University of Chicago or have any connections with it?   Quite a few years ago, PBS (Bill Moyers) used to have a series on such "deep and meaningful" issues.   Through that I discovered Leon Kass from your neck of the woods.    Go listen to him if you ever get a chance---a truly deep & original thinker, with genuine humanity humanness.     

Anyways ... one of the questions I have heard him talk on relates to your idea that we all just a bunch of wired neurons and disappear when the power is turned off.    He has some interesting thoughts on things like the "soul" and what happens "afterwards", questions that he says he started dealing with when his father died.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Terminator:

Did you go to the University of Chicago or have any connections with it?   Quite a few years ago, PBS (Bill Moyers) used to have a series on such "deep and meaningful" issues.   Through that I discovered Leon Kass from your neck of the woods.    Go listen to him if you ever get a chance---a truly deep & original thinker, with genuine humanity humanness.     

Anyways ... one of the questions I have heard him talk on relates to your idea that we all just a bunch of wired neurons and disappear when the power is turned off.    He has some interesting thoughts on things like the "soul" and what happens "afterwards", questions that he says he started dealing with when his father died.

I know a person or two there.  I don't know about this guy.  I'll look out for him.  Seems he was leader on George W's ethics commission or something like that.

[veritas]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess what you're saying is perhaps a higher "thing" inside us determines our perception of the world. I could flip around and say, what you say could just be a denial of one's ego or superego. Sometimes people resort to saying "the devil made me do it" so to dissociate from different facets of their self or personalities.

When people die their brains are still alive for a while. That's why after a heart attack there is no time limit on resuscitating a patient. Near death experiences coincide with physiological reactions, like oxygen starvation in the brain causing "white tunnel" syndromes. To make sense of trauma in the way of denial mechanisms it gets fantasized into elaborate heaven/hell fantasies. I think the end is much more complicated and embedded in a larger narrative of existence.

I also think near death experiences are explicable by the trauma to the brain.  To me, consciousness, our idea who we are, id, essence(or any other description of our mental activities) is in our neurons.  In their wiring.  It is a program, that dies when the power is switched off.  It vanishes when the connections can no longer be sustained. 

I think the key is the way our neurons are wired.  Even though individually at cellular level they may not last weeks, the wiring remains intact and we continue to be ourselves.  That way, one could argue we outlive our material constructs.  But that is because the relevant construct remains intact in the wiring.

The story about the transplant recipients and donor lifestyles is interesting.  I imagine the transformation would be more dramatic in the event that I receive vooke's amygdala.

In that sense one could argue our immortal constructs are tethered to something whole, something we can't make sense of when constrained by material constructs. Maybe this is the "higher" Bella asserts. I do think however, anything higher can't be mentally boxed. It perhaps presents features, but as individuals we don't have the tools, not even history and evolution is enough to make sense of it. Why do we think we can make sense of it now? I think of humanity as a fabric of time. As we deteriorate and go instinct with the advent of genocides, disasters, mass culling etc. we intermittently cross over temporal markers. Essentially time becomes more malleable.

[MOON Ki]

In that sense one could argue our immortal constructs are tethered to something whole, something we can't make sense of when constrained by material constructs. Maybe this is the "higher" Bella asserts. I do think however, anything higher can't be mentally boxed. It perhaps presents features, but as individuals we don't have the tools, not even history and evolution is enough to make sense of it. Why do we think we can make sense of it now? I think of humanity as a fabric of time. As we deteriorate and go instinct with the advent of genocides, disasters, mass culling etc. we intermittently cross over temporal markers. Essentially time becomes more malleable.

I don't think "Terminator" believes in anything like "immortal construct".   I suspect that his views are that once the worms are done with their feasting, or the six ounces have been pulled out of the furnace and placed in a cereal-bowl, that's it.   

Anyways ... I do think that there are things about us that cross "time-zones" (as in zillions of evolutionary years), planetary zones, .... , and a whole bunch of other types of zones that we don't even dream of.   This something, which survives the "switching off of power", is what some people refer to as the "soul", or "spirit", or whatever.