Vooke who will help Njue now?

[Nuff Sed]

Kadame I stepped on your toes? Njue mightbe exhibiting blatant tribalism but it is also true that his dilemma comes from his church. Are you disputing that the system mixes up state, church and mammon?

http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21606897-shake-up-catholic-finances-managing-mammon

[kadame]

Kadame I stepped on your toes? Njue mightbe exhibiting blatant tribalism but it is also true that his dilemma comes from his church. Are you disputing that the system mixes up state, church and mammon?

http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21606897-shake-up-catholic-finances-managing-mammon

Please stop this rubbish. Ati his dilema...Where was that dilemma when Cardinal Otunga was Archbishop of Nairobi, or Ndingi, or any of the other Bishops? Did you just discover this "insight" between tribalism and the church yesterday? What has that article you cited about a financial scandal in Rome got to do with Njue's okuyuism back home in Nairobi? If you just wanted to start a catholic bashing thread, si you could've just done so, honestly and clearly, instead of this pretence at stringing together an imaginary link between the bigotism of one character and the church. You are a very strange character.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Njue single-handedly put to sleep the moral authority of the Catholic church in the public affairs of Kenya.  There was a time the when the Catholic church spoke, Kenyans listened.  But all that changed under Njue when he tried to make it the PNU mouthpiece.

[kadame]

Pope Benedict made a mistake, honestly and with due respect. He should've given Archbishop Ndingi the honor.

[Omollo]

Njue single-handedly put to sleep the moral authority of the Catholic church in the public affairs of Kenya.  There was a time the when the Catholic church spoke, Kenyans listened.  But all that changed under Njue when he tried to make it the PNU mouthpiece.

Njue lost me the day he went on live TV to apply pressure on Kivuitu to "release the [disputed] results". When faced with a similar situation in 1986, Cardinal Sin (of the Philippines) took an opposite stand. He demanded a thorough investigation before any results were issued. Njue knew Kibaki had "won" based on the disputed results and any publication would grant him an advantage and thus lead to reprisals from the other side.

He trashed all that and went ahead to support Kibaki. I had for a long time thought his support was based on the fact that Kibaki is a catholic. Later I came to establish that the man is a tribalist first and a catholic fifth, after a Thief, Lecher and chain smoking fraudster. I do not think the Catholic Church especially under the current pope would approve of his activities.

[kadame]

Moreover, when they were telling people that the church is against majimbo, it was a misrepresentation. The church's social doctrine is basically devolution. Some people call it "distributism" because it's basically that whatever can be done at the lowest level of authority, closest to the ground, should be done at that level and not taken to the higher levels unnecessarily. Isn't that devolution? Several Popes have written encyclicals about it. So if the church were going to take a position on the matter, (It did not, either in 2007 or this time), the pro-devolution side would've been far closer to church teaching than the pro-centralization crowd. Yet Cardinal seemed to have opposite views and then presented them as the church's views, that seemed very strange to me.

[Omollo]

Moreover, when they were telling people that the church is against majimbo, it was a misrepresentation. The church's social doctrine is basically devolution. Some people call it "distributism" because it's basically that whatever can be done at the lowest level of authority, closest to the ground, should be done at that level and not taken to the higher levels unnecessarily. Isn't that devolution? Several Popes have written encyclicals about it. So if the church were going to take a position on the matter, (It did not, either in 2007 or this time), the pro-devolution side would've been far closer to church teaching than the pro-centralization crowd. Yet Cardinal seemed to have opposite views and then presented them as the church's views, that seemed very strange to me.

Kababe

Devolution is just the expansion of democracy. Let's put it differently: Devolution cannot possibly exist in a dictatorship. The two (dictatorship and Devolution) are mutually exclusive. Thus if you are seeking to be a dictator, you would need to grab all the power and centralize it un to yourself in order to be a proper dictator. Let's put it slightly differently: Devolution takes power from the centre and as long as that power is so dispersed the centre is weaker while the devolved units get stronger.

If you examine the History of Constitutional Mutilation in Kenya, you will notice that Kenyatta starts off as a regular first among equals PM but slowly accumulates powers far beyond what the original constitution had conferred to his office. By the time of his death, Kenyatta had become a regular dictator.

There is a story overlooked in all this: The History of the Death of Devolution (Majimbo) is the flip side of the History of the Accumulation of Power by Kenyatta. As a lawyer, examine the amendments to the constitution to either kill devolution or empower Kenyatta. Its the opposite side of the same coin. Amendments effectively transferred power from Majimbos back to the center. In other words for Kenyatta to accumulate power he had to get it from somewhere as power cannot exist in a vacuum. That power was found dispersed to the Majimbos and from there Kenyatta through an increasing number  of amendments to the katiba reclaimed the power. Thus devolution can only succeed by restoring that power back to the regions and taking it away from the center.

Njue's position means he is against greater democracy for his flock. I doubt that the Catholic Church in the Vatican or the ordinary member holds that view. Devolution is now and the future. Countries that fail to devolve power will suffer serious problems. Look at Scotland: Though they lost independence, they have won greater devolution.

[kadame]

Yes I agree. Take a look at this and you will understand my confusion regarding the Cardinal's stance on devolution in 2007:

Subsidiarity is a principle of social organization that originated in the Roman Catholic church, and was developed following the First Vatican Council. It has been associated by some with the idea of decentralisation. In its most basic formulation, it holds that social problems should be dealt with at the most immediate (or local) level consistent with their solution. The Oxford English Dictionary defines subsidiarity as the idea that a central authority should have a subsidiary (that is, a supporting, rather than a subordinate) function, performing only those tasks which cannot be performed effectively at a more immediate or local level. The concept is applicable in the fields of government, political science, neuropsychology, cybernetics, management and in military command (Mission Command). In political theory, the principle of subsidiarity is sometimes viewed as an aspect of the concept of federalism, although the two have no necessary connection. The principle of subsidiarity plays an important role in the political rhetoric of the European Union concerning the relationship between the EU governing bodies and the member states.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity

And this

Catholic social teaching

The principle of subsidiarity was developed by German theologian and aristocrat Oswald von Nell-Breuning.[2] His work influenced the social teaching of Pope Pius XI in Quadragesimo Anno and holds that government should undertake only those initiatives which exceed the capacity of individuals or private groups acting independently. Functions of government, business, and other secular activities should be as local as possible. If a complex function is carried out at a local level just as effectively as on the national level, the local level should be the one to carry out the specified function. The principle is based upon the autonomy and dignity of the human individual, and holds that all other forms of society, from the family to the state and the international order, should be in the service of the human person. Subsidiarity assumes that these human persons are by their nature social beings, and emphasizes the importance of small and intermediate-sized communities or institutions, like the family, the church, labor unions and other voluntary associations, as mediating structures which empower individual action and link the individual to society as a whole. "Positive subsidiarity", which is the ethical imperative for communal, institutional or governmental action to create the social conditions necessary to the full development of the individual, such as the right to work, decent housing, health care, etc., is another important aspect of the subsidiarity principle.

The principle of subsidiarity was first formally developed in the encyclical Rerum Novarum of 1891 by Pope Leo XIII, as an attempt to articulate a middle course between laissez-faire capitalism on the one hand and the various forms of communism, which subordinate the individual to the state, on the other. The principle was further developed in Pope Pius XI's encyclical Quadragesimo Anno of 1931, and Economic Justice for All by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

It is a fundamental principle of social philosophy, fixed and unchangeable, that one should not withdraw from individuals and commit to the community what they can accomplish by their own enterprise and industry. (Pope Pius XI, Quadragesimo Anno, 79)

Since its founding by Hilaire Belloc and Gilbert Keith Chesterton, Distributism, a third way economic philosophy based on Catholic Social teaching, upholds the importance of subsidiarity.

The Church's belief in subsidiarity is found in the programs of the Catholic Campaign for Human Development, where grassroots community organizing projects are supported to promote economic justice and end the cycle of poverty. These projects directly involve the people they serve in their leadership and decision-making.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity_(Catholicism)


Those are wiki articles for summaries' sake but the catholic teaching can be found here: http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/what_you_need_to_know/?id=84

Now if someone reads that, can you honestly say that the church, if she had a position, was for or against devolution?? Of course the church doesnt look at just one thing, but for this issue, for me it seems very clear that the church's teaching is firmly pro-devolution. So when Cardinal said that "We as the catholic Church are against..." That truly was confusing.

[Nuff Sed]

The Church's belief in subsidiarity is found in the programs of the Catholic Campaign for Human Development, where grassroots community organizing projects are supported to promote economic justice and end the cycle of poverty. These projects directly involve the people they serve in their leadership and decision-making.[3]

That subsidiarity is interesting indeed. That makes the church a friend of democracy. How does this principle apply when so much power is vested in the pope?

[kadame]

The Church's belief in subsidiarity is found in the programs of the Catholic Campaign for Human Development, where grassroots community organizing projects are supported to promote economic justice and end the cycle of poverty. These projects directly involve the people they serve in their leadership and decision-making.[3]

That subsidiarity is interesting indeed. That makes the church a friend of democracy. How does this principle apply when so much power is vested in the pope?

What great power is this, (vested in the Pope), nuff sed? I'm not asking as a challenge, just want to see where you are coming from when you assert all this knowledge about the workings of the Catholic Church.