Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob

[Kichwa]

Robina,  I have a lot of respect for people with different political opinions from mine.  However, I do not consider corruption, tribalism, incompetence, political marginalization, dictatorships, denying people their freedoms, etc as political opinions that I need to respect or accept.  I disagree with RV Pundit because he accepts tribalism as a reality and argues that we can have economic development and be corrupt at the same time. I do not think it is the same thing as having an ideological argument.  There are certain basic things that we have to agree on first and everything cannot be a matter of opinion.  We should all be against tribalism, corruption, dictatorship, impunity, incompetence and bad governance just to mention a few ground rules.

Government is about citizen wellbeing. This means in Sub Sahara where poverty is the principal concern, choice and therefore packaging of parties is rightly about development. The debate is what is the best approach to this? and of course there are many ways to slaughter the elephant. The "developers" mean to say the "reformers" are wrong because excess [public] freedom is disruptive to the economy. Liberals trumpet the freedom dividend.

There is no panacea to prosperity. The US gospel of liberal democracy has been turned on its head by the Asian Tigers and then especially China as the resurgent autocracy without oil. It's a paradigm shift. You saw Jubilee sending a "fact mission" to study the Communist Party without batting an eyelid. Why NASA didn't fuss? -China is a success story to the 3rd world. I see not just the opportunity in the China v West scenario but also the confusion it causes in us.

The conservatives / developers repulse you - Kichwa - because you're a reformer. I don't see your leaning as unfairly ethnic (Pundit's criticism of you). I am saying in many words when "they" beguile you so much... ask why and don't be righteous.

[Nefertiti]

Thanks for not declaring me wanted 

Obviously the rule of law is a basic foundation. My worry is you have conflated coservatism in Kenya with corruption, impunity, etc. which are just human vices. Integrity is character not ideology: they are not corrupt because they are conservative. Everytime the opposition or reform camp has chanced on power they indulged in malfeasance and largesse. That is why I sneer when people say corruption would end if Raila or NASA comes to power. He is reliably social liberal but not necessarily corrupt-free. Some loudmouths and  objectionists would have to lie low too including current cheerers. This would not derail the agenda.

About corruption. I don't think Pundit or anyone says it's good. It's a vice we all have to contend with along with tribalism. These vices will die naturally as we develop and evolve.

Robina,  I have a lot of respect for people with different political opinions from mine.  However, I do not consider corruption, tribalism, incompetence, political marginalization, dictatorships, denying people their freedoms, etc as political opinions that I need to respect or accept.  I disagree with RV Pundit because he accepts tribalism as a reality and argues that we can have economic development and be corrupt at the same time. I do not think it is the same thing as having an ideological argument.  There are certain basic things that we have to agree on first and everything cannot be a matter of opinion.  We should all be against tribalism, corruption, dictatorship, impunity, incompetence and bad governance just to mention a few ground rules.

[Kadame7]

Lol! What conservatism exists in Kenyan politics? Desire for power or more centralized power with fewer checks is NOT conservatism by any definition ever. There's no conservatism in Kenya.

[bryan275]

Lol! What conservatism exists in Kenyan politics? Desire for power or more centralized power with fewer checks is NOT conservatism by any definition ever. There's no conservatism in Kenya.

Extreme tribalism is some crude form of conservatism.

[Kadame7]

Lol! What conservatism exists in Kenyan politics? Desire for power or more centralized power with fewer checks is NOT conservatism by any definition ever. There's no conservatism in Kenya.

Extreme tribalism is some crude form of conservatism.

That's not conservatism. It's nationalism or far right politics. Ugly stuff. I know since Trump's weird relationship with ethno nationalists (white racists) this has come to be confused with conservatism but the two have no necessary relationship.

Conservatism is an ideology about the role of government in a person's life and the relationship between central government and local governments. Pro-devolutionism is a form of sensible conservatism, actually, fighting the role of the central govt where it's not necessary. Tea partiers take it to a whole other level: govt should NOT even help you to not die if it can be avoided. I've seen some real heartless arguments from deeply religious folks who are Tea-party form of conservative, and it can make your head spin. The most extreme conservatives ever.

To give you a good example to distinguish them, tea partiers like kina Ted Cruz are extreme conservatives. But they are not racists. More like people we think are incredibly heartless vis-a-vis the poor. It tends to get conflated with racism because a lot of poor are disproportionately non-white and of recent migrant heritage. But the core of it is rich and poor.

The thing people associated with Trump are accused of is far sinister. They have zero problems with the govt getting into all these social welfare stuff actually, as long as it's for white people. They are terrified that whites are becoming fewer and losing their power. They are not accused of conservatism. They are accused of straight-up open racism.

What is most unfortunate about American politics in my opinion, is that the two are more and more pushed together so that these days their politics is becoming more and more familiar to a Kenyan like me (more nationalist fights, less fights on proper governance philosphies), which is very sad.

[bryan275]

Lol! What conservatism exists in Kenyan politics? Desire for power or more centralized power with fewer checks is NOT conservatism by any definition ever. There's no conservatism in Kenya.

Extreme tribalism is some crude form of conservatism.

That's not conservatism. It's nationalism or far right politics. Ugly stuff. I know since Trump's weird relationship with ethno nationalists (white racists) this has come to be confused with conservatism but the two have no necessary relationship.

Conservatism is an ideology about the role of government in a person's life and the relationship between central government and local governments. Pro-devolutionism is a form of sensible conservatism, actually, fighting the role of the central govt where it's not necessary. Tea partiers take it to a whole other level: govt should NOT even help you to not die if it can be avoided. I've seen some real heartless arguments from deeply religious folks who are Tea-party form of conservative, and it can make your head spin. The most extreme conservatives ever.

To give you a good example to distinguish them, tea partiers like kina Ted Cruz are extreme conservatives. But they are not racists. More like people we think are incredibly heartless vis-a-vis the poor. It tends to get conflated with racism because a lot of poor are disproportionately non-white and of recent migrant heritage. But the core of it is rich and poor.

The thing people associated with Trump are accused of is far sinister. They have zero problems with the govt getting into all these social welfare stuff actually, as long as it's for white people. They are terrified that whites are becoming fewer and losing their power. They are not accused of conservatism. They are accused of straight-up open racism.

What is most unfortunate about American politics in my opinion, is that the two are more and more pushed together so that these days their politics is becoming more and more familiar to a Kenyan like me (more nationalist fights, less fights on proper governance philosphies), which is very sad.

I agree with you on Ted Cruz' type of conservatism, but submit that he's probably not (too) racist because of his ethnic heritage.  Brexit has it's roots in the same white supremacist foundations that Trumps supporters have and the fear they have of a perceived diminishing white race.  Where I live, there are very very few none white Englishmen and women, however the anti immigration campaign touched my neighbours etc.  They were all convinced that they were being overrun by immigrants. 

Getting back to Kenyan type of politics and it's influence on Brexit.  I noticed that the very tribalisitic Kenyans also tended to vote Brexit with the foundations of their decisions strangely rooted in a somewhat racist hatred for Eastern Europeans.  It was weird to witness.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Lol! What conservatism exists in Kenyan politics? Desire for power or more centralized power with fewer checks is NOT conservatism by any definition ever. There's no conservatism in Kenya.

Status quo is the closest one gets to conservatism.  They are conservative in the sense that they are opposed to fundamental change.  Not because they hold what are typically conservative values.

[vooke]

You can call it desperation and they can call it money coming in. Why does it bother you so much. Sometimes you make silly arguments just to say something.

Actually it is a very good idea to ask supporters to support the campaign as is common in mature democracies.  Supporters must be allowed to own the movement and the best way to feel part of a movement in this day and age is contribute towards its funding.  Politicians who are fighting on behalf of the people should not use their own monies even when they are rich.  NASA should continue urging wanaichi to chip in as little as 10/- so that they can be part of the movement.  The jubilee government is making sure that big international donors cannot fund NASA while Jubilee has unlimited access to state and stolen resources including monies being sent back into Kenya from stolen swiss accounts.  NASA does not need even half of what Jubilee will spend but it is better to get that money directly from the people of Kenya than jubilees stolen monies from the peoples of Kenya.

The morons have no funds and are now asking supporters to pay to support them

Correct.
But soliciting funds this late suggests desperation. They should have allowed or invited raia to fund them from after the primaries

Crowdfunding is a good idea, I pointed out the desperation behind this move. That hurts I know but hats your problem. I'd say the same if Jubilee resorted to soliciting pennies from raia days to the election

[Omollo]

Vooke

What makes you say NASA is desperate and that it's not seeking support for the reasons given and which you partially agree with before returning to the Uthamaki line?

NASA is running its campaign as we speak! Safaricom has practically frozen the funds being contributed citing various excuses. I doubt that that money if any will ever be given to NASA if Jubilee has any say.

This is a genius method to counter the give me kitu kidogo disease. NASA has cured that distemper by reversing the roles.

Jubilee can now pour money and our people are under clear instructions to consume as much of that money as possible. If given 500 they should now the messenger was given ten times what he handed over!

Next week you will see your first roasted chief complete with the ID cards he would have been buying. Chief Choma

[Kichwa]

I still cannot understand how asking wanaichi to contribute towards a campaign can be vilified in a democracy? It defies logic.

Vooke

What makes you say NASA is desperate and that it's not seeking support for the reasons given and which you partially agree with before returning to the Uthamaki line?

NASA is running its campaign as we speak! Safaricom has practically frozen the funds being contributed citing various excuses. I doubt that that money if any will ever be given to NASA if Jubilee has any say.

This is a genius method to counter the give me kitu kidogo disease. NASA has cured that distemper by reversing the roles.

Jubilee can now pour money and our people are under clear instructions to consume as much of that money as possible. If given 500 they should now the messenger was given ten times what he handed over!

Next week you will see your first roasted chief complete with the ID cards he would have been buying. Chief Choma

[Kadame7]

Lol! What conservatism exists in Kenyan politics? Desire for power or more centralized power with fewer checks is NOT conservatism by any definition ever. There's no conservatism in Kenya.

Status quo is the closest one gets to conservatism.  They are conservative in the sense that they are opposed to fundamental change.  Not because they hold what are typically conservative values.

Termi, even this is not conservatism. They only oppose change NOW while they wield power, not as a matter of principle. And they are all pro changes that will give them more power. Michuki said it very well,

"We wanted a new constitution because others were in power, now that we are in power, its not really necessary"

So there's nothing about opposing change per se, it's all about power and advantages to a certain lot. When they are out of power, they will support all changes that distributes power and equalizes things in their favour. When they hold it, it becomes pro status quo. There are no consistent principles to speak of except what favours a certain very limited lot. It's all situational conservatism and liberalism depending on how it favours the interests of about 200 human beings, not even a whole class of people. It's all very personalized politics, not that far removed from an ancient monarchy where the whims of an individual or a very tiny court of individuals determined direction.

[vooke]

Vooke

What makes you say NASA is desperate and that it's not seeking support for the reasons given and which you partially agree with before returning to the Uthamaki line?

NASA is running its campaign as we speak! Safaricom has practically frozen the funds being contributed citing various excuses. I doubt that that money if any will ever be given to NASA if Jubilee has any say.

This is a genius method to counter the give me kitu kidogo disease. NASA has cured that distemper by reversing the roles.

Jubilee can now pour money and our people are under clear instructions to consume as much of that money as possible. If given 500 they should now the messenger was given ten times what he handed over!

Next week you will see your first roasted chief complete with the ID cards he would have been buying. Chief Choma

Omorlo,
You damn well know it is. They had since April primaries to sell this idea. Why now and not before?  They certainly had no need  a of raia funds right up to nane nane. They simply snubbed raia and stuck with dinners. Only time they went traia was with adopt-a-station drive.

I'm told the paybill number has been around for months. NASWA Im inclined to believe were inspired by Boniface Mwangi.

I Wish them luck.

[Kichwa]

Maybe they were inspired by what's been happening in the West for years.  This is not a new idea.  NASA does not have the gazzillions of money that the Kenyattaa family and friends have.  I do not therefore understand the utoto about all this.

Vooke

What makes you say NASA is desperate and that it's not seeking support for the reasons given and which you partially agree with before returning to the Uthamaki line?

NASA is running its campaign as we speak! Safaricom has practically frozen the funds being contributed citing various excuses. I doubt that that money if any will ever be given to NASA if Jubilee has any say.

This is a genius method to counter the give me kitu kidogo disease. NASA has cured that distemper by reversing the roles.

Jubilee can now pour money and our people are under clear instructions to consume as much of that money as possible. If given 500 they should now the messenger was given ten times what he handed over!

Next week you will see your first roasted chief complete with the ID cards he would have been buying. Chief Choma

Omorlo,
You damn well know it is. They had since April primaries to sell this idea. Why now and not before?  They certainly had no need  a of raia funds right up to nane nane. They simply snubbed raia and stuck with dinners. Only time they went traia was with adopt-a-station drive.

I'm told the paybill number has been around for months. NASWA Im inclined to believe were inspired by Boniface Mwangi.

I Wish them luck.