NASA in Bomet

[RV Pundit]

Federalism is the way to go but gradually - counites need to build capacity before they are given more power - for instance health sector is struggling really badly - and yet it could be source of revenue for counties. KRA should continue collecting all taxes - but we can start tagging where taxes are coming from - outright I would say of 15B usd we collect - majority of it is PAYE - this mainly GOK staff (700,000) -and private sector (2M) - then you have customs (collected mainly from Mombasa port) - then VAT (which actually contribute to 60% of the tax).

I think it's going to be hard to split most of the taxes to counties - what will work is to slowly allow counties to keep portion of taxes - like % of PAYE of employees in that county - otherwise stuff like tax on fuel or alcohol is best administered nationally.

I don't know who advocated for what and the specifics, its irrelevant now. I don't understand why you're obsessed with what central will get, if central doesn't consume or produce anything it will get small amounts of funds as it should. Clearly the growth areas going forward will be around urban areas, your assumption seems to b that those urban areas will only be inhabited by the locals. Consumption taxes are very good indicator on economic activity of a region this should be devolved. There's what is equalization fund that goes to least developed counties.
BTW its just a matter of time before population growth of other region start slowing down, world over people get fewer kids as they get wealthier or basic things like child mortality are eliminated. The question should be what's important Nominal GDP or per capital GDP? Clearly the latter.

[Omollo]

First it is you who said: We aren't against devolution actually we'd like 50% to be devolved but we dont want the current formula?

I found the statement somewhat confusing if not self contradictory. But the most urgent at the time was the question of what you meant by "we". Since you have previously named yourself a spokesman for "Kikuyus", I got my answer quite fast as you no0 doubt will appreciate!

I note your protests below including this one: I don't understand why you're obsessed with what central will get, . Until now I thought you were talking about revenue sharing. I assumed you wrote the following:

...we don't want the current formula? I know for a fact when jubilee wins they'll change the formula of sharing funds to more federalism.

I assume Central will be included in that new formula. So how does responding to that become an obsession?

I will assume you got too sensitive when confronted with the fact that whatever you are suggesting has been proposed before for the same motives and when it was offered, the same people who wanted it did not like it at all and changed tactics.

Now let's go to "federalism" which you have caught on. Please assume I am a total idiot from Mwambao village and explain to me:
1. How it works
2. How it differs from the current County Based Devolution
3. Its advantages

Better still since I can still use my faculties, direct me to "a case study". Where has this functioned. In fact if you just name a country, I would be on way.

Some questions I need you to consider when responding:

4. Does it in any way grant more powers to the Federal Units?
5. Is the power for self determination for the units envisaged?

I don't know who advocated for what and the specifics, its irrelevant now. I don't understand why you're obsessed with what central will get, if central doesn't consume or produce anything it will get small amounts of funds as it should. Clearly the growth areas going forward will be around urban areas, your assumption seems to b that those urban areas will only be inhabited by the locals. Consumption taxes are very good indicator on economic activity of a region this should be devolved. There's what is equalization fund that goes to least developed counties.
BTW its just a matter of time before population growth of other region start slowing down, world over people get fewer kids as they get wealthier or basic things like child mortality are eliminated. The question should be what's important Nominal GDP or per capital GDP? Clearly the latter.

[hk]

Federalism is the way to go but gradually - counites need to build capacity before they are given more power - for instance health sector is struggling really badly - and yet it could be source of revenue for counties. KRA should continue collecting all taxes - but we can start tagging where taxes are coming from - outright I would say of 15B usd we collect - majority of it is PAYE - this mainly GOK staff (700,000) -and private sector (2M) - then you have customs (collected mainly from Mombasa port) - then VAT (which actually contribute to 60% of the tax).

I think it's going to be hard to split most of the taxes to counties - what will work is to slowly allow counties to keep portion of taxes - like % of PAYE of employees in that county - otherwise stuff like tax on fuel or alcohol is best administered nationally.

I agree it should be gradual as counties get capacity. Companies can easily add location where they charge VAT on their ETRs. Also on fuel and alcohol companies just need to disclose where they have sold those products and from there calculations would be easy. However PAYE would be probably the easiest to determine from what county its derived from.

[Omollo]

Kindly define what you mean by "federalism" before we end up discussing something we do not know.

Federalism is the way to go but gradually - counites need to build capacity before they are given more power - for instance health sector is struggling really badly - and yet it could be source of revenue for counties. KRA should continue collecting all taxes - but we can start tagging where taxes are coming from - outright I would say of 15B usd we collect - majority of it is PAYE - this mainly GOK staff (700,000) -and private sector (2M) - then you have customs (collected mainly from Mombasa port) - then VAT (which actually contribute to 60% of the tax).

I think it's going to be hard to split most of the taxes to counties - what will work is to slowly allow counties to keep portion of taxes - like % of PAYE of employees in that county - otherwise stuff like tax on fuel or alcohol is best administered nationally.

I agree it should be gradual as counties get capacity. Companies can easily add location where they charge VAT on their ETRs. Also on fuel and alcohol companies just need to disclose where they have sold those products and from there calculations would be easy. However PAYE would be probably the easiest to determine from what county its derived from.

[RV Pundit]

Let call it deeper devolution - turning counties to states that can hire policemen and levy taxes. Obviously you're interested in the ability to secede..Luo Nyanza can secede any day if that makes you happy,

Kindly define what you mean by "federalism" before we end up discussing something we do not know.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Let call it deeper devolution - turning counties to states that can hire policemen and levy taxes. Obviously you're interested in the ability to secede..Luo Nyanza can secede any day if that makes you happy,

Kindly define what you mean by "federalism" before we end up discussing something we do not know.

I see it as more than just that.  The units can also make their own laws.  You might have Kiambu implement harsher punishments for drunken debauchery, while Siaya might have stronger laws that protect women from wife inheritance for instance.

[Kichwa]

Windy, that is a very bad example.  I wish you talked about stronger Siaya County laws to protecting women and children from domestic violence than advancing the  tribal political stereotype of luo's and wife inheritance.

Let call it deeper devolution - turning counties to states that can hire policemen and levy taxes. Obviously you're interested in the ability to secede..Luo Nyanza can secede any day if that makes you happy,

Kindly define what you mean by "federalism" before we end up discussing something we do not know.

I see it as more than just that.  The units can also make their own laws.  You might have Kiambu implement harsher punishments for drunken debauchery, while Siaya might have stronger laws that protect women from wife inheritance for instance.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Windy, that is a very bad example.  I wish you talked about stronger Siaya County laws to protecting women and children from domestic violence than advancing the  tribal political stereotype of luo's and wife inheritance.

Let call it deeper devolution - turning counties to states that can hire policemen and levy taxes. Obviously you're interested in the ability to secede..Luo Nyanza can secede any day if that makes you happy,

Kindly define what you mean by "federalism" before we end up discussing something we do not know.

I see it as more than just that.  The units can also make their own laws.  You might have Kiambu implement harsher punishments for drunken debauchery, while Siaya might have stronger laws that protect women from wife inheritance for instance.

That wasn't the intention.  If that is how it came out, my apologies.  It was also not my intention to suggest that Kikuyus are drunkards.

[Omollo]

Pundit

At this rate secession might be the best option. When elections are rigged and funds taken from some and given to others on an entitlement basis, there are few options.

Long before oil was discovered in Turkana I was over there to do a program audit along with a westerner seeking to improve his CV for a better State Dept career. He looked at the soil and without a doubt said there is oil in this area.

We later ended up in your home area to visit the expansive Mogogosiek Tea Factory and he said the same. I am sure you'll eventually face the same issues the Turkana are grappling with.

What if the National government decides to take most of the loot and leave behind pollution, disease and poverty? Remember oil ruins agriculture!

For now I am for a unitary democratic state. But I want the same federalism as per the first constitution

[RV Pundit]

I say we take it slowly - we are somewhere - people who are minorities in those states or counties have genuine fears - and also we cannot load counties that can't even handle health - with more responsibilities without building their capacity - we are mere 50 yrs - take it slowly.

Windy City - County assemblies can make laws now - there is small issue of AG refusing to gazette those laws.

Pundit

At this rate secession might be the best option. When elections are rigged and funds taken from some and given to others on an entitlement basis, there are few options.

Long before oil was discovered in Turkana I was over there to do a program audit along with a westerner seeking to improve his CV for a better State Dept career. He looked at the soil and without a doubt said there is oil in this area.

We later ended up in your home area to visit the expansive Mogogosiek Tea Factory and he said the same. I am sure you'll eventually face the same issues the Turkana are grappling with.

What if the National government decides to take most of the loot and leave behind pollution, disease and poverty? Remember oil ruins agriculture!

For now I am for a unitary democratic state. But I want the same federalism as per the first constitution

[Kichwa]

We need a national government that is pro-devolution and you will see how quickly devolution will take root.  Obamacare was working fine until a government that does not believe in it came to power and are now dismantling it.  Devolution is being undermined by ouruto and that is why the teething problems are being used to undermine it further instead of finding viable solutions.

I say we take it slowly - we are somewhere - people who are minorities in those states or counties have genuine fears - and also we cannot load counties that can't even handle health - with more responsibilities without building their capacity - we are mere 50 yrs - take it slowly.

Windy City - County assemblies can make laws now - there is small issue of AG refusing to gazette those laws.

Pundit

At this rate secession might be the best option. When elections are rigged and funds taken from some and given to others on an entitlement basis, there are few options.

Long before oil was discovered in Turkana I was over there to do a program audit along with a westerner seeking to improve his CV for a better State Dept career. He looked at the soil and without a doubt said there is oil in this area.

We later ended up in your home area to visit the expansive Mogogosiek Tea Factory and he said the same. I am sure you'll eventually face the same issues the Turkana are grappling with.

What if the National government decides to take most of the loot and leave behind pollution, disease and poverty? Remember oil ruins agriculture!

For now I am for a unitary democratic state. But I want the same federalism as per the first constitution

[Omollo]

This illustrates the topsyturvy nature of Pundit and his side kick - HK.

1. They advocate for federalism which by all descriptions means Devolution Plus. Never mind that my specific questions to determine how much PLUS was ignored by HK but with indirect responses by Pundit, I got a rough idea of what they meant.
2. Remember I told HK that whatever system he prefers he would soon find it is not addressing his needs and will turn against it and that this had been done before with predictable results. He insisted on federalism.

Now we have Pundit repeating the same Ruto-Uhuru subterfuge about capacity.

[RV Pundit]

We are all pro-devolution/federalism. Which is a great thing- we differ on the speed/shape of it.. I think HK want counties to work their .arse off and compete for investors/grow the pie - rather than just waiting to receive money based on population. If we don't change the law - we will soon become Nigerian - where everyone inflate their population figures - because all the money comes from Oil and it's shared based on pop size. Turkana and Mandera did this and got away with it. The next census better be on biometrics..otherwise counties will be interested in inflating their pop size so they can get more money.

Most pple who are complaining about devolution right now are those that have done so little with money they got. Governors who performed like Dr Mutua or Wairia or etc have manage to do alot.
All you read from NASA (who control Kisumu/Nairobi/Mombasa - which are now garbage cities) and Isaac is desperate attempt to pass the blame to National GOK - instead of explaining how they spend all the billions.National GoK is not in charge of budget. It's the parliament. No one CORD member of parliament is on record for wanting more money budgeted for counties. This is becauee parliament have delicate duty to balance the country need.

This illustrates the topsyturvy nature of Pundit and his side kick - HK.

1. They advocate for federalism which by all descriptions means Devolution Plus. Never mind that my specific questions to determine how much PLUS was ignored by HK but with indirect responses by Pundit, I got a rough idea of what they meant.
2. Remember I told HK that whatever system he prefers he would soon find it is not addressing his needs and will turn against it and that this had been done before with predictable results. He insisted on federalism.

Now we have Pundit repeating the same Ruto-Uhuru subterfuge about capacity.

[Omollo]

There is one small detail you FORGOT while bashing NASA. NASA also CONTROLS Machakos! So if it has succeeded despite having an indicted thief as governor, I thank the NASA MCAs who have steered clear of Jubilee bribery.

Nobody has stopped Uhuru from insisting of proper BVR use for Birth Certificates, ID cards, Criminal Fingerprinting, Voter registration etc. It is Jubilee that has frustrated all efforts mae by the NARA government to bring the use of modern technology to solve these problems.

It is only recently that most Kenyans discovered the duplicity and hypocrisy of the Uhuru-Ruto Kleptocracy where they basically say one thing and do the exact opposite. They then accuse anybody who points out their duplicity of frustrating the very thing they sabotaged. We have seen them go to parliament to provide for manual voting and when CORD opposed, they accused it of planning to hack the system and declare Raila the winner.

We saw them sabotage the BVR and claim Kikuyus have no fingerprints because they work too hard (Kembi Gitura before he was rigged out)

I want to bet you anything that Uhuru would never agree to a BVR use in the census because it would reveal a badly kept secret - Kikuyu figures were first inflated in 1968 and Luo figures suppressed in 1999. Just like the example you cite of Nigeria where different groups are against a proper census and anything that would properly state the exact size of the population, Jubilee has an interest in hiding the truth.

I disagree that Turkana or Mandera cheated in population. The courts ruled against those claims against NEP. If you can accept the Supreme Court ruling against CORD and keep waving it over our heads, kindly accept that of the High court as well!

Do you have any proof of corruption or abuse of money against anybody that you can post or is this part of your new persona of oozing lies?

How did you want CORD MPs to ask for more money outside the established procedure? This rhetorical propaganda has to come to an end next month when Uhuru goes home.

By and large most MPs have opposed the sharing formula but Jubilee voting machines have then gone ahead and approved anything they are so ordered by Uhuru.

We are all pro-devolution/federalism. Which is a great thing- we differ on the speed/shape of it.. I think HK want counties to work their .arse off and compete for investors/grow the pie - rather than just waiting to receive money based on population. If we don't change the law - we will soon become Nigerian - where everyone inflate their population figures - because all the money comes from Oil and it's shared based on pop size. Turkana and Mandera did this and got away with it. The next census better be on biometrics..otherwise counties will be interested in inflating their pop size so they can get more money.

Most pple who are complaining about devolution right now are those that have done so little with money they got. Governors who performed like Dr Mutua or Wairia or etc have manage to do alot.

All you read from NASA (who control Kisumu/Nairobi/Mombasa - which are now garbage cities) and Isaac is desperate attempt to pass the blame to National GOK - instead of explaining how they spend all the billions.National GoK is not in charge of budget. It's the parliament. No one CORD member of parliament is on record for wanting more money budgeted for counties. This is becauee parliament have delicate duty to balance the country need.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

The current electoral boundaries are well balanced - population, size, development. That is how RV and NEP got more MPs, while Nairobi can be said to be shortchanged, it's not. The current revenue formula is ok too, applying mostly the boundary formula not just population.

I missed this.  This forum is best for a certain speed.  I admit I don't have the details of how this should be divvied up.  I also think Omollo is right, the census should be the basis. 

I just want to point out that looking at it on the basis of registered voters, an argument could be made for certain areas votes counting more than others in terms of parliamentary representation.  And a few of those areas that are shafted are in Central.  To some extent, the number of registered voters is going to correlate to census numbers.

[Omollo]

Termie

Registered voters has nothing to do with Electoral Boundaries.

Pay attention to the formula used. Urban centres have more people per constituency. I support that because if one pursues equality, all decisions will favor urbanites at the expense of the rural areas. I even think the current system must be changed to PR.

For starters we can have a finite number assigned a county based on its total population. The county would then be the single constituency which elects the MPs assigned.

As we learn the system better, the entire country should become a single constituency. Seats will be assigned based on the votes received by each party. That way there will be no winners or losers.

The current electoral boundaries are well balanced - population, size, development. That is how RV and NEP got more MPs, while Nairobi can be said to be shortchanged, it's not. The current revenue formula is ok too, applying mostly the boundary formula not just population.

I missed this.  This forum is best for a certain speed.  I admit I don't have the details of how this should be divvied up.  I also think Omollo is right, the census should be the basis. 

I just want to point out that looking at it on the basis of registered voters, an argument could be made for certain areas votes counting more than others in terms of parliamentary representation.  And a few of those areas that are shafted are in Central.  To some extent, the number of registered voters is going to correlate to census numbers.

[RV Pundit]

No need to rack our brains. CAR (Allocation commission)- which is standing independent commission - should continuously find the best & most equitable method to share funds - based on many factors.
IEBC - whose other name is BOUNDARIES - will review boundaries every 10yrs I think - possibly after census - so 2020.
 

Termie

Registered voters has nothing to do with Electoral Boundaries.

Pay attention to the formula used. Urban centres have more people per constituency. I support that because if one pursues equality, all decisions will favor urbanites at the expense of the rural areas. I even think the current system must be changed to PR.

For starters we can have a finite number assigned a county based on its total population. The county would then be the single constituency which elects the MPs assigned.

As we learn the system better, the entire country should become a single constituency. Seats will be assigned based on the votes received by each party. That way there will be no winners or losers.

The current electoral boundaries are well balanced - population, size, development. That is how RV and NEP got more MPs, while Nairobi can be said to be shortchanged, it's not. The current revenue formula is ok too, applying mostly the boundary formula not just population.

I missed this.  This forum is best for a certain speed.  I admit I don't have the details of how this should be divvied up.  I also think Omollo is right, the census should be the basis. 

I just want to point out that looking at it on the basis of registered voters, an argument could be made for certain areas votes counting more than others in terms of parliamentary representation.  And a few of those areas that are shafted are in Central.  To some extent, the number of registered voters is going to correlate to census numbers.

[Omollo]

Pundit is coming apart slowly. Here he misses the issues under debate and as it has become normal with him throws in a few lies just to show he is still alive.

It is not hard to pick out the enemies of devolution regardless of where they hide. That a man like Pundit is unaware of the hardships that Jubilee MPs have caused over this man can only be seen in the light of his sharing their views and prejudices:

No need to rack our brains. CAR (Allocation commission)- which is standing independent commission - should continuously find the best & most equitable method to share funds - based on many factors.
IEBC - whose other name is BOUNDARIES - will review boundaries every 10yrs I think - possibly after census - so 2020.