How powerful is Jimmy Wanjigi?

[MOON Ki]

There is nothing to debate about this. Already the developed world accept their moral obligation by donating AID to us and lecturing us about ABCD. They do not have to donate their money to feed or clothe us..but they do it anyway.

That is just an assumption that itself may be debated; indeed, you will find volumes written by some who claim that there are insidious motives behind the "aid".      In general, it should not be necessarily assumed that the donation of money, food, clothes, or whatever---at any level--is necessarily out of a sense of moral obligation.   An example is the deaths in the endless deaths in the Mediterranean Sea and other desperate forms of illegal immigration: there are those who argue that European countries should do more to help African countries.   Why?   So that they don't have poor Africans crowding their "nice" cities.

In any case, even if we were to accept that some have a sense of "moral obligation" in such matters, on what basis should is it to be assumed that such is without limit?   As it is, you will find citizens of those rich countries increasingly complaining that their money is being "wasted".

At the root of my comments is need for African countries to end this idea that they can mess up as they like, but they will still be OK because others have a "moral obligation" to see them through.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

You're just describing our corruption complex. That doesn't stop the developed nations from nailing their own including banks where the money is kept. Swiss for instance doesn't need Africa blood money and should have long ago repatriated the  billions parked there..to countries like Kenya, Congo,Nigeria and etc. They can change the law to take evidence from non-gov actors and declare assets held by foreigners to be illegal. You cannot demand evidence of judicial action from a corrupt justice system.

The victim here remain the poor kenyan tax payer being fleeced. He or she deserve all the help. Of course it our primary responsibility as kenyans to help our selves..and we have  been doing remarkably well by sacking 70% of Mps and political class.

I partially agree. However note that Kenya has been very uncooperative when it comes to being helped to nab thieves. Here are some recent examples

1. Justice Nyamu outlaws seeking such help from Switzerland - to protect Kamani, Wanjigi etc
2. Okemo and Gichuru - free men. They are even parading the fact that they were never charged in Kenya as proof of their "innocence"
3. Poland demands the extradition of Kabogo / Joho for drugs - Even the media went dumb

One can't expect the developed countries to help if the government has placed itself as the protector of these shadowy figures.

The Swiss could definitely do more.  They could for instance streamline their laws and lower the bars to deal with African thieves ruthlessly.  Same with other countries where these thieves invest their loot.  Denying them and their families opportunities to travel would also go a long way; to them, Kenya is just a place to loot.

That aside, there is no rationalizing people like Okemo and other known crooks being on very cozy terms with this regime, which if IEBC is believable, got over 50% of the vote.  Or paying out money to Anglo-leasing after AG intentionally lets a winnable case die in Switzerland.

[MOON Ki]

Lesson learnt. Next time have unsealed warrants and then nap them fat cats on their foreign trips. They can even be invited to Jersey, they'll promptly show up and arrested. You cannot give up. You cannot allow that cynical myopic negativity to derail a country.

I think their main concern was that Okemo and Gichuru had broken laws in their countries.   I doubt that they care whether Kenya is getting "derailed" or not.   Nor do I see why that should care; it is Kenyans who should.

[RV Pundit]

You're asking for the impossible. The African is unable to deal with high level graft because it involves all the fat cats from the judges to the president. Therefore why would you insist on banging your head on the wall.

This is like FIFA. Sepp Blatter owned the damn thing like some of these characters basically own Kenya.

I think if developed world classify corrupt proceedings like they do with terror or drugs; we can defeat at least half of our thieves; they'll find increasingly very few safe heavens;

Bottomline: Wanjigi can only be brought down by FBI or someone of such clout. Not even Mumbi Ngugi will survive taking down those kind of criminals. And there is prima facia evidence these thugs have used developed world systems to loot...so why not nab them?

At the root of my comments is need for African countries to end this idea that they can mess up as they like, but they will still be OK because others have a "moral obligation" to see them through.

[MOON Ki]

The Swiss could definitely do more.  They could for instance streamline their laws and lower the bars to deal with African thieves ruthlessly.  Same with other countries where these thieves invest their loot.  Denying them and their families opportunities to travel would also go a long way; to them, Kenya is just a place to loot.

This doesn't solve the fundamental problem.    A good example is the case of Nigeria: the Swiss recovered hundreds of millions and returned them to Nigeria.   There they got promptly stolen again!    That is why the USA government is insisting that the near-$500 million they have recently recovered will return to Nigeria only in a way that the USA sees fit.

As long as the thieves are free, busy, and thriving, recovering and returning money will have a very limited effect.

[RV Pundit]

You're impossible. The point is still the same. They want Okemo and Gichuru extradiated to face trial. Chance are..Okemo and Gichuru..will buy their way out in kenya and stick within our borders. So for Jersey the next time they want to nab a kenyan for any crimes in their jurisdiction..just don't publicize the proceedings for warrants.

I think their main concern was that Okemo and Gichuru had broken laws in their countries.   I doubt that they care whether Kenya is getting "derailed" or not.   Nor do I see why that should care; it is Kenyans who should.

[MOON Ki]

You're asking for the impossible. The African is unable to deal with high level graft because it involves all the fat cats from the judges to the president. Therefore why would you insist on banging your head on the wall.

I insist on banging my head on the wall because:

(a) I believe that it is only Africans who can solve their fundamental problems, such as corruption.   One country cannot solve the problem of "moral deficits" in another country.

(b) I believe that at some point, the average African will reach a point where he will act to bring about change---for example, by considering things like character and integrity when choosing those who would lead.

[RV Pundit]

Your beliefs are wrongs. Those in position to help now; should help now. FBI for instance helped FIFA. They didn't wait for Africa and third world corrupt football managers to do it..in year 2090.

That in summary is a moral obligation. You can help now. Help now.

I insist on banging my head on the wall because:

(a) I believe that it is only Africans who can solve their fundamental problems, such as corruption.   One country cannot solve the problem of "moral deficits" in another country.

(b) I believe that at some point, the average African will reach a point where he will act to bring about change---for example, by considering things like character and integrity when choosing those who would lead.

[MOON Ki]

Your beliefs are wrongs.

Which beliefs are wrong?   That only the African can solve his fundamental problems?   I have yet to see any evidence that anyone else can or will solve them.

Those in position to help now; should help now.

Why?

FBI for instance helped FIFA. They didn't wait for Africa and third world corrupt football managers to do it..in year 2090

The USA did not act to help FIFA or because anyone in the USA particularly cares about football.  It acted purely out of legal self-interest, i.e. that certain US laws had been broken and the US banking system had been abused.   The real legal issue is not so much that they ate chicken, but that they had the chicken plucked in the USA.

[MOON Ki]

...and we have  been doing remarkably well by sacking 70% of Mps and political class.

The "sacking rate" at elections has certainly been impressive.   But I wouldn't call it "remarkably well" when the sacked are then replaced with a similar or worse lot.   Doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.  That cycle needs to be broken, and it is where Kenyans need to wake up at some point.

[RV Pundit]

So you think our corrupt fatcats have not broken US and EU laws? That is rich coming from you. The point is very simple. Everyone should do their part. Africans will do their part considering the circumstances and the resources. Developed world ought to do their part too. Let everyone help. Esp those with more abilities.

The USA did not act to help FIFA or because anyone in the USA particularly cares about football.  It acted purely out of legal self-interest, i.e. that certain US laws had been broken and the US banking system had been abused.   The real legal issue is not so much that they ate chicken, but that they had the chicken plucked in the USA.

[RV Pundit]

There won't be any sudden waking up...unless we go for coup...we will slowly improve our leadership cadre. I personally think we are improving based on indicators I see around. Probably the first parliament of 60s had 10 degree holders..now it probably has 10 non-degree holders. But we need all the help as we improve.

The "sacking rate" at elections has certainly been impressive.   But I wouldn't call it "remarkably well" when the sacked are then replaced with a similar or worse lot.   Doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.  That cycle needs to be broken, and it is where Kenyans need to wake up at some point.

[MOON Ki]

No business be it bank or whatever exist to make money from illegal proceeds...be they corruption(crime) or drugs or terrorism. They have turn a blind eye on third world corruption..because it doesn't affect them..except when immigrants like you ran there and cause problems. Otherwise they have zero tolerance for money from drugs or terror activities.

Zero tolerance?   Wasn't it just a couple of years ago that HSBC, one of the world's largest banks,  admitted to knowingly laundering drug money from Colombia and Mexico and paid a $1.9 billion fine to the USA?

[RV Pundit]

I mean the GOV. Not the banks. The job of any gov is to regulate business including banks to ensure they are not engaged in criminal aiding activities like opening accounts purposefully for laundering money from Africa. Fed acted against the bank. Now that is what we need to here more. US feds can replace the lecture on corruption with real action on corruption in third world countries by making it hard for the corrupt to roam the free world.

Zero tolerance?   Wasn't it just a couple of years ago that HSBC, one of the world's largest banks,  admitted to knowingly laundering drug money from Colombia and Mexico and paid a $1.9 billion fine to the USA?

[MOON Ki]

So you think our corrupt fatcats have not broken US and EU laws? That is rich coming from you.

What gives you the idea that I think that?    What I stated is that the USA is not acting in the FIFA case because it cares to help FIFA; the focus is on those US laws that have been broken.

But if I may ask: what US laws do you think "our corrupt fatcats" might have broken?

The point is very simple. Everyone should do their part. Africans will do their part considering the circumstances and the resources. Developed world ought to do their part too. Let everyone help. Esp those with more abilities.

This is the part I have problems with: "should", "ought to", etc.   As long as their interests are not harmed and their laws are not broken, why the "should" and "ought to"?

[MOON Ki]

US feds can replace the lecture on corruption with real action on corruption in third world countries by making it hard for the corrupt to roam the free world.

Why should the USA care as long as US interests are not harmed?   

The other thing you have to keep in mind is the US judiciary: the mere fact that some fellow is thoroughly corrupt in some third-world place does not mean the US government can do as it pleases.    The serious criminals have the means to buy serious legal muscle, and the US Department of Justice has sometimes found itself at the end of some very hard tackles.