Egypt And Wazungu

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

How long do you think it takes to change culture. For a real sustainable culture change, I say it takes long time. And that is what history tell us.

What does history tell us about corruption. You may not like it but history of corruption (including in Chicago and Britain) tells us it solves itself as long as the economy is growing. So it must be frustrating to watch endemic corruption ravage the country but unlike you, my history lessons, tell me to check the gdp growth, and if people are become more wealthier (could be an extra chicken this year) in spite of
corruption, there is hope that in 100yrs (history say so..not 5yrs)...corruption will no longer exist.

There are of course stuff that can do with immediate actions...easy quick wins...but some of the more serious ones like tribalism, corruption,poverty, inequality and insecurity cannot be solved easily.

Sorry but I draw blank in anything Cambodia. I only remember it for heroic US movies for some war there with Veitnam. In fact Cambodia in our place referred to pit latrines...given the US evil shelling that was going there.

Pundit,

I agree that history has a lot to do with Africa's condition.  But I cannot use it to excuse the weekly corruption scandals plaguing Kenya for instance.  That one vooke will tell you it's the genes.  I will just call it a bad culture.

There is a thread on this forum about Cambodia.  Because it's a country whose recent history mirrors just about any that you can pick from Africa.  A country that did not suffer the relative isolation in its ancient history that sub-Saharan Africa did.

What I am saying is that most current problems have more immediate and ready explanations than ancient history.

Chicago and Britain were manufacturing things that the world needed.  There is still corruption in Chicago, but it's not a viable avenue.  Not because of GDP, but because it is costly.

If your theory is valid, then corruption did not emerge suddenly Kenya.  And it will go away with time and GDP growth.

Looking at pre-colonial Kenya.  Some obvious questions.  Was Arap Samoei stealing from the Nandi?  How about the laibons?  Were Kikuyu elders thieves?

Put another way.  When did corruption become acceptable to the Negro? 

I don't know the answer to that.  But I think it happens in less than a hundred years.  It takes hold because it is rewarding. 

I can't place it anywhere in a precolonial context.  Is it because the African was relatively content?

How long has the African really been incorrigibly corrupt?  I think it's a few decades max. 

It seems to me that the corrupt behavior comes with the modern state.  Maybe they pick it from colonial administrators. 

The colonial state was built to exploit the native.  Not to bring him up.  It was okay to rob the people.

It seems that the Negro inherits that without changing the purpose of the state.  Either way, the behavior cannot be older than 100 years. 

[MOON Ki]

History is for instance telling me not to expect instant coffee like development in kenya; to be expect a slow gradual evolution of the kenyan negro. It hard reality. You can cry about it, you can give up and pack and go, but that is just the reality. Sub-sahara africa will not emerge out of this soon..

No, I don't cry about it.   That's because I already packed up and went.    My "lamentation", such as it is, is largely on behalf of those who are told that they will have to wait for generations to see change.    If they are content with that view, then there is not much more to be said.

[RV Pundit]

Terminator,

There are two parts. Modern corruption. Old corruption. In old primitive societies there were really no gov that would breed corruption. The more the economy become complex;the more redtape; the more opportunities to game or corrupt it;

It is not accidental that bar a few countries; corruption in sub-sahara africa is nearly endemic; the reason is obvious poverty; the same with crimes;

When you say you make people pay? We shoot robbers on the spot (without even court hearing); but does that ever stop desperate poor people in the slums from turning criminal? Risk-Reward matrix is messed up because poor people have nothing to lose; and that is what most African really are; WSR was very poor 20yrs ago! So was Jomo, Moi, Kibaki and Jaramogi; Nothing could stop them from stealing. Maybe the absence of the opportunity to be in charge of millions.

As long as we are on average poor; we will engage in crime...even if we put death penalty and shoot at suspicion in place.

As the economy grows, people will find more opportunities to live a less risky life. For now Kenya is a huge jungle. If you send a anti-corruption guy, he will be corrupted before end of the day. The replacement will be equally corrupt.

This reminds me when I use to work with lots of white folks...they use to wonder why kenyan staff were 99% likely to be corrupt....and we are talking private sector..not gov.

We should just make sure we are moving slowly from 99% to 98% corruption....and not regressing. That is what I keep tabs on and what worries me. The 99% doesn't. If it goes to 99.5% then we are getting stuck.

[RV Pundit]

Nobody is telling them. It history. You can find history and ask her why. We cannot really predict the future with certainty so we tend to look back and draw trends from history.

No, I don't cry about it.   That's because I already packed up and went.    My "lamentation", such as it is, is largely on behalf of those who are told that they will have to wait for generations to see change.    If they are content with that view, then there is not much more to be said.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Terminator,

There are two parts. Modern corruption. Old corruption. In old primitive societies there were really no gov that would breed corruption. The more the economy become complex;the more redtape; the more opportunities to game or corrupt it;

It is not accidental that bar a few countries; corruption in sub-sahara africa is nearly endemic; the reason is obvious poverty; the same with crimes;

When you say you make people pay? We shoot robbers on the spot (without even court hearing); but does that ever stop desperate poor people in the slums from turning criminal? Risk-Reward matrix is messed up because poor people have nothing to lose; and that is what most African really are; WSR was very poor 20yrs ago! So was Jomo, Moi, Kibaki and Jaramogi; Nothing could stop them from stealing. Maybe the absence of the opportunity to be in charge of millions.

As long as we are on average poor; we will engage in crime...even if we put death penalty and shoot at suspicion in place.

As the economy grows, people will find more opportunities to live a less risky life. For now Kenya is a huge jungle. If you send a anti-corruption guy, he will be corrupted before end of the day. The replacement will be equally corrupt.

This reminds me when I use to work with lots of white folks...they use to wonder why kenyan staff were 99% likely to be corrupt....and we are talking private sector..not gov.

We should just make sure we are moving slowly from 99% to 98% corruption....and not regressing. That is what I keep tabs on and what worries me. The 99% doesn't. If it goes to 99.5% then we are getting stuck.

I think you mix up petty and grand corruption.  Petty corruption is not the real problem.  It's a symptom of grand corruption.  The guys behind grand corruption with few exceptions, know no poverty.  I am talking Jimmy Wanjigis, Gideon Mois, Alfred Getongas.

Think Waiguru and NYS millions.  How does that fit the poverty theory?