Nipate
Forum => Controversial => Topic started by: kadame on October 12, 2014, 10:06:29 AM
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I just remembered that a good number of early Christian gentiles were slaves. In ancient Rome, slavery was practiced especially by the nobility, as a normal part of life. But because Christianity, quite uniquely, did not recognize worldly status as important, the lowest of the low in that society found a place in the faith. That is how Christianity eventually found its way to Roman nobility in spite of severe persecutions. It was because these ancient high class had Christians living in their households as slaves unbeknownst to them. They could tell some of these slaves were not ordinary people from their lives and were attracted to that special thing that was inside these people despite their low status--someway somehow, slaves led their masters to the faith. I remember reading about many Christian martyrs who had been members of the nobility and were killed when discovered to be Christian, including one who was the wife of the emperor, and almost all of them had discovered the faith through a slave. So for those of us who think worldly status or wealth has any connection to Christian faithfulness or joy, I would encourage you to read up on ancient Christian martyrs, who were from the highest class (nobility/high-born) and the lowest class (slaves). :) You can start here http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/gladiators/martyrdom.html
Also from the NIV, in Romans 8,
Present Suffering and Future Glory
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
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Thank you kadame/ka-quail :)
This just serves to prove that there is NO inconsistency between Christianity and poverty,which needs to be denied using all illogic. It is extremely insulting to the poor to imply that somewhat wherever they @ has something to do with their level of faith,ignorance or curse.
We will be transformed and these vile corruptible bodies shall be clothed with the incorruptible glorified bodies just like Jesus- 1 Cor 15:50-54. It is vain to attempt to live glorified lives in our present state. Reality hits you like a hammer. Many Christians have lost their faith out of this erroneous teaching and I don't envy the purveyors of this doctrine when they stand before Jesus on judgement day
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You're welcome, vooke.
From: http://www.earlychurch.com/unconditional-love.php
A Love Without Condition - Early Church History
At no other time in the history of Christianity did love so characterize the entire church as it did in the first three centuries. And Roman society took note. Tertullian reported that the Romans would exclaim, “See how they love one another!”
Justin Martyr sketched Christian love this way: “We who used to value the acquisition of wealth and possessions more than anything else now bring what we have into a common fund and share it with anyone who needs it. We used to hate and destroy one another and refused to associate with people of another race or country. Now, because of Christ, we live together with such people and pray for our enemies.”
Clement, describing the person who has come to know God, wrote, “He impoverishes himself out of love, so that he is certain he may never overlook a brother in need, especially if he knows he can bear poverty better than his brother. He likewise considers the pain of another as his own pain. And if he suffers any hardship because of having given out of his own poverty, he does not complain.”
When a devastating plague swept across the ancient world in the third century, Christians were the only ones who cared for the sick, which they did at the risk of contracting the plague themselves. Meanwhile, pagans were throwing infected members of their own families into the streets even before they died, in order to protect themselves from the disease.
Another example illustrates both the brotherly love of Christians and their uncompromising commitment to Jesus as Lord. A pagan actor became a Christian, but he realized he had to change his employment because most plays encouraged immorality and were steeped in pagan idolatry. Furthermore, the theater sometimes purposefully turned boys into homosexuals so they could better play the roles of women on stage. Since this newly-converted actor had no other job skills, he considered establishing an acting school to teach drama to non-Christian students. However, he first submitted his idea to the leaders of his church for their counsel.
The leaders told him that if acting was an immoral profession then it would be wrong to train others in it. Nevertheless, since this was a rather novel question, they wrote to Cyprian in nearby Carthage for his thoughts. Cyprian agreed that a profession unfit for a Christian to practice was also unfit for him to teach, even if this was his sole means of support.
How many of us would be so concerned about righteousness that we would submit our employment decisions to our body of elders or board of deacons? How many church leaders today would be so concerned about offending God that they would take such an uncompromising position?
But that isn't the end of the story. Cyprian also told this neighboring church that they should be willing to support the actor if he had no other means of earning a living—just as they supported orphans, widows, and other needy persons. Going further, he wrote, “If your church is financially unable to support him, he may move over to us and here receive whatever he needs for food and clothing.” Cyprian and his church didn't even know this actor, yet they were willing to support him because he was a fellow believer. As one Christian told the Romans, “We love one another with a mutual love because we do not know how to hate.” If Christians today made such a statement to the world, would the world believe it?
The love of the early Christians wasn't limited simply to their fellow believers. Christians also lovingly helped non-believers: the poor, the orphans, the elderly, the sick, the shipwrecked—even their persecutors. Jesus had said, “Love your enemies ... and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you” (Matt. 5:44). The early Christians accepted this statement as a command from their Lord, rather than as an ideal that couldn't be actually practiced in real life.
Lactantius wrote, “If we all derive our origin from one man, whom God created, we are plainly all of one family. Therefore it must be considered an abomination to hate another human, no matter how guilty he may be. For this reason, God has decreed that we should hate no one, but that we should eliminate hatred. So we can comfort our enemies by reminding them of our mutual relationship. For if we have all been given life from the same God, what else are we but brothers? ... Because we are all brothers, God teaches us to never do evil to one another, but only good—giving aid to those who are oppressed and experiencing hardship, and giving food to the hungry.”
That was status/wealth, but how about ancient Christians and health? Did ancient Christians know disease? I would encourage people to read on the ancient plagues called the Cyprian and Antonine plagues that decimated European populations.
This is a summary on one of them "In the middle of the third century, a plague spread through much of the Roman Empire. The illness was so lethal and so contagious that in just one day five thousand died from it in Rome. The plague was similarly catastrophic in Alexandria, Egypt. Frightened by the disease, many of the pagan residents abandoned those among them stricken with it, casting them into the streets to die alone. The dead were left unburied, filling the city with the stench of death. Amid these horrors, many of Alexandria?s persecuted Christians, the clergy and the laity, voluntarily came forward to nurse the dying pagans as well as their own plague victims. These Christians knew the grave danger of contagion to which they were exposing themselves. Many contracted the plague from those they had tended. The bishop of Alexandria who recorded these events, Saint Dionysius, regarded the Christians who died from the plague in this manner as virtual martyrs of Christian charity in having sacrificed their lives to nurse those who had persecuted them. "
http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=6018
While the pagans abandoned their own, even their children, parents, put them outside the house on the streets and even ran from the city to avoid the plague, Christians stayed behind to tend to the sick, both Christian sick ones and abandoned pagan sick ones who had persecuted them before the outbreak of the disease. So the disease did not discriminate, apparently. :) And they did this at the risk of their own lives and many of them in fact did get the disease and died, and for this reason were considered martyrs by the ancient church, for having given up their lives for the sake of others as Jesus had said "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man should lay down his life for his friends". This Christian sacrifice is considered among the main reasons for the spread of Christianity in the ancient world. And no wonder..it was love in action. :)
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The Christians of old show that Christianity does not esteem worldly status or wealth as anything of value. :) What matters in the end is one's inner wealth and status before God. In fact, worldliness is precisely to esteem these earthly things as if they are ends in themselves and judging peoples worth based on such shallow standards. Nowhere in the New Testament is material wealth proclaimed as something that Christianity concerns itself with, except to press the duty to share it with those who have need of it. :) In fact, wealth is really nothing to boast about. Think about it, it doesn't make you any holier than the next person and if you have it, you have a greater burden to share it and if you are selfish with it, you will give an account for every last penny of it to the person who really owns it, for you are a mere borrower. Jesus even shows that it can be an obstacle to one's salvation and if we are honest, looking around our own world today, at the rich and mighty, we will see that there is truth to that. Hence, if we have it, while we should be grateful for it, we must be extra careful lest we end up getting proud and placing our trust in our possessions thinking that they are our assurance in this life or that they make us special. We also have to make sure we never turn away those God brings to us who have need of it. :)
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I don't think suffering in Christianity is limited to the poor. Suffering is for all humanity. Both the rich and poor suffer.
vooke says this proves that there is NO inconsistency between Christianity and poverty.
But neither do I see any inconsistency between Christianity and prosperity.
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Negro,
That's the point! Wealth is no barometer of spirituality. So you can't look down on the have-nots or parade your millions as some manifestation of your super-spirituality or faith
Thank you Lord Jesus for revealing this to this negro
Poverty is ONE of the forms of suffering
I don't think suffering in Christianity is limited to the poor. Suffering is for all humanity. Both the rich and poor suffer.
vooke says this proves that there is NO inconsistency between Christianity and poverty.
But neither do I see any inconsistency between Christianity and prosperity.
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conclusion: poverty is no piety nor is wealth wickedness.
Negro,
That's the point! Wealth is no barometer of spirituality. So you can't look down on the have-nots or parade your millions as some manifestation of your super-spirituality or faith
Thank you Lord Jesus for revealing this to this negro
Poverty is ONE of the forms of suffering
I don't think suffering in Christianity is limited to the poor. Suffering is for all humanity. Both the rich and poor suffer.
vooke says this proves that there is NO inconsistency between Christianity and poverty.
But neither do I see any inconsistency between Christianity and prosperity.
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Wickedness is promising wealth to poor Christians on account of their giving to church aka prosperity gospel
What took you so long to draw conclusion on matters which was not in contention all along?
conclusion: poverty is no piety nor is wealth wickedness.
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conclusion: poverty is no piety nor is wealth wickedness.
That is true, but it can be said the other way as well: wealth is no piety nor is poverty wickedness. :D
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I don't think economic status matters in Christianity.
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That's exactly what anti-prosperity proponents need to hear. They think poverty is more Godly and prosperity less Godly.
I don't think economic status matters in Christianity.
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Yep. What's wrong with being rich? Anyone can be poor but being rich takes effort. I don't see how at all it relates to personal belief systems. Why would God want anyone to be dirt poor if you don't have to be. If richness is making you morally corrupt then be poor. But King Solomon etc. they served God as the richest people in the world.
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Amen. God bless.
Yep. What's wrong with being rich? Anyone can be poor but being rich takes effort. I don't see how at all it relates to personal belief systems. Why would God want anyone to be dirt poor if you don't have to be. If richness is making you morally corrupt then be poor. But King Solomon etc. they served God as the richest people in the world.
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Thank you kindly.
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I haven't met any anti-prosperity proponent. But I have met many deluded negroes who believe tithing and offering is a sure ticket to immense wealth.
That's exactly what anti-prosperity proponents need to hear. They think poverty is more Godly and prosperity less Godly.
I don't think economic status matters in Christianity.
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That's one side of the story, so what did you tell them about vookes view on tithes and offerings?
I haven't met any anti-prosperity proponent. But I have met many deluded negroes who believe tithing and offering is a sure ticket to immense wealth.
That's exactly what anti-prosperity proponents need to hear. They think poverty is more Godly and prosperity less Godly.
I don't think economic status matters in Christianity.
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I met bittertruth and hammered the truth down through his indoctrinated skin that he has been conned by Pious Fraudsters
That's one side of the story, so what did you tell them about vookes view on tithes and offerings?