Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Njuri Ncheke on February 24, 2021, 10:14:09 AM
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In brief he told me luhyas extended up to Naivasha and their kingdoms(wanga)got assimilated by neighbors but luhya influence is found in Nandi and all western and Nyanza peoples. I told him that's a very new thing haven't heard before, guy continued and told me that's why Idi Amin had claimed all kenya up to Naivasha since that's how the wanga/ganda kingdoms had spread, I thought that made some sense. Guy could recount history including wanga kingdom very clearly. What is the extent of luhya mixing in Kalenjins? Appears Luhya are in RV for more than menial work and could have some claim to it.
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That one is idiot. Wanga kingdom did not even extend beyond Mumias to rest of Luhyaland. Luhyas only came to RV with Brits - before that - the influence - was mostly Kalenjin dictated. Luhyas we were tired of being attacked by Kalenjin - forged an alliance with Kalenjin - and as minimum kalenjin required they be circumscized - so you can say cut luhyas were pro-kalenjin - tirikis, tachonis, bukusus -
In brief he told me luhyas extended up to Naivasha and their kingdoms(wanga)got assimilated by neighbors but luhya influence is found in Nandi and all western and Nyanza peoples. I told him that's a very new thing haven't heard before, guy continued and told me that's why Idi Amin had claimed all kenya up to Naivasha since that's how the wanga/ganda kingdoms had spread, I thought that made some sense. Guy could recount history including wanga kingdom very clearly. What is the extent of luhya mixing in Kalenjins? Appears Luhya are in RV for more than menial work and cpuld have some claim to it.
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They occupy only Matungu constituency and parts of Mumias. They were never that significant reason they hid under mzungu skirt for protection.
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That one is idiot. Wanga kingdom did not even extend beyond Mumias to rest of Luhyaland. Luhyas only came to RV with Brits - before that - the influence - was mostly Kalenjin dictated. Luhyas we were tired of being attacked by Kalenjin - forged an alliance with Kalenjin - and as minimum kalenjin required they be circumscized - so you can say cut luhyas were pro-kalenjin - tirikis, tachonis, bukusus -
In brief he told me luhyas extended up to Naivasha and their kingdoms(wanga)got assimilated by neighbors but luhya influence is found in Nandi and all western and Nyanza peoples. I told him that's a very new thing haven't heard before, guy continued and told me that's why Idi Amin had claimed all kenya up to Naivasha since that's how the wanga/ganda kingdoms had spread, I thought that made some sense. Guy could recount history including wanga kingdom very clearly. What is the extent of luhya mixing in Kalenjins? Appears Luhya are in RV for more than menial work and cpuld have some claim to it.
What about that claim linking Idi Amin that Uganda extends to Naivasha. What was the motive behind Amin thinking?
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They occupy only Matungu constituency and parts of Mumias. They were never that significant reason they hid under mzungu skirt for protection.
Is Trans nzoia historically Luhya to somee extent? I know its properly Kalenjin land but do Luhyas have an historical claim at the minimum?
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Mzungu drew arbitrary borders. Initially the plan was to have on big country - East Africa Protectorate. Then it became big. Then it was decided to be split - and borders kept changing - drawn by Wazungu.
What about that claim linking Idi Amin that Uganda extends to Naivasha. What was the motive behind Amin thinking?
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Tranzoia, Uasing Gishu and Nakuru plains originally belonged to Maasai - but by 1850 - Maasai had been mostly vanguished by Kalenjin - the area was really pasture land - with very little settlement - mzungu found it empty almost. Luhyas came to Tranzoia with Brits - just like Kikuyus found themselves in Nyandarua, Laikipia, Nakuru first as European workers and later as land owners. Now they call those counties Mt kenya. It's almost abomination.
Is Trans nzoia historically Luhya to somee extent? I know its properly Kalenjin land but do Luhyas have an historical claim at the minimum?
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RV , you amaze me , why is okei for Kales to take Maasai land but not okei for Kikuyus to do the same ?
Truth of the matter any Kenyan should be able to live anywhere , Kenya belomgs to all Kenyans.
Tranzoia, Uasing Gishu and Nakuru plains originally belonged to Maasai - but by 1850 - Maasai had been mostly vanguished by Kalenjin - the area was really pasture land - with very little settlement - mzungu found it empty almost. Luhyas came to Tranzoia with Brits - just like Kikuyus found themselves in Nyandarua, Laikipia, Nakuru first as European workers and later as land owners. Now they call those counties Mt kenya. It's almost abomination.
Is Trans nzoia historically Luhya to somee extent? I know its properly Kalenjin land but do Luhyas have an historical claim at the minimum?
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We were talking history; otherwise your right; kenyans should live anywhere.
RV , you amaze me , why is okei for Kales to take Maasai land but not okei for Kikuyus to do the same ?
Truth of the matter any Kenyan should be able to live anywhere , Kenya belomgs to all Kenyans.
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Mzungu drew arbitrary borders. Initially the plan was to have on big country - East Africa Protectorate. Then it became big. Then it was decided to be split - and borders kept changing - drawn by Wazungu.
What about that claim linking Idi Amin that Uganda extends to Naivasha. What was the motive behind Amin thinking?
Oh yeah had totally forgotten about that, this Luhya guy made me doubt my history for a second. Amin followed the initial british maps funny someone can twist that to suit his interest.
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In brief he told me luhyas extended up to Naivasha and their kingdoms(wanga)got assimilated by neighbors but luhya influence is found in Nandi and all western and Nyanza peoples.
Even though it's not clear what this means, the Luhyas(who were then not even a concept) did not end up anywhere East of Western Kenya before colonization. The Wanga collaborated with the British to control the other Luhya tribes because they had the political organization. There are Luhyas who have moved into Nandi but this on the borderlands and is a postcolonial phenomenon.
I told him that's a very new thing haven't heard before, guy continued and told me that's why Idi Amin had claimed all kenya up to Naivasha since that's how the wanga/ganda kingdoms had spread, I thought that made some sense. Guy could recount history including wanga kingdom very clearly. What is the extent of luhya mixing in Kalenjins? Appears Luhya are in RV for more than menial work and could have some claim to it.
You should have told him he didn't make any sense. Buganda Kingdom was in Central Uganda. It was used by the British to administer other parts and Kingdoms of what is now Uganda. They also provided a ready pool of soldiers for the British, same as the Wanga did in Western Kenya.
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Till 1902 the border of Baganda Kingdom Protectorate (Uganda) extended till Naivasha. Uganda was never a settler colony like Kenya. The British settlers wanted more land for themselves and took part of the Uganda Protectorate and handed it over to Kenya. It was just a selfish move. Idi Amin was just dreaming as it was too late to make out of the already corrupt Kenyans, Ugandans.
What about that claim linking Idi Amin that Uganda extends to Naivasha. What was the motive behind Amin thinking?
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Till 1902 the border of Baganda Kingdom Protectorate (Uganda) extended till Naivasha. Uganda was never a settler colony like Kenya. The British settlers wanted more land for themselves and took part of the Uganda Protectorate and handed it over to Kenya. It was just a selfish move. Idi Amin was just dreaming as it was too late to make out of the already corrupt Kenyans, Ugandans.
What about that claim linking Idi Amin that Uganda extends to Naivasha. What was the motive behind Amin thinking?
That's right. I even remember seeing some old pictures of Maasai in Uganda. I am not sure if Amin ever made a serious claim on that territory. In Kagera however, it was a different story.
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Why do you like distorting history and making up fairly tales. The only Luhyas who do not circumcise are the Samia who have very close relations with the Luo.
Circumcision is more a Bantu thing than Nilotic to which the Kalejin belong to. So most likely the Kalejin adopted male circumcision much later than the other groups. Also other groups of Luhyas who have no close ties to the Kalejin practice circumcision like the Maragoli or Kisa.
Also do not confuse the Tirki with the Terik. The Tiriki are Luhyas neighbouring the Nandi. Terik are Kalejin who live in Luhya territory. A good example of Terik is Sally Kosgei who grew up in Luhyaland and speaks both Luhya and Kalejin.
That one is idiot. Wanga kingdom did not even extend beyond Mumias to rest of Luhyaland. Luhyas only came to RV with Brits - before that - the influence - was mostly Kalenjin dictated. Luhyas we were tired of being attacked by Kalenjin - forged an alliance with Kalenjin - and as minimum kalenjin required they be circumscized - so you can say cut luhyas were pro-kalenjin - tirikis, tachonis, bukusus -
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The only bantus who circumcize in kenya learnt it from Kalenjin and the aboriginal Okiek. Ugandans bantu don't circumsize. Luhyas borrowed Kalenjin circumscion and age-set almost word for word. Kikuyus and Merus the same.
That is why you have common names like Maina, Juma (chumo), Mwangi/Nyongi ,Nyige, Irungu( corrupted of korongoro) etc - in luhyas, gusii, kikuyus - and kalenjin. These are kalenjin ageset names..Maina, Nyongi, Sawe, Chumo, etc
Those are kalenjin ageset names - corrupted to sound bantu.
1. Bakolongolo: 1900-1910 and also 2000-2010
2. Bakikwameti: 1912-1922 and also 2012-2022
3. Bakananachi: 1924-1934
4. Bakinyikeu: 1936-1946
5. Banyange: 1948-1958
6. Bamaina: 1960-1970
7. Bachuma: 1972-1986
8. Basawa: 1988-1998
Kalenjin circumscion is very old - learnt from ancient egypt times. Kalenjin were north most nilotes - and move to Ethiopia then Kenya with Somalis/Oromos - from Cush Kingdom in present day Sudan.
Why do you like distorting history and making up fairly tales. The only Luhyas who do not circumcise are the Samia who have very close relations with the Luo.
Circumcision is more a Bantu thing than Nilotic to which the Kalejin belong to. So most likely the Kalejin adopted male circumcision much later than the other groups. Also other groups of Luhyas who have no close ties to the Kalejin practice circumcision like the Maragoli or Kisa.
Also do not confuse the Tirki with the Terik. The Tiriki are Luhyas neighbouring the Nandi. Terik are Kalejin who live in Luhya territory. A good example of Terik is Sally Kosgei who grew up in Luhyaland and speaks both Luhya and Kalejin.
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This comment - shows Bukusu started it 200yrs ago.
Point to note and add to your history is the Bukusu started circumcision of their men adults in 1800 with the first kolongolo age group.These of the 1900 is a second generation and 2000 is now the third make your research properly it's crucial to the generations to come.Omuchuma bakokiwe wa Joseph Wamalwa. Omuchuma khurano!
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Why do you like distorting history and making up fairly tales. The only Luhyas who do not circumcise are the Samia who have very close relations with the Luo.
Circumcision is more a Bantu thing than Nilotic to which the Kalejin belong to. So most likely the Kalejin adopted male circumcision much later than the other groups. Also other groups of Luhyas who have no close ties to the Kalejin practice circumcision like the Maragoli or Kisa.
Also do not confuse the Tirki with the Terik. The Tiriki are Luhyas neighbouring the Nandi. Terik are Kalejin who live in Luhya territory. A good example of Terik is Sally Kosgei who grew up in Luhyaland and speaks both Luhya and Kalejin.
That one is idiot. Wanga kingdom did not even extend beyond Mumias to rest of Luhyaland. Luhyas only came to RV with Brits - before that - the influence - was mostly Kalenjin dictated. Luhyas we were tired of being attacked by Kalenjin - forged an alliance with Kalenjin - and as minimum kalenjin required they be circumscized - so you can say cut luhyas were pro-kalenjin - tirikis, tachonis, bukusus -
I think Luhya circumcision may have been influenced by Kalenjin. To what degree and the reasons debatable. Because they use somewhat similar age-set systems. But they did not circumcise women, even traditionally. To that extend, I would say it was influenced by Kalenjin who were the only other group that practiced it. As a Bantu group, they likely were not doing it before contact with Kalenjin groups, much like Ugandans in general. But they also didn't do it to stop attacks from Kalenjin :D.
You are right about Terik. They are like Sabaot on the Northern side of Luhyaland - generally dominated by the larger group and likely in the process of assimilation before ukoloni. The Tiriki too may originally have come from an assimilated Kalenjin group.
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From what I know circumscion was a precondition to for luhya sub tribes to make friends with nandi mostly. The smaller luhya tribes almost became assimilated..while maragoli and bukusu were belligerent because they had the numbers to defend themselves. Tirikis ,Tachonis were nearly completely assimilated .They aim was to stop nandi rustling so they gave them their women and adopted nandi culture because kalenjin don't steal from their own..Kalenjin terik definitely were luhya .The opposite happened in bungoma...where sabaot and bungoma joined bukusu to defend themselves from nandi..nandi use to attack everyone except kipsigis who they considered their cousin..kipsigis and nandi was one land.Nandi would raid keiyos, pokot,luo ,Libya...they were the best cattle rustlers...and were feared far n wide
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From what I know circumscion was a precondition to for luhya sub tribes to make friends with nandi mostly. The smaller luhya tribes almost became assimilated..while maragoli and bukusu were belligerent because they had the numbers to defend themselves. Tirikis ,Tachonis were nearly completely assimilated .They aim was to stop nandi rustling so they gave them their women and adopted nandi culture because kalenjin don't steal from their own..Kalenjin terik definitely were luhya .The opposite happened in bungoma...where sabaot and bungoma joined bukusu to defend themselves from nandi..nandi use to attack everyone except kipsigis who they considered their cousin..kipsigis and nandi was one land.Nandi would raid keiyos, pokot,luo ,Libya...they were the best cattle rustlers...and were feared far n wide
I think you have it backwards. The Tachoni were actually previously Kalenjin who became Luhyanized. They even practiced FGM(the only Luhya group to do that) until recently. The Tirikis were also originally descended from Kalenjins. I am sure there are some Kalenjin who were assimilated Luhyas, but it's not well documented.
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From what I know circumscion was a precondition to for luhya sub tribes to make friends with nandi mostly. The smaller luhya tribes almost became assimilated..while maragoli and bukusu were belligerent because they had the numbers to defend themselves. Tirikis ,Tachonis were nearly completely assimilated .They aim was to stop nandi rustling so they gave them their women and adopted nandi culture because kalenjin don't steal from their own..Kalenjin terik definitely were luhya .The opposite happened in bungoma...where sabaot and bungoma joined bukusu to defend themselves from nandi..nandi use to attack everyone except kipsigis who they considered their cousin..kipsigis and nandi was one land.Nandi would raid keiyos, pokot,luo ,Libya...they were the best cattle rustlers...and were feared far n wide
I think you have it backwards. The Tachoni were actually previously Kalenjin who became Luhyanized. They even practiced FGM(the only Luhya group to do that) until recently. The Tirikis were also originally descended from Kalenjins. I am sure there are some Kalenjin who were assimilated Luhyas, but it's not well documented.
No..that is the popular theory but read proper history.Luhya strategy to tame kalenjin started with offering them women..more like kikuyus and maasai..and also adopting their culture including circumscion
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The only bantus who circumcize in kenya learnt it from Kalenjin and the aboriginal Okiek. Ugandans bantu don't circumsize. Luhyas borrowed Kalenjin circumscion and age-set almost word for word. Kikuyus and Merus the same.
That is why you have common names like Maina, Juma (chumo), Mwangi/Nyongi ,Nyige, Irungu( corrupted of korongoro) etc - in luhyas, gusii, kikuyus - and kalenjin. These are kalenjin ageset names..Maina, Nyongi, Sawe, Chumo, etc
Those are kalenjin ageset names - corrupted to sound bantu.
1. Bakolongolo: 1900-1910 and also 2000-2010
2. Bakikwameti: 1912-1922 and also 2012-2022
3. Bakananachi: 1924-1934
4. Bakinyikeu: 1936-1946
5. Banyange: 1948-1958
6. Bamaina: 1960-1970
7. Bachuma: 1972-1986
8. Basawa: 1988-1998
Kalenjin circumscion is very old - learnt from ancient egypt times. Kalenjin were north most nilotes - and move to Ethiopia then Kenya with Somalis/Oromos - from Cush Kingdom in present day Sudan.
Why do you like distorting history and making up fairly tales. The only Luhyas who do not circumcise are the Samia who have very close relations with the Luo.
Circumcision is more a Bantu thing than Nilotic to which the Kalejin belong to. So most likely the Kalejin adopted male circumcision much later than the other groups. Also other groups of Luhyas who have no close ties to the Kalejin practice circumcision like the Maragoli or Kisa.
Also do not confuse the Tirki with the Terik. The Tiriki are Luhyas neighbouring the Nandi. Terik are Kalejin who live in Luhya territory. A good example of Terik is Sally Kosgei who grew up in Luhyaland and speaks both Luhya and Kalejin.
You are totally wrong in Merus origin of circumcision and age set. I will post an elaborate Meru age set system. Kikuyus maybe were influenced as you say some of their age set collaborate with Kalenjin. Meru is unique in this regard and that's one basis we find ourselves to be distinct from kikuyus.
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In brief he told me luhyas extended up to Naivasha and their kingdoms(wanga)got assimilated by neighbors but luhya influence is found in Nandi and all western and Nyanza peoples.
Even though it's not clear what this means, the Luhyas(who were then not even a concept) did not end up anywhere East of Western Kenya before colonization. The Wanga collaborated with the British to control the other Luhya tribes because they had the political organization. There are Luhyas who have moved into Nandi but this on the borderlands and is a postcolonial phenomenon.
I told him that's a very new thing haven't heard before, guy continued and told me that's why Idi Amin had claimed all kenya up to Naivasha since that's how the wanga/ganda kingdoms had spread, I thought that made some sense. Guy could recount history including wanga kingdom very clearly. What is the extent of luhya mixing in Kalenjins? Appears Luhya are in RV for more than menial work and could have some claim to it.
You should have told him he didn't make any sense. Buganda Kingdom was in Central Uganda. It was used by the British to administer other parts and Kingdoms of what is now Uganda. They also provided a ready pool of soldiers for the British, same as the Wanga did in Western Kenya.
His argument was that the wanga and Ugandan kingdoms are closely related, he actually told me as a wanga he can understand the basoga and baganda better than bukusu who he says are not luhyas.To him Amin claim was that the wanga was an extention of the ugandan kingdoms in kenya hence he laid claim. But its clear this is a mirage he almost made me doubt myself he was very elaborate recanting wanga history even the Railas lineage.
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In brief he told me luhyas extended up to Naivasha and their kingdoms(wanga)got assimilated by neighbors but luhya influence is found in Nandi and all western and Nyanza peoples.
Even though it's not clear what this means, the Luhyas(who were then not even a concept) did not end up anywhere East of Western Kenya before colonization. The Wanga collaborated with the British to control the other Luhya tribes because they had the political organization. There are Luhyas who have moved into Nandi but this on the borderlands and is a postcolonial phenomenon.
I told him that's a very new thing haven't heard before, guy continued and told me that's why Idi Amin had claimed all kenya up to Naivasha since that's how the wanga/ganda kingdoms had spread, I thought that made some sense. Guy could recount history including wanga kingdom very clearly. What is the extent of luhya mixing in Kalenjins? Appears Luhya are in RV for more than menial work and could have some claim to it.
You should have told him he didn't make any sense. Buganda Kingdom was in Central Uganda. It was used by the British to administer other parts and Kingdoms of what is now Uganda. They also provided a ready pool of soldiers for the British, same as the Wanga did in Western Kenya.
His argument was that the wanga and Ugandan kingdoms are closely related, he actually told me as a wanga he can understand the basoga and baganda better than bukusu who he says are not luhyas.To him Amin claim was that the wanga was an extention of the ugandan kingdoms in kenya hence he laid claim. But its clear this is a mirage he almost made me doubt myself he was very elaborate recanting wanga history even the Railas lineage.
I don't know the extent of Wanga relation to Buganda - you can't rule out its influence. But this guy sounds pretty misinformed. The Wanga language is closer to Luganda than it is to Bukusu? Was he smoking his socks?
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From what I know circumscion was a precondition to for luhya sub tribes to make friends with nandi mostly. The smaller luhya tribes almost became assimilated..while maragoli and bukusu were belligerent because they had the numbers to defend themselves. Tirikis ,Tachonis were nearly completely assimilated .They aim was to stop nandi rustling so they gave them their women and adopted nandi culture because kalenjin don't steal from their own..Kalenjin terik definitely were luhya .The opposite happened in bungoma...where sabaot and bungoma joined bukusu to defend themselves from nandi..nandi use to attack everyone except kipsigis who they considered their cousin..kipsigis and nandi was one land.Nandi would raid keiyos, pokot,luo ,Libya...they were the best cattle rustlers...and were feared far n wide
I think you have it backwards. The Tachoni were actually previously Kalenjin who became Luhyanized. They even practiced FGM(the only Luhya group to do that) until recently. The Tirikis were also originally descended from Kalenjins. I am sure there are some Kalenjin who were assimilated Luhyas, but it's not well documented.
No..that is the popular theory but read proper history.Luhya strategy to tame kalenjin started with offering them women..more like kikuyus and maasai..and also adopting their culture including circumscion
I guess it's possible. But I don't know of any authoritative source on this question. Kenyan anthropologists have not added much to what mzungu did in terms of studying the ethnic groups. You'll find scattered opinions in books written by authors with a narrow focus, often purely on Luhya or Kalenjin or whatever subject matter they are looking at, the interaction between the ethnic groups being little more than a footnote. For instance when I look at Kipsigis, a lot of them don't look physically like other Kalenjin. To me that betrays an origin for many separate from the ancestral Kalenjin, especially when compared to a group like Marakwet. But there is little to zero in terms of authorititave analysis of why and how.