Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: RV Pundit on October 08, 2014, 11:44:23 AM
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Japanase lady judge going through the motion.
Uhuru required to attend because of critical nature of issues..either indefinite adjournment or termination.
Uhuru dual role...Uhuru as an accused person and as head of state of a state party.
Okay OTP turn....
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Adjournment pending the assemblies of parties of states.
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OTP object to six month. He says maybe after next election. Meaning removal of Uhuru.
The only date..is when the gov of kenya does what it does not.
Adjourn the case sine die (something like that...) without fixing a date..until GOK complies with orders.
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Judges ask OTP for any jurisprudence for such an indefinite adjournment.
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OTP say they cannot provide any case load or any laws underpinning the request...but he says trial judges have sweeping powers over the conduct of proceedings.
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The grant of adjournment is grounded in law. The indefinite part is not that controversial....given right now the case is already adjourned without any set date.
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The is no evidence of any action or inaction on Uhuru's part. They make no allegation against Uhuru obstructing justice. They have no evidence Uhuru has been objecting them.
Uhuru is clean.
JUdges asks about undue delay.
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Since 2013 the accused has had a specific duty under constitution of kenya to ensure that republic of kenya complies with international obligations.
Uhuru may bear NO PERSONAL responsibility but he bears OFFICIAL responsibility.
OTP tying themselves in a knot.
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Judges ask OTP if indefinite adjournment will not infringe on Uhuru's right to fair trial and the proceedings integrity...in light of the view that prosecution evidence is short.
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OTP: The basic building blocks of establishing case (the accused financial and organisation capacity) has been impeded then such interference will not bring proceedings to an end.
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In my view OTP arguments are very weak. The case can be terminated and restarted later on.
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OTP: They want the court to make a point against obstruction.
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Judge Anderson: Negro judges asking OTP to withdraw a charge and come back again later.
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Judge ask OTP why they can't withdraw charges.
OTP reply: This is the initial question asked and answered previously.
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only 2 options remain.
either
- Terminate or
- Refer to ASP
indefinite adjourment will not be granted.
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OTP; Saying something like that will be rewarding Uhuru; Consider the evidence available doesn't support the charge; OTP are not in that position. They know there is evidence out there in kenya; it might exonerate or incriminate; but GOK are blocking them.
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OTP: Repeat themselves....indefinite adjournment would be apt.
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The Negro judge sounds Bahamian. Is he from there?
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Anderson the negro judge: Ultimately it is balancing act. Does indefinite adjournment cures that. OTP resources and chambers engaged...could be better utilized....and if OTP withdraw like is done in domestic case....
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Mzungu Judge; Ask if six month won't bring any impact then how would indefinite adjourning make it any better.
OTP; Bla de bla...it still about state party refusing to cooperate.
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Brit in OTP; Now making faces...we do not know...and therefore the only realistic order we can make...is indefinite....seized when they will say enough is enough.
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Mzungu Judge; ASP does it have a role on this?
OTP: I would hope if am right on my assertion that there has been a failure on the part of gov that they can come to change of mind; i cannot speculate on what kind of ASP will have upon the intentions and actions of gov upon ASP intervention.
Damn i need to improve my typing speeds.
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Jap lady judge; Ask Uhuru's mzungu lawyer questions...lost track of them. Mostly on the role of Uhuru as head of state.
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Sorry the question is asked to fiery victim lawyer who sound canadian or american.
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Victim lawyer; Bluntly term the non-cooperation unlawful. In many juridisction Uhuru would be liable for investigation and prosecution for obstruction of justice.
Yesterday AG of kenya said 72hrs is all would be required to turn over telephone records.
The link is cut.
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We are back...Judges ask victims lawyer..you referred to canadian jurisprudence...expand on that .
Thank you....bla de bla.....list of adjournment...indefinitely adjourn due to unavailability...pending rwanda gov.
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Victims rep is more seized of how the African operates.
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Did 'victim lawyer' just argue justice will never be served as long as GoK is unco-operative and Uhuru remain Head of State?
That's a dangerous argument when you consider the possible solutions!
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Yes OTP sound deflated. This guy might just rescue them.
He is making case that current adjournment is not indefinite per see...but UNTIL GOK cooperate.
Victims rep is more seized of how the African operates.
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Arguments are arguments..evidence of Uhuru obstruction is the problem...there isn't any.
Did 'victim lawyer' just argue justice will never be served as long as GoK is unco-operative and Uhuru remain Head of State?
That's a dangerous arguement when you consider the possible solutions!
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Canadian victim lawyer: The failure by Uhuru to secure compliance takes away his right to expeditious trial.
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Canadian victim lawyer: This is unique case...Nixon case of supreme court....ordered Nixon to deliver evidence that could be implicating...Nixon watergate...forcing him to withdraw.
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Negro judge: Direct questions...one of possible option is to withdraw charges and restitute later...would such an action prejudice the rights of the victims.
Victim: GOk will dig in..it will become even harder. OTP may relax on the case. Adjourn until ASP has exhausted the cooperation mechanism.
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Jap Judge: Ask defence whether the undue delay takes away uhuru right to timely trial.
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Uhuru Brits lawyer: The Brit surprised by the correspondence btw GOK and AG. Say OTP might not have taken the data turned in from GOK seriously. It was quite alot. Judge ask him to forgo going through each one by one.
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Uhuru's lawyer Kay: Disagree that GOK has not cooperated. He also says Uhuru has no role neither has he interfered. The evidence reveal the head of state issues that is being brought to bear as an allegation doesn't manifest.
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Nobody is presenting evidence. Just a clear pattern of obstruction by GoK. Uhuru as head of state is not about to incriminate himself.
Balance that against victims right. Maybe that's why they want to refer it to ASP. Let them find a way to deal with rogue president.
Think Uhuru goose is cooked. Either he's president for life or Arrest Warrant the day he finishes 'kumi yangu'
Arguments are arguments..evidence of Uhuru obstruction is the problem...there isn't any.
Did 'victim lawyer' just argue justice will never be served as long as GoK is unco-operative and Uhuru remain Head of State?
That's a dangerous arguement when you consider the possible solutions!
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Okay...Kay had requested early last yr..permanent stay of proceedings...and now termination.
Now the debate is what difference btw those two remedies.
Kay...say the grounds are different.
OTP...says they stay of proceedings is the same as indefinite adjournment.
Victim..say stay of proceedings and current otp request are analogous.
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I think that Kay Stay request will return to haunt him
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Still on remedies. Does prosecution considers difference on remedies on conditional stay of proceedings vis indefinite adjournment.
Gumpert for OTP: That will depend on the condition. If it's GOK cooperation was the condition...then it would be no difference with sine die adjournment..but will the clear statement from the court..that it will the die the court is satisfied that is cooperation.
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Yes on matters law..he tied himself well. Now he'd hope this will be rejected on matters facts.
I think that Kay Stay request will return to haunt him
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Now he is asking for a ruling. The idea being to invoke double jeopardy. Its a waste of time.
Yes on matters law..he tied himself well. Now he'd hope this will be rejected on matters facts.
I think that Kay Stay request will return to haunt him
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Judge: Mr kay, You seek the final judgement. Do you seek a verdict of not guilty to be entered.
Kay: Uhuru's entitled to verdict because the first day of trial..bla de bla..sounds like political statement..they are entitled to a verdict of n guilty.
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Mr kay is asked for any legal grounds for asking for verdict. He says there are many case loads and jurisprudence esp in commonwealth.
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No trial has taken place. Not a single witness. A court can only enter a "verdict" upon trial and examination of evidence. I doubt that he can back up the application. At least one witness must have testified
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Mr kay is asked for any legal grounds for asking for verdict. He says there are many case loads and jurisprudence esp in commonwealth
I doubt that is relevant. He is fudging
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Negro judge: Yes common law in domestic cases...there is jurisprudence esp given DPPs are in charge but in ICC it quite different.
Kay: Say no; the process is the same.
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Mr kay: Say the trial chambers have oversight role on prosecution; you have the admission of the insufficiency of evidence from otp; you have issues on cooperation which will look at; in his view the case has failed; and if the prosecution doesn't terminate; you ought to terminate.
Negro Judge: OTP do not have full investigative powers..they relie on cooperation.
Mr Kay: They cannot hide behind a fig leaf of cooperation....that this is not our fault that we didn't get our evidence....
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Mr Kay: Whatever the structure...of OTP..the quality is what matters.
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Jap Judge; One small clarification from Mr Gaynor; you mention something [lost in japanase english]
Something on fillings.....provide ASP with big file of all these..so they might help my victims..please.
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Finally: It is over. Make written submission.
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There will be another session after lunch breaking to discuss god knows what.
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Asante bro Pundit. I was caught up in a meeting. Your posts brought me up to date haraka.
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Looks like it's boiling down to credibility of ICC
OTP and victims lawyer essentially admitted the case is not going anywhere. The evidence is out there somewhere. Victim lawyer comparison with Nixon was a killer given that Nixon was guilty as hell. And basically saying GoK and Uhuru as President is one thing. Biggest problem for Uhuru is money trail. Witnesses can vanish but money trail remain. OTP want to tie that down to phone records. They have the details but no evidence to back it up.
Kay on the other hand saying there isnt any evidence, 5 years or 10 years you won't find nada. We've given you all the files. Thought there was subtle reference to cooperation there re: DPORK trial is ongoing.
Perceptions. Without saying so, the judges understand GoK is uncooperative. OTP actually asked how to make them cooperate (AG has done Uhuru a turn here) and why proceed if that condition is not met?
If ICC kick the case out, the main reason will be GoK unco-operation. Politically I don'y see that happening or instead marking time until GoK and Uhuru are not synonymous. Re: Taylor.
Overall just a charade. Uhuru could have done a video link. When they have Blair or Bush in the dock, I'll sit up and listen
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Did anything happen in the afternoon.
I see the case being postponed for a limited period to allow OTP to explore other options including ASP of getting the required evidence.
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Did anything happen in the afternoon.
I see the case being postponed for a limited period to allow OTP to explore other options including ASP of getting the required evidence.
I agree.
Being president has now become the impediment to his freedom. Had he not been in control of the Kenya Government, he would be a free man.
Did Githu Muigai actually believe he could be a "friend" of the court in a case where he has announced that only the President can fire him? In a case where the court has determined that the GoK is not all that "friendly"? That man is an international joke.
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Omollo, I missed Prof Githu. Yes he is now a joke in icc corrindor. He need to hire lawyers to rep gov. Lawyers without conflict of interest. Same way the DPP hired Paul Muite to prosecute his friend Wambua of LSK.
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Did anything happen in the afternoon.
I see the case being postponed for a limited period to allow OTP to explore other options including ASP of getting the required evidence.
I agree.
Being president has now become the impediment to his freedom. Had he not been in control of the Kenya Government, he would be a free man.
Did Githu Muigai actually believe he could be a "friend" of the court in a case where he has announced that only the President can fire him? In a case where the court has determined that the GoK is not all that "friendly"? That man is an international joke.
Omollo,
That's debatable. One could argue that witnesses would be less intimidated if he were not President. Ultimately, for a guilty man, like kamwana, I think the Presidency provides a better lifeline.
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Omollo, I missed Prof Githu. Yes he is now a joke in icc corrindor. He need to hire lawyers to rep gov. Lawyers without conflict of interest. Same way the DPP hired Paul Muite to prosecute his friend Wambua of LSK.
I need to confirm. Somebody called me to say The Mortician had his application to be a "Friend" of the Court rejected. Aparantly these judges had read what Osuji had written about him and basically would have entertained "an Enemy of the Court" application slightly better. He again got hot water thrown in his face and the door firmly shut.
I hear Ole Lenku who banned Raila's welcome rally for a few hours before he was overruled, has appealed to Kenyans to descend on Jomo Kenyatta Airport to welcome Uhuru. Now is that not playing politics by a state officer constitutionally barred from such actions? Slowly Uhuru is watering down the constitution that he never believed in at all in the first place.