Nipate
Forum => Controversial => Topic started by: vooke on October 03, 2014, 12:30:06 AM
-
The primary emphasis of the cross is it save man from sin and reconcile him back to God.
Christians are not richer nor healthier than pagans nowhere in the world. Atheist Chinese and Japanese are the healthiest.
Giving to God as an investment vehicle is pure scam. It is unbiblical. Tithers are just as broke as non-tithers.TBN is a scam.
Read this verse;
1 Cor 15:19 (HCSB)
19 If we have put our hope in Christ for this life only, we should be pitied more than anyone.
'We' here refers to Christians. It underpins how a believer is almost always worse off in this world. Surely my hope in Christ is not the ticket out of misery
vooke, Kadame
The bible says seek ye first His kingdom and Righteousness and all these things will be given to you as well. God is the giver of all these material things. What's wrong in believing that, kwani are we meant to be beggars or something. We have Christian dollar billionares, how's that wicked?. If I give a thousand dollars to support family tv, I am serving God simply to keep God on the airwaves.
-
They are similar but Catholicism were more spiritual in that they was buying spiritual stuff
WHat is the difference between WOF and the Catholicism error of hawking sins? Apart from being hundreds of years apart, at least Catholics was spiritual, buying eternity, shorter stay in purgatory and so forth. WOF is selling pure carnality; mo money, promotion, business, better health
They are both wrong. What was your point? That Catholics are sinners too? :D You did not need to travel centuries for that. The difference, the church put a stop to it by condemning it. Have no idea how this new theology of evangelicals is going to be stopped, though. Maybe divine intervention. :)
-
WHat is the difference between WOF and the Catholicism error of hawking sins? Apart from being hundreds of years apart, at least Catholics was spiritual, buying eternity, shorter stay in purgatory and so forth. WOF is selling pure carnality; mo money, promotion, business, better health
If you are talking indulgences. I think those were individuals selling them. It was not church policy.
-
vooke, why you talking to yourself in the headline?? That's weird....
-
As for the topic "Is it wrong for Christians to be rich"? No one has claimed that the world, richness, or anything good is bad for Christians to have. It is the weird focuss on it by the prosperity crowd that is worrying. God is a father. Even the hair that is pulled off by my comb is a gift. I never paid him for it. Heck, I didnt even ask. He just gave it to me bila consulting me. I just don't see where we should associate giving away money to preachers with worldly prosperity? Even when we perform acts of charity for heavenly riches, it must be true love, which is selfless, or it is of little value. That's what Paul said. And he should know! What didnt he give up for love of Christ? His beloved religion, career, community, reputation, possession, and finally his own head. Yet he says even a love-less martyrdom (giving away my body to be burned) with the wrong intention is meaningless.
-
Read this verse;
1 Cor 15:19 (HCSB)
19 If we have put our hope in Christ for this life only, we should be pitied more than anyone
.
@vooke
You are misintepreting that verse.....I think where it says "for this life only"...it means if we base our hope in the current physical world only, then we should be pitied, because in christ we believe in the afterlife, or is it resurrection.......nothing about riches here.
And on what proof are you basing the claims that TBN is a scam? Are you then saying all those preachers who come there to spread the gospel are cons? It seems to me you have taken a stand on something and are looking for scriptures to support it however vague, ignoring all those that may be contary to your theory.......speaking as though you have some authority on the matter. Respect those who have gone before you. There is nothing wrong with giving especially if its for the purposes of spreading the gospel. TBN is the most worldwide reaching gopsel network and its costs money to run such a network. hiyo tuu.
@Kababe
When the bible says "give and it shall be given unto you", what does that mean? What are we giving, unto who?
-
Mya,
What are we giving? Everything. Our time, our talents, our possessions, the works, our joy, our kindness etc etc. To whom? To our neighbour. That means those God has put in our lives. Our immediate families, friends, neighbours, enemies :D etc etc. Funny thing, the "panda mbegu" crowd will never tell you to panda in the Hospital, the streets, the old people and childrens homes. Seems God only recognizes the seed that goes to that preacher who is promising you the cars/houses etc. :D Nor is the mbegu ever acts of kindness, always the pretty coin...
What I don't agree with is that God pangas his gifts to us according to the money we give. Who said we shall receive in kind, anyway? Jesus said not to place our treasures on this earth but in heaven where no thieves break in and steal. The point? When we only give to get, we are not giving out of love of another but out of love of ourselves. Give because Christ commands it, and you love Christ, want to please him. Give because it is good for the person you give. Just don't be giving as a way to regift yourself. The reason we get even more when we give is because God is goodness and goodness shares itself. You cant compete with goodness in being good, it will always beat you. But let that be God's gift, not our payment. When we are giving just to get, in a way we are treating it like some form of payment. God's generosity does not give us a licence to start issuing commands to him in the name of "faith". Shouldn't our faith be filial, like a child and his dad? Imagine a child who can't take a "No" from his father, isn't it a brat? That's how the prosperity folk sound to me. They believe they are entitled to God's gifts.
-
Mya, let us use Muslims because it always easy to see other people's specs than our own beam, that's just how we are, what can we do? :D Now, imagine a jihadist who blows himself up in order to get 72 fine virgins in heaven. What do you think motivates this individual? Is it love of God or love of the 72 virgins, or better yet, love of the little fella between his legs? Prosperity guys replace the muslim martrydom with the pretty coin/mbegu, and promise the carnal heaven here on earth. Yet the same mind set is at work.
-
@Kababe
Again it says "give and it shall be given unto you" I want to stress the last part "given unto you". That scripture tells us somewthing will be given back to you, it can be anything, Gods love , mercey, money et cetera. When it says "it shall be given unto you", mans inclination is then to expect something back.....notice that nowhere do I say in kind, but the bible teaches us to expect, infact there is a verse where God says "test me....." cant remember which one. Point is I have no problem with prosperity gospel if it accomplishes Gods work. Infact I think Africa as whole need more of that prosperity gospel and maybe we may just get out of the poverty cycle that plagues that continent. Faith after all comes from hearing....If you hear it long enough, believe in it, then you can be it, you can achieve it... These preachers arent forcing anyone to give, they are asking and are talking about tried and tested methods for them, you may not fully agree with them, but I wont dismiss them at face value. I am not talking about those cons in Kenya who are asking people to pay for miracles. I am talking about the Joel Osteen type of preachers, the Bishop jakes kind of preachers.....they know something we dont know, and its up to us to decide what we want to hear and want we dont want to hear.
-
@Kababe
Again it says "give and it shall be given unto you" I want to stress the last part "given unto you". That scripture tells us somewthing will be given back to you, it can be anything, Gods love , mercey, money et cetera. When it says "it shall be given unto you", mans inclination is then to expect something back.....notice that nowhere do I say in kind, but the bible teaches us to expect, infact there is a verse where God says "test me....." cant remember which one. Point is I have no problem with prosperity gospel if it accomplishes Gods work. Infact I think Africa as whole need more of that prosperity gospel and maybe we may just get out of the poverty cycle that plagues that continent. Faith after all comes from hearing....If you hear it long enough, believe in it, then you can be it, you can achieve it... These preachers arent forcing anyone to give, they are asking and are talking about tried and tested methods for them, you may not fully agree with them, but I wont dismiss them at face value. I am not talking about those cons in Kenya who are asking people to pay for miracles. I am talking about the Joel Osteen type of preachers, the Bishop jakes kind of preachers.....they know something we dont know, and its up to us to decide what we want to hear and want we dont want to hear.
If it does not say in "in kind", as you admit, then what gives these preachers the gall to tell people to expect a car, or a house, or money? I do like Joel Osteen and I've never heard him tell anybody that if he plants a seed aka money, a car and a house are on the way. In fact, the "seeds" he talks about are always acts of kindness to others, forgiveness, letting go of stuff we lose, trust in God etc etc. I have NEVER heard him ask for money from anyone. Not even once. And then promise that if you give him the money, your wildest dreams will come true. Joyce Meyer too. Never heard her dedicate even one single sermon to "planting a seed" in her church, She's always teaching about how to live your life as a Christian in every day life, the proper attitude to have, trust in God, not being focused on yourself but those around you etc etc I don't like African american preachers coz of all their dramatics/threatics so dont listen much to Bishop TD Jakes, but my mother does and I don't recall hearing him dedicate sermons to "planting a seed". But on TBN, they have this week for raising money, where all manner of preachers come on, kina Rod parsley and Jessee Duplantis and sijui who and they start seeing "messages" from Psalms about how people should send a certain sum of money (right now!) the Spirit says, and to claim your miracle. It is from this program and those preachers that Kenyans have learned and perfected the deal. Now those folk who used to go to mganga can do so in the comfort of the church.
-
Let me apologize. I think I hit split topic or someone else did. I don't like that function. I woke up convinced I had posted some reply only to miss them. I concluded I never posted the threads, sometimes I leave replies hanging...multitasking is not my forte
-
mya,
Paul was comparing a Christian vs a non-believer state in 'this world'. The non believer beats the believer hands down. It's that simple. Paul from this FACT, argues that there must be something more to Christianity than 'this world' otherwise it don't make sense being a Christian.
Remember the whole 15th chapter of First Corinthians is dedicated to resurrection. Paul was correcting a fatally erroneous notion that there is no resurrection. He is essentially asking, ' what's the purpose of Christianity if all we have is 'this world'[GIVEN YOU CLAIM THERE IS NO RESURRECTION, 'THIS WORLD' IS ALL WE HAVE] seeing we are actually worse off than than anybody else?'
Empirically, do Believers fare better health/wealth-wise? Look around you. If God meant Christians to be healthier and wealthier, it clearly is not working
As a preacher of the gospel, if I dangle this health &/ wealth carrot to non-believers,how do I retain them once these expectations are not met? They will be disillusioned and turn back. Note, I have nothing against health/wealth but I know too well this is not the primary nor secondary purpose for Christ dying for us. To suggest that they are is diluting the significance of the cross
TBN has done the most in propagating the Prosperity Myth. Ever watched their funds drive marathon?
Read this verse;
1 Cor 15:19 (HCSB)
19 If we have put our hope in Christ for this life only, we should be pitied more than anyone
.
@vooke
You are misintepreting that verse.....I think where it says "for this life only"...it means if we base our hope in the current physical world only, then we should be pitied, because in christ we believe in the afterlife, or is it resurrection.......nothing about riches here.
And on what proof are you basing the claims that TBN is a scam? Are you then saying all those preachers who come there to spread the gospel are cons? It seems to me you have taken a stand on something and are looking for scriptures to support it however vague, ignoring all those that may be contary to your theory.......speaking as though you have some authority on the matter. Respect those who have gone before you. There is nothing wrong with giving especially if its for the purposes of spreading the gospel. TBN is the most worldwide reaching gopsel network and its costs money to run such a network. hiyo tuu.
@Kababe
When the bible says "give and it shall be given unto you", what does that mean? What are we giving, unto who?
-
Matthew 9:29 says:
29 Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith let it be done to you”;
Jesus tell us here that he will bless us as much as we want. His blessing depends on the size of our faith. Jesus says, “According to your faith let it be done to you” .
That's the same way you should teach the non believers. God says choose your cup, and he’ll fill it. Whether you have a little teacup, a five-gallon jug, or a 100-gallon barrel of faith, God will fill it up according to your faith.
How much you trust God determines how much God blesses you.
Why are teaching the word of God with doubts pastor?
mya,
Paul was comparing a Christian vs a non-believer state in 'this world'. The non believer beats the believer hands down. It's that simple. Paul from this FACT, argues that there must be something more to Christianity than 'this world' otherwise it don't make sense being a Christian.
Remember the whole 15th chapter of First Corinthians is dedicated to resurrection. Paul was correcting a fatally erroneous notion that there is no resurrection. He is essentially asking, ' what's the purpose of Christianity if all we have is 'this world'[GIVEN YOU CLAIM THERE IS NO RESURRECTION, 'THIS WORLD' IS ALL WE HAVE] seeing we are actually worse off than than anybody else?'
Empirically, do Believers fare better health/wealth-wise? Look around you. If God meant Christians to be healthier and wealthier, it clearly is not working
As a preacher of the gospel, if I dangle this health &/ wealth carrot to non-believers,how do I retain them once these expectations are not met? They will be disillusioned and turn back. Note, I have nothing against health/wealth but I know too well this is not the primary nor secondary purpose for Christ dying for us. To suggest that they are is diluting the significance of the cross
TBN has done the most in propagating the Prosperity Myth. Ever watched their funds drive marathon?
Read this verse;
1 Cor 15:19 (HCSB)
19 If we have put our hope in Christ for this life only, we should be pitied more than anyone
.
@vooke
You are misintepreting that verse.....I think where it says "for this life only"...it means if we base our hope in the current physical world only, then we should be pitied, because in christ we believe in the afterlife, or is it resurrection.......nothing about riches here.
And on what proof are you basing the claims that TBN is a scam? Are you then saying all those preachers who come there to spread the gospel are cons? It seems to me you have taken a stand on something and are looking for scriptures to support it however vague, ignoring all those that may be contary to your theory.......speaking as though you have some authority on the matter. Respect those who have gone before you. There is nothing wrong with giving especially if its for the purposes of spreading the gospel. TBN is the most worldwide reaching gopsel network and its costs money to run such a network. hiyo tuu.
@Kababe
When the bible says "give and it shall be given unto you", what does that mean? What are we giving, unto who?
-
Kadame, vooke
Below are confessions by Joyce Meyer. I pray and hope that this is going to be an eye opener for you.
Joyce shares a list of confessions that remind herself of God's love and power. This have downloaded from link http://www.joycemeyer.org/articles/ea.aspx?article=list_of_confessions_by_joyce_meyer (http://www.joycemeyer.org/articles/ea.aspx?article=list_of_confessions_by_joyce_meyer)
I love all people, and I am loved by all people.
I prosper in everything I put my hand to. I have prosperity in all areas of my life – spiritually, financially, mentally, and socially.
All my children have lots of Christian friends, and God has set aside a Christian wife or husband for each of them.
All my household are blessed in their deeds: we’re blessed when we come in and when we go out.
I take good care of my body. I eat right, I look good, I feel good, and I weigh what God wants me to weigh.
I operate in all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, which are tongues and interpretation of tongues, the working of miracles, discerning of spirits, the word of faith, the word of knowledge, the word of wisdom, healings, and prophecy.
I know God’s voice, and I always obey what He tells me.
The love of God has been shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Ghost.
I do all my work excellently and with great prudence – making the most of all of my time.
I am creative because the Holy Spirit lives in me.
I love to pray. I love to praise and worship God.
I am purposed that my mouth shall not transgress. I will speak forth the righteousness of God all the day long.
I have humbled myself, and God has exalted me.
I am a giver. It is more blessed to give than to receive. I love to give! I have plenty of money to give away all the time.
I cast all my care on the Lord for He cares for me.
I don’t give the devil a foothold in my life. I resist the devil, and he has to flee from me.
I don’t have a spirit of fear, but of power and love and a sound mind.
I am not afraid of the faces of man. I am not afraid of the anger of man.
I am a new creature in Christ: old things have passed away, behold, all things are new.
I have died and have been raised with Christ and am now seated in heavenly places.
I am dead to sin and alive unto righteousness.
I am a doer of the Word. I meditate on the Word all the day long.
I am not passive about anything, but I deal with all things in my life immediately.
I do not judge my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus after the flesh. I am a spiritual man and am judged by no one.
I take every thought captive unto the obedience of Jesus Christ, casting down every imagination, and every high and lofty thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God.
I am a responsible person. I enjoy responsibility, and I rise to every responsibility in Jesus.
I have been set free. I am free to love, to worship, to trust with no fear of rejection or of being hurt.
I have compassion and understanding for all people.
I catch the devil in all of his deceitful lies. I cast them down and choose rather to believe the Word of God.
I am anointed of God for ministry. Hallelujah!
Work is good. I enjoy work. Glory!
I have a teachable spirit.
I do not think more highly of myself than I ought to in the flesh.
Pain cannot successfully come against my body because Jesus bore all my pain.
I am a teacher of the Word.
I lay hands on the sick, and they recover.
I do what I say I will do, and I get where I am going on time.
I don’t hurry and rush; I do one thing at a time.
God opens my mouth, and no man can shut it. God shuts my mouth, and no man can open it.
The law of kindness is in my tongue. Gentleness is in my touch. Mercy and compassion is in my hearing.
As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he; therefore, all of my thoughts are positive.
I do not allow the devil to use my spirit as a garbage dump by meditating on negative things that he offers me.
I am a believer not a doubter.
No weapon that is formed against me shall prosper, but every tongue that rises against me in judgment, I shall show to be in the wrong.
I am slow to speak, quick to hear, and slow to anger.
I cast out devils and demons; nothing deadly can hurt me.
I never bind a sister or brother with the words of my mouth.
I am always a positive encouragement. I edify and build up; I never tear down or destroy.
I will cry to God Most High Who performs on my behalf and rewards me.
My son has a sweet personality, and he is not rebellious.
I don’t speak negative things.
My children love to pray and study the Word. They openly and boldly praise God.
My children make right choices according to the Word of God.
I am an obedient wife, and no rebellion operates in me.
My husband is wise. He is the king and priest of our home. He makes Godly decisions.
I use my time wisely. All of my prayer and study time is wisely spent.
I walk in the spirit all of the time.
All that I own is paid for. I owe no man anything except to love him in Christ.
I love to bless people and spread the Gospel.
I am an intercessor.
I receive speaking engagements in person, by phone, and/or by mail every day.
My daughter operates in Godly wisdom and discipline, and she is full of energy.
I never get tired or grow weary when I study the Word, pray, minister, or praise God; but I am alert and full of energy. And as I study, I become more alert and more energized.
I will study the Word of God. I will pray.
I do not hate or walk in unforgiveness.
I do not fear. I am not guilty.
@Kababe
Again it says "give and it shall be given unto you" I want to stress the last part "given unto you". That scripture tells us somewthing will be given back to you, it can be anything, Gods love , mercey, money et cetera. When it says "it shall be given unto you", mans inclination is then to expect something back.....notice that nowhere do I say in kind, but the bible teaches us to expect, infact there is a verse where God says "test me....." cant remember which one. Point is I have no problem with prosperity gospel if it accomplishes Gods work. Infact I think Africa as whole need more of that prosperity gospel and maybe we may just get out of the poverty cycle that plagues that continent. Faith after all comes from hearing....If you hear it long enough, believe in it, then you can be it, you can achieve it... These preachers arent forcing anyone to give, they are asking and are talking about tried and tested methods for them, you may not fully agree with them, but I wont dismiss them at face value. I am not talking about those cons in Kenya who are asking people to pay for miracles. I am talking about the Joel Osteen type of preachers, the Bishop jakes kind of preachers.....they know something we dont know, and its up to us to decide what we want to hear and want we dont want to hear.
If it does not say in "in kind", as you admit, then what gives these preachers the gall to tell people to expect a car, or a house, or money? I do like Joel Osteen and I've never heard him tell anybody that if he plants a seed aka money, a car and a house are on the way. In fact, the "seeds" he talks about are always acts of kindness to others, forgiveness, letting go of stuff we lose, trust in God etc etc. I have NEVER heard him ask for money from anyone. Not even once. And then promise that if you give him the money, your wildest dreams will come true. Joyce Meyer too. Never heard her dedicate even one single sermon to "planting a seed" in her church, She's always teaching about how to live your life as a Christian in every day life, the proper attitude to have, trust in God, not being focused on yourself but those around you etc etc I don't like African american preachers coz of all their dramatics/threatics so dont listen much to Bishop TD Jakes, but my mother does and I don't recall hearing him dedicate sermons to "planting a seed". But on TBN, they have this week for raising money, where all manner of preachers come on, kina Rod parsley and Jessee Duplantis and sijui who and they start seeing "messages" from Psalms about how people should send a certain sum of money (right now!) the Spirit says, and to claim your miracle. It is from this program and those preachers that Kenyans have learned and perfected the deal. Now those folk who used to go to mganga can do so in the comfort of the church.
-
bittertruth,
Do you know Jesus resurrected a 4 days dead Lazarus in the midst of doubt from the relatives,neighbors and even disciples?
Where did you get the idea that you armed with scriptures and faith are a demigod?
God works,heals and blesses whoever, whenever and wherever He wills.
Is there health and wealth outside Christianity?
Matthew 5:45 King James Version (KJV)
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Matthew 9:29 says:
29 Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith let it be done to you”;
Jesus tell us here that he will bless us as much as we want. His blessing depends on the size of our faith. Jesus says, “According to your faith let it be done to you” .
That's the same way you should teach the non believers. God says choose your cup, and he’ll fill it. Whether you have a little teacup, a five-gallon jug, or a 100-gallon barrel of faith, God will fill it up according to your faith.
How much you trust God determines how much God blesses you.
Why are teaching the word of God with doubts pastor?
-
vooke,
Having health and wealth or lack thereof depends on size of your faith.
The question should rather be "Is there wealth and health in Christianity" and the answer would be Yes, because everyone receives based on their faith.
I believe that what I confess, I possess
I confess, my God shall supply all my need Phil. 4: 19; I possess the supply of every need.
I confess, by His stripes I am healed Is. 53:5; I possess healing.
bittertruth,
Do you know Jesus resurrected a 4 days dead Lazarus in the midst of doubt from the relatives,neighbors and even disciples?
Where did you get the idea that you armed with scriptures and faith are a demigod?
God works,heals and blesses whoever, whenever and wherever He wills.
Is there health and wealth outside Christianity?
Matthew 5:45 King James Version (KJV)
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Matthew 9:29 says:
29 Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith let it be done to you”;
Jesus tell us here that he will bless us as much as we want. His blessing depends on the size of our faith. Jesus says, “According to your faith let it be done to you” .
That's the same way you should teach the non believers. God says choose your cup, and he’ll fill it. Whether you have a little teacup, a five-gallon jug, or a 100-gallon barrel of faith, God will fill it up according to your faith.
How much you trust God determines how much God blesses you.
Why are teaching the word of God with doubts pastor?
-
bittertruth,
The primitive Christians suffered immense poverty and as a result, Paul collected offerings for the saints in Jerusalem virtually from all the places he toured. You are implying
1. That they had less faith than say yourself
2.That Paul correctly diagnosed their problem; poverty but prescribed charity INSTEAD of faith
Negro you are either ignorant or full of yourself by insinuating that poor & sickly Christians are faithless
vooke,
Having health and wealth or lack thereof depends on size of your faith.
The question should rather be "Is there wealth and health in Christianity" and the answer would be Yes, because everyone receives based on their faith.
I believe that what I confess, I possess
I confess, my God shall supply all my need Phil. 4: 19; I possess the supply of every need.
I confess, by His stripes I am healed Is. 53:5; I possess healing.
-
As a preacher of the gospel, if I dangle this health &/ wealth carrot to non-believers,how do I retain them once these expectations are not met? They will be disillusioned and turn back.
@vooke
Bitter Truth has already addressed this bit and true to form you try to flip it around referring him to a demigod. As a preacher your first priority shouldnt be dangling health/wealth carrot to your congregation....but if you do and it backfires, you only have yourself to blame. And who told you that you were the keeper of Gods children...all you have to do is spread the gospel, and let God do his job.
That verse "seek you first the kingdom of God, and his rightouseness and ALL THESE THINGS shall be addedd unto you." What exactly does ALL THESE THINGS" include pastor? Propserity and gospel are not mutually exclusive..... encouraging believers to have faith that the desires of ther hearts will be fullfilled. Why are you so doubtful. I have been around church my whole life, and growing up I always wondered why the believers...at least most of them where wallowing in poverty? Its like most had accepted that that was how their fate in this life was supposed to be....well, now I know the devil is a liar......you can be a christian and have health, wealth and "ALL THESE THINGS."
As for TBN, fund driving is not all they do, they also have reached a lot of people world wide who would otherwise not have any access to the gospel, so you can choose to just look at the negative.
-
By rich I suppose you mean worldly riches (financial wealth and property). Obviously its not a sin. However, Jesus was not a rich man. Worldly riches if not ill-gotten can facilitate ministry. However it may be as difficult as a camel going through the eye of the needle.
I'm personally opposed to the prosperity gospel. It nullifies the spiritual education believers get from suffering. In my short life so far, I can testify that poorer people listen to God more than the rich.
I Tim6
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.
-
mya88,
Looks like the Primitive/Early church missed this memo on 'ALL THESE THINGS', they were mighty poor.
Romans 15:26 (ESV)
am going to Jerusalem bringing aid to the saints. 26 For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make some contribution for the poor among the saints at Jerusalem.
Galatians 2:10 (ESV)
10 Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.
Nobody said wealth and gospel are mutually exclusive, I just don't or can't see promotion of health/wealth as a primary,secondary or even tertiary consequence of the gospel of our Lord Jesus. What we have on these topics are common sense principles such as hardwork, creativity, education,honesty and so forth
What is undeniable is,Christians at no point in time have NEVER fared better than non-Christians anywhere exclusively as a result of their faith. They fall sick even today, they are equally likely to be broke
-
vooke,
Generally, believers live longer, happier and healthier lives and even have better career prospects. Going to church and praying has huge benefits.
I think Church goers generally are much more conservative and tend to restrain themselves when it comes to problem causing areas of modern society.
There is a willingness to put the brakes on long before problems develop that are associated with vices like drunkenness for example, medical problems such liver diseases and the brain, or serious road injuries caused by driving while drunk, not to forget drugs, AIDS, gambling, cigarette-related cancers, and such, because these are lifestyles that most churchgoers try to avoid.
Faith in God seems to add an ingredient to life that brings hope and a positive attitude towards the future.
I have known many folks who have found God later in their lives. Nearly all have expressed how their new found faith changed them for the better resulting in far happier and healthier lives than before.
What is undeniable is,Christians at no point in time have NEVER fared better than non-Christians anywhere exclusively as a result of their faith. They fall sick even today, they are equally likely to be broke
-
This Joyce Meyer, does she drive or get driven around in a popemobil? She already has her reward.
Kadame, vooke
Below are confessions by Joyce Meyer. I pray and hope that this is going to be an eye opener for you.
Joyce shares a list of confessions that remind herself of God's love and power. This have downloaded from link http://www.joycemeyer.org/articles/ea.aspx?article=list_of_confessions_by_joyce_meyer (http://www.joycemeyer.org/articles/ea.aspx?article=list_of_confessions_by_joyce_meyer)
I love all people, and I am loved by all people.
I prosper in everything I put my hand to. I have prosperity in all areas of my life – spiritually, financially, mentally, and socially.
All my children have lots of Christian friends, and God has set aside a Christian wife or husband for each of them.
All my household are blessed in their deeds: we’re blessed when we come in and when we go out.
I take good care of my body. I eat right, I look good, I feel good, and I weigh what God wants me to weigh.
I operate in all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, which are tongues and interpretation of tongues, the working of miracles, discerning of spirits, the word of faith, the word of knowledge, the word of wisdom, healings, and prophecy.
I know God’s voice, and I always obey what He tells me.
The love of God has been shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Ghost.
I do all my work excellently and with great prudence – making the most of all of my time.
I am creative because the Holy Spirit lives in me.
I love to pray. I love to praise and worship God.
I am purposed that my mouth shall not transgress. I will speak forth the righteousness of God all the day long.
I have humbled myself, and God has exalted me.
I am a giver. It is more blessed to give than to receive. I love to give! I have plenty of money to give away all the time.
I cast all my care on the Lord for He cares for me.
I don’t give the devil a foothold in my life. I resist the devil, and he has to flee from me.
I don’t have a spirit of fear, but of power and love and a sound mind.
I am not afraid of the faces of man. I am not afraid of the anger of man.
I am a new creature in Christ: old things have passed away, behold, all things are new.
I have died and have been raised with Christ and am now seated in heavenly places.
I am dead to sin and alive unto righteousness.
I am a doer of the Word. I meditate on the Word all the day long.
I am not passive about anything, but I deal with all things in my life immediately.
I do not judge my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus after the flesh. I am a spiritual man and am judged by no one.
I take every thought captive unto the obedience of Jesus Christ, casting down every imagination, and every high and lofty thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God.
I am a responsible person. I enjoy responsibility, and I rise to every responsibility in Jesus.
I have been set free. I am free to love, to worship, to trust with no fear of rejection or of being hurt.
I have compassion and understanding for all people.
I catch the devil in all of his deceitful lies. I cast them down and choose rather to believe the Word of God.
I am anointed of God for ministry. Hallelujah!
Work is good. I enjoy work. Glory!
I have a teachable spirit.
I do not think more highly of myself than I ought to in the flesh.
Pain cannot successfully come against my body because Jesus bore all my pain.
I am a teacher of the Word.
I lay hands on the sick, and they recover.
I do what I say I will do, and I get where I am going on time.
I don’t hurry and rush; I do one thing at a time.
God opens my mouth, and no man can shut it. God shuts my mouth, and no man can open it.
The law of kindness is in my tongue. Gentleness is in my touch. Mercy and compassion is in my hearing.
As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he; therefore, all of my thoughts are positive.
I do not allow the devil to use my spirit as a garbage dump by meditating on negative things that he offers me.
I am a believer not a doubter.
No weapon that is formed against me shall prosper, but every tongue that rises against me in judgment, I shall show to be in the wrong.
I am slow to speak, quick to hear, and slow to anger.
I cast out devils and demons; nothing deadly can hurt me.
I never bind a sister or brother with the words of my mouth.
I am always a positive encouragement. I edify and build up; I never tear down or destroy.
I will cry to God Most High Who performs on my behalf and rewards me.
My son has a sweet personality, and he is not rebellious.
I don’t speak negative things.
My children love to pray and study the Word. They openly and boldly praise God.
My children make right choices according to the Word of God.
I am an obedient wife, and no rebellion operates in me.
My husband is wise. He is the king and priest of our home. He makes Godly decisions.
I use my time wisely. All of my prayer and study time is wisely spent.
I walk in the spirit all of the time.
All that I own is paid for. I owe no man anything except to love him in Christ.
I love to bless people and spread the Gospel.
I am an intercessor.
I receive speaking engagements in person, by phone, and/or by mail every day.
My daughter operates in Godly wisdom and discipline, and she is full of energy.
I never get tired or grow weary when I study the Word, pray, minister, or praise God; but I am alert and full of energy. And as I study, I become more alert and more energized.
I will study the Word of God. I will pray.
I do not hate or walk in unforgiveness.
I do not fear. I am not guilty.
@Kababe
Again it says "give and it shall be given unto you" I want to stress the last part "given unto you". That scripture tells us somewthing will be given back to you, it can be anything, Gods love , mercey, money et cetera. When it says "it shall be given unto you", mans inclination is then to expect something back.....notice that nowhere do I say in kind, but the bible teaches us to expect, infact there is a verse where God says "test me....." cant remember which one. Point is I have no problem with prosperity gospel if it accomplishes Gods work. Infact I think Africa as whole need more of that prosperity gospel and maybe we may just get out of the poverty cycle that plagues that continent. Faith after all comes from hearing....If you hear it long enough, believe in it, then you can be it, you can achieve it... These preachers arent forcing anyone to give, they are asking and are talking about tried and tested methods for them, you may not fully agree with them, but I wont dismiss them at face value. I am not talking about those cons in Kenya who are asking people to pay for miracles. I am talking about the Joel Osteen type of preachers, the Bishop jakes kind of preachers.....they know something we dont know, and its up to us to decide what we want to hear and want we dont want to hear.
If it does not say in "in kind", as you admit, then what gives these preachers the gall to tell people to expect a car, or a house, or money? I do like Joel Osteen and I've never heard him tell anybody that if he plants a seed aka money, a car and a house are on the way. In fact, the "seeds" he talks about are always acts of kindness to others, forgiveness, letting go of stuff we lose, trust in God etc etc. I have NEVER heard him ask for money from anyone. Not even once. And then promise that if you give him the money, your wildest dreams will come true. Joyce Meyer too. Never heard her dedicate even one single sermon to "planting a seed" in her church, She's always teaching about how to live your life as a Christian in every day life, the proper attitude to have, trust in God, not being focused on yourself but those around you etc etc I don't like African american preachers coz of all their dramatics/threatics so dont listen much to Bishop TD Jakes, but my mother does and I don't recall hearing him dedicate sermons to "planting a seed". But on TBN, they have this week for raising money, where all manner of preachers come on, kina Rod parsley and Jessee Duplantis and sijui who and they start seeing "messages" from Psalms about how people should send a certain sum of money (right now!) the Spirit says, and to claim your miracle. It is from this program and those preachers that Kenyans have learned and perfected the deal. Now those folk who used to go to mganga can do so in the comfort of the church.
-
As a preacher of the gospel, if I dangle this health &/ wealth carrot to non-believers,how do I retain them once these expectations are not met? They will be disillusioned and turn back.
@vooke
Bitter Truth has already addressed this bit and true to form you try to flip it around referring him to a demigod. As a preacher your first priority shouldnt be dangling health/wealth carrot to your congregation....but if you do and it backfires, you only have yourself to blame. And who told you that you were the keeper of Gods children...all you have to do is spread the gospel, and let God do his job.
That verse "seek you first the kingdom of God, and his rightouseness and ALL THESE THINGS shall be addedd unto you." What exactly does ALL THESE THINGS" include pastor? Propserity and gospel are not mutually exclusive..... encouraging believers to have faith that the desires of ther hearts will be fullfilled. Why are you so doubtful. I have been around church my whole life, and growing up I always wondered why the believers...at least most of them where wallowing in poverty? Its like most had accepted that that was how their fate in this life was supposed to be....well, now I know the devil is a liar......you can be a christian and have health, wealth and "ALL THESE THINGS."
As for TBN, fund driving is not all they do, they also have reached a lot of people world wide who would otherwise not have any access to the gospel, so you can choose to just look at the negative.
Sorry, but you people are mixing up the issues in order to confuse the point vooke is making.
First of all, when Jesus said, "all these things will be added unto to you", did he give a time line? When did chritians decide that the Lord's promised rewards was always a matter of this present life? Doesn't anyone believe in the resurrection any more? The new creation? God delivers, and yes, sometimes in this life, but who says ALWAYS??
Secondly, Bittertruth is basically claiming that you will be as wealthy as the size of your faith....or the cup you choose.
I dare anyone here, Bittertruth, Mya88 or anybody else, to show me which one amongst youreselves or any preacher on TV has enough faith to give up his wealth, security, career, community, freedom, and finally your own lives? This is exactly the sacrifice Christians made in the early church, all the way from the Apostles to the commonest Christian. Which one of the Apostles was a rich man?? So now, we are supposed to believe that Paul, Peter, John, James and the rest needed lessons from Bittertruth, TDJakes, Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen or TBN? If only they new the secret of faith, they would have been wealthy! So the (false) teaching goes.
Yet Peter said to the lame man "Silver and gold have I none, but such as I have, I give thee.". Peter's shadow healed illnesses. Touching a handkerchief that had touched Paul's body healed. Yet both men were poor. And they were eventually imprisoned and executed--Who is poorer than a prisoner on death-row?? Only those dying of famine or the wounded on battle-fields. Where was this prosperity Gospel to teach them that if they had the faith of these clever faith-filled 21st century Christians not only would they have escaped the misfortune of imprisonment and execution, they would have also been wealthy!
Not just that, why did Jesus live for 33 years of his life as a poor man, first a fundi--a carpenter--then a preacher who "had nowhere to lay his head"? If this is the message he wanted to teach, should he not have blessed his parents, Mary and Joseph, and made them the wealthiest couple in Judea? Why were they poor? Didn't they have a big "cup" of faith, when they believed the angel? Why was John the Baptist not the wealthiest man in Judea? Apparently, this message was lost on all these people. If only they bought the right books from the 21st century, they would have known God fills the cup you choose and would've got a big cup like prosperity teachers and then they would have all been wealthy???
Naah!
-
bittertruth,
Do you know Jesus resurrected a 4 days dead Lazarus in the midst of doubt from the relatives,neighbors and even disciples?
Where did you get the idea that you armed with scriptures and faith are a demigod?
God works,heals and blesses whoever, whenever and wherever He wills.
Is there health and wealth outside Christianity?
Matthew 5:45 King James Version (KJV)
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Indeed. We should expect unbelievers to be poorer than Christians if this "law" of faith and wealth is true, and in fact, atheists in particular should be starving and living from hand to mouth in each successive moment, seeing as they have zero faith in God, let alone Jesus Christ. Looking at the various lists of wealthiest people on earth, I bet there are far fewer practicing Christians on any of those lists than are secularists or merely cultural members of whatever religious tradition.
-
Kadame,
Poverty is not piety and wealth is not wickedness.
You can propagate your Poverty Gospel.
The poverty Gospel does nothing to put food in the mouths of hungry children. It just says, Be content in your suffering. Know that God is with you in your suffering.
But the Prosperity Gospel provides the resources to be able to help others.
As a preacher of the gospel, if I dangle this health &/ wealth carrot to non-believers,how do I retain them once these expectations are not met? They will be disillusioned and turn back.
@vooke
Bitter Truth has already addressed this bit and true to form you try to flip it around referring him to a demigod. As a preacher your first priority shouldnt be dangling health/wealth carrot to your congregation....but if you do and it backfires, you only have yourself to blame. And who told you that you were the keeper of Gods children...all you have to do is spread the gospel, and let God do his job.
That verse "seek you first the kingdom of God, and his rightouseness and ALL THESE THINGS shall be addedd unto you." What exactly does ALL THESE THINGS" include pastor? Propserity and gospel are not mutually exclusive..... encouraging believers to have faith that the desires of ther hearts will be fullfilled. Why are you so doubtful. I have been around church my whole life, and growing up I always wondered why the believers...at least most of them where wallowing in poverty? Its like most had accepted that that was how their fate in this life was supposed to be....well, now I know the devil is a liar......you can be a christian and have health, wealth and "ALL THESE THINGS."
As for TBN, fund driving is not all they do, they also have reached a lot of people world wide who would otherwise not have any access to the gospel, so you can choose to just look at the negative.
Sorry, but you people are mixing up the issues in order to confuse the point vooke is making.
First of all, when Jesus said, "all these things will be added unto to you", did he give a time line? When did chritians decide that the Lord's promised rewards was always a matter of this present life? Doesn't anyone believe in the resurrection any more? The new creation? God delivers, and yes, sometimes in this life, but who says ALWAYS??
Secondly, Bittertruth is basically claiming that you will be as wealthy as the size of your faith....or the cup you choose.
I dare anyone here, Bittertruth, Mya88 or anybody else, to show me which one amongst youreselves or any preacher on TV has enough faith to give up his wealth, security, career, community, freedom, and finally your own lives? This is exactly the sacrifice Christians made in the early church, all the way from the Apostles to the commonest Christian. Which one of the Apostles was a rich man?? So now, we are supposed to believe that Paul, Peter, John, James and the rest needed lessons from Bittertruth, TDJakes, Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen or TBN? If only they new the secret of faith, they would have been wealthy! So the (false) teaching goes.
Yet Peter said to the lame man "Silver and gold have I none, but such as I have, I give thee.". Peter's shadow healed illnesses. Touching a handkerchief that had touched Paul's body healed. Yet both men were poor. And they were eventually imprisoned and executed--Who is poorer than a prisoner on death-row?? Only those dying of famine or the wounded on battle-fields. Where was this prosperity Gospel to teach them that if they had the faith of these clever faith-filled 21st century Christians not only would they have escaped the misfortune of imprisonment and execution, they would have also been wealthy!
Not just that, why did Jesus live for 33 years of his life as a poor man, first a fundi--a carpenter--then a preacher who "had nowhere to lay his head"? If this is the message he wanted to teach, should he not have blessed his parents, Mary and Joseph, and made them the wealthiest couple in Judea? Why were they poor? Didn't they have a big "cup" of faith, when they believed the angel? Why was John the Baptist not the wealthiest man in Judea? Apparently, this message was lost on all these people. If only they bought the right books from the 21st century, they would have known God fills the cup you choose and would've got a big cup like prosperity teachers and then they would have all been wealthy???
Naah!
-
Kadame,
Poverty is not piety and wealth is not wickedness.
You can propagate your Poverty Gospel.
The poverty Gospel does nothing to put food in the mouths of hungry children. It just says, Be content in your suffering. Know that God is with you in your suffering.
But the Prosperity Gospel provides the resources to be able to help others.
Bittertruth, stop obfuscating issues. I don't know a poverty Gospel except the one preached by Jesus "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" Or where he asked his followers to leave everything and follow him.
Your position depends on telling people they have only two choices:either they believe the false prosperity Gospel or a false poverty Gospel. But they don't have to do any of that. They can just do the best with what they have, what God has given them, and ask God for anything and everything they need. Who said God likes laziness or for us to bury our talents?
If you think this is a "poverty Gospel", go ahead, but it is in line with what the New Testament teaches in word and example of Jesus, Apostles and the early church. Who cares for a gospel that gives wealth if it is not from these sources, anyway? Wealth is not everything.
Moreover, those I know of who do the most for the poor are not rich either, so much for the "its for the poor" angle. Is God so weak as to be unable to provide for charities that we have to invent a false teaching to feed the poor? To feed the poor, only thing required is generosity. If even half the people were only a little more generous, they would be able to feed all the children in the world.
-
The reason I have called it poverty gospel is because you seem inclined to the idea that poverty is piety and wealth is wickedness.
That's weird
-
The reason I have called it poverty gospel is because you seem inclined to the idea that poverty is piety and wealth is wickedness.
That's weird
Where did you get this idea? Please point out the post. Otherwise, its obfuscation.
Regarding poverty as piety, that's also not true. Simply "lacking" is no more pious than simply "having", or simply being tall, or short, or healthy or sick. These are facts of life, and most of the time, there is little choice in the matter. Where you are born, which opportunities you get in life, which kind of body you get and its weakness, etc etc. God never consults us before he decides to plant us in certain situations. Those babies dying of AIDS because their mothers had HIV when they gave birth to them or breastfed them, they never got to decide which womb to show up in. Those Turkansa who were dying of famine barely 2 years ago, they never chose to be born into a culture that is dependant on rains etc etc. If they were consulted, probably they would have opted to be born as Bill Gates' or Oprah's kid or something.
Piety has to do with choices we make, not conditions we find ourselves in. If that rich young man had done as Christ requested, sold all his property, given it to the poor and followed Christ, pretty much what Paul did, that would have been pious. And more than that, it would have been an act of faith in Jesus who provides for everything, and an act of love for Jesus, whom he would've thereby loved more than his wealth. Who knows? Perhaps he would've been one of the Apostles. Piety is when we willingly give up what we do have, which no one is too poor to do. Everyone, even a chokora, can give up something for the sake of another person. It's not a preserve of rich people who believe in the prosperity message.
Moreover, piety can also consist in accepting your condition. This does not mean that you do not work to improve it with what you have, or that you fail to trust in God for your provisions, but that you know that not having what you want doesn't mean the end of the world. It doesn't even mean lack of faith in God. God is the point, not his gifts. And you love him for his own sake, not for what goodies he gives you. Consider Job. God allowed him to become poor and thereby prove that it was God he loved and worshipped, not the gifts God had given him. My point is that God tries everyone who loves and believes in him. In fact God says, "those whom I love, I chastise". What does this mean? It's the language of a father. A father gives freely to his children. But sometimes, he deliberately withholds some things from them too. You read in Paul's letters that he suffered from a certain thorn in the flesh, and asked God to take it away. God told him "My grace is sufficient for you". That means that God sometimes deliberately permits us to go through hard times, probably to wean us from all sorts of false gods and attachments we have in things that we may not realize we worship. Whenever I lose things, property, opportunity, even friends, looking back later on, I realize I had almost made them small gods in my life. Isnt it good if God then takes them away from me, for my own sake? Moreover, when God takes something away, or allows something to be lost, he always replaces it with something better. So our attitude should be patience, faith and trust. Point is, there's our plan and then there's God's plan. Faith means believing in God's plan when it doesn't seem to coincide with ours.
The prosperity message would make Christians believe that when such trying times occur, its because they are weak in faith. Yet, sometimes God permits it to mature us spiritually. Sometimes God readily removes these experiences in a single prayer, sometimes he keeps us safe from even experiencing them in the first place, unbeknownst to us etc etc. My problem with prosperity preachers is presenting a half-truth, instead of the whole spectrum of Christian experiences in this world. Do you know that Jesus PROMISED that his followers would suffer? And he BLESSED them for it in advance? What was he talking about, then, if wealth and good things are a guarantee to Christians at all times, depending only on whether they have faith or not? Surely that message is only half-true. That's why it smells so bad from a distance. Even non-believers can tell it is bunk. It's as if God is not God and he is required to respond to us the way WE want/think, and not the way HE wills.
-
I agree with you that ours is a false gospel.
Its false because it doesn't believe in purgatory
Its false because it doesn't believe in worshipping images of crucifix, saints, angels etc
ours is false because we don't hawk sins.
Hayo tu
-
Mention of piety reminds me of Pius. A man who was in boarding school in Ibadan with one of my good buddies.
Pius was the bully to end a whole civilization of bullies. Parents day, children would get their supplies. Cookies, jam, peanut butter, margarine, pocket money and what have you. Pius took everything from them and left them tokens.
Pius would wake the students at 3 am in the morning and have them go and milk the school cows for him. If he did not like the portions they brought back, he would get a switch and cane them on the spot. He was also a school captain.
-
I agree with you that ours is a false gospel.
Its false because it doesn't believe in purgatory
Its false because it doesn't believe in worshipping images of crucifix, saints, angels etc
ours is false because we don't hawk sins.
Hayo tu
When you say "our Gospel", Its good to realize you are speaking for only a section. vooke and dailybread are both Protestant and they don't believe it. I have also heard a preacher in Nairobi preaching it at a catholic mass, so it has spread sufficiently that it is not only Evangelicals who believe it. There are many evangelical and Protestant pastors who reject it. In fact, that naija link vooke posted in the other thread, they are all protestants, no catholic there. So this heresy is not an "evangelical gospel" or a protestant gospel. It is a fad and will soon pass when God so wills. The way you are avoiding answering any of the points I raise and turning to all sorts of irrelevancies is quite telling, though. It's a touchy subject.
-
Terminator,
He he he. But I thought this thread wasn't of any relevance to atheists.seems when christians clash, atheist wins.
Mention of piety reminds me of Pius. A man who was in boarding school in Ibadan with one of my good buddies.
Pius was the bully to end a whole civilization of bullies. Parents day, children would get their supplies. Cookies, jam, peanut butter, margarine, pocket money and what have you. Pius took everything from them and left them tokens.
Pius would wake the students at 3 am in the morning and have them go and milk the school cows for him. If he did not like the portions they brought back, he would get a switch and cane them on the spot. He was also a school captain.
-
Kadame, I don't know what definition you have for posperity. Why you are againt wof I don't know. But the fact is many and many cathos are beggining to see how gullible and indoctrinated they have been and are now joining evangelical ministries. Its just amazing! I agree that there are those fake preachers that are thriving on false doctrines to con Gods people and get rich. For that, its not you to judge but the bible tells us that we shall know them by their fruits- the false prophets of doom. I do not have to follow the likes of vooke with anti-tithe doctrines, nor DBreads H.G.whites indoctrination on investigative judgement. The Holy spirit is a teacher and simply gives me discerment and wisdom to know what Gods will is. And for that, I know am happier, healthier, and prosperous that would have been without Christ in my life. That's a testimony.
-
Terminator,
He he he. But I thought this thread wasn't of any relevance to atheists.seems when christians clash, atheist wins.
Mention of piety reminds me of Pius. A man who was in boarding school in Ibadan with one of my good buddies.
Pius was the bully to end a whole civilization of bullies. Parents day, children would get their supplies. Cookies, jam, peanut butter, margarine, pocket money and what have you. Pius took everything from them and left them tokens.
Pius would wake the students at 3 am in the morning and have them go and milk the school cows for him. If he did not like the portions they brought back, he would get a switch and cane them on the spot. He was also a school captain.
I am told Pius was merciless. Show me everything you have in that box.
Otherwise I have nothing against Christians. I think one can say Christians have brought more good than bad to the world. At least as far as the 21st century is concerned.
I just find it odd when arguments are advanced that don't make sense to me. I could be a Christian and still fail to grasp some of those arguments.
-
bittertruth,
Please make structured attacks on Catholicism instead or aimless jabs
this is vooke's position;
1. There is NOTHING wrong with Christians prospering materially. Basic principles such as hardwork, focus,education,inheritance taught in the scriptures work for everyone and not just Christians
2. Material prosperity is not and never has been the primary,secondary or even tertiary purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ
3. A Christian is likely to be prosperous just as the next Satanist or atheist
4. Poverty, dehumanizing as it is is, not a contradiction of the Christian Faith
5. Prosperity Gospel is both false and dangerous; it distorts our relationship with God and it NEVER works except for the proponents
-
my broda,
China is fast rising in the world scene and it is almost 100% non-Christian. I was expecting the 'most Christian' nation to rise. BTW, in your opinion, what country has the highest population of evangelicals like you? How has its circumstances changed over the years?
Please quit lying, believers don't live longer and are not necessarily healthier. If they are happier, it is because of having eternity in mind not because their present circumstances are better
Substance abuse and other risky behaviors will shorten lifespan but they are not exclusively non-Christians. I know many teetotalers who are non-believers for instance
vooke,
Generally, believers live longer, happier and healthier lives and even have better career prospects. Going to church and praying has huge benefits.
I think Church goers generally are much more conservative and tend to restrain themselves when it comes to problem causing areas of modern society.
There is a willingness to put the brakes on long before problems develop that are associated with vices like drunkenness for example, medical problems such liver diseases and the brain, or serious road injuries caused by driving while drunk, not to forget drugs, AIDS, gambling, cigarette-related cancers, and such, because these are lifestyles that most churchgoers try to avoid.
Faith in God seems to add an ingredient to life that brings hope and a positive attitude towards the future.
-
bittertruth,
There is no dignity in poverty. Did you watch that Kibera family that fed on Ugali and salty water for stew? Sometimes back I was watching Equity Bank's WIngs to Fly documentary and the harrowing tales some of those kids undergo are crazy. OF course wealth is good and nobody said it is not. But wealth is not and never has been a measure of faith
Prosperity gospel is not about charity negro, it is about pampering the pastor and his family and then sitting back with a constipated grin expecting a hundredfold harvest. If you don't believe me do a simple survey. Answer these questions as faithfully as you can.
1. Between your TOTAL monetary gifts(tithes,seeds and offerings) to your church/pastor and your personal acts of charity, what carries more weight?
2. Between your local church salary budget and charity, which is higher?
Of course the root of Prosperity Gospel is not selflessness but selfishness. You desire finer things in life coming easiest, you give to your church. It is ALWAYS about what is in it for you. Your giving is an investment scheme which you are convinced by your sleek MoG that it is guarantees the highest return
Kadame,
Poverty is not piety and wealth is not wickedness.
You can propagate your Poverty Gospel.
The poverty Gospel does nothing to put food in the mouths of hungry children. It just says, Be content in your suffering. Know that God is with you in your suffering.
But the Prosperity Gospel provides the resources to be able to help others.
-
bittertruth,
Please make structured attacks on Catholicism instead or aimless jabs
this is vooke's position;
1. There is NOTHING wrong with Christians prospering materially. Basic principles such as hardwork, focus,education,inheritance taught in the scriptures work for everyone and not just Christians
2. Material prosperity is not and never has been the primary,secondary or even tertiary purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ
3. A Christian is likely to be prosperous just as the next Satanist or atheist
4. Poverty, dehumanizing as it is is, not a contradiction of the Christian Faith
5. Prosperity Gospel is both false and dangerous; it distorts our relationship with God and it NEVER works except for the proponents
vooke, And this is my stand:
1.God is God of abundance. Jesus came to give us life and life more abundantly- John 10:10. This means that Gods covenant is a covenant of abundance. He wanted man to be prosperous from the very beginning (Genesis 1:28).
2.Poverty is always as result disobedience to word of God and is indeed a curse. Here are Biblical texts to support my assertions.
Haggai 1:4 Is it a time for you yourselves to be living in your panelled houses, while this house remains a ruin?....Consider your Ways! He who earns wages, earns wages to put into a bag with holes...Therefore the heavens above you withhold the dew, and the earth withholds its fruits.
Here, the people neglected the house of God but beautified their houses and therefore brought a curse upon them selves.
Malachi 3:9 You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation.
Here you see God calling man cursed because of robbing God.
Even today, God cannot tolerate His work being stopped for lack of funds when His people are working on their own selfish desires. That doesn't add up.
3. Wealth is a blessing. when You say that you are against prosperity theory, its like saying that you don't need anything more than you already have.
Jesus said "feed the poor", How are you going to feed the poor is you just have enough to feed yourself?
God wants his children to be rich. Some of wealthiest men of old are Abraham, Solomon, Isaac, Job. These were men of God and were all wealthy.
4. We are prospered to bless others. The Bible encourages us to excel in the grace of giving.
God gives everyone of His children the ability to get wealth. Therefore, as you abound in everything, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that you abound in the grace of giving also (2Corinthians 8:7).
-
bittertruth, do you honestly believe that poverty is always a curse? So all the rich people in the world are good and all the poor people somehow have done something bad in order to be cursed?
-
Kababe, Poverty is a demon. Its often times as a result of disobedience, laziness, fear etc. Poverty can be a generational curse, where you find people could be poor not because they are lazy but simply due to "sins" of forefathers.
If poverty was Godly, Jesus wouldn't preach - helping the poor.
God is for all human kind to be prosperous.
I don't want to discuss your assertion on riches because Satan can also provide riches.
bittertruth, do you honestly believe that poverty is always a curse? So all the rich people in the world are good and all the poor people somehow have done something bad in order to be cursed?
-
my broda,
China is fast rising in the world scene and it is almost 100% non-Christian. I was expecting the 'most Christian' nation to rise. BTW, in your opinion, what country has the highest population of evangelicals like you? How has its circumstances changed over the years?
This is non sequitur. We are not competing how many evangelical or Taoist we have on our camp. And by the way which is your camp?
Please quit lying, believers don't live longer and are not necessarily healthier. If they are happier, it is because of having eternity in mind not because their present circumstances are better.
could there be any other reason to make believer healthier and happier?
Its actually YOU who is lying. Read Proverbs 3:1-2
1My son, do not forget my teaching,
but keep my commands in your heart,
2 for they will prolong your life many years
and bring you peace and prosperity.[color]
Substance abuse and other risky behaviors will shorten lifespan but they are not exclusively non-Christians. I know many teetotalers who are non-believers for instance
What do you insinuate by non exclusively non-Christians. As far as I am concerned, drunkards belong to Hell. and if there is, not in evangelical doctrine of Faith.
-
bittertruth,
there was poverty in the first century church. If poverty was a demon, wasn't Paul out of his mind in collecting an offering for the same instead of exorcising it? Charity was a KEY aspect of Primitive Christianity. I hope you revere the Word of God above the junk they feed you every Sunday
Romans 15:26 New King James Version (NKJV)
26 For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem.
1 Corinthians 16:1New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also:
Galatians 2:10New King James Version (NKJV)
10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do.
Why charity instead of exorcism?
Poverty like disease,pain and death is a consequence of the fall of man. These are here with us until this world and earth is done away with. I find it deeply condescending to tell those people who can't afford a decent meal per day that they are cursed and lazy
-
I used China because they are prospering greatly and are non-Christian to show you the contradiction of your stance. If prosperity is a benefit of Christianity, non-CHristians would be far much miserable. They are not. I can't believe that an intelligent coder can fail to see these. You have taken up Obtuseness mantle from Nuff Sed
Did First Century Christians miss Proverbs 3 by any chance because many were poor? And what would have been a better remedy for their wealth apart from telling them to obey God's Word? Do you know of ANY poor Christians in your circles or family? is this what you prescribe to them? Reciting Joyce Meyer mantras?
About substance abuse, I mean an irresponsible drunk who reforms outside CHristianity is equally likely to prosper as a Christian. So is a hardworking,focussed atheist. Success principles in the Bible are universal; they work on everyone. This means they are NO PROOF that Christians fare better than non-Christians
my broda,
China is fast rising in the world scene and it is almost 100% non-Christian. I was expecting the 'most Christian' nation to rise. BTW, in your opinion, what country has the highest population of evangelicals like you? How has its circumstances changed over the years?
This is non sequitur. We are not competing how many evangelical or Taoist we have on our camp. And by the way which is your camp?
Please quit lying, believers don't live longer and are not necessarily healthier. If they are happier, it is because of having eternity in mind not because their present circumstances are better.
could there be any other reason to make believer healthier and happier?
Its actually YOU who is lying. Read Proverbs 3:1-2
1My son, do not forget my teaching,
but keep my commands in your heart,
2 for they will prolong your life many years
and bring you peace and prosperity.[color]
Substance abuse and other risky behaviors will shorten lifespan but they are not exclusively non-Christians. I know many teetotalers who are non-believers for instance
What do you insinuate by non exclusively non-Christians. As far as I am concerned, drunkards belong to Hell. and if there is, not in evangelical doctrine of Faith.
-
vooke, my question is this, if poverty is Godliness as you insinuate, then why did Jesus or Paul advocate for charity to support the poor?
The purpose to help the poor is to uplift their standards. God desire is for all humanity to prosper. Proverbs 3:1-2
bittertruth,
there was poverty in the first century church. If poverty was a demon, wasn't Paul out of his mind in collecting an offering for the same instead of exorcising it? Charity was a KEY aspect of Primitive Christianity. I hope you revere the Word of God above the junk they feed you every Sunday
Romans 15:26 New King James Version (NKJV)
26 For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem.
1 Corinthians 16:1New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also:
Galatians 2:10New King James Version (NKJV)
10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do.
Why charity instead of exorcism?
Poverty like disease,pain and death is a consequence of the fall of man. These are here with us until this world and earth is done away with. I find it deeply condescending to tell those people who can't afford a decent meal per day that they are cursed and lazy
-
bittertruth,
The Old Testament /Torah had provisions for the poor because God knew poverty even in obedience would be inevitable. That's why CHARITY was incorporated into the Law of Moses. Tithes was supposed to help the poor besides the Levites
Leviticus 23:22 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 ‘When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field when you reap, nor shall you gather any gleaning from your harvest. You shall leave them for the poor and for the stranger: I am the Lord your God.’”
Exodus 23:10-11New King James Version (NKJV)
10 “Six years you shall sow your land and gather in its produce, 11 but the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, that the poor of your people may eat; and what they leave, the beasts of the field may eat. In like manner you shall do with your vineyard and your olive grove.
Leviticus 25:39-43 New King James Version (NKJV)
39 ‘And if one of your brethren who dwells by you becomes poor, and sells himself to you, you shall not compel him to serve as a slave. 40 As a hired servant and a sojourner he shall be with you, and shall serve you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 And then he shall depart from you—he and his children with him—and shall return to his own family. He shall return to the possession of his fathers. 42 For they are My servants, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as slaves. 43 You shall not rule over him with rigor, but you shall fear your God.
Let me school you in Economics 101. Demand and Supply. Supposing everybody had 1 million salary in Kenia, would there be poverty?
-
bittertruth,
Please you can insult me all you want but don't misrepresent my post and proceed to attack them. You are a good student of Nuff Sed
I never said nor insinuated that poverty or disease is godliness.
I said POVERTY IS INEVITABLE in and out of Christianity because it is a consequence of the fall of man
You are characterizing poverty as a curse or demon (that's Pentecostal BS that's totally unscriptural. Am sure they feed you this every Sunday to make you part with your hard earned mullah).
Paul practiced and prescribed Charity instead of exorcism because those Christians had done NOTHING to deserve poverty. If they were possessed, charity was in vain. Same case if they was cursed. He did discourage some from laziness though
vooke, my question is this, if poverty is Godliness as you insinuate, then why did Jesus or Paul advocate for charity to support the poor?
The purpose to help the poor is to uplift their standards. God desire is for all humanity to prosper. Proverbs 3:1-2
-
I used China because they are prospering greatly and are non-Christian to show you the contradiction of your stance. If prosperity is a benefit of Christianity, non-CHristians would be far much miserable. They are not. I can't believe that an intelligent coder can fail to see these. You have taken up Obtuseness mantle from Nuff Sed
vooke,
Do you mean that your life is more miserable now than was without Christ?
Did First Century Christians miss Proverbs 3 by any chance because many were poor? And what would have been a better remedy for their wealth apart from telling them to obey God's Word? Do you know of ANY poor Christians in your circles or family? is this what you prescribe to them? Reciting Joyce Meyer mantras?
I agree that many were poor, But many were also prosperous, and were generous enough to give sufficiently to those who were poor. For Gods desire is for all humanity to prosper.
When I identify a needy soul, I pray with them, and I empower them be it capital, job, counselling etc.
Why would someone remain a beggar in the streets when they can hawk and become independent citizens?
About substance abuse, I mean an irresponsible drunk who reforms outside CHristianity is equally likely to prosper as a Christian. So is a hardworking,focussed atheist. Success principles in the Bible are universal; they work on everyone. This means they are NO PROOF that Christians fare better than non-Christians
Psalm 73:12 in the Amplified Bible says:
Behold, these are the ungodly, who always prosper and are at ease in the world; they increase in riches.
We should never spend even one second ..not one, being envious, jealous or upset when the ungodly prosper or get recognition we don't.
-
Bittertruth,
My present state is really no different from my non-believer classmates I left behind as I gave my life to Christ in Form 1. Some are doing exceptionally well, legally and are far ahead of me, others are my equals while others are behind me.
I think you are deliberately ignoring obvious facts that contradict the junk that you subscribe to. vooke is not saying Christians are more miserable than non-Christians, just that there is abundance/ lack across humanity regardless of their relationship with Christ
Now that you agree with me about poverty and abundance in the early church, do you deem their poverty a contradiction of their faith that could have been remedied by casting out poverty demons and breaking generational curses?
Whatever you are doing to help the less fortunate,don't spread your arrogance of poverty-is-a-curse/demon/consequence-of-sin because there are MANY Christians who have none of these and like the first century Christians are still dirt poor. Where I fellowship, there are many genuine and more committed negro Christians than me who rake in a fraction of what I do. I don't look down on them
Psalms 73 talks about unrighteous/wicked wealth/prosperity. It is not applicable to the many hardworking non-believers who make honest millions out of their own sweat. It is a no brainer that Christians don't call the shots in ANY profession or industry except prosperity Fraud
I used China because they are prospering greatly and are non-Christian to show you the contradiction of your stance. If prosperity is a benefit of Christianity, non-CHristians would be far much miserable. They are not. I can't believe that an intelligent coder can fail to see these. You have taken up Obtuseness mantle from Nuff Sed
vooke,
Do you mean that your life is more miserable now than was without Christ?
Did First Century Christians miss Proverbs 3 by any chance because many were poor? And what would have been a better remedy for their wealth apart from telling them to obey God's Word? Do you know of ANY poor Christians in your circles or family? is this what you prescribe to them? Reciting Joyce Meyer mantras?
I agree that many were poor, But many were also prosperous, and were generous enough to give sufficiently to those who were poor. For Gods desire is for all humanity to prosper.
When I identify a needy soul, I pray with them, and I empower them be it capital, job, counselling etc.
Why would someone remain a beggar in the streets when they can hawk and become independent citizens?
About substance abuse, I mean an irresponsible drunk who reforms outside CHristianity is equally likely to prosper as a Christian. So is a hardworking,focussed atheist. Success principles in the Bible are universal; they work on everyone. This means they are NO PROOF that Christians fare better than non-Christians
Psalm 73:12 in the Amplified Bible says:
Behold, these are the ungodly, who always prosper and are at ease in the world; they increase in riches.
We should never spend even one second ..not one, being envious, jealous or upset when the ungodly prosper or get recognition we don't.
-
Bittertruth, How come this prosperity falls short of guaranteeing believers an immortal earthly life? Why do Christians still die like other people?
No one is denying God blesses Christians. He also blesses non-Christians. No body would have a meal today if God did not provide for them. Poverty and suffering is not good in itself, but it can be used to trust God where you have no choice. Where you have choices and are poor out of sheer laziness obviously there is a fault there. But not all poverty is chosen. Those children in famines never chose poverty and you cant tell me entire tribes and cultures are suffering from generational curses when they are hit with famine or even disease. Should we say our Africa is bearing a demon that makes us as a people so poor?
Look, white people have completely thrown away their Christianity. Europe cannot be considered a Christian continent any more, in all honesty. Yet they are the richest. The Scandinavians have the best lifestyles on earth. They are almost all atheist/agnostic when polled. Christianity in some European countries is in the single digits, believe me. Yet they used to be all Christians, just few decades ago. What's happening there? The only Western country that still retains its faith somewhat though it is also loosing it, is the USA. Germany, Britain, France, Spain, Italy are now virtually non-Christian countries, only cultural connections make them identify as Christian but zero belief. Jesus is more likely to be insulted and blasphemed in these countries than in a Muslim nation or even in poor Africa. If someone looked at this with the mind that material wealth was a sign of faith, he would be forced to conclude that God has lost the plot completely.
-
kadame,
I was following this debate on nairaland and one negro, a sworn Oyakhilome fanatic audaciously declared that since he is Born again and full of the Holy Spirit just like Jesus, he can and he does the same miracles and he can NEVER be sick nor poor seeing these are consequences of sin and Christ did away with sin.
Somebody aksd him whether Christians fall sick and he said that like we occasionally fall into sin, a beliEver may fall sick. Unperturbed, he aksd why Christians still die yet death came as a result of the Fall/Sin. The answer was almost comical.
He said that death is regarded as an enemy bla bla bla and that Jesus has the keys of death and Hades and as such only He can call us home BUT HE IS SO 'KIND' HE NEVER DOES IT WITHOUT OUR CONSENT!
I joined in and aksd him if he had plans of preaching the gospel for 300 years by simply not consenting to his 'going home' seeing technically a Christian can live for as long as they want. I also wondered why believers like him conveniently consent to 'going home' at between 70 and 90 years
This is the conundrum you find yourself in for adopting a stupid and unbiblical stance.
Bittertruth, How come this prosperity falls short of guaranteeing believers an immortal earthly life? Why do Christians still die like other people?
-
Ha ha! Ati consent? The way some of these negroes love this life, I bet God would get mteja permanently if he kept calling on the business of dying. :D
kadame,
I was following this debate on nairaland and one negro, a sworn Oyakhilome fanatic audaciously declared that since he is Born again and full of the Holy Spirit just like Jesus, he can and he does the same miracles and he can NEVER be sick nor poor seeing these are consequences of sin and Christ did away with sin.
Somebody aksd him whether Christians fall sick and he said that like we occasionally fall into sin, a beliEver may fall sick. Unperturbed, he aksd why Christians still die yet death came as a result of the Fall/Sin. The answer was almost comical.
He said that death is regarded as an enemy bla bla bla and that Jesus has the keys of death and Hades and as such only He can call us home BUT HE IS SO 'KIND' HE NEVER DOES IT WITHOUT OUR CONSENT!
I joined in and aksd him if he had plans of preaching the gospel for 300 years by simply not consenting to his 'going home' seeing technically a Christian can live for as long as they want. I also wondered why believers like him conveniently consent to 'going home' at between 70 and 90 years
This is the conundrum you find yourself in for adopting a stupid and unbiblical stance.
Bittertruth, How come this prosperity falls short of guaranteeing believers an immortal earthly life? Why do Christians still die like other people?
-
To Bittertruth, St. Paul's advice to Christians on financial matters. :D
Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
“Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you.”
Hebrews 13:5New International Version (NIV)
-
kadame,
that was funny
NASIKITIKA......
Anyway the bigger problem is clinging to illogical man-made doctrines at ALL costs
Ha ha! Ati consent? The way some of these negroes love this life, I bet God would get mteja permanently if he kept calling on the business of dying. :D
-
Bittertruth, How come this prosperity falls short of guaranteeing believers an immortal earthly life? Why do Christians still die like other people?
Christians have immortal life sister. We don't believe in the soul sleep heresy. Jesus overcame death, and so we are.
No one is denying God blesses Christians. He also blesses non-Christians. No body would have a meal today if God did not provide for them. Poverty and suffering is not good in itself, but it can be used to trust God where you have no choice.Where you have choices and are poor out of sheer laziness obviously there is a fault there. But not all poverty is chosen. Those children in famines never chose poverty and you cant tell me entire tribes and cultures are suffering from generational curses when they are hit with famine or even disease. Should we say our Africa is bearing a demon that makes us as a people so poor?
Its disheartening to see how you continually demonstrate Gods as incapable. Where did you get this notion of having not CHOICE. This demonstrates your unadulterated ignorance and lack of faith thereof.
Look, white people have completely thrown away their Christianity. Europe cannot be considered a Christian continent any more, in all honesty. Yet they are the richest. The Scandinavians have the best lifestyles on earth. They are almost all atheist/agnostic when polled. Christianity in some European countries is in the single digits, believe me. Yet they used to be all Christians, just few decades ago. What's happening there? The only Western country that still retains its faith somewhat though it is also loosing it, is the USA. Germany, Britain, France, Spain, Italy are now virtually non-Christian countries, only cultural connections make them identify as Christian but zero belief. Jesus is more likely to be insulted and blasphemed in these countries than in a Muslim nation or even in poor Africa. If someone looked at this with the mind that material wealth was a sign of faith, he would be forced to conclude that God has lost the plot completely.
This just demonstrates how you Doubt God. That's foolish.
Psalm 73:1-8 "Surely God is good to Israel, to those who are pure in heart. But as for me, my feet had almost slipped. I had nearly lost my foothold. For I envied the arrogant when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. They have no struggles; their bodies are healthy and strong. They are free from the burdens common to man; they are not plagued by human ills. Therefore pride is their necklace; they clothe themselves with violence. From their callous hearts comes iniquity the evil conceits of their minds know no limits. They scoff and speak with malice; in their arrogance they threaten oppression. They mouths lay claim to heaven, and their tongues take possession of the earth".
It seemed to Asaph that the wicked enjoyed lives of ease and plenty, and then died peacefully without suffering. Yet their lives had been characterized by pride, cruelty, greed, trickery, scorn, oppression and boasting. Some of the godly were tempted to follow their example, for it seemed that God did not interfere with the wicked in their comfort. Even Asaph himself felt at times that there was so no purpose in suffering for God's sake.
Looking back, Asaph now sees how foolish he has been to doubt God. Although he had acted like an ignorant animal, the everlasting God has not left him. Asaph sees now that in God he has riches and pleasures that are permanent and beyond value.
-
Kadame, we all agreed that money in itself is not evil. But the love for money. All comments in this thread underpin this.
Now in all wisdom in you, do you believe that this was only addressed to the poor? certainly not. This addressed the rich and poor in equal measure.
Greed is not limited to the poor nor is contentment limited to the rich.
"A greedy man brings trouble to his own house." Proverbs 15:27 Here's another one: "They are like greedy dogs...everyone is for his own gain." Isaiah 56:11
To Bittertruth, St. Paul's advice to Christians on financial matters. :D
Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
“Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you.”
Hebrews 13:5New International Version (NIV)
-
Bittertruth, the way you keep relying on misrepresentations and distortions shows you have no genuine response to any of the points raised.
Tell me what choice children in famines or AIDS hospices have. Tell me what choice a child abandoned in the streets has. I don't know about you but I know whenever I am sick or grieving someone's death, I did not choose to be in those situations. If I had a choice I would never deliberately get sick or get myself in an accident or allow anyone I loved to die or experience any misfortune. I know when relatives have fallen ill and needed huge amounts for insane hospital bills, they never chose not to have fat wallets in those moments. So I really don't know what you are talking about. Really. ??
You know I talked about an immortal EARTHLY life. Introducing soul sleep here is plain pretense.
No one said that Paul was talking only to the poor, that is another distortion. I clearly said it was his advice to CHRISTIANS. That means everyone, not just rich, poor, or middle-class. Yes, its a caution against greed. Greed is exactly what drives the prosperity gospel.
-
Does prosperity equate to immortality? You should stick to facts . Using what we don't practise to prove your point is sheer nonsense.
You know I talked about an immortal EARTHLY life. Introducing soul sleep here is plain pretense.
-
thank you kadame for pointing this out
Why would a negro cling to doctrines they can't substantiate scripturally nor empirically?
Bittertruth, the way you keep relying on misrepresentations and distortions shows you have no genuine response to any of the points raised.
-
Its you who is trying to distort the infallible word of God. When the bible says be content with what you have it doesn't mean that you should be content in your poverty as you blindly attempted to insinuate.
There are no circumstances in life when a believer should have no choice. "NO CHOICE" is a state of despair/No hope.
This is the false gospel that the devil is propagating by making Christians begin doubting Gods faithfulness.
thank you kadame for pointing this out
Why would a negro cling to doctrines they can't substantiate scripturally nor empirically?
Bittertruth, the way you keep relying on misrepresentations and distortions shows you have no genuine response to any of the points raised.
-
There is an old prayer that recovering alcoholics at AA say, the serenity prayer. It goes
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
the courage to change the things I can change;
And the wisdom to know the difference.
It is simply an acknowledgment that there are things we have control over and there are things we have no control over. Sometimes we don't realize which is which. If a Christian is in a position to improve his present circumstances, by all means, do your best.
It is true that a Christian always has a choice in any condition, but which choice? Those who have prayed for God to cure a loved one of terminal illness and did not receive the response they expected and lost their loved one anyway, yes they have a choice: They can choose the mindset that looks at such things as evidence of a curse or lack of faith/faithfulness and then despair or abandon their faith, or they can surrender their suffering, confusion and pain to God, believing that "All things work together for the good of them that love the Lord". ALL things means all things. Even when we can't see how something so horrible could possibly be used for good, we believe God is working in ways we cant see for our own good and the good of others. That is what faith is to me. It is surrendering control over our lives to God even when we don't like how things are steering. But if faith means insisting on being in control over things you are not in control over, to each his own.
-
Faith means the absolute believe that GODS ABILITIES ARE NOT FINITE. All things are possible if we believe.
Jesus cured those who believed and NOT those who doubted.
Faith is hope for the unseen. Actually Heb 11:1 says Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen
We are assured of what we hope for, whether its healing, deliverance etc
When you aver that there are conditions we have no choice, you limit the capabilities of God and this breeds doubt.
Through faith God gives us the power to affect circumstances. When we place unwavering faith in God through Jesus Christ, the world will be affected. This is a promise from the Lord.
But if faith means insisting on being in control over things you are not in control over, to each his own.
-
What I am saying is what I was taught in C.R.E back in the day: God's answer is not always YES. Sometimes it is No or Wait. I have no doubt about God's capabilities, I just don't assume that God is always obligated to answer according to MY wishes.
-
Bittertruth,
it is you who mistake God's faithfulness for a blank cheque to all your whims including but not limited to immortality.
Do you know God is faithful but Christians have been dying since Pentecost?
Why would anybody be contented with poverty seeing how dehumanizing it is? Did you see those starving Pokot wazees eating wild fruits?
If you are poor, by all means do all that is necessary to get out. CONTENTMENT does not mean indolence, it means unwavering faith in lack as well as in abundance
Regardless of choice/no choice, there are dirt poor believers all over. God saves them from their sins and they remain poor. Are you suggesting that poor Christians are poor because they are ignorant of the WOrd or because they love poverty?
Its you who is trying to distort the infallible word of God. When the bible says be content with what you have it doesn't mean that you should be content in your poverty as you blindly attempted to insinuate.
There are no circumstances in life when a believer should have no choice. "NO CHOICE" is a state of despair/No hope.
This is the false gospel that the devil is propagating by making Christians begin doubting Gods faithfulness.
-
God's abilities are infinite yet you will not celebrate your 90th birthday.
No amount of faith and prayers will add an extra year to your life. In fact you may just check out at 60 :)
Faith means the absolute believe that GODS ABILITIES ARE NOT FINITE. All things are possible if we believe.
Jesus cured those who believed and NOT those who doubted.
Faith is hope for the unseen. Actually Heb 11:1 says Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen
We are assured of what we hope for, whether its healing, deliverance etc
When you aver that there are conditions we have no choice, you limit the capabilities of God and this breeds doubt.
Through faith God gives us the power to affect circumstances. When we place unwavering faith in God through Jesus Christ, the world will be affected. This is a promise from the Lord.
But if faith means insisting on being in control over things you are not in control over, to each his own.
-
Bottom line: We don't choose everything that happens to us. There are things that happen to people regardless of whether they chose it or not. My relative with Alzheimer's never made an application to be born with the genes he has. He never applied to get the disease. It just happened to him. If God wanted, he could take it away from him and relieve him of all the suffering and indignity it has caused him and his loved ones for a decade. Yet he has not taken it away. I wonder what "choice" Bittertruth thinks either he (the sick person) or the loved ones have; They have gotten medical attention, given love and care, and most importantly implored God. Yet somehow they have "a choice" in the matter of whether their loved one suffers or not. What an arrogant thing to say. I will leave this topic with that. To each his own.
-
vooke,
fyi
Life expectancy in the United States is at an all-time high of 78 years and 9 ½ months, according to a report released today by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. This I watched in Family TV.
(http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/GTY_LIFE_EXPECTANCY_141008_DG_16x9_992.jpg)
God's abilities are infinite yet you will not celebrate your 90th birthday.
No amount of faith and prayers will add an extra year to your life. In fact you may just check out at 60 :)
Faith means the absolute believe that GODS ABILITIES ARE NOT FINITE. All things are possible if we believe.
Jesus cured those who believed and NOT those who doubted.
Faith is hope for the unseen. Actually Heb 11:1 says Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen
We are assured of what we hope for, whether its healing, deliverance etc
When you aver that there are conditions we have no choice, you limit the capabilities of God and this breeds doubt.
Through faith God gives us the power to affect circumstances. When we place unwavering faith in God through Jesus Christ, the world will be affected. This is a promise from the Lord.
But if faith means insisting on being in control over things you are not in control over, to each his own.
-
That is a good thing
Now get me Russia's China and Japan and we can compare
vooke,
fyi
Life expectancy in the United States is at an all-time high of 78 years and 9 ½ months, according to a report released today by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. This I watched in Family TV.
-
Kadame,
You remember the woman who had been bleeding for 12yrs? She demonstrated unwavering faith for God. If she had the " I have prayed but God has not yet taken away" attitude, I think she would have given up.
God may often seem silent to us, but He never sends us away empty-handed. Even if prayer has not been answered, we must rely upon God to do so in His own time.
The bible commends us to pray without ceasing,
Even the exercise of prayer is a blessing to us, it is because of our faith that we are stirred to persist in prayer. It is the faith that pleases God.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/unanswered-prayer.html#ixzz3FdugicfC
Bottom line: We don't choose everything that happens to us. There are things that happen to people regardless of whether they chose it or not. My relative with Alzheimer's never made an application to be born with the genes he has. He never applied to get the disease. It just happened to him. If God wanted, he could take it away from him and relieve him of all the suffering and indignity it has caused him and his loved ones for a decade. Yet he has not taken it away.[/color] I wonder what "choice" Bittertruth thinks either he (the sick person) or the loved ones have; They have gotten medical attention, given love and care, and most importantly implored God. Yet somehow they have "a choice" in the matter of whether their loved one suffers or not. What an arrogant thing to say. I will leave this topic with that. To each his own.
-
http://www.absg.adventist.org/2014/4Q/TE/PDFs/ETQ414_02.pdf
The Rich and the Poor
In this short letter, James shows great concern for poor people; some
even consider it his major theme. But to modern ears, his diatribes
against the rich and in favor of the poor seem extreme, even shocking.
At the same time, however, James isn’t saying anything much different
from what Jesus has said.
Compare James 1:9–11 with Luke 8:14; compare James 1:27 with
Matthew 25:37–40; compare James 2:15, 16 with Luke 10:29–37;
and compare James 5:1–4 with Luke 12:16–21. What’s the common message there to us? What warnings and admonitions can we all take away from what’s so clearly expressed here?
____________________________________________________
____________________________________________________
____________________________________________________
____________________________________________________
____________________________________________________
James, of course, does not shut the doors of the kingdom on all rich
people. But, like Jesus, he recognizes the insidious temptations that
come with wealth. Rich or poor, we need to keep our eyes on the real
prize. The problem with money is that it tends to deceive us into focusing on the temporal instead of the eternal (2 Cor. 4:18).
No question, the acquisition of wealth, higher education, or social
influence tends to separate people from the “less fortunate.” But the
early church kept the two classes together by turning worldly values
upside down. The one who takes the lowest place, the role of humility,
is the one who can glory in exaltation.
“As long as there are hungry ones in God’s world to be fed, naked
ones to be clothed, souls perishing for the bread and water of salvation,
every unnecessary indulgence, every overplus of capital, pleads for the
poor and the naked.”—Ellen G. White, Welfare Ministry, p. 269.
What about yourself? Whether rich or poor, it doesn’t matter;
what matters is how you relate to money. What is it about money
that makes it so potentially dangerous to our souls?