Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: KenyanPlato on February 09, 2020, 07:54:07 PM
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Can it?
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Depends. But before I go on what exactly do you mean by "socialist revolution?" Do you mean "socialist" as in ideology whereby government implement "socialist policies" or by socialist you mean "popular based revolution?"
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Popular I want to work on it
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Very difficult. Very. If during Moi's time Kenyans couldn't do it apart demonstrations in Nairobi (mostly) they cannot do it now. Impossible.
Part of the problem is finding a unifying ideology independent of tribal loyalties. For example, even if right now Uhuru is unpopular in Mt. Kenya very few would support street protests to force him out. And of course right now he's hapa kwa hapa na Raila so Luos won't join in that "revolutionary actions.
It's almost impossible to have a popular revolution in Kenya. Actually if it were any easier, the usual instigators of regime change would have succeeded against Moi, or even against Kibaki.
Popular I want to work on it
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Very difficult. Very. If during Moi's time Kenyans couldn't do it apart demonstrations in Nairobi (mostly) they cannot do it now. Impossible.
Part of the problem is finding a unifying ideology independent of tribal loyalties. For example, even if right now Uhuru is unpopular in Mt. Kenya very few would support street protests to force him out. And of course right now he's hapa kwa hapa na Raila so Luos won't join in that "revolutionary actions.
It's almost impossible to have a popular revolution in Kenya. Actually if it were any easier, the usual instigators of regime change would have succeeded against Moi, or even against Kibaki.
Popular I want to work on it
I disagree. It can work if it is untainted and people see that it is an honest process.
Suppose you have a coterie of genuinely honest cross section of the country reps putting together a viable plan to restructure Kenya on more equitable footing. I believe most ethnic groups would support it.
People though Arab dictators would never be got ridden of because social divisions but they were wrong.
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2002 was the closest to a revolution. KANU was a huge machine that Moi had built and for it to be destroyed was no joke. Sadly Kibaki betrayed that revolution by becoming tribal as soon as he was in the statehouse and personally I stopped supporting Kibaki then. Kibaki had betrayed a revolution. People will have to forget about that first. Folks had thought NARC would be different - not corrupt - fair - not tribal - but it soon became clear that KANU had not been defeated - because KANUISM lived on.
People see dead Moi but that man was colossal...who bestrode Kenya landscape and for him to be "defeated" - technically he was retiring - was no joke - and many of us felt like those Arabs.
But like all revolution - disappointment almost starts immediately.
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I note about Arab revolution but also there is some exaggeration there. Libya was not even a revolution: it was Nato mercenaries and NATO itself. Syria too. Egypt was a typical military coup despite veneer of popular revolt.
Now getting "coterie of genuine honest reps" is not easy. The robust debate in Kenya has ironically made it harder for people to have unifying ideology very difficult.
I disagree. It can work if it is untainted and people see that it is an honest process.
Suppose you have a coterie of genuinely honest cross section of the country reps putting together a viable plan to restructure Kenya on more equitable footing. I believe most ethnic groups would support it.
People though Arab dictators would never be got ridden of because social divisions but they were wrong.
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The trouble with revolution is that you cannot guarantee the outcome. It could and often is worse than the previous regime. Libyans must regret that change or reform nonsense.
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The trouble with revolution is that you cannot guarantee the outcome. It could and often is worse than the previous regime. Libyans must regret that change or reform nonsense.
It has to have a Wide Movement that can transform into a Government.. Like the Movements in Venuezela by chavez, and Bolivia by Morales
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How is Venezuela doing now? The economic reforms did not endear then to the powers that be.
It has to have a Wide Movement that can transform into a Government.. Like the Movements in Venuezela by chavez, and Bolivia by Morales
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I note about Arab revolution but also there is some exaggeration there. Libya was not even a revolution: it was Nato mercenaries and NATO itself. Syria too. Egypt was a typical military coup despite veneer of popular revolt.
Now getting "coterie of genuine honest reps" is not easy. The robust debate in Kenya has ironically made it harder for people to have unifying ideology very difficult.
I disagree. It can work if it is untainted and people see that it is an honest process.
Suppose you have a coterie of genuinely honest cross section of the country reps putting together a viable plan to restructure Kenya on more equitable footing. I believe most ethnic groups would support it.
People though Arab dictators would never be got ridden of because social divisions but they were wrong.
Libya's revolution was hijacked by NATO, it started out as genuine popular uprising, before crooked Hillary arm twisted a reluctant Barack, Cameron and Sarkozy joined in to give it a veneer. Egypt's military stole the revolution but it saved Egypt from an even worse fate - Islamic pariah republic. Syrian regime was saved by Russia.
Kenya can't be saved because one tribe is an obstacle. They are haughty yet cowardly, acquisitive without any moral scruples.
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How is Venezuela doing now? The economic reforms did not endear then to the powers that be.
It has to have a Wide Movement that can transform into a Government.. Like the Movements in Venuezela by chavez, and Bolivia by Morales
The capitalists wont go away without a fight.. They are damaging Venezuela in process of trying to wrestle power from Socialists
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None of the Arab Spring has turned out better off at all. Sisi is no better than Mubarak. Yemen, Syria, Tunisia, Lybia are all at war. The refugee crisis quickly morphed into the European Spring of Alt-Right wins. The likes of Orban and Kaczyinski rode the anti- migrant wave. It shook Germany and the UK. Merkel is stepping down and Brexit got a boost over the edge. Even Trump was aided by the Obama misadventures in Libya and Syria.
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Can it?
It has been tried. But tribal cleavages are stronger than any shared class sensibilities. Greater urbanization might change that.
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Kenya is more complex than "one tribe obstacle" as you put it. The kind of revolution you'd promote would find it very hard to have general acceptance among five big communities. They have different interests which aren't easy to reconcile.
But truly despite what you claim, Libya and Syria were not GENUINE Revolution. Are still not genuine revolutions. They were instigated by US/Nato Gang who organised and armed these Jihadists as tools of Regime Change.
But most importantly, does Kenya deserve revolution? Is it needed?
Libya's revolution was hijacked by NATO, it started out as genuine popular uprising, before crooked Hillary arm twisted a reluctant Barack, Cameron and Sarkozy joined in to give it a veneer. Egypt's military stole the revolution but it saved Egypt from an even worse fate - Islamic pariah republic. Syrian regime was saved by Russia.
Kenya can't be saved because one tribe is an obstacle. They are haughty yet cowardly, acquisitive without any moral scruples.
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If i was in Europe or US I would oppose Immigrants coming in especially in such large numbers. But to blame are European and US governments who instigate wars which inevitably produce more and more refugees who ran away from war zone to "safe zones.."
Its idiotic of Europeans to be part of destroying Middle East Countries and others then complain about immigrants. What do they expect? People would patiently die in their desert countries?
None of the Arab Spring has turned out better off at all. Sisi is no better than Mubarak. Yemen, Syria, Tunisia, Lybia are all at war. The refugee crisis quickly morphed into the European Spring of Alt-Right wins. The likes of Orban and Kaczyinski rode the anti- migrant wave. It shook Germany and the UK. Merkel is stepping down and Brexit got a boost over the edge. Even Trump was aided by the Obama misadventures in Libya and Syria.
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I think by 2002 the power of KANU had been whittled. Primarily because once multipartyism set in Kanu lost some regions. It wasn't as the behemoth it had been. Remember Moi engaged in competitive politics between 1992 and 1997. It would have been a revolution had Jaramogi and Matiba United in 1992 elections. They would have defeated Kanu then.
But what is undeniable is that Moi inherited a weak party from Kenyatta (who didn't see the value or was unable to make Kanu a mass movement) and made it a behemoth. No one else has been able to mobilize and create such a political party. What we have are just temporary vehicles formed or resurrected every 5 yrs to win power.
2002 was the closest to a revolution. KANU was a huge machine that Moi had built and for it to be destroyed was no joke. Sadly Kibaki betrayed that revolution by becoming tribal as soon as he was in the statehouse and personally I stopped supporting Kibaki then. Kibaki had betrayed a revolution. People will have to forget about that first. Folks had thought NARC would be different - not corrupt - fair - not tribal - but it soon became clear that KANU had not been defeated - because KANUISM lived on.
People see dead Moi but that man was colossal...who bestrode Kenya landscape and for him to be "defeated" - technically he was retiring - was no joke - and many of us felt like those Arabs.
But like all revolution - disappointment almost starts immediately.
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Singapore's kind of socialism mixed with capitalism is the answer.
A true capitalist will not even help his grandparents pay their bills.
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A revolution can happen in Kenya, but it would not be a socialist one, but a economic one.
People in Kenya do not want things for free. They just want to be given equal oppurtunities to make a living. The current system favours less than 1% of the population and another 9% who help the 1% milk the country dry.
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The 1% system is highly dependent on govt which needs to end.
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KP what is going on ? Not too long ago you were singing about developing a money app... now WTF? Have you been reading OO's digital titchels?
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KP what is going on ? Not too long ago you were singing about developing a money app... now WTF? Have you been reading OO's digital titchels?
Nope just wondering out aloud.. I am thinking of a way to transform Kenya. I believe the oligarchy trickle down economics is not working.. OO was too Theoritical. I read all his essays.. they were entertaining but not pratical
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Time to revive SDP Social Democratic Party of Kenya as Social Transformation Party of Kenya (STP)
A man from Lari who schooled at Princenton University founded SDP. He invited then socialists akina Professor Nyong, His vision was that Kenya needed a social transformation to address endemic poverty. There is no reason that 15 million kenyans have to live on the margins of society while being ravaged by poverty.
So how do we get a socialist revolution in a Oligarchy society. How do we wrestle power from today capitalistic pigs. One we need to call for Tax equity. I would say Kenya needs to abolish VAT tax and introduce income TAX that is progressive. We need to tax every property and wealth. Anyone over let us say 3 million in savings should be forced to pay tax of 200,000 a year as a wealth tax.
By abolishing VAT tax essential commodities would be cheaper and the most poor would be able to afford.
To fund education each property owner whether real estate or personal property such as car would be required to pay a school tax. This would be used to fund free primary and secondary education
On the economic front
I would impose tarriffs on all non essential imports. It would be heft targeted tarriffs on agricultural imports and non necessary medical tourism being practiced by middle class and super wealthy in India
I would put funding into production of basic pharmaceautical products such as insulin, antibiotics, controlled substances used to control pain in terminal diseases and for cancer therapy
I would reintroduce DTT in areas with heavy malaria outbreaks
I would find a way of implementing Ndung'u land report recommendations on repossession of land grabbed. Kenyatta and Kenyatta era land barons would have to surrender their lands back to the state for redistribution. SO would Moi cronies and his family
To implement this I would form a party of 5 million poor Kenyans and ask them to sacrifice the little they have and in return I would deliver the biggest poverty reduction program in Sub Sahara.
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The Princeton man from Lari must be Dr Apollo Njonjo. Insufferable ideologue like Ndii and Miguna. The abhorrent fool repulsed everyone. The only breath of life in SDP was Charity Ngilu.
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The Princeton man from Lari must be Dr Apollo Njonjo. Insufferable ideologue like Ndii and Miguna. The abhorrent fool repulsed everyone. The only breath of life in SDP was Charity Ngilu.
You are a fossil robust. He had a farm where he tried to raise cattle and pigs and then abandoned it. I was not very familiar with him. He lived in red Hill. I think alcohol and diabetus took him out ...ngilu was their Trojan horse to get to power
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Robina put your thesis here and you can throw shade on Apollo Njonjo
ebate on land cannot be gagged if we want to create a democratic state
- 10th Feb 2013 00:00:00 GMT +0300
By Anyang Nyong’o
Forget, for the moment, those calling for an embargo on the public debate on land: they are simply out of touch with the pulse of ordinary Kenyans. In any case, if there is any single issue that has dominated intellectual as well as public discourse in Kenya since independence it is the issue of land ownership, use, scarcity and land as an arena for social conflict.
My friend, the late Dr Apollo Luciano Njonjo, wrote a path-breaking thesis at Princeton University on the agrarian question in central Kenya, focusing particularly on land ownership in Kiambu and commercial agriculture.
This thesis, and the articles he subsequently wrote out of it, pricked the conscience of the Kiambu agrarian aristocracy and Apollo was obviously not regarded very well by these gentlemen. The tag “rebel” was hang around his neck within the circles of this class, which wielded enormous State power during the Kenyatta regime.
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Thus land, politics and capital have gone together as a trio since colonial times. The colonial ruling class, the white gentry, were a landed lot who deprived peasants of their land in central Kenya and the Rift Valley. They caused a tremendous upheaval that climaxed with the Mau Mau and led to the nationalist movement for independence in Kenya. Out of the nationalists now in State power emerged the landed aristocrats in central Kenya who, uncomfortable with the firebrand nationalists like Bildad Kaggia and Jaramogi Oginga Odinga, fused landed power with state power, sending the firebrand nationalists to forced early retirement from politics as detainees and as the “political unwanted”.
Land ownership in Kiambu has not changed much since Apollo Njonjo wrote his thesis except for the fact that a part of Kiambu is now a bedroom community for the city of Nairobi: real estate, as it were, is eating up farmers. And landowners who do not want to face the day-to-day contradiction and conflicts with the landless are clever enough to turn their landed wealth into either finance capital or real estate capital.
The landless, however, remain there in Kamirithu or other hamlets with poverty permanently staring at them like stubborn buffalos. This situation, definitely, is one which would find Prophet Amos an eager and ready commentator who the landed aristocracy would not feel comfortable with when he says: “They sell the righteous for silver, and the needy for a pair of sandals; they trample on the heads of the poor, as upon the dust of the ground; and deny justice to the oppressed.”
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When we talk of the landed aristocracy we do not mean the commercial bourgeoisie who borrowed money from the Agricultural Finance Corporation, bought land, grew coffee, employed labour and by sheer entrepreneurship grew from one stage of capitalist development to the other. These are the engines of growth in our economy. They exist in various sectors of the economy beyond agriculture, and quite often they are also the victims of the “straddlers” using state power to leap frog from land ownership (usually “grabbed” land) to entrepreneurship, and quite often with very poor results. And that is why they must struggle tooth and nail to access state power to permanently protect their straddling and grabbing tendencies.
In the much wider scheme of things we need to realise that we are in a transition, a major transition; a transition which, at the political level, manifests itself as a transition from a presidential authoritarian regime to a national democratic regime. The Constitution envisages the emergence of a national democratic and developmental state: this is a state, which is democratic in political form and developmental in social and economic content.
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Politically the presidential authoritarian “forms” have to be dismantled: the judges who are on hire, the authoritarian Provincial Administration, the police who are only answerable to the top, etc. All these have been used, under the presidential authoritarian system, to “legalise” land grabbing, delegitimise any resistance to land grabbing and theft, and to finance politics out of shady land transactions.
As the national democratic and developmental state is institutionalised Kenya has to have land laws and regulations that will first and foremost correct the injustices such as grabbing, theft, deprivations etc, which are completely antithetical to legal capital accumulation in a democratic and developmental state. As such debate on land cannot be gagged if we want to create a state, which is democratic in political form and developmental in social and economic content.
No wonder the setting up of a National Land Commission has been such a protracted struggle. By its very nature it had to be so. The transition is a threat to certain life styles and those who enjoy these life styles will resist the transition and mobilise political allies even across class lines to defend their case. And this is where ethnic identities are at times used to create blocks of solidarity, which impede progress in defense of a decaying social, political and economic order.
To be precise the land question is not an ethnic issue: it is a national issue. It has always shaped and impacted upon the national fortunes of our country. But ideologically it has quite often been presented as an ethnic issue, pitting one ethnic group against another, and creating conflicts at levels of ordinary peasants away from the real perpetrators of social injustice: the lot Prophet Amos speaks about. Let us wake up and protect the innocent so as to make progress at this transitional time.