Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: vooke on November 02, 2017, 06:25:30 PM
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NASA PRESS RELEASE:
A CALL TO PEOPLE’S ASSEMBLY AND OPERATIONS OF NRM;
Governors from the National Super Alliance today approved the Coalition’s plans to set up a People’s Assembly and initiate a review of the Constitution particularly to safeguard and strengthen devolution in line with the pronouncement by Principals earlier this week.
The Governors who met earlier today in Nairobi agreed to take the proposal to their county assemblies for approval and mobilize grassroots leaders to the conference when it is convened.
The People’s National Assembly will comprise Governors and Deputy Governors; members of the Senate, National Assembly and County Assembly; religious, trade union and civil society leaders; and representatives of youth and women organizations.
It is to constitute a convention to be held in Nairobi to discuss and determine the pathway to democracy and constitutionalism and to restore legality and the rule of law.
The convention shall make decisions and recommendations to achieve democracy, constitutionalism and to restore legality and will form any bodies or organize other platforms for purposes of attaining its declared objectives.
During the meeting presided over by NASA principals Raila Odinga, Musalia Mudavadi and Moses Wetangula, the governors were also briefed on and approved the Coalition’s plan to form a special committee to review the Constitution of Kenya 2010 to address the following matters for purposes of making necessary constitutional amendments or changes:-
1. Protection of and safeguarding devolution. Governors expressed deep concern about the operations of the devolved units and cited frustration with the non-disbursement of funds to the counties. They pledged to back any efforts, including constitutional amendments that will shield counties from the stifling hold of the National Government.
2. The architecture and structure of the Executive and Parliament.
3. Exclusivity and discrimination in the allocation or distribution of public resources.
4. Review the performance of national security organs and the abuse thereof by the Executive.
5. Structure and the establishment of an independent electoral body.
6. Creation of an enabling and conducive environment for economic growth and development to deal with poverty, unemployment and problems of women and the youth.
NORMAN MAGAYA.
CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER
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Okoa okoa reloaded..waste of time
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Is it Che or inFidel?
(https://i.imgur.com/JG8kQKk.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/rOqqKSW.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/KBAgGqD.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/W5g77xw.jpg)
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According to Ghandi, for Civil Disobedience/Non Violent Resistance/Active Non Violence to take effect, there is need for:
• A psychological change away from passive
submission to self-respect and courage.
• Recognition by the subjects that the sub-
jects’ assistance makes the regime possible.
• The building of a determination to with-
draw cooperation and obedience.
This withdrawal of cooperation and obedi-
ence may also occur among both the rulers’
agents of repression and their administrators.
Their attitudes are especially important. With-
out their support, the oppressive system disin-
tegrates.
Gandhi was convinced that these changes
could be consciously infl uenced.
The answer to the problem of uncontrolled
political power may therefore lie in learning
how to carry out and maintain withdrawal of
cooperation and obedience despite repression.
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According to Ghandi, for Civil Disobedience/Non Violent Resistance/Active Non Violence to take effect, there is need for:
• A psychological change away from passive
submission to self-respect and courage.
• Recognition by the subjects that the sub-
jects’ assistance makes the regime possible.
• The building of a determination to with-
draw cooperation and obedience.
This withdrawal of cooperation and obedi-
ence may also occur among both the rulers’
agents of repression and their administrators.
Their attitudes are especially important. With-
out their support, the oppressive system disin-
tegrates.
Gandhi was convinced that these changes
could be consciously infl uenced.
The answer to the problem of uncontrolled
political power may therefore lie in learning
how to carry out and maintain withdrawal of
cooperation and obedience despite repression.
Km you just follow cues from NASWA.
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Is that group photo photoshopped? My eyes are picking up two Gladys Wangas, one standing, another seated on RAO's right....naona vibaya?
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Is that group photo photoshopped? My eyes are picking up two Gladys Wangas, one standing, another seated on RAO's right....naona vibaya?
Correct.
The lady standing has a watch on her right hand with a black strap. The seated Wanga doesn’t and nor does the solo photo
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Is that group photo photoshopped? My eyes are picking up two Gladys Wangas, one standing, another seated on RAO's right....naona vibaya?
Correct.
The lady standing has a watch on her right hand with a black strap. The seated Wanga doesn’t and nor does the solo photo
Who's this Wanga double? :o Ajabu. Maybe her sister.
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Pastor. Not really, I am just in total agreement so far.
According to Ghandi, for Civil Disobedience/Non Violent Resistance/Active Non Violence to take effect, there is need for:
• A psychological change away from passive
submission to self-respect and courage.
• Recognition by the subjects that the sub-
jects’ assistance makes the regime possible.
• The building of a determination to with-
draw cooperation and obedience.
This withdrawal of cooperation and obedi-
ence may also occur among both the rulers’
agents of repression and their administrators.
Their attitudes are especially important. With-
out their support, the oppressive system disin-
tegrates.
Gandhi was convinced that these changes
could be consciously infl uenced.
The answer to the problem of uncontrolled
political power may therefore lie in learning
how to carry out and maintain withdrawal of
cooperation and obedience despite repression.
Km you just follow cues from NASWA.
-
Pastor. Not really, I am just in total agreement so far.
According to Ghandi, for Civil Disobedience/Non Violent Resistance/Active Non Violence to take effect, there is need for:
• A psychological change away from passive
submission to self-respect and courage.
• Recognition by the subjects that the sub-
jects’ assistance makes the regime possible.
• The building of a determination to with-
draw cooperation and obedience.
This withdrawal of cooperation and obedi-
ence may also occur among both the rulers’
agents of repression and their administrators.
Their attitudes are especially important. With-
out their support, the oppressive system disin-
tegrates.
Gandhi was convinced that these changes
could be consciously infl uenced.
The answer to the problem of uncontrolled
political power may therefore lie in learning
how to carry out and maintain withdrawal of
cooperation and obedience despite repression.
Km you just follow cues from NASWA.
Ok sir,
That’s a powerful quote lakini.
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Pastor. Not really, I am just in total agreement so far.
According to Ghandi, for Civil Disobedience/Non Violent Resistance/Active Non Violence to take effect, there is need for:
• A psychological change away from passive
submission to self-respect and courage.
• Recognition by the subjects that the sub-
jects’ assistance makes the regime possible.
• The building of a determination to with-
draw cooperation and obedience.
This withdrawal of cooperation and obedi-
ence may also occur among both the rulers’
agents of repression and their administrators.
Their attitudes are especially important. With-
out their support, the oppressive system disin-
tegrates.
Gandhi was convinced that these changes
could be consciously infl uenced.
The answer to the problem of uncontrolled
political power may therefore lie in learning
how to carry out and maintain withdrawal of
cooperation and obedience despite repression.
Km you just follow cues from NASWA.
Ok sir,
That’s a powerful quote lakini.
Pastor, we are doing what we believe to be the right thing driven by the faith that we will succeed. We leave the predictions to those who sincerely do not have a dog in this dog. If we achieve our goals, it will be described as the greatest experiment of our time. What is unacceptable is accepting the status quo as Robina has decided to and to capitulate and succumb to ouruto dictatorship and a return to the Moi days with arap mashamba at the helm.
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Kichwa has conjured William Ruto into an ogre :) just because he has obliterated Raila Odinga. It's very likely he will be the next president. Whether that's good or bad will depend on his actions. So far he meets expectation for me. He's stability in the chaos.
He's already calling the shots. This is reality not capitulation.
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Kichwa has conjured William Ruto into an ogre :) just because he has obliterated Raila Odinga. It's very likely he will be the next president. Whether that's good or bad will depend on his actions. So far he meets expectation for me. He's stability in the chaos.
He's already calling the shots. This is reality not capitulation.
Obliterated through subterfuge, massive electoral fraud and murder of political opponents and their supporters? Some victory, huh...
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Kichwa has conjured William Ruto into an ogre :) just because he has obliterated Raila Odinga. It's very likely he will be the next president. Whether that's good or bad will depend on his actions. So far he meets expectation for me. He's stability in the chaos.
He's already calling the shots. This is reality not capitulation.
Obliterated through subterfuge, massive electoral fraud and murder of political opponents and their supporters? Some victory, huh...
The contention is method; The obliteration is real. From majority ODM in 2007 to the modern ODM which is NDP. Samoei is the chief culprit thus all the jaundiced epiphets.
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The problem with you is you actually think that the presidency is the standard gold for success in politics. If politics is defined as the ability to change peoples lives for the better then I do not believe Ruto will ever even came close to Raila. Idi Amin Dada was president, Noriega was president, Sadaam Husseing was president, so was Hitler and many more that I forgot to mention. Ruto can join the rank of them and I will still think the same of him. Kenyans are divided on a lot of things but only those who are not honest like you would call Raila obliterated by arap Mashamba. I am sure Kenyans competing today in the New York marathon would like to compete on a level playing field and not with others on steroids. That's what Raila is complaining about. If the death of Msando did not touch you, then DCJ Mwilu's questioning about how we ended up with more presidential voters than the votes for other positions should, or the none answer as to why the IEBC's chairman logged in 10, 000 times or the refusal for the court order to open the server, among many more. Good luck defending and apologizing for the thieves.
Kichwa has conjured William Ruto into an ogre :) just because he has obliterated Raila Odinga. It's very likely he will be the next president. Whether that's good or bad will depend on his actions. So far he meets expectation for me. He's stability in the chaos.
He's already calling the shots. This is reality not capitulation.
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Kichwa all those dictators have more in common with Raila than Ruto. Even if the pope oversaw our elections you'd credit Raila's loss to the sophisticated rigging machinery :) It's "sophisticated" because you're the only one who can comprehend it's full depths. Unlike we simpletons.
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Unfortunately for you, the Supreme court ruled against those elections and we all witnessed the 1)the murder of Msando 2) the fact that there were more people who voted for president than the other offices and IEBC could not explain why on national TV 3) that the Chairman's log in credentials was used 10,000 times to enter and delete the forms without his knowledge or permission, 4) IEBC refused to open the servers, 5) the DCJ's driver was shot 6) judge Odunga's order was overturned in the middle of the night. All you can do is copy the tired old lines about against Raila.
Kichwa all those dictators have more in common with Raila than Ruto. Even if the pope oversaw our elections you'd credit Raila's loss to the sophisticated rigging machinery :) It's "sophisticated" because you're the only one who can comprehend it's full depths. Unlike we simpletons.
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In January after Chebukati was appointed we were assured the rigging machinery had been decimated. Now the poor man must go. In 2022 it'll be the same story - the sophisticated machinery - after Raila's upteenth beating. He needs to let fresh ideas take root - instead of the stale boycott :) - like Bob Dole, Al Gore, Mitt Romney and other democrats.
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In January after Chebukati was appointed we were assured the rigging machinery had been decimated. Now the poor man must go. In 2022 it'll be the same story - the sophisticated machinery - after Raila's upteenth beating. He needs to let fresh ideas take root - instead of the stale boycott :) - like Bob Dole, Al Gore, Mitt Romney and other democrats.
Exactly.
That Raila lost to Uhuruto can only be blamed on the chaotic mess that was NASA.
And NASA, instead of taking responsibility for their own shortcomings, believe pushing the blame away will work wonders.
If NASA continues on this self-destructive path, Ruto might make it in 2022 (that is, if the MKM allow him...which I doubt).
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In January after Chebukati was appointed we were assured the rigging machinery had been decimated. Now the poor man must go. In 2022 it'll be the same story - the sophisticated machinery - after Raila's upteenth beating. He needs to let fresh ideas take root - instead of the stale boycott :) - like Bob Dole, Al Gore, Mitt Romney and other democrats.
Exactly.
That Raila lost to Uhuruto can only be blamed on the chaotic mess that was NASA.
And NASA, instead of taking responsibility for their own shortcomings, believe pushing the blame away will work wonders.
If NASA continues on this self-destructive path, Ruto might make it in 2022 (that is, if the MKM allow him...which I doubt).
Hehe that's why Mr Odinga needs to let young turks in. They could pull a fast one on Jubilee like he did in Kanu. Without all the baggage. The whole point in democracy is to accept others have worthy ideals no matter how brilliant your own.
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The days when others like you had a monopoly on what is the truth and the way forward are long gone. Raila won in 2007, 2013 and 2017 and that is the truth as far as we are concerned. We will not accept and move on. Time is on our side and time will prove we were right all along. We reject all falsehoods and lectures by jubilee hypocrites with all the contempt that they deserve.
In January after Chebukati was appointed we were assured the rigging machinery had been decimated. Now the poor man must go. In 2022 it'll be the same story - the sophisticated machinery - after Raila's upteenth beating. He needs to let fresh ideas take root - instead of the stale boycott :) - like Bob Dole, Al Gore, Mitt Romney and other democrats.
Exactly.
That Raila lost to Uhuruto can only be blamed on the chaotic mess that was NASA.
And NASA, instead of taking responsibility for their own shortcomings, believe pushing the blame away will work wonders.
If NASA continues on this self-destructive path, Ruto might make it in 2022 (that is, if the MKM allow him...which I doubt).
-
Pastor, we are doing what we believe to be the right thing driven by the faith that we will succeed. We leave the predictions to those who sincerely do not have a dog in this dog. If we achieve our goals, it will be described as the greatest experiment of our time. What is unacceptable is accepting the status quo as Robina has decided to and to capitulate and succumb to ouruto dictatorship and a return to the Moi days with arap mashamba at the helm.
Tell you what,
I may not agree with NASWA but I’m struggling to see a better alternative to facing off with Jubilee juggernaut
Only protests hounded issak Hassan and Thugs Inc. so if NASWA keeps conjuring such novel ideas as secession and people’s Assembly you never know what may give
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The days when others like you had a monopoly on what is the truth and the way forward are long gone. Raila won in 2007, 2013 and 2017 and that is the truth as far as we are concerned. We will not accept and move on. Time is on our side and time will prove we were right all along. We reject all falsehoods and lectures by jubilee hypocrites with all the contempt that they deserve.
In January after Chebukati was appointed we were assured the rigging machinery had been decimated. Now the poor man must go. In 2022 it'll be the same story - the sophisticated machinery - after Raila's upteenth beating. He needs to let fresh ideas take root - instead of the stale boycott :) - like Bob Dole, Al Gore, Mitt Romney and other democrats.
Exactly.
That Raila lost to Uhuruto can only be blamed on the chaotic mess that was NASA.
And NASA, instead of taking responsibility for their own shortcomings, believe pushing the blame away will work wonders.
If NASA continues on this self-destructive path, Ruto might make it in 2022 (that is, if the MKM allow him...which I doubt).
Truth? You speak of truth while spouting what NASA has fed you without counter checking?
Example: gleefully attacking Ruto on the hustler jet when it's Rao who first started using it:
Raila was without a doubt robbed of his victory in 2007 but lost due to his own ineptitude in 2013 & 2017. Interestingly, without Ruto at his side organizing, he blew it both times. Food for thought, n'est pas? I don't think I even need bother mentioning Orengo's own words to Ranneberger on how hopeless Raila is as a manager.
I just hope you (and other NASA supporters) can drop this attitude that when I or others criticize Rao that I'm for Uhuruto. If NASA took criticism seriously and worked on their (Rao's) problems, we'd have crowned him PORK in August, second term. Yet here we are, still going around in circles yelling "Stolen elections". It's like listening to a broken record.
Sigh [emoji33]
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Empedocles - All NASA supporters are equal but some are more equal than others. Don't confuse them with facts.
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Empedocles - All NASA supporters are equal but some are more equal than others. Don't confuse them with facts.
My bad [emoji16]
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NASA PRESS STATEMENT
NOVEMBER 7, 2017:
MOTION FOR COUNTY ASSEMBLIES ON CREATION OF PEOPLE’S ASSEMBLY IN KENYA:
Last week, we announced that NASA and all its supporters do not recognise the exercise conducted on October 26th 2017 as an election under the Constitution of Kenya.
We equally do not recognise the declaration of Uhuru Kenyatta as President-elect as a constitutional pronouncement capable of constituting him as a legitimate President of the Republic of Kenya.
The refusal by IEBC and the Jubilee Party to allow the people of Kenya to lend their sovereignty to a properly elected president through free, fair and credible elections does not however leave the people of Kenya with no options.
As we have said before, as a people, we are not powerless against a government that has closed its ears to reason and logic.
Our constitution had foreseen such circumstances like the ones we are in and provided that the people of Kenya have a right to exercise their sovereignty directly or through elected representatives.
As the people of Kenya are now unable to exercise their sovereignty through properly elected representatives following the sham elections of August 8th and 26th October, we have resolved to exercise sovereignty directly.
Beginning this week therefore, the county assemblies of the Republic of Kenya shall be presented with a Motion to create a People’s Assembly through which the people of Kenya shall henceforth exercise their sovereignty up to and until the holding of proper elections in this country.
As we have explained in recent days, the People’s Assembly will comprise Governors and Deputy Governors; members of the Senate, National Assembly and County Assembly; religious, trade union and civil society leaders; and representatives of youth and women organizations.
It is to constitute a convention to be held in Nairobi to discuss and determine the pathway to democracy and constitutionalism and to restore legality and the rule of law.
The convention shall make decisions and recommendations to achieve democracy, constitutionalism and to restore legality and will form any bodies or organize other platforms for purposes of attaining its declared objectives. We are sharing a copy of the Motion which is also being sent to the counties beginning this afternoon.
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MOTION
AWARE that on 8th August 2017 and 26th October 2017 IEBC conducted illegal, unconstitutional and undemocratic presidential elections;
RECOGNIZING the fact that the turnout for the presidential elections was thirty percent or thereabouts of the total number of all the registered voters in Kenya and therefore the President cannot by delegation or otherwise, be properly vested with the people’s sovereign power and authority;
OBSERVING that the exercise of the executive authority by the President has in the past few years reintroduced the trappings of the imperial presidency and despotic tendencies in the conduct of public affairs;
KNOWING that Parliament has been legislating unconstitutional, illegal, undemocratic and draconian laws, and in particular laws that contravene the Bill of Rights and the principles for the electoral system; and
ACKNOWLEDGING the sovereign power of the people of Kenya, the supremacy of the Constitution of Kenya 2010 and the sovereign right or authority of the people to determine the form of governance in Kenya.
THIS HOUSE RESOLVES AS FOLLOWS
a) The presidential elections held on 8th August 2017 and 26th October 2017 were each and all invalid, null and void; and no government formed and/or president declared as a consequence thereof, and considering the neglible turnout in the presidential elections held on the latter date, can have constitutional authority or legitimacy to govern;
b) A Peoples Assembly be formed to discuss and determine the affairs of the country and recommend a pathway towards and for the achievement of the promise, aspirations, objectives and rights and freedoms provided by the Constitution of Kenya 2010;
c) The House and its membership will participate in the proceedings of the Peoples Assembly and will constitute a special college for the appointment or election of members, delegations and observers to the Peoples Assembly;
d) A truly independent electoral and boundaries commission be established with a view of holding a fresh presidential election on or before 9th February 2018;
e) The action and performance of constitutional commissions including the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission, the National Police Service, the National Intelligence Service, the Public Service Commission, the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission and the National Cohesion and Integration Commission be reviewed with the purpose of ensuring that the said commissions are independent to enable them protect the sovereignty of the people and to promote constitutionalism;
f) Appropriate measures be undertaken to safeguard and promote devolution and the organs and instruments of devolution including county assemblies and county governments and secure their financial viability and security with the ultimate objective of the creation of larger and autonomous devolved units within one indivisible sovereign nation; and
g) A review of the Constitution of Kenya 2010 be undertaken to reform the structure of the Executive and Parliament and devolution and to reinforce concrete measures for the promotion of inclusivity, the welfare of the marginalized, the advancement of women and youth, the eradication of corruption and poverty and to secure social justice, equality and fairness.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/1ODjHujF00hpjFCBPgNEK4GDAdhRYnqg9/edit?usp=docslist_api&filetype=msword
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What's the use of a special people's college in a NASA county? Isn't the county assembly exactly that?
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What's the use of a special people's college in a NASA county? Isn't the county assembly exactly that?
The whole idea is to launder NASWA hardline positions and paint them as coming from mwananichi as opposed to Otiende Amollo’s legal laboratory.
The other one is to give NASWA elected guys a moral right to receive their salo; they are busy representing their people bla bla
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Empodeocles, Let me get this straight-what I believe, I have been fed by NASA, and somehow, what you regurgitate here day in, day out is independent thinking. What makes you think that you have an independent mind and I don't?
The days when others like you had a monopoly on what is the truth and the way forward are long gone. Raila won in 2007, 2013 and 2017 and that is the truth as far as we are concerned. We will not accept and move on. Time is on our side and time will prove we were right all along. We reject all falsehoods and lectures by jubilee hypocrites with all the contempt that they deserve.
In January after Chebukati was appointed we were assured the rigging machinery had been decimated. Now the poor man must go. In 2022 it'll be the same story - the sophisticated machinery - after Raila's upteenth beating. He needs to let fresh ideas take root - instead of the stale boycott :) - like Bob Dole, Al Gore, Mitt Romney and other democrats.
Exactly.
That Raila lost to Uhuruto can only be blamed on the chaotic mess that was NASA.
And NASA, instead of taking responsibility for their own shortcomings, believe pushing the blame away will work wonders.
If NASA continues on this self-destructive path, Ruto might make it in 2022 (that is, if the MKM allow him...which I doubt).
Truth? You speak of truth while spouting what NASA has fed you without counter checking?
Example: gleefully attacking Ruto on the hustler jet when it's Rao who first started using it:
Raila was without a doubt robbed of his victory in 2007 but lost due to his own ineptitude in 2013 & 2017. Interestingly, without Ruto at his side organizing, he blew it both times. Food for thought, n'est pas? I don't think I even need bother mentioning Orengo's own words to Ranneberger on how hopeless Raila is as a manager.
I just hope you (and other NASA supporters) can drop this attitude that when I or others criticize Rao that I'm for Uhuruto. If NASA took criticism seriously and worked on their (Rao's) problems, we'd have crowned him PORK in August, second term. Yet here we are, still going around in circles yelling "Stolen elections". It's like listening to a broken record.
Sigh [emoji33]
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Empodeocles, Let me get this straight-what I believe, I have been fed by NASA, and somehow, what you regurgitate here day in, day out is independent thinking. What makes you think that you have an independent mind and I don't?
The days when others like you had a monopoly on what is the truth and the way forward are long gone. Raila won in 2007, 2013 and 2017 and that is the truth as far as we are concerned. We will not accept and move on. Time is on our side and time will prove we were right all along. We reject all falsehoods and lectures by jubilee hypocrites with all the contempt that they deserve.
In January after Chebukati was appointed we were assured the rigging machinery had been decimated. Now the poor man must go. In 2022 it'll be the same story - the sophisticated machinery - after Raila's upteenth beating. He needs to let fresh ideas take root - instead of the stale boycott :) - like Bob Dole, Al Gore, Mitt Romney and other democrats.
Exactly.
That Raila lost to Uhuruto can only be blamed on the chaotic mess that was NASA.
And NASA, instead of taking responsibility for their own shortcomings, believe pushing the blame away will work wonders.
If NASA continues on this self-destructive path, Ruto might make it in 2022 (that is, if the MKM allow him...which I doubt).
Truth? You speak of truth while spouting what NASA has fed you without counter checking?
Example: gleefully attacking Ruto on the hustler jet when it's Rao who first started using it:
Raila was without a doubt robbed of his victory in 2007 but lost due to his own ineptitude in 2013 & 2017. Interestingly, without Ruto at his side organizing, he blew it both times. Food for thought, n'est pas? I don't think I even need bother mentioning Orengo's own words to Ranneberger on how hopeless Raila is as a manager.
I just hope you (and other NASA supporters) can drop this attitude that when I or others criticize Rao that I'm for Uhuruto. If NASA took criticism seriously and worked on their (Rao's) problems, we'd have crowned him PORK in August, second term. Yet here we are, still going around in circles yelling "Stolen elections". It's like listening to a broken record.
Sigh [emoji33]
Because I see through the BS being peddled as politics by both Jubilee and NASA.
Also, it should be patently obvious that what both coalitions want is NOT empowerment for wanainchi but a chance to get to the feeding trough.
I highly respect your opinion, however much I disagree with it.
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Empodeocles, Let me get this straight-what I believe, I have been fed by NASA, and somehow, what you regurgitate here day in, day out is independent thinking. What makes you think that you have an independent mind and I don't?
The days when others like you had a monopoly on what is the truth and the way forward are long gone. Raila won in 2007, 2013 and 2017 and that is the truth as far as we are concerned. We will not accept and move on. Time is on our side and time will prove we were right all along. We reject all falsehoods and lectures by jubilee hypocrites with all the contempt that they deserve.
In January after Chebukati was appointed we were assured the rigging machinery had been decimated. Now the poor man must go. In 2022 it'll be the same story - the sophisticated machinery - after Raila's upteenth beating. He needs to let fresh ideas take root - instead of the stale boycott :) - like Bob Dole, Al Gore, Mitt Romney and other democrats.
Exactly.
That Raila lost to Uhuruto can only be blamed on the chaotic mess that was NASA.
And NASA, instead of taking responsibility for their own shortcomings, believe pushing the blame away will work wonders.
If NASA continues on this self-destructive path, Ruto might make it in 2022 (that is, if the MKM allow him...which I doubt).
Truth? You speak of truth while spouting what NASA has fed you without counter checking?
Example: gleefully attacking Ruto on the hustler jet when it's Rao who first started using it:
Raila was without a doubt robbed of his victory in 2007 but lost due to his own ineptitude in 2013 & 2017. Interestingly, without Ruto at his side organizing, he blew it both times. Food for thought, n'est pas? I don't think I even need bother mentioning Orengo's own words to Ranneberger on how hopeless Raila is as a manager.
I just hope you (and other NASA supporters) can drop this attitude that when I or others criticize Rao that I'm for Uhuruto. If NASA took criticism seriously and worked on their (Rao's) problems, we'd have crowned him PORK in August, second term. Yet here we are, still going around in circles yelling "Stolen elections". It's like listening to a broken record.
Sigh [emoji33]
Because I see through the BS being peddled as politics by both Jubilee and NASA.
Also, it should be patently obvious that what both coalitions want is NOT empowerment for wanainchi but a chance to get to the feeding trough.
I highly respect your opinion, however much I disagree with it.
I am sure you have not considered the fact that you may be wrong. There are very strong arguments to be made that NASA has actually politically empowered wanainchi and they now understand the electoral process much better and how their votes are stolen. When Ruto used to brag that 2017 elections was a forgone conclusion, he literally meant that because he had personal knowledge of the fact that the system was rigged. That rigged system is being dismantled as Wanainchi are being informed in the court and elsewhere. I with a whole bunch of Kenyans strongly believe that political empowerment of the people precedes economic empowerment and not the other way round as some others believe.
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I just want to see one historical example where development preceded institutionalism before I buy into the "economy before constitutionalism/institutionalism" biashara. If Paul Kagame drops dead today, can anyone guarantee that his successor will not re-introduce every vice he had banished within two years?
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PRESS STATEMENT:
NOVEMBER 8, 2017.
NASA DIRECTS MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT TO ATTEND COUNTY ASSEMBLY DEBATES ON PEOPLE’S ASSEMBLY MOTION:
Opposition Leader Raila Odinga has directed the Parliamentary wing of the National Resistance Movement of NASA to put off all engagements in Nairobi and attend sessions at the County Assemblies where the Motion on the establishment of a People’s Assembly will be going on starting tomorrow.
Mr. Odinga, who arrived in the US this evening, has asked the NRM to attend and stand in solidarity with county assemblies that have will be debating the motion.
The Opposition leader has asked NRM parliamentary wing to be at the assemblies beginning tomorrow and, where necessary, provide guidance to Members of County Assemblies on the Motion.
Raila said: “By and large, we are confident that our county assemblies are well-briefed on the Motion following our session with the governors and the MCAs will be equal to the task when the Motion is tabled tomorrow. Still, it is a new territory and we ask our members of the National Assembly and the Senate who have had more time to ventilate on this matter to show up at the counties tomorrow in solidarity and for guidance.”
The Motion was unveiled by NASA co-principals Musalia Mudavadi and Moses Wetangula yesterday.
It has since been dispatched to the following counties:
1. Mombasa
2. Kwale
3. Kilifi
4. Lamu
5. Taita Taveta
6. Tana River
7. Nairobi
8. Homa Bay
9. Migori
10. Kisumu
11. Siaya.
12. Busia
13. Kakamega.
14. Bungoma
15. Vihiga.
16. Kitui
17. Machakos
18. Makueni
19. Turkana.
The Motion is designed to pass the following resolutions:
a) The presidential elections held on 8th August 2017 and 26th October 2017 were each and all invalid, null and void; and no government formed and/or president declared as a consequence thereof, and considering the neglible turnout in the presidential elections held on the latter date, can have constitutional authority or legitimacy to govern;
b) A Peoples Assembly be formed to discuss and determine the affairs of the country and recommend a pathway towards and for the achievement of the promise, aspirations, objectives and rights and freedoms provided by the Constitution of Kenya 2010;
c) The House and its membership will participate in the proceedings of the People’s Assembly and will constitute a special college for the appointment or election of members, delegations and observers to the People’s Assembly;
d) A truly independent electoral and boundaries commission be established with a view of holding a fresh presidential election on or before 9th February 2018;
e) The action and performance of constitutional commissions including the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission, the National Police Service, the National Intelligence Service, the Public Service Commission, the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission and the National Cohesion and Integration Commission be reviewed with the purpose of ensuring that the said commissions are independent to enable them protect the sovereignty of the people and to promote constitutionalism;
f) Appropriate measures be undertaken to safeguard and promote devolution and the organs and instruments of devolution including county assemblies and county governments and secure their financial viability and security with the ultimate objective of the creation of larger and autonomous devolved units within one indivisible sovereign nation; and
g) A review of the Constitution of Kenya 2010 be undertaken to reform the structure of the Executive and Parliament and devolution and to reinforce concrete measures for the promotion of inclusivity, the welfare of the marginalized, the advancement of women and youth, the eradication of corruption and poverty and to secure social justice, equality and fairness.
DENNIS ONYANGO
NOVEMBER 8, 2017.
-
Empodeocles, Let me get this straight-what I believe, I have been fed by NASA, and somehow, what you regurgitate here day in, day out is independent thinking. What makes you think that you have an independent mind and I don't?
The days when others like you had a monopoly on what is the truth and the way forward are long gone. Raila won in 2007, 2013 and 2017 and that is the truth as far as we are concerned. We will not accept and move on. Time is on our side and time will prove we were right all along. We reject all falsehoods and lectures by jubilee hypocrites with all the contempt that they deserve.
In January after Chebukati was appointed we were assured the rigging machinery had been decimated. Now the poor man must go. In 2022 it'll be the same story - the sophisticated machinery - after Raila's upteenth beating. He needs to let fresh ideas take root - instead of the stale boycott :) - like Bob Dole, Al Gore, Mitt Romney and other democrats.
Exactly.
That Raila lost to Uhuruto can only be blamed on the chaotic mess that was NASA.
And NASA, instead of taking responsibility for their own shortcomings, believe pushing the blame away will work wonders.
If NASA continues on this self-destructive path, Ruto might make it in 2022 (that is, if the MKM allow him...which I doubt).
Truth? You speak of truth while spouting what NASA has fed you without counter checking?
Example: gleefully attacking Ruto on the hustler jet when it's Rao who first started using it:
Raila was without a doubt robbed of his victory in 2007 but lost due to his own ineptitude in 2013 & 2017. Interestingly, without Ruto at his side organizing, he blew it both times. Food for thought, n'est pas? I don't think I even need bother mentioning Orengo's own words to Ranneberger on how hopeless Raila is as a manager.
I just hope you (and other NASA supporters) can drop this attitude that when I or others criticize Rao that I'm for Uhuruto. If NASA took criticism seriously and worked on their (Rao's) problems, we'd have crowned him PORK in August, second term. Yet here we are, still going around in circles yelling "Stolen elections". It's like listening to a broken record.
Sigh [emoji33]
Because I see through the BS being peddled as politics by both Jubilee and NASA.
Also, it should be patently obvious that what both coalitions want is NOT empowerment for wanainchi but a chance to get to the feeding trough.
I highly respect your opinion, however much I disagree with it.
I am sure you have not considered the fact that you may be wrong. There are very strong arguments to be made that NASA has actually politically empowered wanainchi and they now understand the electoral process much better and how their votes are stolen. When Ruto used to brag that 2017 elections was a forgone conclusion, he literally meant that because he had personal knowledge of the fact that the system was rigged. That rigged system is being dismantled as Wanainchi are being informed in the court and elsewhere. I with a whole bunch of Kenyans strongly believe that political empowerment of the people precedes economic empowerment and not the other way round as some others believe.
Oh, I do consider that I could be very wrong in my analysis of these jokers we call leaders (note: from both coalitions).
But (and it's a big but), their past actions not to mention the methods of getting rich at the expense of the common folk speaks very loudly against them.
Again, I wonder, why would they be interested in changing a patronage system which favored them? What logical and reasonable purpose would it serve them to fully implement, say, chapter 6 of the constitution? How would they get their key financial supporters (the so-called tenderpreneurs) to rally behind them without allowing them to plunder the country?
I could go on and on but I trust you can see what I'm getting at.
Yet again, I repeat, I could be very wrong and NASA, when/if they get into power, would go after ALL the corruption suspects without fear or favor, even if said suspects helped them clinch power.
You really believe NASA would (forget Jubilee. It's a given they wouldn't)?
-
Kichwa is a progressive and lives on the right side of history. However he was asked a progressive question and had no answer
Very convenient that you've only supported all the progressive reforms with Odingas at the helm.
You must be facing really hard times seeing Raila at his sunset and without an odinga at the top.
I mean tell me - after Odinga died in 1994 - and Wamalwa who was equally progressive took over the party - why did you switch to NDP with Odinga :) - essentially a Luo party.
Why did you not stand up like Orengo, Okiko (blind dude from Siaya) and many progressive Luos - who opposed Raila and stuck with Kijana Wamalwa Or Paul Muite who supported Ford-K through thick and thin.
Okay skip that - when Odinga joined KANU and was Sec General of MOi - did you join him? Yes or NO.
And if you did - what was your take when he was in charge of beating up Orengos & others in "Mageuzi" Movement.
Back to our old debate of tribe v. ideology. I have been very consistent in my support for progressive movements, politicians and activists regardless of their tribe and I still do. In the Moi must go days, I worked with many Kenyans who wanted the same and we supported Kibaki until he changed. Then we worked with Ruto to remove Kibaki until Ruto left to fight against the new progressive katiba in 2010. I know its hard for a tribal political pundit like you but Raila and Jaramogi just happens to be luos who share my progressive political ideologies. Ruto right now is trying to drive this country back to Moi days and there is no way I would even consider supporting such a politician regardless of his/her tribe.
http://www.nipate.org/index.php?topic=5937.msg47335#msg47335 (http://www.nipate.org/index.php?topic=5937.msg47335#msg47335)
-
Robina, I avoided that question because it is a red herring and is only brought to obfuscate the issues at hand and to bring it discussion to the Odingas instead of change/reform. Why should we discuss who supported Raila or Orengo when they are on the same side today.
Kichwa is a progressive and lives on the right side of history. However he was asked a progressive question and had no answer
Very convenient that you've only supported all the progressive reforms with Odingas at the helm.
You must be facing really hard times seeing Raila at his sunset and without an odinga at the top.
I mean tell me - after Odinga died in 1994 - and Wamalwa who was equally progressive took over the party - why did you switch to NDP with Odinga :) - essentially a Luo party.
Why did you not stand up like Orengo, Okiko (blind dude from Siaya) and many progressive Luos - who opposed Raila and stuck with Kijana Wamalwa Or Paul Muite who supported Ford-K through thick and thin.
Okay skip that - when Odinga joined KANU and was Sec General of MOi - did you join him? Yes or NO.
And if you did - what was your take when he was in charge of beating up Orengos & others in "Mageuzi" Movement.
Back to our old debate of tribe v. ideology. I have been very consistent in my support for progressive movements, politicians and activists regardless of their tribe and I still do. In the Moi must go days, I worked with many Kenyans who wanted the same and we supported Kibaki until he changed. Then we worked with Ruto to remove Kibaki until Ruto left to fight against the new progressive katiba in 2010. I know its hard for a tribal political pundit like you but Raila and Jaramogi just happens to be luos who share my progressive political ideologies. Ruto right now is trying to drive this country back to Moi days and there is no way I would even consider supporting such a politician regardless of his/her tribe.
http://www.nipate.org/index.php?topic=5937.msg47335#msg47335 (http://www.nipate.org/index.php?topic=5937.msg47335#msg47335)
-
Empodeocles, Let me get this straight-what I believe, I have been fed by NASA, and somehow, what you regurgitate here day in, day out is independent thinking. What makes you think that you have an independent mind and I don't?
The days when others like you had a monopoly on what is the truth and the way forward are long gone. Raila won in 2007, 2013 and 2017 and that is the truth as far as we are concerned. We will not accept and move on. Time is on our side and time will prove we were right all along. We reject all falsehoods and lectures by jubilee hypocrites with all the contempt that they deserve.
In January after Chebukati was appointed we were assured the rigging machinery had been decimated. Now the poor man must go. In 2022 it'll be the same story - the sophisticated machinery - after Raila's upteenth beating. He needs to let fresh ideas take root - instead of the stale boycott :) - like Bob Dole, Al Gore, Mitt Romney and other democrats.
Exactly.
That Raila lost to Uhuruto can only be blamed on the chaotic mess that was NASA.
And NASA, instead of taking responsibility for their own shortcomings, believe pushing the blame away will work wonders.
If NASA continues on this self-destructive path, Ruto might make it in 2022 (that is, if the MKM allow him...which I doubt).
Truth? You speak of truth while spouting what NASA has fed you without counter checking?
Example: gleefully attacking Ruto on the hustler jet when it's Rao who first started using it:
Raila was without a doubt robbed of his victory in 2007 but lost due to his own ineptitude in 2013 & 2017. Interestingly, without Ruto at his side organizing, he blew it both times. Food for thought, n'est pas? I don't think I even need bother mentioning Orengo's own words to Ranneberger on how hopeless Raila is as a manager.
I just hope you (and other NASA supporters) can drop this attitude that when I or others criticize Rao that I'm for Uhuruto. If NASA took criticism seriously and worked on their (Rao's) problems, we'd have crowned him PORK in August, second term. Yet here we are, still going around in circles yelling "Stolen elections". It's like listening to a broken record.
Sigh [emoji33]
Because I see through the BS being peddled as politics by both Jubilee and NASA.
Also, it should be patently obvious that what both coalitions want is NOT empowerment for wanainchi but a chance to get to the feeding trough.
I highly respect your opinion, however much I disagree with it.
I am sure you have not considered the fact that you may be wrong. There are very strong arguments to be made that NASA has actually politically empowered wanainchi and they now understand the electoral process much better and how their votes are stolen. When Ruto used to brag that 2017 elections was a forgone conclusion, he literally meant that because he had personal knowledge of the fact that the system was rigged. That rigged system is being dismantled as Wanainchi are being informed in the court and elsewhere. I with a whole bunch of Kenyans strongly believe that political empowerment of the people precedes economic empowerment and not the other way round as some others believe.
Oh, I do consider that I could be very wrong in my analysis of these jokers we call leaders (note: from both coalitions).
But (and it's a big but), their past actions not to mention the methods of getting rich at the expense of the common folk speaks very loudly against them.
Again, I wonder, why would they be interested in changing a patronage system which favored them? What logical and reasonable purpose would it serve them to fully implement, say, chapter 6 of the constitution? How would they get their key financial supporters (the so-called tenderpreneurs) to rally behind them without allowing them to plunder the country?
I could go on and on but I trust you can see what I'm getting at.
Yet again, I repeat, I could be very wrong and NASA, when/if they get into power, would go after ALL the corruption suspects without fear or favor, even if said suspects helped them clinch power.
You really believe NASA would (forget Jubilee. It's a given they wouldn't)?
[/quote
I have been called naïve many times but I still believe that reforms can occur if we have free and fair elections where we can vote our leaders out and bring in new blood every so often. I do strongly believe that Ouruto are out to create an electoral autocracy where the system is rigged and the rigged system creates a mediocracy of our democracy, entrenches, impunity, corruption and tribalism. I therefore believe that NASA leadership would actually change things especially if they believe that they too can be voted out if they do not do the right thing. I choose reforms/change as opposed to revolutions but when people like arap Mashamba tries to create an electoral autocracy then I am for revolutions/secessions and any other forms of radical changes available if that is the only way out.
-
Empodeocles, Let me get this straight-what I believe, I have been fed by NASA, and somehow, what you regurgitate here day in, day out is independent thinking. What makes you think that you have an independent mind and I don't?
The days when others like you had a monopoly on what is the truth and the way forward are long gone. Raila won in 2007, 2013 and 2017 and that is the truth as far as we are concerned. We will not accept and move on. Time is on our side and time will prove we were right all along. We reject all falsehoods and lectures by jubilee hypocrites with all the contempt that they deserve.
In January after Chebukati was appointed we were assured the rigging machinery had been decimated. Now the poor man must go. In 2022 it'll be the same story - the sophisticated machinery - after Raila's upteenth beating. He needs to let fresh ideas take root - instead of the stale boycott :) - like Bob Dole, Al Gore, Mitt Romney and other democrats.
Exactly.
That Raila lost to Uhuruto can only be blamed on the chaotic mess that was NASA.
And NASA, instead of taking responsibility for their own shortcomings, believe pushing the blame away will work wonders.
If NASA continues on this self-destructive path, Ruto might make it in 2022 (that is, if the MKM allow him...which I doubt).
Truth? You speak of truth while spouting what NASA has fed you without counter checking?
Example: gleefully attacking Ruto on the hustler jet when it's Rao who first started using it:
Raila was without a doubt robbed of his victory in 2007 but lost due to his own ineptitude in 2013 & 2017. Interestingly, without Ruto at his side organizing, he blew it both times. Food for thought, n'est pas? I don't think I even need bother mentioning Orengo's own words to Ranneberger on how hopeless Raila is as a manager.
I just hope you (and other NASA supporters) can drop this attitude that when I or others criticize Rao that I'm for Uhuruto. If NASA took criticism seriously and worked on their (Rao's) problems, we'd have crowned him PORK in August, second term. Yet here we are, still going around in circles yelling "Stolen elections". It's like listening to a broken record.
Sigh [emoji33]
Because I see through the BS being peddled as politics by both Jubilee and NASA.
Also, it should be patently obvious that what both coalitions want is NOT empowerment for wanainchi but a chance to get to the feeding trough.
I highly respect your opinion, however much I disagree with it.
I am sure you have not considered the fact that you may be wrong. There are very strong arguments to be made that NASA has actually politically empowered wanainchi and they now understand the electoral process much better and how their votes are stolen. When Ruto used to brag that 2017 elections was a forgone conclusion, he literally meant that because he had personal knowledge of the fact that the system was rigged. That rigged system is being dismantled as Wanainchi are being informed in the court and elsewhere. I with a whole bunch of Kenyans strongly believe that political empowerment of the people precedes economic empowerment and not the other way round as some others believe.
Oh, I do consider that I could be very wrong in my analysis of these jokers we call leaders (note: from both coalitions).
But (and it's a big but), their past actions not to mention the methods of getting rich at the expense of the common folk speaks very loudly against them.
Again, I wonder, why would they be interested in changing a patronage system which favored them? What logical and reasonable purpose would it serve them to fully implement, say, chapter 6 of the constitution? How would they get their key financial supporters (the so-called tenderpreneurs) to rally behind them without allowing them to plunder the country?
I could go on and on but I trust you can see what I'm getting at.
Yet again, I repeat, I could be very wrong and NASA, when/if they get into power, would go after ALL the corruption suspects without fear or favor, even if said suspects helped them clinch power.
You really believe NASA would (forget Jubilee. It's a given they wouldn't)?
[/quote
I have been called naïve many times but I still believe that reforms can occur if we have free and fair elections where we can vote our leaders out and bring in new blood every so often. I do strongly believe that Ouruto are out to create an electoral autocracy where the system is rigged and the rigged system creates a mediocracy of our democracy, entrenches, impunity, corruption and tribalism. I therefore believe that NASA leadership would actually change things especially if they believe that they too can be voted out if they do not do the right thing. I choose reforms/change as opposed to revolutions but when people like arap Mashamba tries to create an electoral autocracy then I am for revolutions/secessions and any other forms of radical changes available if that is the only way out.
Understood.
But you're focusing on Uhuruto only, as they're the only problem.
Given: a broken down bus. Changing the driver and tout (Uhuruto) with another set won't magically fix the bus. The bus needs qualified mechanics to repair it.
Yet NASA is composed and supported by rejects/tenderpreneurs from the KANU, PNU, etc eras, the exact same people who helped ruin the bus.
It's fallacious to even image they're capable, not to mention even willing, to fix it. That's the state we find ourselves in and why I'm so skeptical of NASA taking us anywhere.
-
Kichwa my point was Odinga is no saint and your support of him is not a standard for progressive politics. He's just another selfish politician after power by all means.
Kenya with a new progressive constitution does not need new reforms. Let alone a transitional government or a kangaroo people's assembly. All our institutions are new literally! And those calling for their overhaul were squarely involved in crafting them 8) These autocratic losers need to retire or fight another day.
-
Kichwa has never claimed Raila was a saint. No one ever has. The closest I've seen of such weird claims re politicians is the suggestion that one Arap Mashamba would a fine benevolent dictator make.
-
Kichwa has never claimed Raila was a saint. No one ever has. The closest I've seen of such weird claims re politicians is the suggestion that one Arap Mashamba would a fine benevolent dictator make.
True, Kichwa hasn't.
But others have, well, gone overboard:
But I fear Ruto by far more than Raila as president.
-
Kichwa has never claimed Raila was a saint. No one ever has. The closest I've seen of such weird claims re politicians is the suggestion that one Arap Mashamba would a fine benevolent dictator make.
True, Kichwa hasn't.
But others have, well, gone overboard:
But I fear Ruto by far more than Raila as president.
You will find cookie sorts like that everywhere. Ive seen enough uthamaki dribble to make one puke over the past year. Thing is, you folk like to make declarations that RAila is this boogeyman only Kyuks and such seem to have the magic to see. And then you accuse others of swallowing prpaganda blindly which is just ironic. Please give me examples of this great evil so I may appreciate this special fear. The man is no saint and most Kenyans can see: But he has PROVEN his progressive credentials by blood and toil over a long time before the nation's eye and that is why he has won a huge following well beyond his tribal cocoon unlike Arapa Mashamba and the tipsy one.
So when you guys simply make declarations of faith that he's just as bad as the rest without giving him the chance to lead and then when people who have been following politics for 15 years simply dont swallow that for the simple reason that they have not seen it, and then you accuse them of lack of independence (as opposed to your supposed objectivity) all you doing is demanding that others replace their prejudices with yours. There's no objectivity or independence to brag about here.
-
Kichwa has never claimed Raila was a saint. No one ever has. The closest I've seen of such weird claims re politicians is the suggestion that one Arap Mashamba would a fine benevolent dictator make.
True, Kichwa hasn't.
But others have, well, gone overboard:
But I fear Ruto by far more than Raila as president.
You will find cookie sorts like that everywhere. Ive seen enough uthamaki dribble to make one puke over the past year. Thing is, you folk like to make declarations that RAila is this boogeyman only Kyuks and such seem to have the magic to see. And then you accuse others of swallowing prpaganda blindly which is just ironic. Please give me examples of this great evil so I may appreciate this special fear. The man is no saint and most Kenyans can see: But he has PROVEN his progressive credentials by blood and toil over a long time before the nation's eye and that is why he has won a huge following well beyond his tribal cocoon unlike Arapa Mashamba and the tipsy one.
So when you guys simply make declarations of faith that he's just as bad as the rest without giving him the chance to lead and then when people who have been following politics for 15 years simply dont swallow that for the simple reason that they have not seen it, and then you accuse them of lack of independence (as opposed to your supposed objectivity) all you doing is demanding that others replace their prejudices with yours. There's no objectivity or independence to brag about here.
Babu is not a crook definitely and he has been out of power for a while not to mention his 5yrs in NARA he was basically Kibaki’s b***h so nothing much can be said. Back then he attempted to purge corruption.
He’s up there above Jubilee and what not.
What harshly reminds me thet he’s no different are two things;
1. Sleeping with crooks like One-Jiggy
2. Indifference to &/ protection of corrupt Opposition governors- Lusaka,Oparanya and Kingi...
#1 is why NASWA cooked two manifestos with one full of grand infrastructure projects. Ndii has always decried these and he stammered to distinguish between the two documents not disowning either.
#2 attracts the standard retort that Jubilee was persecuting problematic governors and innocent-till-proven-guilty mantra bla de bla. But waMajuu was never afforded the same kid gloves nor Mafya House thugs.
It’s politics I elewa
Reforms credentials? Lots of them. But he easily went to bed with Kanu and only bolted when it was clear he was not the anointed. One can say the creds are largely driven by personal ambitions and not any other good. This is not bad, and nobody should lie to you that no politician is unflattered by the trappings of power, but it makes Babu just another negro politician.
Why I at times think Babu would make a better President is the fact that corruption runs between the two main ruling tribes. The disruption by an outsider would give Kenia a serious boost. Kibaki walked into power in 2003 when corruption was largely a Kale affair. That’s why he really shone in his first few years before avarice got the best of his new gang. In my fantasies, I hope graft does not follow some musical chairs.
-
A constitution is just paper if it is not defended by men and women of integrity and an informed citizenry. The progressive constitution on its own will not prevent men like Ruto from creating an electoral autocracy which would make Kenyan elections a forgone conclusion in favor of certain people for eaons. If you are satisfied with that direction Kenya is taking where supreme courts cannot meet a quorum because of intimidation and the legislature as an appendage of the executive branch; a Kenya where Ruto feel comfortable promising us that the elections of 2022 and 2027 are a forgone conclusion and where Ruto is also parading our dear leader for 2032, then more power to you. I have noticed that you that you have decided to sweep such concerns under the rug and is making "they are all bad leaders" arguments instead. Such arguments are designed to protect the status quo and I do not expect them for people who want to change or reform things. What I can assure you if that is that if we do not manage to change that trajectory then we will not be in the same country by 2022.
Kichwa my point was Odinga is no saint and your support of him is not a standard for progressive politics. He's just another selfish politician after power by all means.
Kenya with a new progressive constitution does not need new reforms. Let alone a transitional government or a kangaroo people's assembly. All our institutions are new literally! And those calling for their overhaul were squarely involved in crafting them 8) These autocratic losers need to retire or fight another day.
-
Babu is not a crook definitely and he has been out of power for a while not to mention his 5yrs in NARA he was basically Kibaki’s b***h so nothing much can be said. Back then he attempted to purge corruption.
He’s up there above Jubilee and what not.
What harshly reminds me thet he’s no different are two things;
1. Sleeping with crooks like One-Jiggy
2. Indifference to &/ protection of corrupt Opposition governors- Lusaka,Oparanya and Kingi...
#1 is why NASWA cooked two manifestos with one full of grand infrastructure projects. Ndii has always decried these and he stammered to distinguish between the two documents not disowning either.
#2 attracts the standard retort that Jubilee was persecuting problematic governors and innocent-till-proven-guilty mantra bla de bla. But waMajuu was never afforded the same kid gloves nor Mafya House thugs.
It’s politics I elewa
Reforms credentials? Lots of them. But he easily went to bed with Kanu and only bolted when it was clear he was not the anointed. One can say the creds are largely driven by personal ambitions and not any other good. This is not bad, and nobody should lie to you that no politician is unflattered by the trappings of power, but it makes Babu just another negro politician.
Why I at times think Babu would make a better President is the fact that corruption runs between the two main ruling tribes. The disruption by an outsider would give Kenia a serious boost. Kibaki walked into power in 2003 when corruption was largely a Kale affair. That’s why he really shone in his first few years before avarice got the best of his new gang.
This is a much fairer (yes, objective) depiction of the man. None of that boogeyman rubbish Empedocles appears to have swallowed with koolaid. Also none of that false (yes, FALSE) moral equivalence drawn with Arap Mashamba or kamwana. Even with these very truthful criticisms, he's still by orders of magnitude, a much better option. If he had become President under KANU and allowed all the reforms via KANU including new constitution I would never mind it one bit. KANU was just a party. An instrument. Before Kamwana was co-opted by the mt. Kenya dark forces he had began doing some very good work, reforming KANU in the first three years of NARC.
Being the headache RAO is, it would be very easy to get rid of him with a 50 billion bribe, just make him disappear for good. Its not like Kamwana would mind. That this has not happened simply makes me place my bets on him re our institutional growth over any other politician around at this time. Not because HE will do one thing to make them grow...nope! All he has to do is provide the space by not interfereing. There are tonnes of reformers under NASA including many impressive Kyuks for this reason alone. They know he would ALLOW them to do their work. And that's all tjat needs to happen once you have a good foundation in laws; its an executive that does not interfere.
Ironically, it's Jubilee and friends (ancestors), that have ensured the mythical stature of Raila in Kenyan politics by bribing and intimaditing every other option into submission/compliance, making the defiant Raila stand out as some sort of otherwordly figure: simply by persistent defiance. Beggars are not choosers, and so Raila has become "Baba" to Kenya's many political beggars as the result of the elites' determination to destroy or co-opt any competitors or threats leaving him as the only formidable challenger to their plans to never let us actually become truly institutional and rule of law based.
-
Babu is not a crook definitely and he has been out of power for a while not to mention his 5yrs in NARA he was basically Kibaki’s b***h so nothing much can be said. Back then he attempted to purge corruption.
He’s up there above Jubilee and what not.
What harshly reminds me thet he’s no different are two things;
1. Sleeping with crooks like One-Jiggy
2. Indifference to &/ protection of corrupt Opposition governors- Lusaka,Oparanya and Kingi...
#1 is why NASWA cooked two manifestos with one full of grand infrastructure projects. Ndii has always decried these and he stammered to distinguish between the two documents not disowning either.
#2 attracts the standard retort that Jubilee was persecuting problematic governors and innocent-till-proven-guilty mantra bla de bla. But waMajuu was never afforded the same kid gloves nor Mafya House thugs.
It’s politics I elewa
Reforms credentials? Lots of them. But he easily went to bed with Kanu and only bolted when it was clear he was not the anointed. One can say the creds are largely driven by personal ambitions and not any other good. This is not bad, and nobody should lie to you that no politician is unflattered by the trappings of power, but it makes Babu just another negro politician.
Why I at times think Babu would make a better President is the fact that corruption runs between the two main ruling tribes. The disruption by an outsider would give Kenia a serious boost. Kibaki walked into power in 2003 when corruption was largely a Kale affair. That’s why he really shone in his first few years before avarice got the best of his new gang.
This is a much fairer (yes, objective) depiction of the man. None of that boogeyman rubbish Empedocles appears to have swallowed with koolaid. Also none of that false (yes, FALSE) moral equivalence drawn with Arap Mashamba or kamwana. Even with these very truthful criticisms, he's still by orders of magnitude, a much better option.
Being the headache he is, it would be very easy to get rid of him with a 50 billion bribe, just make him disappear for good. Its not like Kamwana would mind. That this has not happened simply makes me place my bets on him re our institutional growth over any other politician around at this time. Not because HE will do one thing to make them grow...nope! All he has to do is provide the space by not interfereing. There are tonnes of reformers under NASA including many impressive Kyuks for this reason alone. They know he would ALLOW them to do their work. And that's all tjat needs to happen once you have a good foundation in laws; its an executive that does not interfere.
Ironically, it's Jubilee and frienda (ancestors), that have ensured the mythical stature of Raila in Kenyan politics by bribing and intimaditing every other option into submission/compliance, making the defiant Raila stand out as some sort of otherwordly figure: simply by persistent defiance. Beggars are not choosers, and so Raila has become "Baba" to Kenya's many political beggars as the result of the elites' determination to destroy or co-opt any competitors or threats leaving him as the only formidable challenger.
It’s quite possible the only reason he rejects bribes is because he believes he can assume power and get access to much more. In short, that’s a very weak test of his integrity
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Kichwa has never claimed Raila was a saint. No one ever has. The closest I've seen of such weird claims re politicians is the suggestion that one Arap Mashamba would a fine benevolent dictator make.
True, Kichwa hasn't.
But others have, well, gone overboard:
But I fear Ruto by far more than Raila as president.
You will find cookie sorts like that everywhere. Ive seen enough uthamaki dribble to make one puke over the past year. Thing is, you folk like to make declarations that RAila is this boogeyman only Kyuks and such seem to have the magic to see. And then you accuse others of swallowing prpaganda blindly which is just ironic. Please give me examples of this great evil so I may appreciate this special fear. The man is no saint and most Kenyans can see: But he has PROVEN his progressive credentials by blood and toil over a long time before the nation's eye and that is why he has won a huge following well beyond his tribal cocoon unlike Arapa Mashamba and the tipsy one.
So when you guys simply make declarations of faith that he's just as bad as the rest without giving him the chance to lead and then when people who have been following politics for 15 years simply dont swallow that for the simple reason that they have not seen it, and then you accuse them of lack of independence (as opposed to your supposed objectivity) all you doing is demanding that others replace their prejudices with yours. There's no objectivity or independence to brag about here.
Whom exactly do you mean by "you guys"?
Again, the you're either NASA or Jubilee nonsense doesn't work with me. I'm against both coalitions, consider them both full of charlatans. Kapisch?
But you're right, rabid sycophants for both coalitions do exist, no denying that. Yet that doesn't make one or the other any better. They're both repugnant.
The subject was on Rao and that's what I was responding to.
Peace?
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vooke, possible, not probable. I mean, this struggle to get access is an uphill task to put it mildly, so to assume money is the motivator makes little sense to me. Just raise him his price. Even 100 billion. If money is it, money will make him go away.
Empedocles by "you guys" I mean people who tell us to believe without evidence that we should fear RAILA and belueve he is exactly like those caught doing bad things, despite him never actually doing that stuff. We are supposed to fear based on faith. You may hate Jubilee too but still this stance should be supported. Why is Raila supposed to be this horrible danger the rest of us have not yet seen?
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vooke, possible, not probable. I mean, this struggle to get access is an uphill task to put it mildly, so to assume money is the motivator makes little sense to me. Just raise him his price. Even 100 billion. If money is it, mobey will make him go away.
Emodocles by "you guys" I mean people who tell us to belueve without evidence that we should fear RAILA and belueve he is exactly like those caught doing bad things, despite him never actually doing that stuff. We are supposed to fear based on faith. You may hate Jubilee too but still this stance should be supported. Why is Raila supposed to be this horrible danger the rest of us have not yet seen?
2007-2009 I was in the outer inner fringes of ODM. What I personally experienced convinced me that NASA, just like Jubilee, is simply another reincarnation of KANU.
Rao may (I emphasize the "may") have started out as a good guy. But the realities of our politics seduced him to the dark side, as Yoda would say.
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A constitution is just paper if it is not defended by men and women of integrity and an informed citizenry. The progressive constitution on its own will not prevent men like Ruto from creating an electoral autocracy which would make Kenyan elections a forgone conclusion in favor of certain people for eaons. If you are satisfied with that direction Kenya is taking where supreme courts cannot meet a quorum because of intimidation and the legislature as an appendage of the executive branch; a Kenya where Ruto feel comfortable promising us that the elections of 2022 and 2027 are a forgone conclusion and where Ruto is also parading our dear leader for 2032, then more power to you. I have noticed that you that you have decided to sweep such concerns under the rug and is making "they are all bad leaders" arguments instead. Such arguments are designed to protect the status quo and I do not expect them for people who want to change or reform things. What I can assure you if that is that if we do not manage to change that trajectory then we will not be in the same country by 2022.
Kichwa,
The term electoral autocracy is the latest empty vocabulary being thrown around. Behind it is the real fear of a permanent domineering and menacing tribal coalition of RVGEMA. It does not matter how free or fair elections are, there will always exist the ‘risk’ of tribal coalitions and there’s nothing you can do about it. Don’t forget NASWA is equally a tribal coalition. What makes you think that a parliamentary system would be immune from a similar coalition? What if RVGEMA MPigs ganged to push their own President and PM?
Succession politics is another red herring. Babu wooed Kalonzo by promising to support him in 2022. Beats me why you don’t see the irony of berating RVGEMA 2022 and beyond plans while supporting Babu
Legislature is an appendage of Executive? Nonsense. Since 2002 we entered the era of larger political parties and then coalitions. These are always going to pursue their own interest in and out of parliament. The fact that NASWA and all its constituent parties are still arguing about who gets what seat in parliament is a good example of this. I can assure you something, if NASWA had the same majority in parliament, Babu was president Elect, his word would heavily if not entirely determine who gets what in parliament.
I don’t celebrate this marriage of Legislature and Executive but I don’t pretend that Babu would handle it differently.
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vooke, possible, not probable. I mean, this struggle to get access is an uphill task to put it mildly, so to assume money is the motivator makes little sense to me. Just raise him his price. Even 100 billion. If money is it, money will make him go away.
Money, then power, then personal nirvana or something.
I mean the list of perks that come with presidency that are out of reach except when you are in office is endless. So it’s not an either-money-or-Public-service thing
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If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.
They call Kibaki a coward/softie because he did care about a name, all his other faults notwithstanding. Had he known what was gonna transpire in early 2008 he probably would not have done some things. Some in power now dont care about preserving a name and so to some, they are "brave", "tough" unlike Kifaki.
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If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.
Isn't that what all demagogues want?
Careful, I'm not saying Rao is one.
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If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.
Isn't that what all demagogues want?
Careful, I'm not saying Rao is one.
They dont all need it. Some just want power and money. Full stop. Recognition is not that necessary although it would be nice. All politicians want simething for themselves and from where I stand, I judge those would be better for me who need to look good (which will motivate them to do some good things or at least avoid very bad things) than those who couldnt care less if they look like lil Kim of N. Korea as long as they get their way. They may both die and go to the same hell but they will not rule the same way.
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If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.
Isn't that what all demagogues want?
Careful, I'm not saying Rao is one.
They dont all want it. Some just want power and money. Full stop. Recognition is not that necessary although it would be nice. All politicians want simething for themselves and from where I stand, I judge those would be better for me who need to look good (which will motivate them to do some good things or at least avoid very bad things) than those who couldnt care less if they look like lil Kim of N. Korea as long as they get their way. They may both die and go to the same hell but they will not rule the same way.
Well put.
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If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.
They call Kibaki a coward/softie because he did care about a name, all his other faults notwithstanding. Had he known what was gonna transpire in early 2008 he probably would not have done some things. Some in power now dont care about preserving a name and so to some, they are "brave", "tough" unlike Kifaki.
What legacy was he pursuing when joining Kanu,and only bolting when he realized he had been duped?
The fact that he compromised all he stood for to work with the man who detained him and who he fought all those years is all I need to know he’s in it for himself.
It has morphed into a personal quest to get to the highest office.
Principles/ideologies are secondary
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If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.
They call Kibaki a coward/softie because he did care about a name, all his other faults notwithstanding. Had he known what was gonna transpire in early 2008 he probably would not have done some things. Some in power now dont care about preserving a name and so to some, they are "brave", "tough" unlike Kifaki.
What legacy was he pursuing when joining Kanu,and only bolting when he realized he had been duped?
The fact that he compromised all he stood for to work with the man who detained him and who he fought all those years is all I need to know he’s in it for himself.
It has morphed into a personal quest to get to the highest office.
Principles/ideologies are secondary
Exactly what I meant when I wrote he was seduced. At the time he joined Moi, as Sec Gen of KANU no less and a cabinet minister to boot, that's when he became seriously loaded.
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The problem I have with this argument that "they are all the same" is that it is deceptively coined to appear neutral but its ultimate effect is to maintain the status quo and therefore I do not consider it neutral but a clever and a dishonest support for the jubilee government. Those who make this argument cleverly pretend to agree with us on the diagnosis of the problems that Kenya has but when we suggest a change in leadership they quickly pounce on demonizing the opposition and calling them all kinds of names to discredit them as alternatives to the current leaders. I am more comfortable with the honesty of RV Pundit in his support of this regime warts and all. For example, RV pundit is honest enough to admit publicly that this regime will go to the extent of forcing another SCOK lack of quorum if it believes it that it may lose the current petitions challenging the October 26, 2017 elections. I therefore appreciate RV pundits open and honest representation of the jubilee regime than the dishonest argument that "they are all the same- so let us keep the status quo and move on".
If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.
They call Kibaki a coward/softie because he did care about a name, all his other faults notwithstanding. Had he known what was gonna transpire in early 2008 he probably would not have done some things. Some in power now dont care about preserving a name and so to some, they are "brave", "tough" unlike Kifaki.
What legacy was he pursuing when joining Kanu,and only bolting when he realized he had been duped?
The fact that he compromised all he stood for to work with the man who detained him and who he fought all those years is all I need to know he’s in it for himself.
It has morphed into a personal quest to get to the highest office.
Principles/ideologies are secondary
Exactly what I meant when I wrote he was seduced. At the time he joined Moi, as Sec Gen of KANU no less and a cabinet minister to boot, that's when he became seriously loaded.
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The problem I have with this argument that "they are all the same" is that it is deceptively coined to appear neutral but its ultimate effect is to maintain the status quo and therefore I do not consider it neutral but a clever and a dishonest support for the jubilee government. Those who make this argument cleverly pretend to agree with us on the diagnosis of the problems that Kenya has but when we suggest a change in leadership they quickly pounce on demonizing the opposition and calling them all kinds of names to discredit them as alternatives to the current leaders. I am more comfortable with the honesty of RV Pundit in his support of this regime warts and all. For example, RV pundit is honest enough to admit publicly that this regime will go to the extent of forcing another SCOK lack of quorum if it believes it that it may lose the current petitions challenging the October 26, 2017 elections. I therefore appreciate RV pundits open and honest representation of the jubilee regime than the dishonest argument that "they are all the same- so let us keep the status quo and move on".
Be grateful there’s always someone ready to wake you up from your fantasies that anything but the current regime is better.
Opposition did not just fall from heaven; they are somewhat tested though not in the scale of the thugs in power.
Moi lamented how divisive multiparty politics would be probably out of self preservation instincts but in retrospect he had a point. Similarly,many cynical of regime change are perhaps regime sympathizers but you’ll need to look at their arguments and not just motives. Moonki has made good arguments supporting his cynicism
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It's good to be aware of Raila and his weaknesses. Even if they are common human weaknesses. But it cannot be at the expense of the actual problem. Raila might be crazy, but he is not in power. He is not the guy intimidating and threatening the judiciary. Or overseeing any of the excesses of the past five years. He is important because he is the man with the best chance of scuttling the plans those planning to roll back the meager progress Kenya has experienced in its democratic space; that is more important IMO.
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If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.
Isn't that what all demagogues want?
Careful, I'm not saying Rao is one.
They dont all need it. Some just want power and money. Full stop. Recognition is not that necessary although it would be nice. All politicians want simething for themselves and from where I stand, I judge those would be better for me who need to look good (which will motivate them to do some good things or at least avoid very bad things) than those who couldnt care less if they look like lil Kim of N. Korea as long as they get their way. They may both die and go to the same hell but they will not rule the same way.
Sounds like Ruto and his brilliant sidekicks like Farouk Kibet.
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If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.
They call Kibaki a coward/softie because he did care about a name, all his other faults notwithstanding. Had he known what was gonna transpire in early 2008 he probably would not have done some things. Some in power now dont care about preserving a name and so to some, they are "brave", "tough" unlike Kifaki.
What legacy was he pursuing when joining Kanu,and only bolting when he realized he had been duped?
The fact that he compromised all he stood for to work with the man who detained him and who he fought all those years is all I need to know he’s in it for himself.
It has morphed into a personal quest to get to the highest office.
Principles/ideologies are secondary
I don't see how he compromised "all he stood for" just by joing government: How exactly did he do that? Just be being in government? Did he become a Moi sycophant while in Govt? Did he start fighting democracy and the quest for a new constitution? What did he actually do to destroy what he had been fighting for those few years he was in govt?
He joined KANU as a quick route to the presidency. Sure. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together can see that. Moi's impending exit created a fantabulous opportunity. Since he didn't become president, we have no idea what kind of things he intended to do as president. And when Moi came up with the plot to continue KANU the same way with Uhuru, he bolted with all the young turks.
I see opportunism there. Loads of it. I am unsure how this meant he had betrayed the stuff he was fighting for: democracy, new constitution, devolution, etc. Perhaps an explanation/examples would help.
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The problem I have with this argument that "they are all the same" is that it is deceptively coined to appear neutral but its ultimate effect is to maintain the status quo and therefore I do not consider it neutral but a clever and a dishonest support for the jubilee government. Those who make this argument cleverly pretend to agree with us on the diagnosis of the problems that Kenya has but when we suggest a change in leadership they quickly pounce on demonizing the opposition and calling them all kinds of names to discredit them as alternatives to the current leaders. I am more comfortable with the honesty of RV Pundit in his support of this regime warts and all. For example, RV pundit is honest enough to admit publicly that this regime will go to the extent of forcing another SCOK lack of quorum if it believes it that it may lose the current petitions challenging the October 26, 2017 elections. I therefore appreciate RV pundits open and honest representation of the jubilee regime than the dishonest argument that "they are all the same- so let us keep the status quo and move on".
Hear hear.
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If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.
They call Kibaki a coward/softie because he did care about a name, all his other faults notwithstanding. Had he known what was gonna transpire in early 2008 he probably would not have done some things. Some in power now dont care about preserving a name and so to some, they are "brave", "tough" unlike Kifaki.
What legacy was he pursuing when joining Kanu,and only bolting when he realized he had been duped?
The fact that he compromised all he stood for to work with the man who detained him and who he fought all those years is all I need to know he’s in it for himself.
It has morphed into a personal quest to get to the highest office.
Principles/ideologies are secondary
I don't see how he compromised "all he stood for" just by joing government: How exactly did he do that? Just be being in government? Did he become a Moi sycophant while in Govt? Did he start fighting democracy and the quest for a new constitution? What did he actually do to destroy what he had been fighting for those few years he was in govt?
He joined KANU as a quick route to the presidency. Sure. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together can see that. Moi's impending exit created a fantabulous opportunity. Since he didn't become president, we have no idea what kind of things he intended to do as president. And when Moi came up with the plot to continue KANU the same way with Uhuru, he bolted with all the young turks.
I see opportunism there. Loads of it. I am unsure how this meant he had betrayed the stuff he was fighting for: democracy, new constitution, devolution, etc. Perhaps an explanation/examples would help.
Every other progressive mind was busy resisting Moism and Baba went to bed with him and you don’t see how that goes against everything he stood for?
Ok!
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I don't see how he compromised "all he stood for" just by joing government: How exactly did he do that? Just be being in government? Did he become a Moi sycophant while in Govt? Did he start fighting democracy and the quest for a new constitution? What did he actually do to destroy what he had been fighting for those few years he was in govt?
He joined KANU as a quick route to the presidency. Sure. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together can see that. Moi's impending exit created a fantabulous opportunity. Since he didn't become president, we have no idea what kind of things he intended to do as president. And when Moi came up with the plot to continue KANU the same way with Uhuru, he bolted with all the young turks.
I see opportunism there. Loads of it. I am unsure how this meant he had betrayed the stuff he was fighting for: democracy, new constitution, devolution, etc. Perhaps an explanation/examples would help.
Every other progressive mind was busy resisting Moism and Baba went to bed with him and you don’t see how that goes against everything he stood for?
Ok!
To be fair, I was in primary school and not the least bit interested in RAO, Moi or anyone in the world of politics, so my memory is fuzzy on the details. I just don't get how that alone is supposed to undercut everything else he did and I've been following him since 2002 elections and seen no signs of the lurking evil behind the man we are supposed to fear.
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I don't see how he compromised "all he stood for" just by joing government: How exactly did he do that? Just be being in government? Did he become a Moi sycophant while in Govt? Did he start fighting democracy and the quest for a new constitution? What did he actually do to destroy what he had been fighting for those few years he was in govt?
He joined KANU as a quick route to the presidency. Sure. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together can see that. Moi's impending exit created a fantabulous opportunity. Since he didn't become president, we have no idea what kind of things he intended to do as president. And when Moi came up with the plot to continue KANU the same way with Uhuru, he bolted with all the young turks.
I see opportunism there. Loads of it. I am unsure how this meant he had betrayed the stuff he was fighting for: democracy, new constitution, devolution, etc. Perhaps an explanation/examples would help.
Every other progressive mind was busy resisting Moism and Baba went to bed with him and you don’t see how that goes against everything he stood for?
Ok!
To be fair, I was in primary school and not the least bit interested in RAO, Moi or anyone in the world of politics, so my memory is fuzzy on the details. I just don't get how that alone is supposed to undercut everything else he did and I've been following him since 2002 elections and seen no signs of the lurking evil behind the man we are supposed to fear.
Understood.
Ok here's the short version.
Moi was a bad boy and second liberation the entailed opposing him. Explains why all the liberation heroes were anti-Moi and the Kanu guys ended up lefting the party.
Baba after leaving detention was on the right side of history joining opposition politics. He fared well between 92 and 97 especially in pursuing Goldenberg scandal in parliament.
There's no way any reformer was going to make any meaningful progress while in Kanu as that was the status quo.
Babu's spin to his shameful joining Kanu was that he went to reforms the party from inside bla bla and he left when it proved impossible. We all know that's a fat lie as he was perfectly at ease with all its xcesses. He honestly believed Moi would anoint him as Kanu candidate in 2002 elections. Moi took his sweet time meandering all over prompting George Saitoti to lament 'there comes a time....'
The cue to left Kanu evidently tells you what took him there.
I must say that his greed/rage served the country well for it fired up Kibaki's campaign though in my opinion, Kibaki's NAK was formidable as it were.
I also think since leaving Kanu he has redeemed himself.
Reason that won't go away is because it is a constant reminder that Babu has frailties you see in politicians so we should temper our expectations. Yes, temper our expectations of the man.
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if that’s all you have against RAO then I agree with you. You cannot put place all the hopes of change on the shoulders of any one person, RAO, included. We need people like RAO to help us build the institutions that we can place our hopes on. This regime has destroyed the parliament, IEBC, and may have destroyed the SCOK with that forced lack of quorum. We need RAO not because he is a perfect human being but because we believe he has a lot of respect for the institutions that upholds and secures a democracy and will not harm/destroy it the way ouruto has.
I don't see how he compromised "all he stood for" just by joing government: How exactly did he do that? Just be being in government? Did he become a Moi sycophant while in Govt? Did he start fighting democracy and the quest for a new constitution? What did he actually do to destroy what he had been fighting for those few years he was in govt?
He joined KANU as a quick route to the presidency. Sure. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together can see that. Moi's impending exit created a fantabulous opportunity. Since he didn't become president, we have no idea what kind of things he intended to do as president. And when Moi came up with the plot to continue KANU the same way with Uhuru, he bolted with all the young turks.
I see opportunism there. Loads of it. I am unsure how this meant he had betrayed the stuff he was fighting for: democracy, new constitution, devolution, etc. Perhaps an explanation/examples would help.
Every other progressive mind was busy resisting Moism and Baba went to bed with him and you don’t see how that goes against everything he stood for?
Ok!
To be fair, I was in primary school and not the least bit interested in RAO, Moi or anyone in the world of politics, so my memory is fuzzy on the details. I just don't get how that alone is supposed to undercut everything else he did and I've been following him since 2002 elections and seen no signs of the lurking evil behind the man we are supposed to fear.
Understood.
Ok here's the short version.
Moi was a bad boy and second liberation the entailed opposing him. Explains why all the liberation heroes were anti-Moi and the Kanu guys ended up lefting the party.
Baba after leaving detention was on the right side of history joining opposition politics. He fared well between 92 and 97 especially in pursuing Goldenberg scandal in parliament.
There's no way any reformer was going to make any meaningful progress while in Kanu as that was the status quo.
Babu's spin to his shameful joining Kanu was that he went to reforms the party from inside bla bla and he left when it proved impossible. We all know that's a fat lie as he was perfectly at ease with all its xcesses. He honestly believed Moi would anoint him as Kanu candidate in 2002 elections. Moi took his sweet time meandering all over prompting George Saitoti to lament 'there comes a time....'
The cue to left Kanu evidently tells you what took him there.
I must say that his greed/rage served the country well for it fired up Kibaki's campaign though in my opinion, Kibaki's NAK was formidable as it were.
I also think since leaving Kanu he has redeemed himself.
Reason that won't go away is because it is a constant reminder that Babu has frailties you see in politicians so we should temper our expectations. Yes, temper our expectations of the man.
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if that’s all you have against RAO then I agree with you. You cannot put place all the hopes of change on the shoulders of any one person, RAO, included. We need people like RAO to help us build the institutions that we can place our hopes on. This regime has destroyed the parliament, IEBC, and may have destroyed the SCOK with that forced lack of quorum. We need RAO not because he is a perfect human being but because we believe he has a lot of respect for the institutions that upholds and secures a democracy and will not harm/destroy it the way ouruto has.
I don't see how he compromised "all he stood for" just by joing government: How exactly did he do that? Just be being in government? Did he become a Moi sycophant while in Govt? Did he start fighting democracy and the quest for a new constitution? What did he actually do to destroy what he had been fighting for those few years he was in govt?
He joined KANU as a quick route to the presidency. Sure. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together can see that. Moi's impending exit created a fantabulous opportunity. Since he didn't become president, we have no idea what kind of things he intended to do as president. And when Moi came up with the plot to continue KANU the same way with Uhuru, he bolted with all the young turks.
I see opportunism there. Loads of it. I am unsure how this meant he had betrayed the stuff he was fighting for: democracy, new constitution, devolution, etc. Perhaps an explanation/examples would help.
Every other progressive mind was busy resisting Moism and Baba went to bed with him and you don’t see how that goes against everything he stood for?
Ok!
To be fair, I was in primary school and not the least bit interested in RAO, Moi or anyone in the world of politics, so my memory is fuzzy on the details. I just don't get how that alone is supposed to undercut everything else he did and I've been following him since 2002 elections and seen no signs of the lurking evil behind the man we are supposed to fear.
Understood.
Ok here's the short version.
Moi was a bad boy and second liberation the entailed opposing him. Explains why all the liberation heroes were anti-Moi and the Kanu guys ended up lefting the party.
Baba after leaving detention was on the right side of history joining opposition politics. He fared well between 92 and 97 especially in pursuing Goldenberg scandal in parliament.
There's no way any reformer was going to make any meaningful progress while in Kanu as that was the status quo.
Babu's spin to his shameful joining Kanu was that he went to reforms the party from inside bla bla and he left when it proved impossible. We all know that's a fat lie as he was perfectly at ease with all its xcesses. He honestly believed Moi would anoint him as Kanu candidate in 2002 elections. Moi took his sweet time meandering all over prompting George Saitoti to lament 'there comes a time....'
The cue to left Kanu evidently tells you what took him there.
I must say that his greed/rage served the country well for it fired up Kibaki's campaign though in my opinion, Kibaki's NAK was formidable as it were.
I also think since leaving Kanu he has redeemed himself.
Reason that won't go away is because it is a constant reminder that Babu has frailties you see in politicians so we should temper our expectations. Yes, temper our expectations of the man.
Yessir,
He currently is pushing our democratic space to the max evidenced by the constant headaches he gives the incumbency. That's what I meant by redeeming himself. I can't imagine an opposition-less GoK.
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Whether Rail & Co are the same or different from Uhuruto & Co does not matter so much as what either party does or would do with power. So, rather than simply insisting that the one side must surely be better than the other on the basis that they are different sides, a better argument might to be put forth (for whichever side one supports) their concrete ideas, policies, plans, ... that would deal with corruption, crappy government services, lack of food security, etc. and change the lives of Kenyans. In the absence of such---with either side seemingly focused solely on power---"they are all the same" is not entirely unreasonable.
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Why waste time on a man whose kaput...Raila is done.
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Whether Rail & Co are the same or different from Uhuruto & Co does not matter so much as what either party does or would do with power. So, rather than simply insisting that the one side must surely be better than the other on the basis that they are different sides, a better argument might to be put forth (for whichever side one supports) their concrete ideas, policies, plans, ... that would deal with corruption, crappy government services, lack of food security, etc. and change the lives of Kenyans. In the absence of such---with either side seemingly focused solely on power---"they are all the same" is not entirely unreasonable.
Exactly.
That's the crucial point every single rabid support of either coalition never bothers thinking about.
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Why waste time on a man whose kaput...Raila is done.
He trying another desperate move for nusu:
https://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2017/11/10/how-nasa-wants-kenya-to-be-divided_c1667387
It's never wise to underestimate stupidity.
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I find some positions here very naive when we are back to fighting for fundamentals. It's just a more elaborate "economy before institutions" argument. What does it matter which fancy policies any side comes up with to show Kenyans when we are dealing with issues like preventing the slide to dictatorship, the death of independent institutions and the new constitution and credible elections? Sometimes it seems to me it's a simple cop-out to take such "neutral" positions in times like these: You avoid making an emotional investment so you don't risk disappointment in the event of failure and you can just sit back, get on a moral pedestal and criticize everyone else. Sometimes it's also that some are embarrassed to openly support the side they are actually rooting for and so they hide behind a false neutrality.
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The dispute is about validity of the presidential elections. The rest - corruption, devolution, Canaan, etc - is campaign material. The Supreme Court will rule shortly and we will see how genuine the clamor for "institutions" and "rule of law" is.
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I find some positions here very naive when we are back to fighting for fundamentals. It's just a more elaborate "economy before institutions" argument. What does it matter which fancy policies any side comes up with to show Kenyans when we are dealing with issues like preventing the slide to dictatorship, the death of independent institutions and the new constitution and credible elections? Sometimes it seems to me it's a simple cop-out to take such "neutral" positions in times like these: You avoid making an emotional investment so you don't risk disappointment in the event of failure and you can just sit back, get on a moral pedestal and criticize everyone else. Sometimes it's also that some are embarrassed to openly support the side they are actually rooting for and so they hide behind a false neutrality.
Back to fighting for fundamentals, eh? Issues like preventing the slide to dictatorship, the death of independent institutions and the new constitution and credible elections, eh? Interesting stuff. Alright, ours is very naïve. And full of hidden embarrassment. Let's now see what the smart side manages to achieve with Okoa Kenya v. 2.0. A luta continua! Fight the power! Etc.
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Whether Rail & Co are the same or different from Uhuruto & Co does not matter so much as what either party does or would do with power. So, rather than simply insisting that the one side must surely be better than the other on the basis that they are different sides, a better argument might to be put forth (for whichever side one supports) their concrete ideas, policies, plans, ... that would deal with corruption, crappy government services, lack of food security, etc. and change the lives of Kenyans. In the absence of such---with either side seemingly focused solely on power---"they are all the same" is not entirely unreasonable.
Problem is incumbency has had the luxury of trying out their ‘concrete ideas,policies,plans..’ while opposition hasn’t. It’s already hard to get consensus on effectiveness of what has already been tried and the proposed ideas
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Problem is incumbency has had the luxury of trying out their ‘concrete ideas,policies,plans..’ while opposition hasn’t. It’s already hard to get consensus on effectiveness of what has already been tried and the proposed ideas
I'm happy to let the Opposition try theirs. What are they?
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The dispute is about validity of the presidential elections. The rest - corruption, devolution, Canaan, etc - is campaign material. The Supreme Court will rule shortly and we will see how genuine the clamor for "institutions" and "rule of law" is.
Thanks for clarifying that. I thought it was about people wanting power, which is why I asked what they plan to do with that power that would help the citizens.
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I find some positions here very naive when we are back to fighting for fundamentals. It's just a more elaborate "economy before institutions" argument. What does it matter which fancy policies any side comes up with to show Kenyans when we are dealing with issues like preventing the slide to dictatorship, the death of independent institutions and the new constitution and credible elections? Sometimes it seems to me it's a simple cop-out to take such "neutral" positions in times like these: You avoid making an emotional investment so you don't risk disappointment in the event of failure and you can just sit back, get on a moral pedestal and criticize everyone else. Sometimes it's also that some are embarrassed to openly support the side they are actually rooting for and so they hide behind a false neutrality.
Back to fighting for fundamentals, eh? Issues like preventing the slide to dictatorship, the death of independent institutions and the new constitution and credible elections, eh? Interesting stuff. Alright, ours is very naïve. And full of hidden embarrassment. Let's now see what the smart side manages to achieve Okoa Kenya v. 2.0.
The bold refers to closeted jubilants who feel embarrassed to admit it. It's not difficult to tell who they are. I wasn't accusing you of being one of them. But you sure do do the cop-out "hopeless Kenyans" routine. Okoa v. 2 may fail, it may succeed, but how does the sit-on-the-fence-and-damn-all-Kenyans strategy beat it?
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The bold refers to closeted jubilants who feel embarrassed to admit it. It's not difficult to tell who they are. I wasn't accusing you of being one of them. But you sure do do the cop-out "hopeless Kenyans" routine. Okoa v. 2 may fail, it may succeed, but how does the sit-on-the-fence-and-damn-all-Kenyans strategy beat it?
Nothing beats it, and nothing could. But still ... it will fail, for pretty much the same reasons that v. 1.0 failed.
A man has to stick to his routine. That's what makes it a routine. The sticking-to-it.
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The bold refers to closeted jubilants who feel embarrassed to admit it. It's not difficult to tell who they are. I wasn't accusing you of being one of them. But you sure do do the cop-out "hopeless Kenyans" routine. Okoa v. 2 may fail, it may succeed, but how does the sit-on-the-fence-and-damn-all-Kenyans strategy beat it?
Nothing beats it, and nothing could. But still ... it will fail, for pretty much the same reasons that v. 1.0 failed.
A man has to stick to his routine. That's what makes it a routine. The sticking-to-it.
Well, beggars can't be choosers, so if this is the only arrow left in the quiver, I'm all for putting it in the bow and taking a shot.
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I find some positions here very naive when we are back to fighting for fundamentals. It's just a more elaborate "economy before institutions" argument. What does it matter which fancy policies any side comes up with to show Kenyans when we are dealing with issues like preventing the slide to dictatorship, the death of independent institutions and the new constitution and credible elections? Sometimes it seems to me it's a simple cop-out to take such "neutral" positions in times like these: You avoid making an emotional investment so you don't risk disappointment in the event of failure and you can just sit back, get on a moral pedestal and criticize everyone else. Sometimes it's also that some are embarrassed to openly support the side they are actually rooting for and so they hide behind a false neutrality.
One need not to root for any particular faction to make meaningful contribution to any subject or even maintain intellectual honesty. Your reasoning is precisely what I alluded to here that in Kenya everything you do is analyzed in a cheap binary NASWA/Jubilee fashion.In fact, presently, the most fashionable hobby in Kenia is guessing your favorite faction/candidate
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I find some positions here very naive when we are back to fighting for fundamentals. It's just a more elaborate "economy before institutions" argument. What does it matter which fancy policies any side comes up with to show Kenyans when we are dealing with issues like preventing the slide to dictatorship, the death of independent institutions and the new constitution and credible elections? Sometimes it seems to me it's a simple cop-out to take such "neutral" positions in times like these: You avoid making an emotional investment so you don't risk disappointment in the event of failure and you can just sit back, get on a moral pedestal and criticize everyone else. Sometimes it's also that some are embarrassed to openly support the side they are actually rooting for and so they hide behind a false neutrality.
One need not to root for any particular faction to make meaningful contribution to any subject or even maintain intellectual honesty. Your reasoning is precisely what I alluded to here that in Kenya everything you do is analyzed in a cheap binary NASWA/Jubilee fashion.In fact, presently, the most fashionable hobby in Kenia is guessing your favorite faction/candidate
That's one of our biggest problem.
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Whether Rail & Co are the same or different from Uhuruto & Co does not matter so much as what either party does or would do with power. So, rather than simply insisting that the one side must surely be better than the other on the basis that they are different sides, a better argument might to be put forth (for whichever side one supports) their concrete ideas, policies, plans, ... that would deal with corruption, crappy government services, lack of food security, etc. and change the lives of Kenyans. In the absence of such---with either side seemingly focused solely on power---"they are all the same" is not entirely unreasonable.
I tend to see Raila as something to stop the bleeding. The fact that one may not know what to do afterwards is not relevant to the one that bleeding needs to stop for that to even matter.
It’s unhelpful to be offered the latest options in 24 hour gyms, health foods and dieting in nice looking brochures when you are bleeding to death. Someone needs to interrupt the goings on in Kenyan governance.
The reality is all the idealistic alternatives, apart from Raila, stand no chance of doing that.
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Whether Rail & Co are the same or different from Uhuruto & Co does not matter so much as what either party does or would do with power. So, rather than simply insisting that the one side must surely be better than the other on the basis that they are different sides, a better argument might to be put forth (for whichever side one supports) their concrete ideas, policies, plans, ... that would deal with corruption, crappy government services, lack of food security, etc. and change the lives of Kenyans. In the absence of such---with either side seemingly focused solely on power---"they are all the same" is not entirely unreasonable.
I tend to see Raila as something to stop the bleeding. The fact that one may not know what to do afterwards is not relevant to the one that bleeding needs to stop for that to even matter.
It’s unhelpful to be offered the latest options in 24 hour gyms, health foods and dieting in nice looking brochures when you are bleeding to death. Someone needs to interrupt the goings on in Kenyan governance.
The reality is all the idealistic alternatives, apart from Raila, stand no chance of doing that.
I agree with this assessment.
One can take the purely academic approach of the fairest policies, or just get practical and focus on who has realistic chances of sailing through.
But Moonki seems to suggest that nobody should get a free pass and they deserve to be critiqued. Is it not fatalism settling for whatever alternative we have because it stands the most realistic chance of dislodging whatever we have?
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I find some positions here very naive when we are back to fighting for fundamentals. It's just a more elaborate "economy before institutions" argument. What does it matter which fancy policies any side comes up with to show Kenyans when we are dealing with issues like preventing the slide to dictatorship, the death of independent institutions and the new constitution and credible elections? Sometimes it seems to me it's a simple cop-out to take such "neutral" positions in times like these: You avoid making an emotional investment so you don't risk disappointment in the event of failure and you can just sit back, get on a moral pedestal and criticize everyone else. Sometimes it's also that some are embarrassed to openly support the side they are actually rooting for and so they hide behind a false neutrality.
One need not to root for any particular faction to make meaningful contribution to any subject or even maintain intellectual honesty. Your reasoning is precisely what I alluded to here that in Kenya everything you do is analyzed in a cheap binary NASWA/Jubilee fashion.In fact, presently, the most fashionable hobby in Kenia is guessing your favorite faction/candidate
No one created a rule for who gets to contribute and none said anything about intellectual dishonesty. Way to beat down a strawman and make a cheap shot. Presently, the most fashionable hobby I see is to keep mum on blatant Jubilee excesses and then pounce on anything one can use to beat down the opposition even if one has to travel twenty years back in time to get anything arguable and then to throw in "neutral" disclaimers all over the place to avoid the impossible task of defending one's pro-Jubilee stance. Such hard work must be left to honest supporters like Pundit.
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I tend to see Raila as something to stop the bleeding. The fact that one may not know what to do afterwards is not relevant to the one that bleeding needs to stop for that to even matter.
It’s unhelpful to be offered the latest options in 24 hour gyms, health foods and dieting in nice looking brochures when you are bleeding to death. Someone needs to interrupt the goings on in Kenyan governance.
That is an interesting way to look at it. "We'll do the thinking later.". The 20th-century history of Africa will produce numerous examples in which people overthrew a government that deserved to be overthrown but ended up with an even bigger mess because they did not start clear ideas of what to do next. Sort of like stopping the bleeding but breaking the neck in the process.
And we know Raila will stop the bleeding how? Just because he gets in? His past performance as prime minister? What he has done since then?
Anyways ...
My view: The bleeding will stop when Kenyans have had enough of it and wish to have something done about it. That won't happen any time soon; right now, a sizable part of of the population will even dispute any claim that the country is bleeding.
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Fair enough, Moonki, for some of us, that time is now. Some people in Kenya have had enough and cannot afford to wait for those who are still comfortable to feel their pain. The people who are causing the suffering are not stupid and will use tribalism to make sure that Kenyans will not feel as if they have had enough all at the same time. That is the whole idea behind kikuyu/Kalenjin alliance, stealing of votes and the tyranny of numbers. Even Bashar Al-Asaad still has a segment of Syrians who support him and believe in him.
I tend to see Raila as something to stop the bleeding. The fact that one may not know what to do afterwards is not relevant to the one that bleeding needs to stop for that to even matter.
It’s unhelpful to be offered the latest options in 24 hour gyms, health foods and dieting in nice looking brochures when you are bleeding to death. Someone needs to interrupt the goings on in Kenyan governance.
That is an interesting way to look at it. "We'll do the thinking later.". The 20th-century history of Africa will produce numerous examples in which people overthrew a government that deserved to be overthrown but ended up with an even bigger mess because they did not start clear ideas of what to do next. Sort of like stopping the bleeding but breaking the neck in the process.
And we know Raila will stop the bleeding how? Just because he gets in? His past performance as prime minister? What he has done since then?
Anyways ...
My view: The bleeding will stop when Kenyans have had enough of it and wish to have something done about it. That won't happen any time soon; right now, a sizable part of of the population will even dispute any claim that the country is bleeding.M
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I tend to see Raila as something to stop the bleeding. The fact that one may not know what to do afterwards is not relevant to the one that bleeding needs to stop for that to even matter.
It’s unhelpful to be offered the latest options in 24 hour gyms, health foods and dieting in nice looking brochures when you are bleeding to death. Someone needs to interrupt the goings on in Kenyan governance.
That is an interesting way to look at it. "We'll do the thinking later.". The 20th-century history of Africa will produce numerous examples in which people overthrew a government that deserved to be overthrown but ended up with an even bigger mess because they did not start clear ideas of what to do next. Sort of like stopping the bleeding but breaking the neck in the process.
And we know Raila will stop the bleeding how? Just because he gets in? His past performance as prime minister? What he has done since then?
Anyways ...
My view: The bleeding will stop when Kenyans have had enough of it and wish to have something done about it. That won't happen any time soon; right now, a sizable part of of the population will even dispute any claim that the country is bleeding.
We don't know if Raila will stop the bleeding or not. We just know it needs to stop. At a minimum it needs to be disrupted. I haven't seen anything his grouping has suggested in terms of ideas that would make me prefer the status quo.
Granted, ideas have generally taken a back seat. For reasons I feel are understandable. It's not going to make sense selling ideas, better or worse, when the system that decides which ideas get to be tried out is dysfunctional or actually rigged anyway. The focus naturally shifts to how to dislodge the rigging system.
How do you get to have good or even terrible ideas tried out when the system is rigged to prevent such an outcome? The last one, a one man circus, was still fraught with comical declarations and outright contradictions. For that reason, I am no longer subscribing to the notion that Kenyans have what they deserve. It's premature, because they can't make the choice.
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We don't know if Raila will stop the bleeding or not. We just know it needs to stop. At a minimum it needs to be disrupted. I haven't seen anything his grouping has suggested in terms of ideas that would make me prefer the status quo.
Granted, ideas have generally taken a back seat. For reasons I feel are understandable. It's not going to make sense selling ideas, better or worse, when the system that decides which ideas get to be tried out is dysfunctional or actually rigged anyway. The focus naturally shifts to how to dislodge the rigging system.
How do you get to have good or even terrible ideas tried out when the system is rigged to prevent such an outcome? The last one, a one man circus, was still fraught with comical declarations and outright contradictions. For that reason, I am no longer subscribing to the notion that Kenyans have what they deserve. It's premature, because they can't make the choice.
Our friend is protecting his heart. Loving the girl called Kenya and dreaming beautiful dreams with/about her is not easy for any sane negro. At some point you have to tell yourself she aint all that, not worth all that hustle, so that you can move on in peace.
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Granted, ideas have generally taken a back seat. For reasons I feel are understandable. It's not going to make sense selling ideas, better or worse, when the system that decides which ideas get to be tried out is dysfunctional or actually rigged anyway. The focus naturally shifts to how to dislodge the rigging system.
Raila has to sell some ideas, even to his own supporters. Unless he can convince people that Okoa Kenya v. 2.0 will somehow lead to worthwhile changes for the people, I expect the thing to fizzle out within a few months. That's not long to go, so we'll see.
How do you get to have good or even terrible ideas tried out when the system is rigged to prevent such an outcome?
We don't necessarily expect them to get tried out, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask what the ideas are in the first place.
By the way, I notice that the "Opposition" counties have been as badly run as the others; that doesn't inspire much confidence in a move to the national level or for the proposed new "republic". I also see that the new National Assembly that is very likely to be a disaster generally reflects the will of the people ... at least I haven't heard any massive-rigging claims at that level.
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Our friend is protecting his heart. Loving the girl called Kenya and dreaming beautiful dreams with/about her is not easy for any sane negro. At some point you have to tell yourself she aint all that, not worth all that hustle, so that you can move on in peace.
Your friend does never loves or dreams beautiful dreams with/about whores. Reformed ones ... perhaps.
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Granted, ideas have generally taken a back seat. For reasons I feel are understandable. It's not going to make sense selling ideas, better or worse, when the system that decides which ideas get to be tried out is dysfunctional or actually rigged anyway. The focus naturally shifts to how to dislodge the rigging system.
Raila has to sell some ideas, even to his own supporters. Unless he can convince people that Okoa Kenya v. 2.0 will somehow lead to worthwhile changes for the people, I expect the thing to fizzle out within a few months. That's not long to go, so we'll see.
I think he has. They may not be great, but he has the Luhyas, Luos, Akamba, Gusii, Mijikenda sold on to what he has presented to them, just as his core. He can't sell his ideas to GEMA or Kalenjins no matter how great.
His ideas could certainly fail Okoa Kenya style - maybe worse. But the problem as I see it, even if he had better ideas, they will fail for the reason that there is no avenue for them to be given a fair look at. The system will not allow wanjiku to choose her destiny, good or bad. For that reason, I cannot blame wanjiku for what she is going through.
How do you get to have good or even terrible ideas tried out when the system is rigged to prevent such an outcome?
We don't necessarily expect them to get tried out, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask what the ideas are in the first place.
By the way, I notice that the "Opposition" counties have been as badly run as the others; that doesn't inspire much confidence in a move to the national level or for the proposed new "republic". I also see that the new National Assembly that is very likely to be a disaster generally reflects the will of the people ... at least I haven't heard any massive-rigging claims at that level.
I see counties as just a reflection of what happens at the national stage. When they see that you can eat with impunity at the top, copycats are going crop up all over. The institutions that are supposed to fix them are after all answering to the guy at State House de facto.
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I think he has. They may not be great, but he has the Luhyas, Luos, Akamba, Gusii, Mijikenda sold on to what he has presented to them, just as his core. He can't sell his ideas to GEMA or Kalenjins no matter how great.
Perhaps. As things stand, I don't see that what he's sold so far is enough to sustain his revolution. Let's wait and see.
The system will not allow wanjiku to choose her destiny, good or bad. For that reason, I cannot blame wanjiku for what she is going through.
Wanjiku has given us the new legislature. Let's see how it works out.
I see counties as just a reflection of what happens at the national stage. When they see that you can eat with impunity at the top, copycats are going crop up all over. The institutions that are supposed to fix them are after all answering to the guy at State House de facto.
I agree that it is a reflection of what happens on the national stage. I am, however, curious about two things: (a) the copycats denouncing what they are copying, (b) the idea that these copycats will suddenly change their ways when they get to the national level and have even more eating opportunities. And I find funny the notion that they are the way they are because the people who are supposed to stop them ... People can make other choices, and they really ought to when they are claiming some sort of moral superiority.
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I think he has. They may not be great, but he has the Luhyas, Luos, Akamba, Gusii, Mijikenda sold on to what he has presented to them, just as his core. He can't sell his ideas to GEMA or Kalenjins no matter how great.
Perhaps. As things stand, I don't see that what he's sold so far is enough to sustain his revolution. Let's wait and see.
The system will not allow wanjiku to choose her destiny, good or bad. For that reason, I cannot blame wanjiku for what she is going through.
Wanjiku has given us the new legislature. Let's see how it works out.
The legislature is interesting. One can argue that it's also prone to abuse from the patronage system controlled from State House. That is also a reason why opposition MPs tend to be unreliable. These guys just flock to where they see opportunities and favors. The truth is the Presidency still enjoys more power than the constitution actually prescribes.
For that reason, Wanjiku can pick someone who represents her interests only to loose them to the bright lights of "good living". Granted, most of the characters reelected have little to show that they deserved to be reelected. Wanjiku can be blamed for this. But also, who gets elected, depends a lot on who they support for President and how much rapport they enjoy with this person.
It seems to me that a lot ultimately depends on the Presidency, including how the people you elect in the legislature are going to behave.
I see counties as just a reflection of what happens at the national stage. When they see that you can eat with impunity at the top, copycats are going crop up all over. The institutions that are supposed to fix them are after all answering to the guy at State House de facto.
I agree that it is a reflection of what happens on the national stage. I am, however, curious about two things: (a) the copycats denouncing what they are copying, (b) the idea that these copycats will suddenly change their ways when they get to the national level and have even more eating opportunities. And I find funny the notion that they are the way they are because the people who are supposed to stop them ... People can make other choices, and they really ought to when they are claiming some sort of moral superiority.
There is indeed no reason to believe that they will change their ways. The real problem in Kenya is that crime at those levels is rewarding. There is virtually no penalty associated with being named, arrested, quizzed and even charged with crimes by public office holders. Again, I believe the Presidency can make some difference in this arena. Mnataka nifanyeje is actually a very clear signal.
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The legislature is interesting. One can argue that it's also prone to abuse from the patronage system controlled from State House. That is also a reason why opposition MPs tend to be unreliable. These guys just flock to where they see opportunities and favors. The truth is the Presidency still enjoys more power than the constitution actually prescribes.
Yep. More of Wanjiku's chosen representatives.
For that reason, Wanjiku can pick someone who represents her interests only to loose them to the bright lights of "good living". Granted, most of the characters reelected have little to show that they deserved to be reelected. Wanjiku can be blamed for this. But also, who gets elected, depends a lot on who they support for President and how much rapport they enjoy with this person.
It seems to me that a lot ultimately depends on the Presidency, including how the people you elect in the legislature are going to behave.
Without any claims of massive rigging at that level too, ultimately Wanjiku has the vote and exercises it freely at that level. To my mind, there's no getting around that.
If Wanjiku has carefully considered the integrity and other aspects of character, past performance in relevant areas, prospects for future performance, etc. of the candidates---and I'm not sure that that really happens---but still ends up with people who get seduced by the "good life", then there is a more serious and fundamental problem: that of an entirely crappy base population. I find that hard to believe, and I would also wonder whether such a population is capable of producing the "Hero President" that will save the country.
There is indeed no reason to believe that they will change their ways. The real problem in Kenya is that crime at those levels is rewarding. There is virtually no penalty associated with being named, arrested, quizzed and even charged with crimes by public office holders. Again, I believe the Presidency can make some difference in this arena. Mnataka nifanyeje is actually a very clear signal.
I agree that the Presidency can, and should, send very different signals from what we have right now. But I also believe that a great deal more can be done independently of that. A starting point would be for Wanjiku to make better choices when voting for the national assembly and county governments. I don't see great prospects for change if people just sit back and wait for the right presidency; in my view, real change in Kenya will have to start at lower levels. Consider the motley crew that will be the presidential candidates for 2022 is not the result of an accident.
Time will tell.
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Fair enough, Moonki, for some of us, that time is now. Some people in Kenya have had enough and cannot afford to wait for those who are still comfortable to feel their pain. The people who are causing the suffering are not stupid and will use tribalism to make sure that Kenyans will not feel as if they have had enough all at the same time. That is the whole idea behind kikuyu/Kalenjin alliance, stealing of votes and the tyranny of numbers. Even Bashar Al-Asaad still has a segment of Syrians who support him and believe in him.
I don't see it as a matter of having to wait; what I think is that even those who are already fed up and want change right now might not achieve much until a sufficient number feel the pain. Otherwise I am generally supportive of some ideas and plans that I have heard mentioned---those that would hasten the awakening of the citizenry---and there is no doubt that serious change is urgently needed. Still, some of the ideas, such as the alternative or new republic, strike me as very funny indeed. One hopes that energy and attention will be directed into more fruitful activities. But, perhaps, some good could come out of that too: the "Opposition" might in the next five years show that they can run their parts of the country (aforementioned alternative/new "republic") better than the rest of the country is run.
As for the "Kikuyu/Kalenjin Alliance", one thing to keep in mind is that from their point of view what they have done so far has worked out rather nicely, and they will no doubt use the same playbook in 2022. They also have a "proactive" and "supportive" legislature that has hit the ground running, so to speak, and I would be astonished if they did not stay on that path. I also expect the executive to continue in the same style we have seen so far. So I'd start thinking about and preparing for 2022 right now.
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I find some positions here very naive when we are back to fighting for fundamentals. It's just a more elaborate "economy before institutions" argument. What does it matter which fancy policies any side comes up with to show Kenyans when we are dealing with issues like preventing the slide to dictatorship, the death of independent institutions and the new constitution and credible elections? Sometimes it seems to me it's a simple cop-out to take such "neutral" positions in times like these: You avoid making an emotional investment so you don't risk disappointment in the event of failure and you can just sit back, get on a moral pedestal and criticize everyone else. Sometimes it's also that some are embarrassed to openly support the side they are actually rooting for and so they hide behind a false neutrality.
One need not to root for any particular faction to make meaningful contribution to any subject or even maintain intellectual honesty. Your reasoning is precisely what I alluded to here that in Kenya everything you do is analyzed in a cheap binary NASWA/Jubilee fashion.In fact, presently, the most fashionable hobby in Kenia is guessing your favorite faction/candidate
No one created a rule for who gets to contribute and none said anything about intellectual dishonesty. Way to beat down a strawman and make a cheap shot. Presently, the most fashionable hobby I see is to keep mum on blatant Jubilee excesses and then pounce on anything one can use to beat down the opposition even if one has to travel twenty years back in time to get anything arguable and then to throw in "neutral" disclaimers all over the place to avoid the impossible task of defending one's pro-Jubilee stance. Such hard work must be left to honest supporters like Pundit.
Another hobby I see here is whining why nobody sees your POV and labeling them sympathizers of whatever you are berating
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Fair enough, Moonki, for some of us, that time is now. Some people in Kenya have had enough and cannot afford to wait for those who are still comfortable to feel their pain. The people who are causing the suffering are not stupid and will use tribalism to make sure that Kenyans will not feel as if they have had enough all at the same time. That is the whole idea behind kikuyu/Kalenjin alliance, stealing of votes and the tyranny of numbers. Even Bashar Al-Asaad still has a segment of Syrians who support him and believe in him.
Don’t mention Bashad, I doubt there’s any Syrian who doesn’t miss the old order.
Tell me about parliamentary system. How do you expect it to surmount tribal coalitions which seems to be the sum of all your fears?
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Another hobby I see here is whining why nobody sees your POV and labeling them sympathizers of whatever you are berating
Sounds like the same hobby you pretended to discover earlier, want to check the def of "another" in a dictionary? Here's another one for ya: Putting one's biases out there and whining that others notice the holes in them and dare to mention them.
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Another hobby I see here is whining why nobody sees your POV and labeling them sympathizers of whatever you are berating
Sounds like the same hobby you pretended to discover earlier, want to check the def of "another" in a dictionary? Here's another one for ya: Putting one's biases out there and whining that others notice the holes in them and dare to mention them.
Wanajijua
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This forum provide us anonymity so we can be a little honest and avoid shadow boxing.Kadame ideas are not any different from Nyaboke ideas in kisii neither are kichwa or moonki or Terminator or Bryan or etc...mostly ethnically inspired in matter politics and so predictable.The really enjoyable exchange are those outside our ethnic based politics...otherwise some little honesty would reduce the long winding circular debates.
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Another hobby I see here is whining why nobody sees your POV and labeling them sympathizers of whatever you are berating
Sounds like the same hobby you pretended to discover earlier, want to check the def of "another" in a dictionary? Here's another one for ya: Putting one's biases out there and whining that others notice the holes in them and dare to mention them.
Wanajijua
Nyani haoni kundule.
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Yup. It's good to add that people will rarely agree on broad subjects like politics or democracy. Even in the development thread there is a clear leapfrog vs organic divide. Although you can say it's also tainted by capitalist vs socialist politics. Difference is the essence of debate.
This forum provide us anonymity so we can be a little honest and avoid shadow boxing.Kadame ideas are not any different from Nyaboke ideas in kisii neither are kichwa or moonki or Terminator or Bryan or etc...mostly ethnically inspired in matter politics and so predictable.The really enjoyable exchange are those outside our ethnic based politics...otherwise some little honesty would reduce the long winding circular debates.
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Moonki, What you are saying to NASA is very similar to what Robina, Vooke and to a certain extent RV Pundit have been saying here all along. Its called "you have made enough noise; raised some interesting issues that should be looked into; however, now shut-up and prepare for 2022 and let the Ouruto do their thing". NASA would be stupid to listen to such advice and abandon its momentum for reforms/change and if all fails, secession. Actually 2022 is no longer an important date for some of us in NASA unless some very serious dialogue resulting in serious constitutional reforms are made in the way we conduct elections, treat ourselves and govern ourselves. If at a certain point NASA realizes that these goals cannot be realized, then secession, as amusing as it maybe to some, will be the only discussion that we will be having with our brothers and sisters in the republic. 2022 is therefore not a particularly very important or significant year to NASA as it maybe to Ruto.
Fair enough, Moonki, for some of us, that time is now. Some people in Kenya have had enough and cannot afford to wait for those who are still comfortable to feel their pain. The people who are causing the suffering are not stupid and will use tribalism to make sure that Kenyans will not feel as if they have had enough all at the same time. That is the whole idea behind kikuyu/Kalenjin alliance, stealing of votes and the tyranny of numbers. Even Bashar Al-Asaad still has a segment of Syrians who support him and believe in him.
I don't see it as a matter of having to wait; what I think is that even those who are already fed up and want change right now might not achieve much until a sufficient number feel the pain. Otherwise I am generally supportive of some ideas and plans that I have heard mentioned---those that would hasten the awakening of the citizenry---and there is no doubt that serious change is urgently needed. Still, some of the ideas, such as the alternative or new republic, strike me as very funny indeed. One hopes that energy and attention will be directed into more fruitful activities. But, perhaps, some good could come out of that too: the "Opposition" might in the next five years show that they can run their parts of the country (aforementioned alternative/new "republic") better than the rest of the country is run.
As for the "Kikuyu/Kalenjin Alliance", one thing to keep in mind is that from their point of view what they have done so far has worked out rather nicely, and they will no doubt use the same playbook in 2022. They also have a "proactive" and "supportive" legislature that has hit the ground running, so to speak, and I would be astonished if they did not stay on that path. I also expect the executive to continue in the same style we have seen so far. So I'd start thinking about and preparing for 2022 right now.
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Moonki, What you are saying to NASA is very similar to what Robina, Vooke and to a certain extent RV Pundit have been saying here all along. Its called "you have made enough noise; raised some interesting issues that should be looked into; however, now shut-up and prepare for 2022 and let the Ouruto do their thing". NASA would be stupid to listen to such advice and abandon its momentum for reforms/change and if all fails, secession. Actually 2022 is no longer an important date for some of us in NASA unless some very serious dialogue resulting in serious constitutional reforms are made in the way we conduct elections, treat ourselves and govern ourselves. If at a certain point NASA realizes that these goals cannot be realized, then secession, as amusing as it maybe to some, will be the only discussion that we will be having with our brothers and sisters in the republic. 2022 is therefore not a particularly very important or significant year to NASA as it maybe to Ruto.
KM,
Get real.
Supposing SCOK upholds Uhuru’s victory against himself.
What does Babu expect him to do, step down and pave way for free and fair elections while calling for an interim government? To be honest, I can’t see Jubilee succumbing to any pressure. SCOK will give Uhunye about the same moral ground it gave Babu. Nothing short of real war or threat of war would make Uhunye give this thing up
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Kichwa and his hardliners jumping from one bad idea to next will drive moderates in nasa to jubilee making it even harder for themselves.The luhyas,kambas and the rest will bolt leaving luos in yet another long wilderness in political periphery.You cannot keep changing the rules.Gema and kalenjin alliance is beatable down the line...but not by Raila.Give Kalonzo a chance....he might appeal to gema or st least wont terrify them.Obviusly the luo nation feel entitled and therefore Raila will keep at it.This is great news for Ruto.Seem 2012 is walk over
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Vooke, I know it is hard for you to fathom, but NASA is not relying on Jubilee's benevolence/acceptance/permission to achieve its goals. If I hear you correctly, you are saying that if Ouru's elections is upheld by SCOK, then NASA will have no choice but to wait for 2022 because Jubilee will not let them/permit them to pursue its goals. T Actually, NASA is not pegging its hopes and aspirations on this upcoming SCOK ruling or 2022. NASA will not participate in any other election until the changes it demands in the electoral system are made whether in 60 days, 90days or five years from now. NASA will continue to agitate for those changes but if at a certain point, NASA comes to the realization that those changes are not possible, then succession will be the only conversation, NASA will have with itself and others.
Moonki, What you are saying to NASA is very similar to what Robina, Vooke and to a certain extent RV Pundit have been saying here all along. Its called "you have made enough noise; raised some interesting issues that should be looked into; however, now shut-up and prepare for 2022 and let the Ouruto do their thing". NASA would be stupid to listen to such advice and abandon its momentum for reforms/change and if all fails, secession. Actually 2022 is no longer an important date for some of us in NASA unless some very serious dialogue resulting in serious constitutional reforms are made in the way we conduct elections, treat ourselves and govern ourselves. If at a certain point NASA realizes that these goals cannot be realized, then secession, as amusing as it maybe to some, will be the only discussion that we will be having with our brothers and sisters in the republic. 2022 is therefore not a particularly very important or significant year to NASA as it maybe to Ruto.
KM,
Get real.
Supposing SCOK upholds Uhuru’s victory against himself.
What does Babu expect him to do, step down and pave way for free and fair elections while calling for an interim government? To be honest, I can’t see Jubilee succumbing to any pressure. SCOK will give Uhunye about the same moral ground it gave Babu. Nothing short of real war or threat of war would make Uhunye give this thing up
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Secession based on temporary political alliance is the most stupid idea yet.NASA wont last longer.Some many leaders are cutting deals coz they know Raila is stuck and wants to take them down.Kalonzo Wiper will be first to go...followed by MaDvD
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I know you are obsessed with numbers but this movement does not need a whole lot of people at this time. Actually most movements of its kind at this nascent stage, are not this big. NASA can therefore afford to lose a few people and become much tighter but I do not think that's even going to happen. The issues NASA is fighting for such as; electoral justice; inclusion; end to tribalism; anti-corruption; economic justice; social justice, etc., are very popular and I expect more people to join than leave in a country like Kenya where the majority are suffering.
Kichwa and his hardliners jumping from one bad idea to next will drive moderates in nasa to jubilee making it even harder for themselves.The luhyas,kambas and the rest will bolt leaving luos in yet another long wilderness in political periphery.You cannot keep changing the rules.Gema and kalenjin alliance is beatable down the line...but not by Raila.Give Kalonzo a chance....he might appeal to gema or st least wont terrify them.Obviusly the luo nation feel entitled and therefore Raila will keep at it.This is great news for Ruto.Seem 2012 is walk over
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The secession is not our first agenda but it will be fine-tuned when/if it becomes the only alternative. Right now reforms/Changes is very popular and its jubilee who should worry about losing people not NASA.
Secession based on temporary political alliance is the most stupid idea yet.NASA wont last longer.Some many leaders are cutting deals coz they know Raila is stuck and wants to take them down.Kalonzo Wiper will be first to go...followed by MaDvD
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Kichwa we are still far from issue based politics people will join or leave based on the direction key political leaders from their tribe take.you cannot form secession kind of movement from such.if luos want to secede that will be something...but not loose nasa alliance.People including international community will actually sit down and listen to luo secession.
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Vooke, I know it is hard for you to fathom, but NASA is not relying on Jubilee's benevolence/acceptance/permission to achieve its goals. If I hear you correctly, you are saying that if Ouru's elections is upheld by SCOK, then NASA will have no choice but to wait for 2022 because Jubilee will not let them/permit them to pursue its goals. T Actually, NASA is not pegging its hopes and aspirations on this upcoming SCOK ruling or 2022. NASA will not participate in any other election until the changes it demands in the electoral system are made whether in 60 days, 90days or five years from now. NASA will continue to agitate for those changes but if at a certain point, NASA comes to the realization that those changes are not possible, then succession will be the only conversation, NASA will have with itself and others.
No sir,
I'm being real.
SCOK majority upholding Uhuruto elections will rally more of Kenia and world at large behind Uhuruto. It will also silence NGOists for a better part of the next 5yrs. It will further paint Babu's quest as mere bitterness at his bad decisions. You can forget any constitutional reforms till 2032
Claims of SCOK being blackmailed/compromised will only be entertained by NASWA diehards.
Invalidation of course would send Babu to heaven.
Everything Babu/NASWA does rises and falls on SCOK
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Vooke, Its nolonger, politics, PR and numbers for us. Its a conviction. We do not mind losing none-believers at this time-infact we encourage it. Pundit think its only luos but you would be surprised how many none-luos are involved at a very serious level. This movement is kicking off with more people than the Mau Mau, or the 2nd liberation movement. Imagine if half of the country boycotted the elections of 1992, do you think Moi would have survived for another 10 years. I am therefore very pleased at the numbers that we have right now and the fact that most NASA will not go back to another sham election regardless of what the western ambassadors in Nairobi think.
Vooke, I know it is hard for you to fathom, but NASA is not relying on Jubilee's benevolence/acceptance/permission to achieve its goals. If I hear you correctly, you are saying that if Ouru's elections is upheld by SCOK, then NASA will have no choice but to wait for 2022 because Jubilee will not let them/permit them to pursue its goals. T Actually, NASA is not pegging its hopes and aspirations on this upcoming SCOK ruling or 2022. NASA will not participate in any other election until the changes it demands in the electoral system are made whether in 60 days, 90days or five years from now. NASA will continue to agitate for those changes but if at a certain point, NASA comes to the realization that those changes are not possible, then succession will be the only conversation, NASA will have with itself and others.
No sir,
I'm being real.
SCOK majority upholding Uhuruto elections will rally more of Kenia and world at large behind Uhuruto. It will also silence NGOists for a better part of the next 5yrs. It will further paint Babu's quest as mere bitterness at his bad decisions. You can forget any constitutional reforms till 2032
Claims of SCOK being blackmailed/compromised will only be entertained by NASWA diehards.
Invalidation of course would send Babu to heaven.
Everything Babu/NASWA does rises and falls on SCOK
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Vooke, Its no longer, politics, PR and jubilee numbers for us. Its conviction. We do not mind losing none-believers at this time-infact we encourage them to leave. This thing is now bigger than the principles of NASA. Pundit think its only luos but he is only expressing WSR's long known political strategy to isolate the luos then rule Kenya happily ever after for eons. This movement is kicking off with more people than the Mau Mau, 1st liberation movement or the 2nd liberation movement. Imagine if half of the country boycotted the elections of 1992, Moi would not have survived another 10 years. I am therefore very pleased at the numbers that we have right now, I am not worried about losing any NASA principle, or this movement becoming a solely luo affair. The international community is very predictatable, they will always support the perceived winner and therefore neither Jubilee nor Nasa can really rely on them.
Vooke, I know it is hard for you to fathom, but NASA is not relying on Jubilee's benevolence/acceptance/permission to achieve its goals. If I hear you correctly, you are saying that if Ouru's elections is upheld by SCOK, then NASA will have no choice but to wait for 2022 because Jubilee will not let them/permit them to pursue its goals. T Actually, NASA is not pegging its hopes and aspirations on this upcoming SCOK ruling or 2022. NASA will not participate in any other election until the changes it demands in the electoral system are made whether in 60 days, 90days or five years from now. NASA will continue to agitate for those changes but if at a certain point, NASA comes to the realization that those changes are not possible, then succession will be the only conversation, NASA will have with itself and others.
No sir,
I'm being real.
SCOK majority upholding Uhuruto elections will rally more of Kenia and world at large behind Uhuruto. It will also silence NGOists for a better part of the next 5yrs. It will further paint Babu's quest as mere bitterness at his bad decisions. You can forget any constitutional reforms till 2032
Claims of SCOK being blackmailed/compromised will only be entertained by NASWA diehards.
Invalidation of course would send Babu to heaven.
Everything Babu/NASWA does rises and falls on SCOK
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Moonki, What you are saying to NASA is very similar to what Robina, Vooke and to a certain extent RV Pundit have been saying here all along. Its called "you have made enough noise; raised some interesting issues that should be looked into; however, now shut-up and prepare for 2022 and let the Ouruto do their thing".
That is a bizarre interpretation of what I wrote.
NASA would be stupid to listen to such advice and abandon its momentum for reforms/change and if all fails, secession. Actually 2022 is no longer an important date for some of us in NASA unless some very serious dialogue resulting in serious constitutional reforms are made in the way we conduct elections, treat ourselves and govern ourselves. If at a certain point NASA realizes that these goals cannot be realized, then secession, as amusing as it maybe to some, will be the only discussion that we will be having with our brothers and sisters in the republic. 2022 is therefore not a particularly very important or significant year to NASA as it maybe to Ruto.
Good luck with all of that.
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Vooke, Its nolonger, politics, PR and numbers for us. Its a conviction. We do not mind losing none-believers at this time-infact we encourage it. Pundit think its only luos but you would be surprised how many none-luos are involved at a very serious level. This movement is kicking off with more people than the Mau Mau, or the 2nd liberation movement. Imagine if half of the country boycotted the elections of 1992, do you think Moi would have survived for another 10 years. I am therefore very pleased at the numbers that we have right now and the fact that most NASA will not go back to another sham election regardless of what the western ambassadors in Nairobi think.
Invalidation will go a long way in giving meat to your convictions.
Upholding the victory will set you so far back than even before 2013. You have a world respected court calling your withdrawal BS. Babu will be conflicted between following katiba and going rogue. Jubilee will be sleeping as you scheme your next move
In short, everything Babu does is down to #WakoraNetwork
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Moonki, What you are saying to NASA is very similar to what Robina, Vooke and to a certain extent RV Pundit have been saying here all along. Its called "you have made enough noise; raised some interesting issues that should be looked into; however, now shut-up and prepare for 2022 and let the Ouruto do their thing".
That is a bizarre interpretation of what I wrote.
NASA would be stupid to listen to such advice and abandon its momentum for reforms/change and if all fails, secession. Actually 2022 is no longer an important date for some of us in NASA unless some very serious dialogue resulting in serious constitutional reforms are made in the way we conduct elections, treat ourselves and govern ourselves. If at a certain point NASA realizes that these goals cannot be realized, then secession, as amusing as it maybe to some, will be the only discussion that we will be having with our brothers and sisters in the republic. 2022 is therefore not a particularly very important or significant year to NASA as it maybe to Ruto.
Good luck with all of that.
Thank you, we need all the well wishes we can get. Its a tough job but someone has to do it.
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Vooke, Its nolonger, politics, PR and numbers for us. Its a conviction. We do not mind losing none-believers at this time-infact we encourage it. Pundit think its only luos but you would be surprised how many none-luos are involved at a very serious level. This movement is kicking off with more people than the Mau Mau, or the 2nd liberation movement. Imagine if half of the country boycotted the elections of 1992, do you think Moi would have survived for another 10 years. I am therefore very pleased at the numbers that we have right now and the fact that most NASA will not go back to another sham election regardless of what the western ambassadors in Nairobi think.
Invalidation will go a long way in giving meat to your convictions.
Upholding the victory will set you so far back than even before 2013. You have a world respected court calling your withdrawal BS. Babu will be conflicted between following katiba and going rogue. Jubilee will be sleeping as you scheme your next move
In short, everything Babu does is down to #WakoraNetwork
I don't think you've fully appreciated the impact of People's assemblies across the nation.
A nullification will actually offer a lifeline to the electoral fraudsters, for they could get away from their shameful sham election and even pretend to organise a more inclusive "reform" driven one.
A confirmation of the sham will not only strengthen the People's assemblies, but will place them in direct conflict with the criminal government. There will only be one winner. The People.
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Vooke, Its nolonger, politics, PR and numbers for us. Its a conviction. We do not mind losing none-believers at this time-infact we encourage it. Pundit think its only luos but you would be surprised how many none-luos are involved at a very serious level. This movement is kicking off with more people than the Mau Mau, or the 2nd liberation movement. Imagine if half of the country boycotted the elections of 1992, do you think Moi would have survived for another 10 years. I am therefore very pleased at the numbers that we have right now and the fact that most NASA will not go back to another sham election regardless of what the western ambassadors in Nairobi think.
Invalidation will go a long way in giving meat to your convictions.
Upholding the victory will set you so far back than even before 2013. You have a world respected court calling your withdrawal BS. Babu will be conflicted between following katiba and going rogue. Jubilee will be sleeping as you scheme your next move
In short, everything Babu does is down to #WakoraNetwork
I don't think you've fully appreciated the impact of People's assemblies across the nation.
A nullification will actually offer a lifeline to the electoral fraudsters, for they could get away from their shameful sham election and even pretend to organise a more inclusive "reform" driven one.
A confirmation of the sham will not only strengthen the People's assemblies, but will place them in direct conflict with the criminal government. There will only be one winner. The People.
I think vooke believes NASA is still playing the legalism game. I am not seeing any evidence that they have placed their cards on this court process. They are now selling secession to their base.
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Vooke, Its nolonger, politics, PR and numbers for us. Its a conviction. We do not mind losing none-believers at this time-infact we encourage it. Pundit think its only luos but you would be surprised how many none-luos are involved at a very serious level. This movement is kicking off with more people than the Mau Mau, or the 2nd liberation movement. Imagine if half of the country boycotted the elections of 1992, do you think Moi would have survived for another 10 years. I am therefore very pleased at the numbers that we have right now and the fact that most NASA will not go back to another sham election regardless of what the western ambassadors in Nairobi think.
Invalidation will go a long way in giving meat to your convictions.
Upholding the victory will set you so far back than even before 2013. You have a world respected court calling your withdrawal BS. Babu will be conflicted between following katiba and going rogue. Jubilee will be sleeping as you scheme your next move
In short, everything Babu does is down to #WakoraNetwork
I don't think you've fully appreciated the impact of People's assemblies across the nation.
A nullification will actually offer a lifeline to the electoral fraudsters, for they could get away from their shameful sham election and even pretend to organise a more inclusive "reform" driven one.
A confirmation of the sham will not only strengthen the People's assemblies, but will place them in direct conflict with the criminal government. There will only be one winner. The People.
I think vooke believes NASA is still playing the legalism game. I am not seeing any evidence that they have placed their cards on this court process. They are now selling secession to their base.
Invalidation is NASWA's lifeline and they know it. That's why they are so much after it though pretending they don't care
http://mobile.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Nasa-says-Uhuru-Kenyatta-terrorised-its-supporters/3126390-4184308-149vv4i/index.html
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Vooke, Its nolonger, politics, PR and numbers for us. Its a conviction. We do not mind losing none-believers at this time-infact we encourage it. Pundit think its only luos but you would be surprised how many none-luos are involved at a very serious level. This movement is kicking off with more people than the Mau Mau, or the 2nd liberation movement. Imagine if half of the country boycotted the elections of 1992, do you think Moi would have survived for another 10 years. I am therefore very pleased at the numbers that we have right now and the fact that most NASA will not go back to another sham election regardless of what the western ambassadors in Nairobi think.
Invalidation will go a long way in giving meat to your convictions.
Upholding the victory will set you so far back than even before 2013. You have a world respected court calling your withdrawal BS. Babu will be conflicted between following katiba and going rogue. Jubilee will be sleeping as you scheme your next move
In short, everything Babu does is down to #WakoraNetwork
I don't think you've fully appreciated the impact of People's assemblies across the nation.
A nullification will actually offer a lifeline to the electoral fraudsters, for they could get away from their shameful sham election and even pretend to organise a more inclusive "reform" driven one.
A confirmation of the sham will not only strengthen the People's assemblies, but will place them in direct conflict with the criminal government. There will only be one winner. The People.
I think vooke believes NASA is still playing the legalism game. I am not seeing any evidence that they have placed their cards on this court process. They are now selling secession to their base.
Invalidation is NASWA's lifeline and they know it. That's why they are so much after it though pretending they don't care
http://mobile.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Nasa-says-Uhuru-Kenyatta-terrorised-its-supporters/3126390-4184308-149vv4i/index.html
I have actually seen that story. That is opportunistic more than anything else. NASA is not really invested in this court process. SCOK is compromised. The man with the iron balls may be the only one left standing. Now if a chance comes their way to shit on the jubilant head, I wouldn’t expect them to pass it up.
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Jubilee can debate this matter amongst themselves all they want but we in NASA have come to the conclusion that we are no longer going to participate in any sham elections again, EVER, until the electoral process is fixed to our satisfaction. Naisitoshe, If it is not fixed, we are going to secede. You can now go ahead and call us names if it makes you feel better.
In January after Chebukati was appointed we were assured the rigging machinery had been decimated. Now the poor man must go. In 2022 it'll be the same story - the sophisticated machinery - after Raila's upteenth beating. He needs to let fresh ideas take root - instead of the stale boycott :) - like Bob Dole, Al Gore, Mitt Romney and other democrats.
Exactly.
That Raila lost to Uhuruto can only be blamed on the chaotic mess that was NASA.
And NASA, instead of taking responsibility for their own shortcomings, believe pushing the blame away will work wonders.
If NASA continues on this self-destructive path, Ruto might make it in 2022 (that is, if the MKM allow him...which I doubt).
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And we will not allow you to secede.Not when Ruto is about to become PORK :) you'll be part of kenya upende usipende. You'll obey all kenyan laws. You'll pay taxes.You'll be a proud kenyan. The makondes, the asians, the nubians and many folks are all dying to become kenyans and here you're claiming you want to secede? Never gonna happen. It eaiser for Raila to become PORK than for you to secede.
When Raila was PM - and acting all executive - we did not secede. When Jaramogi was VP - we did not secede. We went to boardroom and strategize. We formed alliance. We changed alliances. We made new friends out of enemies. That is politics. Everytime you lose an election - you're going to secede? No - you're going to sit down and have serious genuine talk - and find a way back to power. It may entail for example supporting WSR in 2022 :D :D and buying time for 2032.
Jubilee can debate this matter amongst themselves all they want but we in NASA have come to the conclusion that we are no longer going to participate in any sham elections again, EVER, until the electoral process is fixed to our satisfaction. Naisitoshe, If it is not fixed, we are going to secede. You can now go ahead and call us names if it makes you feel better.
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By 2022 Uhuruto will have severely pillaged NASA - and hived off a huge chunk to Jubilee - Kichwa will have to redraw that "people's republic" map to a few sparse dots all over Kenya.
And we will not allow you to secede.Not when Ruto is about to become PORK :) you'll be part of kenya upende usipende. You'll obey all kenyan laws. You'll pay taxes.You'll be a proud kenyan. The makondes, the asians, the nubians and many folks are all dying to become kenyans and here you're claiming you want to secede? Never gonna happen. It eaiser for Raila to become PORK than for you to secede.
When Raila was PM - and acting all executive - we did not secede. When Jaramogi was VP - we did not secede. We went to boardroom and strategize. We formed alliance. We changed alliances. We made new friends out of enemies. That is politics. Everytime you lose an election - you're going to secede? No - you're going to sit down and have serious genuine talk - and find a way back to power. It may entail for example supporting WSR in 2022 :D :D and buying time for 2032.
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That was actually very funny.
And we will not allow you to secede.Not when Ruto is about to become PORK :) you'll be part of kenya upende usipende. You'll obey all kenyan laws. You'll pay taxes.You'll be a proud kenyan. The makondes, the asians, the nubians and many folks are all dying to become kenyans and here you're claiming you want to secede? Never gonna happen. It eaiser for Raila to become PORK than for you to secede.
When Raila was PM - and acting all executive - we did not secede. When Jaramogi was VP - we did not secede. We went to boardroom and strategize. We formed alliance. We changed alliances. We made new friends out of enemies. That is politics. Everytime you lose an election - you're going to secede? No - you're going to sit down and have serious genuine talk - and find a way back to power. It may entail for example supporting WSR in 2022 :D :D and buying time for 2032.
Jubilee can debate this matter amongst themselves all they want but we in NASA have come to the conclusion that we are no longer going to participate in any sham elections again, EVER, until the electoral process is fixed to our satisfaction. Naisitoshe, If it is not fixed, we are going to secede. You can now go ahead and call us names if it makes you feel better.
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...and you have that much faith in Ouru?
By 2022 Uhuruto will have severely pillaged NASA - and hived off a huge chunk to Jubilee - Kichwa will have to redraw that "people's republic" map to a few sparse dots all over Kenya.
And we will not allow you to secede.Not when Ruto is about to become PORK :) you'll be part of kenya upende usipende. You'll obey all kenyan laws. You'll pay taxes.You'll be a proud kenyan. The makondes, the asians, the nubians and many folks are all dying to become kenyans and here you're claiming you want to secede? Never gonna happen. It eaiser for Raila to become PORK than for you to secede.
When Raila was PM - and acting all executive - we did not secede. When Jaramogi was VP - we did not secede. We went to boardroom and strategize. We formed alliance. We changed alliances. We made new friends out of enemies. That is politics. Everytime you lose an election - you're going to secede? No - you're going to sit down and have serious genuine talk - and find a way back to power. It may entail for example supporting WSR in 2022 :D :D and buying time for 2032.
-
Jubilee can debate this matter amongst themselves all they want but we in NASA have come to the conclusion that we are no longer going to participate in any sham elections again, EVER, until the electoral process is fixed to our satisfaction. Naisitoshe, If it is not fixed, we are going to secede. You can now go ahead and call us names if it makes you feel better.
In January after Chebukati was appointed we were assured the rigging machinery had been decimated. Now the poor man must go. In 2022 it'll be the same story - the sophisticated machinery - after Raila's upteenth beating. He needs to let fresh ideas take root - instead of the stale boycott :) - like Bob Dole, Al Gore, Mitt Romney and other democrats.
Exactly.
That Raila lost to Uhuruto can only be blamed on the chaotic mess that was NASA.
And NASA, instead of taking responsibility for their own shortcomings, believe pushing the blame away will work wonders.
If NASA continues on this self-destructive path, Ruto might make it in 2022 (that is, if the MKM allow him...which I doubt).
Name calling is childish and I'll not engage in it.
That said, the boycott has largely failed (was expected to anyhow: https://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2017/11/13/calling-for-boycott-is-equal-to-shooting-ourselves-in-the-foot_c1668367) and the secession talk is just a poor attempt to negotiate nusu. It ain't happening and, if I were still in ODM, I'd seriously tell them off.
Now with this big rally planned for Thursday's homecoming of Rao, just remember the exact same thing was tried in 2014 and failed horribly.
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Jubilee can debate this matter amongst themselves all they want but we in NASA have come to the conclusion that we are no longer going to participate in any sham elections again, EVER, until the electoral process is fixed to our satisfaction. Naisitoshe, If it is not fixed, we are going to secede. You can now go ahead and call us names if it makes you feel better.
In January after Chebukati was appointed we were assured the rigging machinery had been decimated. Now the poor man must go. In 2022 it'll be the same story - the sophisticated machinery - after Raila's upteenth beating. He needs to let fresh ideas take root - instead of the stale boycott :) - like Bob Dole, Al Gore, Mitt Romney and other democrats.
Exactly.
That Raila lost to Uhuruto can only be blamed on the chaotic mess that was NASA.
And NASA, instead of taking responsibility for their own shortcomings, believe pushing the blame away will work wonders.
If NASA continues on this self-destructive path, Ruto might make it in 2022 (that is, if the MKM allow him...which I doubt).
Name calling is childish and I'll not engage in it.
That said, the boycott has largely failed (was expected to anyhow: https://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2017/11/13/calling-for-boycott-is-equal-to-shooting-ourselves-in-the-foot_c1668367) and the secession talk is just a poor attempt to negotiate nusu. It ain't happening and, if I were still in ODM, I'd seriously tell them off.
Now with this big rally planned for Thursday's homecoming of Rao, just remember the exact same thing was tried in 2014 and failed horribly.
Very nice Jubilee talking points. What are we supposed to do with them given that NASA also have their own talking points. The physical secession maybe a few years from now but I feel like we already live in two countries. They say that you know a marriage is in deep trouble when the couples stop caring what the other is doing or saying.
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I have actually seen that story. That is opportunistic more than anything else. NASA is not really invested in this court process. SCOK is compromised. The man with the iron balls may be the only one left standing. Now if a chance comes their way to shit on the jubilant head, I wouldn’t expect them to pass it up.
Yeah right
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Jubilee can debate this matter amongst themselves all they want but we in NASA have come to the conclusion that we are no longer going to participate in any sham elections again, EVER, until the electoral process is fixed to our satisfaction. Naisitoshe, If it is not fixed, we are going to secede. You can now go ahead and call us names if it makes you feel better.
In January after Chebukati was appointed we were assured the rigging machinery had been decimated. Now the poor man must go. In 2022 it'll be the same story - the sophisticated machinery - after Raila's upteenth beating. He needs to let fresh ideas take root - instead of the stale boycott :) - like Bob Dole, Al Gore, Mitt Romney and other democrats.
Exactly.
That Raila lost to Uhuruto can only be blamed on the chaotic mess that was NASA.
And NASA, instead of taking responsibility for their own shortcomings, believe pushing the blame away will work wonders.
If NASA continues on this self-destructive path, Ruto might make it in 2022 (that is, if the MKM allow him...which I doubt).
Name calling is childish and I'll not engage in it.
That said, the boycott has largely failed (was expected to anyhow: https://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2017/11/13/calling-for-boycott-is-equal-to-shooting-ourselves-in-the-foot_c1668367) and the secession talk is just a poor attempt to negotiate nusu. It ain't happening and, if I were still in ODM, I'd seriously tell them off.
Now with this big rally planned for Thursday's homecoming of Rao, just remember the exact same thing was tried in 2014 and failed horribly.
Very nice Jubilee talking points. What are we supposed to do with them given that NASA also have their own talking points. The physical secession maybe a few years from now but I feel like we already live in two countries. They say that you know a marriage is in deep trouble when the couples stop caring what the other is doing or saying.
There you go again, thinking binary as usual.
So what are NASA's talking points and, besides blabbering nonstop about secession, what are NASA's plans to empower the new citizens of PRK? How will PRK be any different from what we have today? Policy plans? Economic plans? Industrialization plans? Monetary plans?
The only thing I see NASA tapping is the anger/fear of it's supporters to gain power, just as Jubilee has done, with unrealistic dreams.
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There you go again. You accuse me of being binary (whatever that means), then in the same breath you Proceed to regurgitate/recite the same talking points that Jubilee talking heads spew everyday on national TV with the same superiority complex, arrogance and condescending attitude to boot. We stoped caring about your opinions/matusi along time ago if you have not noticed, so go ahead and knock yourself out. We are already psychologically living in two countries. We know it because we have been living in two different countries for awhile and we finally found our voice that has been suppressed and ridiculed by your kind. This is why we understand you but you are struggling to understand us because you never considered us as a people with political views, dreams and aspirations different from yours.
Jubilee can debate this matter amongst themselves all they want but we in NASA have come to the conclusion that we are no longer going to participate in any sham elections again, EVER, until the electoral process is fixed to our satisfaction. Naisitoshe, If it is not fixed, we are going to secede. You can now go ahead and call us names if it makes you feel better.
In January after Chebukati was appointed we were assured the rigging machinery had been decimated. Now the poor man must go. In 2022 it'll be the same story - the sophisticated machinery - after Raila's upteenth beating. He needs to let fresh ideas take root - instead of the stale boycott :) - like Bob Dole, Al Gore, Mitt Romney and other democrats.
Exactly.
That Raila lost to Uhuruto can only be blamed on the chaotic mess that was NASA.
And NASA, instead of taking responsibility for their own shortcomings, believe pushing the blame away will work wonders.
If NASA continues on this self-destructive path, Ruto might make it in 2022 (that is, if the MKM allow him...which I doubt).
Name calling is childish and I'll not engage in it.
That said, the boycott has largely failed (was expected to anyhow: https://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2017/11/13/calling-for-boycott-is-equal-to-shooting-ourselves-in-the-foot_c1668367) and the secession talk is just a poor attempt to negotiate nusu. It ain't happening and, if I were still in ODM, I'd seriously tell them off.
Now with this big rally planned for Thursday's homecoming of Rao, just remember the exact same thing was tried in 2014 and failed horribly.
Very nice Jubilee talking points. What are we supposed to do with them given that NASA also have their own talking points. The physical secession maybe a few years from now but I feel like we already live in two countries. They say that you know a marriage is in deep trouble when the couples stop caring what the other is doing or saying.
There you go again, thinking binary as usual.
So what are NASA's talking points and, besides blabbering nonstop about secession, what are NASA's plans to empower the new citizens of PRK? How will PRK be any different from what we have today? Policy plans? Economic plans? Industrialization plans? Monetary plans?
The only thing I see NASA tapping is the anger/fear of it's supporters to gain power, just as Jubilee has done, with unrealistic dreams.