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Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: GeeMail on September 08, 2017, 01:01:25 PM

Title: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: GeeMail on September 08, 2017, 01:01:25 PM
Zamunda people are reporting he sang wid di Mob at a major rally yesterday. Played back vocals in From Eurobond Wid De Luv. Does it add value to di Mob?
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Omollo on September 08, 2017, 01:12:38 PM
If true , watch the metamorphosis of our local Jubilee Youth winger! He has said Ruto has no influence or votes.

Watch him state how that would be a huge shift. He would add to Uhuru 300% or whatever percentage he will pull from God only knows where.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: GeeMail on September 08, 2017, 01:24:09 PM
https://www.tuko.co.ke/251484-isaac-ruto-dumps-nasa-defects-jubilee.html
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Nefertiti on September 08, 2017, 01:43:07 PM
I think it is more likely NASA support will "normalize" to 6% like Kericho... from 12%. There are NASA supporters that will not move with him. Kenyan politicians are all about money and self interest so Uhuru's fat wallet wins. I imagine he has been rewarded for his "troubles". Don't be surprised if Munya suddenly sees the light too and runs back to Jubilee.

Kenya is not a democracy. This re-run is a waste of time.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: RV Pundit on September 08, 2017, 02:08:11 PM
Yeap - I had NASA at 11% in Bomet - I scored a bull-eyes - I think the number goes back to 2013 Uhuru or 2007 Raila figures - the issues that I am watching is whether immigrant workers(mostly Luos/Gusii) will be allowed to vote in Kericho-Bomet - they are 3% or about of the population. I believe Jubilee will score more than 92 - maybe 95% - and turn out will be bigger. SCOK decision has really spoked people...and on the weekend people were threatening to burn isaac home if dared say NASA.
I think it is more likely NASA support will "normalize" to 6% like Kericho... from 12%. There are NASA supporters that will not move with him. Kenyan politicians are all about money and self interest so Uhuru's fat wallet wins. I imagine he has been rewarded for his "troubles". Don't be surprised if Munya suddenly s ees the light too and runs back to Jubilee.

Kenya is not a democracy. This re-run is a waste of time.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: RV Pundit on September 08, 2017, 02:12:40 PM
You're talking about me?
MOAS final final - Raila in Bomet -11% - IEBC (11%)
MOAS final final - Raila in Kericho -6-7% - IEBC(7%)

Post Isaac (MOAS re-run inapikwa) - I am going with 94-95% for Uhuru in Bomet & Kericho - Also Narok is another nightmare, so is Nakuru - for NASA - in fact the whole of RV including Tranzoia is becoming one big nightmare for NASA.
If true , watch the metamorphosis of our local Jubilee Youth winger! He has said Ruto has no influence or votes.

Watch him state how that would be a huge shift. He would add to Uhuru 300% or whatever percentage he will pull from God only knows where.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Omollo on September 08, 2017, 02:19:40 PM
Why not 110% since you just cook up these figures?
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: RV Pundit on September 08, 2017, 02:22:39 PM
Hehehe. I am cooking MOAS re-run. The recipe is a secret. That you won't get. When you can predict that Bomet will vote 11% for Raila and they vote 11% like I did - then you can come and talk figures.
Why not 110% since you just cook up these figures?
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Omollo on September 08, 2017, 02:37:03 PM
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: RV Pundit on September 08, 2017, 02:37:57 PM
(https://scontent.fnbo3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21462323_1091328140970077_609992704805260369_n.jpg?oh=d983541889bb9cb0df50c6306c2372b0&oe=5A4B9ECF)
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Nefertiti on September 08, 2017, 02:42:27 PM
Pundit - what do you expect of turnout outside the strongholds of RV, Kikuyu, Luo, Kamba?
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Nefertiti on September 08, 2017, 02:46:45 PM
Isaac actually looks ashamed being such a turncoat... the cash must be good. I don't get why Omollo denies the reality of TUMBOCRACY - he coined the term  :)
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: RV Pundit on September 08, 2017, 03:03:34 PM
Very low. The interest was mainly local elections - governor or mp or mca - now hii ya PORK is for big tribes. For once despite giving huge turn out boost to Coast in MOAS - thinking MRC had suppressed turn out - they were even lower than 2013!

I am thinking of using historical turn out pre-2010 - I think high turn out (compared to historical average) in western, coast,gusii, northern kenya and such places that we saw in 2013 & 2017 (where it matches national average save for coast) will not be replicated - again they have no horses, no stake, it's no biggie for them.

We could go back to usual 40-60% in all those places - and high turn out in Luo, GEMA & Kalenjin land. Kambas I doubt have so much to play for here.

And this basically spell doom for NASA - whose base support is wide.

Pundit - what do you expect of turnout outside the strongholds of RV, Kikuyu, Luo, Kamba?
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Globalcitizen12 on September 08, 2017, 03:10:08 PM
NASA 45 becomes 41 percent
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: RV Pundit on September 08, 2017, 03:12:05 PM
It nightmarish.
(https://scontent.fnbo3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21369463_674665026071788_7734298915665561109_n.jpg?oh=f75357f65cbcf42c49433fc2182fcba7&oe=5A55435A)
NASA 45 becomes 41 percent
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Globalcitizen12 on September 08, 2017, 03:44:27 PM
The morons have no funds and are now asking supporters to pay to support them
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kichwa on September 08, 2017, 03:59:27 PM
Actually it is a very good idea to ask supporters to support the campaign as is common in mature democracies.  Supporters must be allowed to own the movement and the best way to feel part of a movement in this day and age is contribute towards its funding.  Politicians who are fighting on behalf of the people should not use their own monies even when they are rich.  NASA should continue urging wanaichi to chip in as little as 10/- so that they can be part of the movement.  The jubilee government is making sure that big international donors cannot fund NASA while Jubilee has unlimited access to state and stolen resources including monies being sent back into Kenya from stolen swiss accounts.  NASA does not need even half of what Jubilee will spend but it is better to get that money directly from the people of Kenya than jubilees stolen monies from the peoples of Kenya.

The morons have no funds and are now asking supporters to pay to support them
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: bryan275 on September 08, 2017, 04:04:17 PM
The morons have no funds and are now asking supporters to pay to support them

Well Jubilee have billions of stolen money to fund their campaign.  Since when was it a crime to ask the supporters to pay it forward in the absence of stolen money?

Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: vooke on September 08, 2017, 04:04:26 PM
Actually it is a very good idea to ask supporters to support the campaign as is common in mature democracies.  Supporters must be allowed to own the movement and the best way to feel part of a movement in this day and age is contribute towards its funding.  Politicians who are fighting on behalf of the people should not use their own monies even when they are rich.  NASA should continue urging wanaichi to chip in as little as 10/- so that they can be part of the movement.  The jubilee government is making sure that big international donors cannot fund NASA while Jubilee has unlimited access to state and stolen resources including monies being sent back into Kenya from stolen swiss accounts.  NASA does not need even half of what Jubilee will spend but it is better to get that money directly from the people of Kenya than jubilees stolen monies from the peoples of Kenya.

The morons have no funds and are now asking supporters to pay to support them

Correct.
But soliciting funds this late suggests desperation. They should have allowed or invited raia to fund them from after the primaries
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kichwa on September 08, 2017, 04:11:17 PM
You are still referring to an election which was declared null and void.  Times have changed. It used to be numbers generated by computers that counted, now it is the process that counts.  In the USA, the mafia used to destroy all the evidence and kill all the witnesses and even buy/intimidate the jury.  The mafia was untouchable until the federal government enacted RICO in the 70's. This law gave the prosecutors a lot of leeway to convict the mafia and is credited for the death of Mafia.  In Kenya, the Maraga court has began the process of defeating rigged elections by getting off the "numbers argument" and focusing on the process.  If Jubilee want to "win", they have to join NASA, and clean the process up or the court should continue to void these elections until the process can support the numbers and not the other way round.


You're talking about me?
MOAS final final - Raila in Bomet -11% - IEBC (11%)
MOAS final final - Raila in Kericho -6-7% - IEBC(7%)

Post Isaac (MOAS re-run inapikwa) - I am going with 94-95% for Uhuru in Bomet & Kericho - Also Narok is another nightmare, so is Nakuru - for NASA - in fact the whole of RV including Tranzoia is becoming one big nightmare for NASA.
If true , watch the metamorphosis of our local Jubilee Youth winger! He has said Ruto has no influence or votes.

Watch him state how that would be a huge shift. He would add to Uhuru 300% or whatever percentage he will pull from God only knows where.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: bryan275 on September 08, 2017, 04:13:16 PM
This is probably a good thing.  Looks like IR lacks the backbone for Opposition politics.  Only this time, he too is going to be swept away when the fat lady sings on 17th October....or before.

I doubt Jubilee will hold together until then...
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kichwa on September 08, 2017, 04:19:24 PM

You can call it desperation and they can call it money coming in. Why does it bother you so much. Sometimes you make silly arguments just to say something.

Actually it is a very good idea to ask supporters to support the campaign as is common in mature democracies.  Supporters must be allowed to own the movement and the best way to feel part of a movement in this day and age is contribute towards its funding.  Politicians who are fighting on behalf of the people should not use their own monies even when they are rich.  NASA should continue urging wanaichi to chip in as little as 10/- so that they can be part of the movement.  The jubilee government is making sure that big international donors cannot fund NASA while Jubilee has unlimited access to state and stolen resources including monies being sent back into Kenya from stolen swiss accounts.  NASA does not need even half of what Jubilee will spend but it is better to get that money directly from the people of Kenya than jubilees stolen monies from the peoples of Kenya.

The morons have no funds and are now asking supporters to pay to support them

Correct.
But soliciting funds this late suggests desperation. They should have allowed or invited raia to fund them from after the primaries
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants on September 08, 2017, 04:24:45 PM
This is probably a good thing.  Looks like IR lacks the backbone for Opposition politics.  Only this time, he too is going to be swept away when the fat lady sings on 17th October....or before.

I doubt Jubilee will hold together until then...

He subscribes to the mantra that man cannot live on principles alone.  The experience must have been harsh these last few months.  Now he can go back to drinking his tea from a thermos.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kichwa on September 08, 2017, 04:24:55 PM
I agree, fighting a sitting corrupt government needs balls made of steel. Imagine what Raila went through with all the national and international media coming down on him to concede or lose his legacy but he held on and the entire country is now benefiting from his ability to remain steadfast under a hail of fire.  IR buckled immediately and you do not need such people because the road to Canaan is still rigged with ID's, sea and land mines that can go off any time. 

This is probably a good thing.  Looks like IR lacks the backbone for Opposition politics.  Only this time, he too is going to be swept away when the fat lady sings on 17th October....or before.

I doubt Jubilee will hold together until then...
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants on September 08, 2017, 04:28:29 PM
I agree, fighting a sitting corrupt government needs balls made of steel. Imagine what Raila went through with all the national and international media coming down on him to concede or lose his legacy but he held on and the entire country is now benefiting from his ability to remain steadfast under a hail of fire.  IR buckled immediately and you do not need such people because the road to Canaan is still rigged with ID's, sea and land mines that can go off any time. 

This is probably a good thing.  Looks like IR lacks the backbone for Opposition politics.  Only this time, he too is going to be swept away when the fat lady sings on 17th October....or before.

I doubt Jubilee will hold together until then...

I admire Raila for that.  With his current stature, he could just fold and join the eating party in a big way.  But he has not, to his credit.  Kalonzo has surprised me the most.  A former Moi insider, he has demonstrated a spine I did not expect him to have.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: GeeMail on September 08, 2017, 04:39:09 PM
Kalonzo is indeed a surprise but lso are Madvd and Weta. The greatest asset for NASA now is the ability to stay the course. Everybody knows what size of carrot failed to secure the SCOK majority so you can't ask for any less.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kadame7 on September 08, 2017, 04:41:38 PM
I agree, fighting a sitting corrupt government needs balls made of steel. Imagine what Raila went through with all the national and international media coming down on him to concede or lose his legacy but he held on and the entire country is now benefiting from his ability to remain steadfast under a hail of fire.  IR buckled immediately and you do not need such people because the road to Canaan is still rigged with ID's, sea and land mines that can go off any time. 

This is probably a good thing.  Looks like IR lacks the backbone for Opposition politics.  Only this time, he too is going to be swept away when the fat lady sings on 17th October....or before.

I doubt Jubilee will hold together until then...

I admire Raila for that.  With his current stature, he could just fold and join the eating party in a big way.  But he has not, to his credit.  Kalonzo has surprised me the most.  A former Moi insider, he has demonstrated a spine I did not expect him to have.
This is why all that nusu mkate eagerness really bothers me. I don't want him to form a nusu mkate anything for anything. I'm sure Uhuru would be happy to give Raila 100 billion plus just to kill the headaches, constant whistleblowing, political uncertainty all the time. They have a big problem with him because they know he doesn't play ball. Which makes him dangerous. Everone else has folded eventually but he never has. And while he has a gazillion faults, I am confident of his basic good will for the country.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: GeeMail on September 08, 2017, 04:43:48 PM
I asked myself what value IR adds. Looking across the country the place Jubilee could have harvested was Kisii but that has been overturned and locked. Coast is even worse. Narok is the only place Kongi's harvest can be gotten. All other places were already MOASSED.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kichwa on September 08, 2017, 04:47:47 PM
The trick is NOT to be scared of the numbers psychological warfare that has been waged against the opposition ever since the Kalenjin/Kikuyu marriage. What sustain that numbers argument is corruption-stealing and bribery. Without the stealing, bribery, intimidation and killings, that numbers argument cannot be sustained just like we saw with the SCOK.  The justices refused to take bribes or to be intimidated and the numbers argument could not stand the process argument.  Our own RV Pundit is the chief priest of the fake numbers argument and that is why I ignore his fake math.   

Kalonzo is indeed a surprise but lso are Madvd and Weta. The greatest asset for NASA now is the ability to stay the course. Everybody knows what size of carrot failed to secure the SCOK majority so you can't ask for any less.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kichwa on September 08, 2017, 05:01:15 PM
It becomes easier to stay on course once you make the transition from self-interest to fighting for the good of the nation. The SCOK ruling made a lot of people make that transition. Also, this time around MDVD and Kalonzo felt some kind of ownership of NASA as opposed to ODM or CORD  and therefore could not jump their own ship.

Kalonzo is indeed a surprise but lso are Madvd and Weta. The greatest asset for NASA now is the ability to stay the course. Everybody knows what size of carrot failed to secure the SCOK majority so you can't ask for any less.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Ole on September 08, 2017, 05:09:01 PM
vooke might be right that NASA may have run out of cash; who wouldn't after running such a massive campaign? But the silver lining in this all exercise is that political parties will not be ashamed anymore to solicit cash from wananchi. And Wananchi will in return feel like they own the campaign process. My local mca had supporters fund his campaign and he easily defeated the incumbent who wash awashed with cash and watnot. This appeal for help might end up being a blessing in disguise.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kichwa on September 08, 2017, 05:18:31 PM
Its a very positive development in our fledgling democracy and it ought to be lauded instead of being demonized and made fun of. NASA should focus on getting out the votes and guarding the votes.  Trying to go on an arms-race with jubilee on those expensive rallies and time consuming rallies is not sustainable. NASA can actually reach people by asking for their help.  When someone gives 10 bob, that person is also more likely to vote than not. That is the kind of commitment they need. More door to door grassroots volunteer campaign and less of the expensive, loud, boisterous rallies. 

vooke might be right that NASA may have run out of cash; who wouldn't after running such a massive campaign? But the silver lining in this all exercise is that political parties will not be ashamed anymore to solicit cash from wananchi. And Wananchi will in return feel like they own the campaign process. My local mca had supporters fund his campaign and he easily defeated the incumbent who wash awashed with cash and watnot. This appeal for help might end up being a blessing in disguise.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants on September 08, 2017, 05:34:59 PM
I asked myself what value IR adds. Looking across the country the place Jubilee could have harvested was Kisii but that has been overturned and locked. Coast is even worse. Narok is the only place Kongi's harvest can be gotten. All other places were already MOASSED.

It's more psychological than anything.  The jubilants can use that to rouse their deflated base.  In terms of votes, he doesn't bring much, if Pundit is to be believed.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: MOON Ki on September 08, 2017, 05:56:41 PM
Kenyan politics are just a version of Koinange Street (with a bit of River Road thrown in).    Perhaps not surprising when political parties stand for nothing and cannot be distinguished in any way, other than "that is the one in which our man is a leader".
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kichwa on September 08, 2017, 06:02:37 PM
It takes sometime for political parties to stand for something. When we became a multi-party we probably thought that the political parties would automatically stand for something like in the more mature western democracies.  What is happening in Kenya now is that things are happening which will hopefully lead to political parties standing for something. It is already happening but it has not reached a critical mass.  That is why we cannot give up hope.

Kenyan politics are just a version of Koinange Street (with a bit of River Road thrown in).    Perhaps not surprising when political parties stand for nothing and cannot be distinguished in any way, other than "that is the one in which our man is a leader".
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Georgesoros on September 08, 2017, 06:09:39 PM
You are a pariah if you are principled in kenya. Money talks loud and clear. The only losers are the same cheering people. Their grand kids will be surrounded by poverty while the hyenas maraud the neighborhoods. Ethical principles are a western theories only practiced by losers. Survival for the fittest is the motto.


I think it is more likely NASA support will "normalize" to 6% like Kericho... from 12%. There are NASA supporters that will not move with him. Kenyan politicians are all about money and self interest so Uhuru's fat wallet wins. I imagine he has been rewarded for his "troubles". Don't be surprised if Munya suddenly sees the light too and runs back to Jubilee.

Kenya is not a democracy. This re-run is a waste of time.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants on September 08, 2017, 06:24:42 PM
It takes sometime for political parties to stand for something. When we became a multi-party we probably thought that the political parties would automatically stand for something like in the more mature western democracies.  What is happening in Kenya now is that things are happening which will hopefully lead to political parties standing for something. It is already happening but it has not reached a critical mass.  That is why we cannot give up hope.

Kenyan politics are just a version of Koinange Street (with a bit of River Road thrown in).    Perhaps not surprising when political parties stand for nothing and cannot be distinguished in any way, other than "that is the one in which our man is a leader".

I don't think parties can ever stand for more than our man's personal political vehicle in Kenya.  It's not in the Kenyan psyche; I haven't seen the evidence.  If the jubilant loses the coming election(assuming it somehow happens), Jubilee robbed of the power of patronage will just gradually vanish as the rats jump ship.  KANU folded, after 39 years in power as soon as they were out of power.  Jubilants don't have the stomach for opposition politics.  Their members will try to win favor with NASA in their own different ways.  There is no Raila there.

The "opposition" would be made up of fringe entities and civil society.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kichwa on September 08, 2017, 07:07:11 PM
The opposition has actually stood for something in Kenya that can be articulated in more than one way to mean-democracy, freedoms, change, multi-party, devolution, good governance, anti-corruption, etc.  It is hard to articulate what the party in power since independence has stood for other than describe them as conservatives.  During the cold war, they described themselves as free-marketers/capitalists to endear themselves to the USA.  Right now they call themselves "developers" as if some people are against development. 


It takes sometime for political parties to stand for something. When we became a multi-party we probably thought that the political parties would automatically stand for something like in the more mature western democracies.  What is happening in Kenya now is that things are happening which will hopefully lead to political parties standing for something. It is already happening but it has not reached a critical mass.  That is why we cannot give up hope.

Kenyan politics are just a version of Koinange Street (with a bit of River Road thrown in).    Perhaps not surprising when political parties stand for nothing and cannot be distinguished in any way, other than "that is the one in which our man is a leader".

I don't think parties can ever stand for more than our man's personal political vehicle in Kenya.  It's not in the Kenyan psyche; I haven't seen the evidence.  If the jubilant loses the coming election(assuming it somehow happens), Jubilee robbed of the power of patronage will just gradually vanish as the rats jump ship.  KANU folded, after 39 years in power as soon as they were out of power.  Jubilants don't have the stomach for opposition politics.  Their members will try to win favor with NASA in their own different ways.  There is no Raila there.

The "opposition" would be made up of fringe entities and civil society.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Globalcitizen12 on September 08, 2017, 11:25:45 PM
Tribal derby ..that is Kenya politics in a nut shell..kabila hili lipigane na kabila lile
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Nefertiti on September 09, 2017, 04:39:06 AM
Government is about citizen wellbeing. This means in Sub Sahara where poverty is the principal concern, choice and therefore packaging of parties is rightly about development. The debate is what is the best approach to this? and of course there are many ways to slaughter the elephant. The "developers" mean to say the "reformers" are wrong because excess [public] freedom is disruptive to the economy. Liberals trumpet the freedom dividend.

There is no panacea to prosperity. The US gospel of liberal democracy has been turned on its head by the Asian Tigers and then especially China as the resurgent autocracy without oil. It's a paradigm shift. You saw Jubilee sending a "fact mission" to study the Communist Party without batting an eyelid. Why NASA didn't fuss? -China is a success story to the 3rd world. I see not just the opportunity in the China v West scenario but also the confusion it causes in us.

The conservatives / developers repulse you - Kichwa - because you're a reformer. I don't see your leaning as unfairly ethnic (Pundit's criticism of you). I am saying in many words when "they" beguile you so much... ask why and don't be righteous.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kichwa on September 09, 2017, 06:01:40 AM
Robina,  I have a lot of respect for people with different political opinions from mine.  However, I do not consider corruption, tribalism, incompetence, political marginalization, dictatorships, denying people their freedoms, etc as political opinions that I need to respect or accept.  I disagree with RV Pundit because he accepts tribalism as a reality and argues that we can have economic development and be corrupt at the same time. I do not think it is the same thing as having an ideological argument.  There are certain basic things that we have to agree on first and everything cannot be a matter of opinion.  We should all be against tribalism, corruption, dictatorship, impunity, incompetence and bad governance just to mention a few ground rules.

Government is about citizen wellbeing. This means in Sub Sahara where poverty is the principal concern, choice and therefore packaging of parties is rightly about development. The debate is what is the best approach to this? and of course there are many ways to slaughter the elephant. The "developers" mean to say the "reformers" are wrong because excess [public] freedom is disruptive to the economy. Liberals trumpet the freedom dividend.

There is no panacea to prosperity. The US gospel of liberal democracy has been turned on its head by the Asian Tigers and then especially China as the resurgent autocracy without oil. It's a paradigm shift. You saw Jubilee sending a "fact mission" to study the Communist Party without batting an eyelid. Why NASA didn't fuss? -China is a success story to the 3rd world. I see not just the opportunity in the China v West scenario but also the confusion it causes in us.

The conservatives / developers repulse you - Kichwa - because you're a reformer. I don't see your leaning as unfairly ethnic (Pundit's criticism of you). I am saying in many words when "they" beguile you so much... ask why and don't be righteous.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Nefertiti on September 09, 2017, 11:19:23 AM
Thanks for not declaring me wanted  :)

Obviously the rule of law is a basic foundation. My worry is you have conflated coservatism in Kenya with corruption, impunity, etc. which are just human vices. Integrity is character not ideology: they are not corrupt because they are conservative. Everytime the opposition or reform camp has chanced on power they indulged in malfeasance and largesse. That is why I sneer when people say corruption would end if Raila or NASA comes to power. He is reliably social liberal but not necessarily corrupt-free. Some loudmouths and  objectionists would have to lie low too including current cheerers. This would not derail the agenda.

About corruption. I don't think Pundit or anyone says it's good. It's a vice we all have to contend with along with tribalism. These vices will die naturally as we develop and evolve.


Robina,  I have a lot of respect for people with different political opinions from mine.  However, I do not consider corruption, tribalism, incompetence, political marginalization, dictatorships, denying people their freedoms, etc as political opinions that I need to respect or accept.  I disagree with RV Pundit because he accepts tribalism as a reality and argues that we can have economic development and be corrupt at the same time. I do not think it is the same thing as having an ideological argument.  There are certain basic things that we have to agree on first and everything cannot be a matter of opinion.  We should all be against tribalism, corruption, dictatorship, impunity, incompetence and bad governance just to mention a few ground rules.

Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kadame7 on September 09, 2017, 11:39:23 AM
Lol! What conservatism exists in Kenyan politics? Desire for power or more centralized power with fewer checks is NOT conservatism by any definition ever. There's no conservatism in Kenya.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: bryan275 on September 09, 2017, 11:42:57 AM
Lol! What conservatism exists in Kenyan politics? Desire for power or more centralized power with fewer checks is NOT conservatism by any definition ever. There's no conservatism in Kenya.


Extreme tribalism is some crude form of conservatism.

Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kadame7 on September 09, 2017, 11:54:19 AM
Lol! What conservatism exists in Kenyan politics? Desire for power or more centralized power with fewer checks is NOT conservatism by any definition ever. There's no conservatism in Kenya.


Extreme tribalism is some crude form of conservatism.
That's not conservatism. It's nationalism or far right politics. Ugly stuff. I know since Trump's weird relationship with ethno nationalists (white racists) this has come to be confused with conservatism but the two have no necessary relationship.

Conservatism is an ideology about the role of government in a person's life and the relationship between central government and local governments. Pro-devolutionism is a form of sensible conservatism, actually, fighting the role of the central govt where it's not necessary. Tea partiers take it to a whole other level: govt should NOT even help you to not die if it can be avoided. I've seen some real heartless arguments from deeply religious folks who are Tea-party form of conservative, and it can make your head spin. The most extreme conservatives ever.

To give you a good example to distinguish them, tea partiers like kina Ted Cruz are extreme conservatives. But they are not racists. More like people we think are incredibly heartless vis-a-vis the poor. It tends to get conflated with racism because a lot of poor are disproportionately non-white and of recent migrant heritage. But the core of it is rich and poor.

The thing people associated with Trump are accused of is far sinister. They have zero problems with the govt getting into all these social welfare stuff actually, as long as it's for white people. They are terrified that whites are becoming fewer and losing their power. They are not accused of conservatism. They are accused of straight-up open racism.

What is most unfortunate about American politics in my opinion, is that the two are more and more pushed together so that these days their politics is becoming more and more familiar to a Kenyan like me (more nationalist fights, less fights on proper governance philosphies), which is very sad.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: bryan275 on September 09, 2017, 12:26:10 PM
Lol! What conservatism exists in Kenyan politics? Desire for power or more centralized power with fewer checks is NOT conservatism by any definition ever. There's no conservatism in Kenya.


Extreme tribalism is some crude form of conservatism.
That's not conservatism. It's nationalism or far right politics. Ugly stuff. I know since Trump's weird relationship with ethno nationalists (white racists) this has come to be confused with conservatism but the two have no necessary relationship.

Conservatism is an ideology about the role of government in a person's life and the relationship between central government and local governments. Pro-devolutionism is a form of sensible conservatism, actually, fighting the role of the central govt where it's not necessary. Tea partiers take it to a whole other level: govt should NOT even help you to not die if it can be avoided. I've seen some real heartless arguments from deeply religious folks who are Tea-party form of conservative, and it can make your head spin. The most extreme conservatives ever.

To give you a good example to distinguish them, tea partiers like kina Ted Cruz are extreme conservatives. But they are not racists. More like people we think are incredibly heartless vis-a-vis the poor. It tends to get conflated with racism because a lot of poor are disproportionately non-white and of recent migrant heritage. But the core of it is rich and poor.

The thing people associated with Trump are accused of is far sinister. They have zero problems with the govt getting into all these social welfare stuff actually, as long as it's for white people. They are terrified that whites are becoming fewer and losing their power. They are not accused of conservatism. They are accused of straight-up open racism.

What is most unfortunate about American politics in my opinion, is that the two are more and more pushed together so that these days their politics is becoming more and more familiar to a Kenyan like me (more nationalist fights, less fights on proper governance philosphies), which is very sad.

I agree with you on Ted Cruz' type of conservatism, but submit that he's probably not (too) racist because of his ethnic heritage.  Brexit has it's roots in the same white supremacist foundations that Trumps supporters have and the fear they have of a perceived diminishing white race.  Where I live, there are very very few none white Englishmen and women, however the anti immigration campaign touched my neighbours etc.  They were all convinced that they were being overrun by immigrants. 

Getting back to Kenyan type of politics and it's influence on Brexit.  I noticed that the very tribalisitic Kenyans also tended to vote Brexit with the foundations of their decisions strangely rooted in a somewhat racist hatred for Eastern Europeans.  It was weird to witness.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants on September 09, 2017, 03:41:42 PM
Lol! What conservatism exists in Kenyan politics? Desire for power or more centralized power with fewer checks is NOT conservatism by any definition ever. There's no conservatism in Kenya.

Status quo is the closest one gets to conservatism.  They are conservative in the sense that they are opposed to fundamental change.  Not because they hold what are typically conservative values.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: vooke on September 09, 2017, 03:46:25 PM

You can call it desperation and they can call it money coming in. Why does it bother you so much. Sometimes you make silly arguments just to say something.

Actually it is a very good idea to ask supporters to support the campaign as is common in mature democracies.  Supporters must be allowed to own the movement and the best way to feel part of a movement in this day and age is contribute towards its funding.  Politicians who are fighting on behalf of the people should not use their own monies even when they are rich.  NASA should continue urging wanaichi to chip in as little as 10/- so that they can be part of the movement.  The jubilee government is making sure that big international donors cannot fund NASA while Jubilee has unlimited access to state and stolen resources including monies being sent back into Kenya from stolen swiss accounts.  NASA does not need even half of what Jubilee will spend but it is better to get that money directly from the people of Kenya than jubilees stolen monies from the peoples of Kenya.

The morons have no funds and are now asking supporters to pay to support them

Correct.
But soliciting funds this late suggests desperation. They should have allowed or invited raia to fund them from after the primaries
Crowdfunding is a good idea, I pointed out the desperation behind this move. That hurts I know but hats your problem. I'd say the same if Jubilee resorted to soliciting pennies from raia days to the election
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Omollo on September 09, 2017, 04:30:24 PM
Vooke

What makes you say NASA is desperate and that it's not seeking support for the reasons given and which you partially agree with before returning to the Uthamaki line?

NASA is running its campaign as we speak! Safaricom has practically frozen the funds being contributed citing various excuses. I doubt that that money if any will ever be given to NASA if Jubilee has any say.

This is a genius method to counter the give me kitu kidogo disease. NASA has cured that distemper by reversing the roles.

Jubilee can now pour money and our people are under clear instructions to consume as much of that money as possible. If given 500 they should now the messenger was given ten times what he handed over!

Next week you will see your first roasted chief complete with the ID cards he would have been buying. Chief Choma :D :D :D
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kichwa on September 09, 2017, 04:46:12 PM
I still cannot understand how asking wanaichi to contribute towards a campaign can be vilified in a democracy? It defies logic.



Vooke

What makes you say NASA is desperate and that it's not seeking support for the reasons given and which you partially agree with before returning to the Uthamaki line?

NASA is running its campaign as we speak! Safaricom has practically frozen the funds being contributed citing various excuses. I doubt that that money if any will ever be given to NASA if Jubilee has any say.

This is a genius method to counter the give me kitu kidogo disease. NASA has cured that distemper by reversing the roles.

Jubilee can now pour money and our people are under clear instructions to consume as much of that money as possible. If given 500 they should now the messenger was given ten times what he handed over!

Next week you will see your first roasted chief complete with the ID cards he would have been buying. Chief Choma :D :D :D
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kadame7 on September 09, 2017, 05:04:17 PM
Lol! What conservatism exists in Kenyan politics? Desire for power or more centralized power with fewer checks is NOT conservatism by any definition ever. There's no conservatism in Kenya.

Status quo is the closest one gets to conservatism.  They are conservative in the sense that they are opposed to fundamental change.  Not because they hold what are typically conservative values.
Termi, even this is not conservatism. They only oppose change NOW while they wield power, not as a matter of principle. And they are all pro changes that will give them more power. Michuki said it very well,

"We wanted a new constitution because others were in power, now that we are in power, its not really necessary"

So there's nothing about opposing change per se, it's all about power and advantages to a certain lot. When they are out of power, they will support all changes that distributes power and equalizes things in their favour. When they hold it, it becomes pro status quo. There are no consistent principles to speak of except what favours a certain very limited lot. It's all situational conservatism and liberalism depending on how it favours the interests of about 200 human beings, not even a whole class of people. It's all very personalized politics, not that far removed from an ancient monarchy where the whims of an individual or a very tiny court of individuals determined direction.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: vooke on September 09, 2017, 06:20:06 PM
Vooke

What makes you say NASA is desperate and that it's not seeking support for the reasons given and which you partially agree with before returning to the Uthamaki line?

NASA is running its campaign as we speak! Safaricom has practically frozen the funds being contributed citing various excuses. I doubt that that money if any will ever be given to NASA if Jubilee has any say.

This is a genius method to counter the give me kitu kidogo disease. NASA has cured that distemper by reversing the roles.

Jubilee can now pour money and our people are under clear instructions to consume as much of that money as possible. If given 500 they should now the messenger was given ten times what he handed over!

Next week you will see your first roasted chief complete with the ID cards he would have been buying. Chief Choma :D :D :D

Omorlo,
You damn well know it is. They had since April primaries to sell this idea. Why now and not before?  They certainly had no need  a of raia funds right up to nane nane. They simply snubbed raia and stuck with dinners. Only time they went traia was with adopt-a-station drive.

I'm told the paybill number has been around for months. NASWA Im inclined to believe were inspired by Boniface Mwangi.

I Wish them luck.
Title: Re: Isaac Ruto rejoins DiMob
Post by: Kichwa on September 09, 2017, 06:43:17 PM
Maybe they were inspired by what's been happening in the West for years.  This is not a new idea.  NASA does not have the gazzillions of money that the Kenyattaa family and friends have.  I do not therefore understand the utoto about all this.

Vooke

What makes you say NASA is desperate and that it's not seeking support for the reasons given and which you partially agree with before returning to the Uthamaki line?

NASA is running its campaign as we speak! Safaricom has practically frozen the funds being contributed citing various excuses. I doubt that that money if any will ever be given to NASA if Jubilee has any say.

This is a genius method to counter the give me kitu kidogo disease. NASA has cured that distemper by reversing the roles.

Jubilee can now pour money and our people are under clear instructions to consume as much of that money as possible. If given 500 they should now the messenger was given ten times what he handed over!

Next week you will see your first roasted chief complete with the ID cards he would have been buying. Chief Choma :D :D :D

Omorlo,
You damn well know it is. They had since April primaries to sell this idea. Why now and not before?  They certainly had no need  a of raia funds right up to nane nane. They simply snubbed raia and stuck with dinners. Only time they went traia was with adopt-a-station drive.

I'm told the paybill number has been around for months. NASWA Im inclined to believe were inspired by Boniface Mwangi.

I Wish them luck.