Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Omollo on September 04, 2017, 01:55:56 AM
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The country is divided down the middle. Whoever wins in November will face a hostile half of the country. We have to seriously think about talking to each other.
Right now NASA and Jubilee are talking but through megaphones. Each one is saying NO to Nusu Mkate. These "talks" should be structured. Even that John Kerry is a possible mediator.
I am just thinking aloud.
The IEBC is damaged. Jubilee is comfortable with it because it can control it. NASA is comfortable with the Judiciary but Jubilee is hell bent against it. Where shall we end? The IEBC just disobeyed court orders.
Parliament is illegitimate. It can't be trusted by NASA to transact business.
The wrong elections will be held. It is the parliamentary elections to come first.
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In about 2 months somebody will be declared a winner. Then life will go on.
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Kenya is changing very quickly and one cannot assume that everything is going to be ok and life will go on as usual. I watched the NASA crowd to day and Jubilee crowds yesterday and its amazing how quickly the youth is getting radicalized. The speakers are cheered on the more extreme their utterances are. The NASA crowd want to hear from Joho and Babu Owino and Oururuto are cheered on when they issue threats and insult to the judiciary. Everybody is claiming that they are men and will not be tishwad. One cannot therefore claim that all you need is for ouru or Raila to win and people will fall on line. Responsible leaders are those who manage change so that it does not consume all of us.
In about 2 months somebody will be declared a winner. Then life will go on.
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Kenya is changing very quickly and one cannot assume that everything is going to be ok and life will go on as usual. I watched the NASA crowd to day and Jubilee crowds yesterday and its amazing how quickly the youth is getting radicalized. The speakers are cheered on the more extreme their utterances are. The NASA crowd want to hear from Joho and Babu Owino and Oururuto are cheered on when they issue threats and insult to the judiciary. Everybody is claiming that they are men and will not be tishwad. One cannot therefore claim that all you need is for ouru or Raila to win and people will fall on line. Responsible leaders are those who manage change so that it does not consume all of us.
Kenya is indeed changing, but so is everything everywhere in the world. Some things might even be changing quickly in Kenya. But there is little change where there really needs to be change. For example, I'm sure I can safely count on things like "our man", "eating", crappy services from the government, a general cluelessness from those in power .... for some years to come.
The "youth" are getting excited by "extreme utterances"? They are mostly unemployed idlers looking to kill time, get some free soft drinks and mandazis at these events, get a few shillings to go beat up people on the other side, and so on. The "smarter" ones among them are busy "hustling" or on the market to be "sponsored". Today's youth in Kenya are largely a sad lot. Even the universities no longer produce intelligent, thoughtful protest or commentary on where things are and where they might be going. No, sir; you aren't going to get anything even remotely resembling a hint at revolution from this lot.
On real men not being "tishwad", huge crowds are the best place to be tough. Everyone has "makende mbili", and big ones too. Until someone gives them a hard kick, with a "mta do?". Historically, Kenyans have never been good at responding to any number of "mta do"s. Real suckers so punishment.
SO, I'm pretty confident that very little will change. If Jubilee wins, then Kenyans can expect to get what they have been getting, but "taken to the next level". If NASA wins, Kenyans can expect to get the same sort of crap, but at a slower "start-up" pace. And the "radical youth" will keep getting exactly the same rear-end tarimbo that they are getting right now
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SAD...
Poor leadership has brought all this,,
Kibaki was aged but he was focused
Kenya is changing very quickly and one cannot assume that everything is going to be ok and life will go on as usual. I watched the NASA crowd to day and Jubilee crowds yesterday and its amazing how quickly the youth is getting radicalized. The speakers are cheered on the more extreme their utterances are. The NASA crowd want to hear from Joho and Babu Owino and Oururuto are cheered on when they issue threats and insult to the judiciary. Everybody is claiming that they are men and will not be tishwad. One cannot therefore claim that all you need is for ouru or Raila to win and people will fall on line. Responsible leaders are those who manage change so that it does not consume all of us.
Kenya is indeed changing, but so is everything everywhere in the world. Some things might even be changing quickly in Kenya. But there is little change where there really needs to be change. For example, I'm sure I can safely count on things like "our man", "eating", crappy services from the government, a general cluelessness from those in power .... for some years to come.
The "youth" are getting excited by "extreme utterances"? They are mostly unemployed idlers looking to kill time, get some free soft drinks and mandazis at these events, get a few shillings to go beat up people on the other side, and so on. The "smarter" ones among them are busy "hustling" or on the market to be "sponsored". Today's youth in Kenya are largely a sad lot. Even the universities no longer produce intelligent, thoughtful protest or commentary on where things are and where they might be going. No, sir; you aren't going to get anything even remotely resembling a hint at revolution from this lot.
On real men not being "tishwad", huge crowds are the best place to be tough. Everyone has "makende mbili", and big ones too. Until someone gives them a hard kick, with a "mta do?". Historically, Kenyans have never been good at responding to any number of "mta do"s. Real suckers so punishment.
SO, I'm pretty confident that very little will change. If Jubilee wins, then Kenyans can expect to get what they have been getting, but "taken to the next level". If NASA wins, Kenyans can expect to get the same sort of crap, but at a slower "start-up" pace. And the "radical youth" will keep getting exactly the same rear-end tarimbo that they are getting right now
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SAD...
Yes, sad. And I forgot to add that the Babu Owino that the "radical youth" are supposedly clamouring to hear from is a fine example of what what is today wrong with the country and the youth ("leaders of the next generation"). The success of this little flake will no doubt "inspire" countless youth, but it is a really really bad example for them.
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It's a very bad idea.
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Moon Ki, I do not think Omollo nor I are necessarily predicting a revolution, but we are talking about an escalation in the political discourse which could easily lead to violence, plunge the country into chaos and make it ungovernable such as the 2008 PEV or worse. You cannot sit here and rule all that out cavalierly as if somehow you have travelled into the future and knows for a fact that a Rwanda or Somali will never happen in Kenya.
SAD...
Poor leadership has brought all this,,
Kibaki was aged but he was focused
Kenya is changing very quickly and one cannot assume that everything is going to be ok and life will go on as usual. I watched the NASA crowd to day and Jubilee crowds yesterday and its amazing how quickly the youth is getting radicalized. The speakers are cheered on the more extreme their utterances are. The NASA crowd want to hear from Joho and Babu Owino and Oururuto are cheered on when they issue threats and insult to the judiciary. Everybody is claiming that they are men and will not be tishwad. One cannot therefore claim that all you need is for ouru or Raila to win and people will fall on line. Responsible leaders are those who manage change so that it does not consume all of us.
Kenya is indeed changing, but so is everything everywhere in the world. Some things might even be changing quickly in Kenya. But there is little change where there really needs to be change. For example, I'm sure I can safely count on things like "our man", "eating", crappy services from the government, a general cluelessness from those in power .... for some years to come.
The "youth" are getting excited by "extreme utterances"? They are mostly unemployed idlers looking to kill time, get some free soft drinks and mandazis at these events, get a few shillings to go beat up people on the other side, and so on. The "smarter" ones among them are busy "hustling" or on the market to be "sponsored". Today's youth in Kenya are largely a sad lot. Even the universities no longer produce intelligent, thoughtful protest or commentary on where things are and where they might be going. No, sir; you aren't going to get anything even remotely resembling a hint at revolution from this lot.
On real men not being "tishwad", huge crowds are the best place to be tough. Everyone has "makende mbili", and big ones too. Until someone gives them a hard kick, with a "mta do?". Historically, Kenyans have never been good at responding to any number of "mta do"s. Real suckers so punishment.
SO, I'm pretty confident that very little will change. If Jubilee wins, then Kenyans can expect to get what they have been getting, but "taken to the next level". If NASA wins, Kenyans can expect to get the same sort of crap, but at a slower "start-up" pace. And the "radical youth" will keep getting exactly the same rear-end tarimbo that they are getting right now
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A Rwanda/Somali is the inevitable conclusion of polarized tribal politics. But I don't see how a fake unity called a govt of national unity is the solution. If that is the talk within NASA, I will tell you right now its gonna be badly received. You might as well just admit defeat right now. I for one see no reason why I should support a party seeking nusu mkate. Are we for structural changes or securing positions for NASA principals and others? If its the positions they want they can look for them on their own. No need to take us all along for the ride.
Pope Francis' wishy washy "spirituality" has set me and many on a path of spiritual confusion/crisis/rethinking our association with the Catholic Church because it makes you question whether you were sold an empty bag of hot air in the first place. Look, you must be able to show people that you yourself believe the claims you have sold your followers if you want them to follow your leadership.
Many of us support Raila consistently because we GENUINELY believe certain things: like the fact that he has been treated unfairly by a no-good shadowy elite of one group. We want fairness and we also believe that the enmity from these cartels are indication that Raila himself can be trusted to take us closer to rather than further away from the functional institutionalized integral governance we seek than others, even if he only does so simply by respecting institutions and not interfering. I can see civil society and other focusses of important structural change thrive rather than merely survive under his tenure, if nothing else.
If this nusu mkate business starts, it will show us more than anything that NASA themselves don't believe they won the election or that they are capable of winning it. Please, if this are ideas coming from within tell them they are going to lose far more support than they can gain advantages.
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The idea of nusu mkate would never cross NASWA if they had numbers in parliament. However colorful the message is packaged, beneath it is real fear of a lame duck presidency.
We are reminded that Kibaki had a minority in 2007 but hey conveniently forget that Kalonzo brought in some numbers before the NARA. Right now, NASWA is hopelessly outnumbered and they know it.
I know there are fantasies of an 'avalanche of petitions' that overturns the Jubilee CGLs but I doubt it. Petitions are bloody expensive and this CGL seems to me more like a hollow campaign slogan. Deadline for petitions is tomorrow, and I predict there won't be no 'avalanche' just a slight uptick
Correction
NASWA intends to sponsor 62 petitions not certain of the areas or elections. I've heard the idea is to keep Jubilee winners busy with the petition to distract them from campaigning for the rerun.
Clever negroes :lolz:
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Omollo, Raila disagrees with you: https://www.sde.co.ke/article/2001253503/nusu-mkate-no-way-no-coalition-with-uhuru-says-raila
:D
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Just agree on a reformed IEBC without Chiloba and get on with it. People have to learn to appreciate democracy. A lameduck president is actually rather good. It means for once the president will not be able to lineup his cronies in the executive without compromise. In any case so long as this is what Kenyans choose there is no problem with it.
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If Raila wins, current jubilant MPs from non-bedrock jubilant areas will have more incentive and leeway to work with NASA and even defy the wishes of the jubilant party itself. It's just how it works in Kenya.
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If Raila wins, current jubilant MPs from non-bedrock jubilant areas will have more incentive and leeway to work with NASA and even defy the wishes of the jubilant party itself. It's just how it works in Kenya.
Exactly. So no need of nusu mkate nonsense. We need to be able to tell who messed up or did what in 2022. Also the executive would have the face of Kenya instead of kabila mbili.
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Hahahah. Someobody knows they have no path to victory. NO NUSU MKATE Please. Let us have the fairest, freesest, the most credible election even ran by UN - and let us have ONE WINNER. Surely it's not impossible to hold presidential election - it gonna be easy with six ballots.
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Yes I am glad NASA are making reasonable demands. Chiloba and entire secretariat should hand over to their assistants.There is no time to recruit afresh. Those assistant should step up and hold the election under guidance of current IEBC commissioners - who were selected 7 months ago - in a fair process.
Just agree on a reformed IEBC without Chiloba and get on with it. People have to learn to appreciate democracy. A lameduck president is actually rather good. It means for once the president will not be able to lineup his cronies in the executive without compromise. In any case so long as this is what Kenyans choose there is no problem with it.
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Kweli. All we need is a free, fair and transparent election. Who ever wins will get my support even if it is not my preferred candidate.
In about 2 months somebody will be declared a winner. Then life will go on.
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This is what I was talking about. People whether in NASA or Jubilee who look at the middle ground as capitulation.
Pundit what numbers does Uhuru have? If he had them why all the rigging and use of County commissioners to take over and run IEBC in Central and RV? Anybody who knows he has the numbers would have ensured that the election process and systems were so foolproof, transparents open, credible and verifiable that not even St. Peters would find a fault! It is a well known fact that Jubilee has tried everything to tilt the IEBC to work for it. The court determined that much so you need not dump your percentages on us anymore.
Here it is:
(i) As to whether the 2017 Presidential Election was conducted in accordance with the principles laid down in the Constitution and the law relating to elections, upon considering inter alia Articles 10, 38, 81 and 86 of the Constitution as well as, Sections 39(1C), 44, 44A and 83 of the Elections Act, the decision of the court is that the 1st Respondent failed, neglected or refused to conduct the Presidential Election in a Presidential Election Petition No.1 of 2017 -3- manner consistent with the dictates of the Constitution and inter alia the Elections Act, Chapter 7 of the Laws of Kenya.
How do you propose to have the elections you describe below when the only constitutionally mandated body to conduct such elections has been found wanting by the highest court in the land?
At the bottom of your exuberance lies the obvious belief and desire that Jubilee will rig even better and not be caught or if caught there will be no stomach to bring another case before the courts.
This is the same argument that I heard stupid NASA advisers tell Raila that Uhuru and Ruto will not order killings because of the ICC shadow. I told them they will steal and kill as easily as Uhuru did in 2008. As usual i regretted being so right!
If Uhuru tries to steal the country will move away from PEV to civil war. Trust me. The killings in Kisumu, Siaya, Homabay, Busia, Bungoma, South Nyanza have reduced the power of Raila to tame the youth. Entering people's homes to commit Pharaonic Androcide was the last straw. No parent can tell a young man to stay home and not go out there to look for trouble when his brother did just that and ended up in a bo9dy bag in Lake Victoria or eaten by fish.
Moderate your views. Nobody can doubt my views about the Kikuyu intelligentsia but here I am having weighed the options and finding only bloodshed lasting over 100 years. I hope you know how long the Somalia war has lasted. How many people who were your current age when it broke out in 1988 are still alive in Somalia Mr. Pundit?
Hint: Somalia Life Expectancy: 55.69 years (2015) - and falling
Hahahah. Someobody knows they have no path to victory. NO NUSU MKATE Please. Let us have the fairest, freesest, the most credible election even ran by UN - and let us have ONE WINNER. Surely it's not impossible to hold presidential election - it gonna be easy with six ballots.
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In 2008, the violence had already occurred, there was no mechanism for holding a repeat elections and GNU was a ceasefire solution. Now it is exactly the opposite, there is no violence except for the one committed by the government, there is a mechanism in place to repeat the elections and there is no political will or desire to form a GNU.
This is what I was talking about. People whether in NASA or Jubilee who look at the middle ground as capitulation.
Pundit what numbers does Uhuru have? If he had them why all the rigging and use of County commissioners to take over and run IEBC in Central and RV? Anybody who knows he has the numbers would have ensured that the election process and systems were so foolproof, transparents open, credible and verifiable that not even St. Peters would find a fault! It is a well known fact that Jubilee has tried everything to tilt the IEBC to work for it. The court determined that much so you need not dump your percentages on us anymore.
Here it is:
(i) As to whether the 2017 Presidential Election was conducted in accordance with the principles laid down in the Constitution and the law relating to elections, upon considering inter alia Articles 10, 38, 81 and 86 of the Constitution as well as, Sections 39(1C), 44, 44A and 83 of the Elections Act, the decision of the court is that the 1st Respondent failed, neglected or refused to conduct the Presidential Election in a Presidential Election Petition No.1 of 2017 -3- manner consistent with the dictates of the Constitution and inter alia the Elections Act, Chapter 7 of the Laws of Kenya.
How do you propose to have the elections you describe below when the only constitutionally mandated body to conduct such elections has been found wanting by the highest court in the land?
At the bottom of your exuberance lies the obvious belief and desire that Jubilee will rig even better and not be caught or if caught there will be no stomach to bring another case before the courts.
This is the same argument that I heard stupid NASA advisers tell Raila that Uhuru and Ruto will not order killings because of the ICC shadow. I told them they will steal and kill as easily as Uhuru did in 2008. As usual i regretted being so right!
If Uhuru tries to steal the country will move away from PEV to civil war. Trust me. The killings in Kisumu, Siaya, Homabay, Busia, Bungoma, South Nyanza have reduced the power of Raila to tame the youth. Entering people's homes to commit Pharaonic Androcide was the last straw. No parent can tell a young man to stay home and not go out there to look for trouble when his brother did just that and ended up in a bo9dy bag in Lake Victoria or eaten by fish.
Moderate your views. Nobody can doubt my views about the Kikuyu intelligentsia but here I am having weighed the options and finding only bloodshed lasting over 100 years. I hope you know how long the Somalia war has lasted. How many people who were your current age when it broke out in 1988 are still alive in Somalia Mr. Pundit?
Hint: Somalia Life Expectancy: 55.69 years (2015) - and falling
Hahahah. Someobody knows they have no path to victory. NO NUSU MKATE Please. Let us have the fairest, freesest, the most credible election even ran by UN - and let us have ONE WINNER. Surely it's not impossible to hold presidential election - it gonna be easy with six ballots.
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In 2008, the violence had already occurred, there was no mechanism for holding a repeat elections and GNU was a ceasefire solution. Now it is exactly the opposite, there is no violence except for the one committed by the government, there is a mechanism in place to repeat the elections and there is no political will or desire to form a GNU.
Agreed. 2008 crisis basically saw us "suspend" the constitution, create interim mechanisms, and only subsequently legalize them through the usual mechanisms. As many people often say, law is the first casualty of war, and that's what happened in 2008 for a short while.
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Omollo,
SCOK ordered IEBC to hold repeat election. IEBC have been holding repeat elections for MPs or Governors or Senator. Wetangula did have his election annulled and he won again. You cannot have your cake and eat it. You have to agree with Maraga that IEBC should hold election in 60 days - Maraga did not find evidence enough to disband IEBC; assuming he had such powers.
IEBC will hold election. You guys are already trembling because you know NASA used technical excuses to have the election that everyone reckons was free and fair to be annualed.
Uhuru win will be confirmed. I have no doubt about that. Nobody has presented any evidence that Uhuru rigged the poll. We just had bumbling and fumbling IEBC failing to sign forms & do the basics.
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Omollo,
SCOK ordered IEBC to hold repeat election. IEBC have been holding repeat elections for MPs or Governors or Senator. Wetangula did have his election annulled and he won again. You cannot have your cake and eat it. You have to agree with Maraga that IEBC should hold election in 60 days - Maraga did not find evidence enough to disband IEBC; assuming he had such powers.
IEBC will hold election. You guys are already trembling because you know NASA used technical excuses to have the election that everyone reckons was free and fair to be annualed.
Uhuru win will be confirmed. I have no doubt about that. Nobody has presented any evidence that Uhuru rigged the poll. We just had bumbling and fumbling IEBC failing to sign forms & do the basics.
Even if Uhuru wins again, I find yours and kina Robina's arguments that this was just innocent fumbling borderline naive: Could you give me an innocent explanation you can come up with that proper forms were dumped and replaced by so many officers, over 40,000 polling stations did not communicate to the server all that data we were seeing on 8th usiku, and Chebukati announced the result without all the 34 Bs and thousands of 34 As still out? How were the 34Bs even compiled by the respective R.O.s?
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We have asked for simplest the basic of evidence. In whole of Gusii region which you think was rigged - find us the correct Form 34As. Surely someone must have the copy of the original FORM 34As. I mean people sat and counted the votes - so people say in your local primary - knows the results - and what later turned up in Nairobi is different. Please kindly prove this.
Show us one single form 34A that was original agreed and signed by NASA agents - and was later altered. You have 41k polling stations.
Maraga and the other judges who trusted NASA will looked like ICC judges who trusted Maina Kia - I mean everyone in RV (all DCS, DOS,) including yours truly saw the spontaneous violence erupt but some fools claimed Ruto was planning violence since 2005!. They will look stupid as Uhuru win is confirmed. They would have wasted 40B Kshs.
Even if Uhuru wins again, I find yours and kina Robina's arguments that this was just innocent fumbling borderline naive: Could you give me an innocent explanation you can come up with that proper forms were dumped and replaced by so many officers, over 40,000 polling stations did not communicate to the server all that data we were seeing on 8th usiku, and Chebukati announced the result without all the 34 Bs and thousands of 34 As still out? How were the 34Bs even compiled by the respective R.O.s?
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We have asked for simples the basic of evidence. In whole of Gusii region which you think was rigged - find us the correct Form 34As. Surely someone must have the copy of the original FORM 34As. I mean people sat and counted the votes - so people say in your local primary - knows the results - and what later turned up in Nairobi is different. Please kindly prove this.
Maraga and the other judges who trusted NASA will looked like ICC judges who trusted Maina Kia. They will look stupid as Uhuru win is confirmed. They would have wasted 40B Kshs.
Even if Uhuru wins again, I find yours and kina Robina's arguments that this was just innocent fumbling borderline naive: Could you give me an innocent explanation you can come up with that proper forms were dumped and replaced by so many officers, over 40,000 polling stations did not communicate to the server all that data we were seeing on 8th usiku, and Chebukati announced the result without all the 34 Bs and thousands of 34 As still out? How were the 34Bs even compiled by the respective R.O.s?
So even you can't find a good explanation for any of this. I hope you can appreciate then, why any fair judge would nullify this joke of an election even inspite of Ahmednassir's and Murkomen's night visits to their home. :-X :grin:
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When did the pendulum swing to me. You made rigging allegation - proof it. on 17th October after the repeat - we will find out who is right. As of now - I am happy we have a date to meet again.
So even you can't find a good explanation for any of this. I hope you can appreciate why any fair judge would nullify this joke of an election then, even inspite of Ahmednassir's and Murkomen's night visits to their home. :-X :grin:
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When did the pendulum swing to me. You made rigging allegation - proof it. on 17th October after the repeat - we will find out who is right. As of now - I am happy we have a date to meet again.
So even you can't find a good explanation for any of this. I hope you can appreciate why any fair judge would nullify this joke of an election then, even inspite of Ahmednassir's and Murkomen's night visits to their home. :-X :grin:
I already did that. Rigging is interference/manipulation: I can find no credible reason for all this to happen innocently. That's why I asked if you could think of one.... :)
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If errors were intended to favour Uhuru it would show. The forms without signatures were mostly in Mombasa - Raila stronghold. You know after Maina Kiai rulling I predict this is exactly what was gonna happen. Normally IEBC at HQ would clean things up - make sure RO has signed & dotted all the ts. You ran around saying - IEBC at Const would be as meticilous as Chebukati. But now it bloody chaos. We will see a lot of mess. Those ROS just end up spoiling Chebukati name.
I already did that. Rigging is interference/manipulation: I can find no credible reason for all this to happen innocently. That's why I asked if you could think of one.... :)
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If errors were intended to favour Uhuru it would show. The forms without signatures were mostly in Mombasa - Raila stronghold.
I don't know who did what or why. But, as a matter of simple logic, there are at least two way in which to "favour" Uhuru:
(1) Add bogus votes to Uhuru's count.
(2) Lose legitimate votes that belong to Raila.
And one way to do (2) is to work in Raila's strongholds and replace proper forms with funny, unsigned forms. (Note that I am not stating that that is what happened.)
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RV-you are still stuck in the numbers argument. whether the anomaly occurred in Raila's stronghold or Ouru's stronghold is immaterial. The whole idea was for Jubilee to misstate the numbers by such a huge margin then insist that the court cannot overturn the election until NASA can prove that all those votes were stolen. Jubilee lived and died with that argument. The argument which won the day was that the process gives life to the numbers. IEBC should therefore focus on the process in the re-rerun and let the chips fall where they may. Do not again call the elections until you have all 34A's and make sure that Nyando and Tana river votes are included in the 34C before you read who the winner is even if you think it will not make a difference.
If errors were intended to favour Uhuru it would show. The forms without signatures were mostly in Mombasa - Raila stronghold.
I don't know who did what or why. But, as a matter of simple logic, there are at least two way in which to "favour" Uhuru:
(1) Add bogus votes to Uhuru's count.
(2) Lose legitimate votes that belong to Raila.
And one way to do (2) is to work in Raila's strongholds and replace proper forms with funny, unsigned forms. (Note that I am not stating that that is what happened.)
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RV-you are still stuck in the numbers argument. whether the anomaly occurred in Raila's stronghold or Ouru's stronghold is immaterial. The whole idea was for Jubilee to misstate the numbers by such a huge margin then insist that the court cannot overturn the election until NASA can prove that all those votes were stolen. Jubilee lived and died with that argument. The argument which won the day was that the process gives life to the numbers. IEBC should therefore focus on the process in the re-rerun and let the chips fall where they may. Do not again call the elections until you have all 34A's and make sure that Nyando and Tana river votes are included in the 34C before you read who the winner is even if you think it will not make a difference.
Try and read what I write with a bit more care. The point I was making is actually not about numbers; it is about logic. Simply put, it is this: a thing or an event or whatever can be interpreted in more than one way. Now, please calm down. :D
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RV-you are still stuck in the numbers argument. whether the anomaly occurred in Raila's stronghold or Ouru's stronghold is immaterial. The whole idea was for Jubilee to misstate the numbers by such a huge margin then insist that the court cannot overturn the election until NASA can prove that all those votes were stolen. Jubilee lived and died with that argument. The argument which won the day was that the process gives life to the numbers. IEBC should therefore focus on the process in the re-rerun and let the chips fall where they may. Do not again call the elections until you have all 34A's and make sure that Nyando and Tana river votes are included in the 34C before you read who the winner is even if you think it will not make a difference.
Try and read what I write with a bit more care. The point I was making is actually not about numbers; it is about logic. Simply put, it is this: a thing or an event or whatever can be interpreted in more than one way. Now, please calm down. :D
He was talking to RV Pundit. I think he quoted the wrong post.
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The numbers argument resurrected. I mention elsewhere, the jubilant cannot let it go. Because it overturns their entire world view.
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I was not responding to you and I am very calm. RV= pundit and not Moon ki.
RV-you are still stuck in the numbers argument. whether the anomaly occurred in Raila's stronghold or Ouru's stronghold is immaterial. The whole idea was for Jubilee to misstate the numbers by such a huge margin then insist that the court cannot overturn the election until NASA can prove that all those votes were stolen. Jubilee lived and died with that argument. The argument which won the day was that the process gives life to the numbers. IEBC should therefore focus on the process in the re-rerun and let the chips fall where they may. Do not again call the elections until you have all 34A's and make sure that Nyando and Tana river votes are included in the 34C before you read who the winner is even if you think it will not make a difference.
Try and read what I write with a bit more care. The point I was making is actually not about numbers; it is about logic. Simply put, it is this: a thing or an event or whatever can be interpreted in more than one way. Now, please calm down. :D
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A Rwanda/Somali is the inevitable conclusion of polarized tribal politics. But I don't see how a fake unity called a govt of national unity is the solution. If that is the talk within NASA, I will tell you right now its gonna be badly received. You might as well just admit defeat right now. I for one see no reason why I should support a party seeking nusu mkate. Are we for structural changes or securing positions for NASA principals and others? If its the positions they want they can look for them on their own. No need to take us all along for the ride.
Pope Francis' wishy washy "spirituality" has set me and many on a path of spiritual confusion/crisis/rethinking our association with the Catholic Church because it makes you question whether you were sold an empty bag of hot air in the first place. Look, you must be able to show people that you yourself believe the claims you have sold your followers if you want them to follow your leadership.
Many of us support Raila consistently because we GENUINELY believe certain things: like the fact that he has been treated unfairly by a no-good shadowy elite of one group. We want fairness and we also believe that the enmity from these cartels are indication that Raila himself can be trusted to take us closer to rather than further away from the functional institutionalized integral governance we seek than others, even if he only does so simply by respecting institutions and not interfering. I can see civil society and other focusses of important structural change thrive rather than merely survive under his tenure, if nothing else.
If this nusu mkate business starts, it will show us more than anything that NASA themselves don't believe they won the election or that they are capable of winning it. Please, if this are ideas coming from within tell them they are going to lose far more support than they can gain advantages.
I know this is about siasa. But just curious why you think Pope Francis comes across that way. To me, he behaves like I would imagine Jesus would actually have behaved. The Jesus I knew was not a judgmental kind of guy, put the pharisees in their place, embraced all sorts of taboo characters. Francis comes across as genuine saintly material.
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I was not responding to you and I am very calm. RV= pundit and not Moon ki.
In that case, you should write with a bit more care. The quoted "post" was from MOON Ki (not Moon Ki, by the way). And the response starts with "RV-you", which suggests a combination of "RV" and "you".
Otherwise, I'm happy to hear that you are calm. We need all the calmness we can get.
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If there were real rigging, the full judgement will reveal that. If the judgement is silent, the re-run will without doubt expose it.
Absence of any forms contradicting IEBC's compels me to banish rigging claims to the same heap of bs I discarded antivaccers,chemtrails....I hope I'm wrong
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If errors were intended to favour Uhuru it would show. The forms without signatures were mostly in Mombasa - Raila stronghold.
I don't know who did what or why. But, as a matter of simple logic, there are at least two way in which to "favour" Uhuru:
(1) Add bogus votes to Uhuru's count.
(2) Lose legitimate votes that belong to Raila.
And one way to do (2) is to work in Raila's strongholds and replace proper forms with funny, unsigned forms. (Note that I am not stating that that is what happened.)
Another way for number (2) is to openly rig with something like 110% turnout shown on the forms in Raila's strongholds. As kichwa would say, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Because of that, rigging comes in forms only limited by the imagination. Conversely, there are very few ways of getting it right.
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I know this is about siasa. But just curious why you think Pope Francis comes across that way. To me, he behaves like I would imagine Jesus would actually have behaved. The Jesus I knew was not a judgmental kind of guy, put the pharisees in their place, embraced all sorts of taboo characters. Francis comes across as genuine saintly material.
Hmm...this is a very personal and painful topic for me and I'd rather not discuss it, but....Yes, I understand how/why you would have that view and I respect him but for someone who was as invested in the truthfulness of the teachings of the Catholic Church above all as I was, Pope Francis has been as near a disaster as they come. Look, the pope is a nice chap. But he is also much more a politician than he is a Bishop. And he has around himself a group of cardinals who are what I can call PR geniuses with long-standing ties to the media who have made sure the pope remains a darling, which I don't mind at all. I don't want the pope needlessly attacked simply for being Catholic.
But the pope speaks with one end of his mouth to one audience and swiftly pulls another appearance when he is talking to an audience of Orthodox Catholics. Besides ancient people I only read about in historical accounts (with the attendant psychological distance that provides), pope Francis has honestly behaved in the most political ways as I have witnessed a pope do in my life time. He is not above underhanded tactics like setting up essentially fake discussions groups of Bishops to discuss a church issue and then using minions to deftly and in a very UN-transparent way attempt to manipulate the outcome in a manner I have only associated with politicians (and not those I consider the most honest), and then upon failure, essentially lashing out at those whose 'honest views' were requested but apparently not really desired. It also came out that his rise to the papacy was very dishonest, straight from the mouth of those cardinals who did that dishonesty so that not an insignificant number began to doubt that his papacy was legitimate.
Look, I am the last person who would accuse a pope of anything bad, being as invested as I am in my faith, especially one as jolly as Pope Francis who has essentially managed to stem to an extent, the flow of extremely negative PR about the Catholic Church since the breakout of the abuse scandal. But honestly, I have only managed to remain Catholic by willfully ignoring all Catholic news especially that involves the shenanigans at the Vatican.
Here is my view: Intellectual inconsistency is my lie-detector. However nice a person seems. I don't believe God would require me to sacrifice reason for truth and the Church has always said as much. But this pope unabashedly demands that. With this pope, I have come dangerously close to the fideism I used to despise in order to retain the faith I love. I was gonna become Buddhist since its the only non-Christian religion that would allow me to retain my conviction in the specialness of Jesus (which is why I was Christian at all) without blowing up my brain with intellectual self-contradictions. I couldn't bring myself to do that though. Anyway, this has been a real crisis for me for a while now and you will not catch me involved in those religious debates any more. Not even to defend the Church from what I know to be lies told/believed by many about her, which are abundant. Pope Francis' reign put a crack in my world view and I think I have become those "little ones" who must believe without being "clever": essentially, blindly. It's the best I can do for now, but it also allows me not to think any other views are "clearly" wrong.
Anyway, hiyo tu. Please lets not have a debate about this. It's a very personal experience.
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Pundit,
Omollo already answered this: NASA agents were scared of Matiang'i... despite the presence of local & international press & observers... so they did not do their work :D They discarded their brand new camera phones and hoped the elections would be clean :o Many people are also certain Uhuru rigged the elections... as if Raila could not have done the same. The logic here is that Uhuru is the incumbent and was declared the winner. Short of a Chiloba confession how does anyone know this for sure? The ruling actually expressly absolved Uhuru. That Uhuru's lawyers sided with IEBC and opposed IT audit... as if he should have worked to undermine his own win. Commonsense for Uhuru was to side with the status quo... but to Kadame this apparently proves he rigged.
My surmise is that the polls were simply flawed - not rigged - and that NASA does in fact have images/copies of these same flawed forms in their custody which they cannot release to maintain the rigging propaganda. Orengo had 5K of these forms in court but none here has seen them. If they backed rigging claims they would be all over the net. Stories in the media about judges being offered bribes... all sources are anonymous :D
I could be wrong of course. I must wait for the detailed ruling to see what the judges think.
Show us one single form 34A that was original agreed and signed by NASA agents - and was later altered. You have 41k polling stations.
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I know this is about siasa. But just curious why you think Pope Francis comes across that way. To me, he behaves like I would imagine Jesus would actually have behaved. The Jesus I knew was not a judgmental kind of guy, put the pharisees in their place, embraced all sorts of taboo characters. Francis comes across as genuine saintly material.
Hmm...this is a very personal and painful topic for me and I'd rather not discuss it, but....Yes, I understand how/why you would have that view and I respect him but for someone who was as invested in the truthfulness of the teachings of the Catholic Church above all as I was, Pope Francis has been as near a disaster as they come. Look, the pope is a nice chap. But he is also much more a politician than he is a Bishop. And he has around himself a group of cardinals who are what I can call PR geniuses with long-standing ties to the media who have made sure the pope remains a darling, which I don't mind at all. I don't want the pope needlessly attacked simply for being Catholic.
But the pope speaks with one end of his mouth to one audience and swiftly pulls another appearance when he is talking to an audience of Orthodox Catholics. Besides ancient people I only read about in historical accounts (with the attendant psychological distance that provides), pope Francis has honestly behaved in the most political ways as I have witnessed a pope do in my life time. He is not above underhanded tactics like setting up essentially fake discussions groups of Bishops to discuss a church issue and then using minions to deftly and in a very UN-transparent way attempt to manipulate the outcome in a manner I have only associated with politicians (and not those I consider the most honest), and then upon failure, essentially lashing out at those whose 'honest views' were requested but apparently not really desired. It also came out that his rise to the papacy was very dishonest, straight from the mouth of those cardinals who did that dishonesty so that not an insignificant number began to doubt that his papacy was legitimate.
Look, I am the last person who would accuse a pope of anything bad, being as invested as I am in my faith, especially one as jolly as Pope Francis who has essentially managed to stem to an extent, the flow of extremely negative PR about the Catholic Church since the breakout of the abuse scandal. But honestly, I have only managed to remain Catholic by willfully ignoring all Catholic news especially that involves the shenanigans at the Vatican.
Here is my view: Intellectual inconsistency is my lie-detector. However nice a person seems. I don't believe God would require me to sacrifice reason for truth and the Church has always said as much. But this pope unabashedly demands that. With this pope, I have come dangerously close to the fideism I used to despise in order to retain the faith I love. I was gonna become Buddhist since its the only non-Christian religion that would allow me to retain my conviction in the specialness of Jesus (which is why I was Christian at all) without blowing up my brain with intellectual self-contradictions. I couldn't bring myself to do that though. Anyway, this has been a real crisis for me for a while now and you will not catch me involved in those religious debates any more. Not even to defend the Church from what I know to be lies told/believed by many about her, which are abundant. Pope Francis' reign put a crack in my world view and I think I have become those "little ones" who must believe without being "clever": essentially, blindly. It's the best I can do for now, but it also allows me not to think any other views are "clearly" wrong.
Anyway, hiyo tu. Please lets not have a debate about this. It's a very personal experience.
I guess you see him as some sort of celebrity pope. My intention was not to debate, but just to understand what's up, given what I knew about your faith. Thanks for sharing.
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Pundit,
Omollo already answered this: NASA agents were scared of Matiang'i... despite the presence of local & international press & observers... so they did not do their work :D They discarded their brand new camera phones and hoped the elections would be clean :o Many people are also certain Uhuru rigged the elections... as if Raila could not have done the same. The logic here is that Uhuru is the incumbent and was declared the winner. Short of a Chiloba confession how does anyone know this for sure? The ruling actually expressly absolved Uhuru. That Uhuru's lawyers sided with IEBC and opposed IT audit... as if he should have worked to undermine his own win. Commonsense for Uhuru was to side with the status quo... but to Kadame this apparently proves he rigged.
I am going to ask you to point out the quote where Kadame made that incredibly stupid argument you have created and then attributed to her, Robina, thanks! 8)
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Pundit,
Omollo already answered this: NASA agents were scared of Matiang'i... despite the presence of local & international press & observers... so they did not do their work :D They discarded their brand new camera phones and hoped the elections would be clean :o Many people are also certain Uhuru rigged the elections... as if Raila could not have done the same. The logic here is that Uhuru is the incumbent and was declared the winner. Short of a Chiloba confession how does anyone know this for sure? The ruling actually expressly absolved Uhuru. That Uhuru's lawyers sided with IEBC and opposed IT audit... as if he should have worked to undermine his own win. Commonsense for Uhuru was to side with the status quo... but to Kadame this apparently proves he rigged.
My surmise is that the polls were simply flawed - not rigged - and that NASA does in fact have images/copies of these same flawed forms in their custody which they cannot release to maintain the rigging propaganda. Orengo had 5K of these forms in court but none here has seen them. If they backed rigging claims they would be all over the net. Stories in the media about judges being offered bribes... all sources are anonymous :D
I could be wrong of course. I must wait for the detailed ruling to see what the judges think.
Show us one single form 34A that was original agreed and signed by NASA agents - and was later altered. You have 41k polling stations.
I also had doubts about NASA because of the agents thing. I find it difficult to believe this court arrived at a conclusion of illegalities without evidence. I am sure Njoki/Ojwang jubilant axis must have belabored that point, together with the utterly irrational numbers argument.
For now, I defer to bryan275's views - but in a cruder way - until I see some compelling evidence not to.
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Pundit,
Omollo already answered this: NASA agents were scared of Matiang'i... despite the presence of local & international press & observers... so they did not do their work :D They discarded their brand new camera phones and hoped the elections would be clean :o Many people are also certain Uhuru rigged the elections... as if Raila could not have done the same. The logic here is that Uhuru is the incumbent and was declared the winner. Short of a Chiloba confession how does anyone know this for sure? The ruling actually expressly absolved Uhuru. That Uhuru's lawyers sided with IEBC and opposed IT audit... as if he should have worked to undermine his own win. Commonsense for Uhuru was to side with the status quo... but to Kadame this apparently proves he rigged.
I am going to ask you to point out the quote where Kadame made that incredibly stupid argument you have created and then attributed to her, Robina, thanks! 8)
And about that "Uhuru was absolved" argument, I'll just quote myself from the other thread yesterday:
All well and good, I note that you are skeptical about the good judge's ruling that explicitly said that criminal acts were committed.
Absolving Uhuru of wrong doing is quite telling. Do you think they would have said so if there was clear evidence of rigging in favor of Uhunye?
This is an assumption you and Robina are making: that if the court had found that the illegalities/irregularities favoured Jubilee, it would have indicted Jubilee along with the IEBC. Those are two separate things. If I was judging I would never say that if I caught A doing something that favored B, I would then automatically indict B without evidence of B's own wrongdoing just because he was the beneficiary of the wrong-doing of A. What the court said was that it did not find evidence of Uhuru's wrong doing. And indeed if Uhuru used IEBC, why would the court find otherwise without direct evidence of collusion?
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I also had doubts about NASA because of the agents thing. I find it difficult to believe this court arrived at a conclusion of illegalities without evidence. I am sure Njoki/Ojwang jubilant axis must have belabored that point, together with the utterly irrational numbers argument.
For now, I defer to bryan275's views - but in a cruder way - until I see some compelling evidence not to.
Yes. We should keep in mind that most of our discussions are based on a few pages that don't say a great deal. The other thing I'd keep in mind is what the Court-of-Appeal judges stated in the last major pre-election case that the IEBC lost: we must take into account our history and what the new laws, institutions, etc. are supposed to be about.
If people have always behaved well, then when bad things happen---even if on a large scale---there may be the excuse of "bad luck" or whatever. If, however, people have always behaved badly, then---until they show that they have mended their ways---the default interpretation of bad things on a large scale must be that they are at it again.
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Actually having read your first response, I am as far away from a National Unity Government as Jupiter. I think we say liwe liwalo. Let us met you in the field. Advise Chirchir to find something else to do for his own good.
Uhuru was badly heckled in Narok while Raila called a rally in Mathare two hours later there were nearly a million souls. I think you need to be properly defeated.
Wetangula was robbed and targeted as a way of paving the way for 2017. There was no evidence of IEBC rigging him in. He was accused of doing what Ruto does every day. In the end he won because his support had never declined.
The Kikuyu judge who nullified the election had instructions to lock him out. They ran in to a tough nut. I cannot see nothing to make any comparison between that and the Uhuru nullification. Was the IEBC found culpable in Wetangula vs Musikari Kombo? Was UHuru found personally culpable? No comparable issues whatever!
There are two issues which are separate: The culpability of IEBC and the sanctions. Did Maraga find the IEBC culpable? Here is what he wrote:
As to whether the 2017 Presidential Election was conducted in accordance with the principles laid down in the Constitution and the law relating to elections, upon considering inter alia Articles 10, 38, 81 and 86 of the Constitution as well as, Sections 39(1C), 44, 44A and 83 of the Elections Act, the decision of the court is that the 1st Respondent failed, neglected or refused to conduct the Presidential Election in a Presidential Election Petition No.1 of 2017 -3- manner consistent with the dictates of the Constitution and inter alia the Elections Act, Chapter 7 of the Laws of Kenya.
The court has the power to impose sanctions. However the past practice has been to recommend action based on the findings. In 2013 the court ordered investigations and recommended punishment for procurement irregularities. In the Wetangula case it did the same after refusing to vacate such an order issued by the high court and upheld by the CoA. In both cases action was taken.
You cannot assume that no action or recommendation of action will not be made before we read the entire judgment. Just 2013 it came in the main judgment not the determination.
The court wrote:
the court was satisfied that the 1st Respondent committed irregularities and illegalities
I think you are now reduced to a JP youthwinger and heckler no better than Njamlik and others. I won't be wasting my time responding to you. You have sunk far lower than my dignity allows to engage you. Bure kabisa
Everyone recons free and fair? Name one disinterested such person Pundit. You never followed the hearing. You did not have a case from the word go. You have not read the affidavits (apart from Kasait's - after I asked you read it!)
Omollo,
SCOK ordered IEBC to hold repeat election. IEBC have been holding repeat elections for MPs or Governors or Senator. Wetangula did have his election annulled and he won again. You cannot have your cake and eat it. You have to agree with Maraga that IEBC should hold election in 60 days - Maraga did not find evidence enough to disband IEBC; assuming he had such powers.
IEBC will hold election. You guys are already trembling because you know NASA used technical excuses to have the election that everyone reckons was free and fair to be annualed.
Uhuru win will be confirmed. I have no doubt about that. Nobody has presented any evidence that Uhuru rigged the poll. We just had bumbling and fumbling IEBC failing to sign forms & do the basics.
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What crap is this? You go and read the case, understand it first hand then come and discuss. You should stop peddling the crap you hear from politicians who never read the evidence. It is to shameful to read this garbage you are writing.
The form 34As and 34Bs were COMPREHENSIVELY analyzed by NASA lawyers, experts, handwriting experts, IT and Paper security experts who made their reports on each.
If errors were intended to favour Uhuru it would show. The forms without signatures were mostly in Mombasa - Raila stronghold. You know after Maina Kiai rulling I predict this is exactly what was gonna happen. Normally IEBC at HQ would clean things up - make sure RO has signed & dotted all the ts. You ran around saying - IEBC at Const would be as meticilous as Chebukati. But now it bloody chaos. We will see a lot of mess. Those ROS just end up spoiling Chebukati name.
I already did that. Rigging is interference/manipulation: I can find no credible reason for all this to happen innocently. That's why I asked if you could think of one.... :)
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Stories in the media about judges being offered bribes... all sources are anonymous :D
The story was published by the country's no. 1 mainstream paper, ok'd by its editors. I'm sure there will be a denial from these judges soon if it was false. Otherwise, I have every good sense to believe such bold risk of defamation law suits and backlash from the prezzo would have caused "ABUDAS of caution". Probably why I have not seen Jubilants fighting it. They seem to be careful about outrightly denying something the nation felt confident enough to publish for all and sundry. And they seem to have deduced the reasonanle conclusion that the sources likely include a judge or someone very close to him.
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Stories in the media about judges being offered bribes... all sources are anonymous :D
The story was published by the country's no. 1 mainstream paper, ok'd by its editors. I'm sure there will be a denial from these judges soon if it was false. Otherwise, I have every good sense to believe such bold risk of defamation law suits and backlash from the prezzo would have caused "ABUDAS of caution". Probably why I have not seen Jubilants fighting it. They seem to be careful about outrightly denying something the nation felt confident enough to publish for all and sundry. And they seem to have deduced the reasonanle conclusion that the sources likely include a judge or someone very close to him.
Correction,
It was reported by Nation and Standard.
http://www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Behind-the-scenes-attempts-to-arm-twist-judges/1064-4080728-sc44kw/index.html
https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2001253407/night-of-intrigues-uninvited-guests-unwanted-calls-and-a-short-lived-tie
But in all honesty, this lobbying was by BOTH sides and there's no mention of bribes
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Stories in the media about judges being offered bribes... all sources are anonymous :D
The story was published by the country's no. 1 mainstream paper, ok'd by its editors. I'm sure there will be a denial from these judges soon if it was false. Otherwise, I have every good sense to believe such bold risk of defamation law suits and backlash from the prezzo would have caused "ABUDAS of caution". Probably why I have not seen Jubilants fighting it. They seem to be careful about outrightly denying something the nation felt confident enough to publish for all and sundry. And they seem to have deduced the reasonanle conclusion that the sources likely include a judge or someone very close to him.
Correction,
It was reported by Nation and Standard.
http://www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Behind-the-scenes-attempts-to-arm-twist-judges/1064-4080728-sc44kw/index.html
https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2001253407/night-of-intrigues-uninvited-guests-unwanted-calls-and-a-short-lived-tie
But in all honesty, this lobbying was by BOTH sides and there's no mention of bribes
Yes, no mention of bribes, I missed the word in my mind and thought Robina was talking about the nation story. She was probably talking about the 500 million bribe to Maraga story that was not in a mainstream paper.
The Standard story is interesting in its generalities, careful not to mention any names and speaking of "the parties" and "swing judges" etc where the Nation is very specific about who exactly was involved: Jubilee, Justice Njoki Ndungu, Ahmednassir and Murkomen and the night visit to Justice Lenaola's home. I will let everyone draw their conclusions about what "parties" mean in the Standard version. But I feel sure there is no mention of "NASA" or its lawyers or politicians by name for the risk of defamation. Neither is there for Jubilee. Even the headline is ambiguous. This seems to be a story based on the Nation story and not its own independent sourcing or just a clever telling of the story without drawing blame for specifics.
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Yes, no mention of bribes, I missed the word in my mind and thought Robina was talking about the nation story. She was probably talking about the 500 million bribe to Maraga story that was not in a mainstream paper.
The Standard story is interesting in its generalities, careful not to mention any names and speaking of "the parties" and "dissenting judges" etc where the Nation is very specific about who exactly was involved: Jubilee, Justice Njoki Ndungu, Ahmednassir and Murkomen and the night visit to Justice Lenaola's home. I will let everyone draw their conclusions about what "parties" mean in the Standard version. But I feel sure there is no mention of "NASA" or its lawyers or politicians by name for the risk of defamation. Neither is there for Jubilee. Even the headline is ambiguous. This seems to be a story based on the Nation story and not its own independent sourcing or just a clever telling of the story without drawing blame for specifics.
Conclusions aside,
Standard has details totally absent from Nation like judges being 2:2 with 2 undecided, 3:3 and then 4:2. So I tend to believe the story came from the same source as opposed to one borrowing from the other.
I think both sides attempted to influence,they attempted to reach out to the judges.
In what lawyers in the petition attribute to lobbying by colleagues but denied by those who were present, one of the judges switched sides on conscience grounds to support the invalidation of the election.
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Yes, no mention of bribes, I missed the word in my mind and thought Robina was talking about the nation story. She was probably talking about the 500 million bribe to Maraga story that was not in a mainstream paper.
The Standard story is interesting in its generalities, careful not to mention any names and speaking of "the parties" and "dissenting judges" etc where the Nation is very specific about who exactly was involved: Jubilee, Justice Njoki Ndungu, Ahmednassir and Murkomen and the night visit to Justice Lenaola's home. I will let everyone draw their conclusions about what "parties" mean in the Standard version. But I feel sure there is no mention of "NASA" or its lawyers or politicians by name for the risk of defamation. Neither is there for Jubilee. Even the headline is ambiguous. This seems to be a story based on the Nation story and not its own independent sourcing or just a clever telling of the story without drawing blame for specifics.
Conclusions aside,
Standard has details totally absent from Nation like judges being 2:2 with 2 undecided, 3:3 and then 4:2. So I tend to believe the story came from the same source as opposed to one borrowing from the other.
I think both sides attempted to influence,they attempted to reach out to the judges.
Perhaps, but the 2:2 etc information is very safe information. Saying Jubilee or NASA or worse Ahmednassir, Murkomen and even more gravely in my opinion: Njoki Ndungu was the Jubilee informant on the bench, is something only an incredibly dumb paper would do without a good footing. NASA individuals have not been mentioned by anyone. I think using "parties" is just more of the same: Raila did it too! at worst or an attempt to appear non-partisan. No one is bold enough to say which NASA person kept bugging the judges.
"Lobbying by colleagues" is just as ambiguous or more ambiguos than "parties". Certainly, the nation allegedly did not know about NASA unless its people are brave enough to implicate a senior judge by her name in this sordid thing but too timid to mention NASA people. You can say all that the standard says withour getting into any legal trouble but I cant imagine getting away with the nation story.
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Yes, no mention of bribes, I missed the word in my mind and thought Robina was talking about the nation story. She was probably talking about the 500 million bribe to Maraga story that was not in a mainstream paper.
The Standard story is interesting in its generalities, careful not to mention any names and speaking of "the parties" and "dissenting judges" etc where the Nation is very specific about who exactly was involved: Jubilee, Justice Njoki Ndungu, Ahmednassir and Murkomen and the night visit to Justice Lenaola's home. I will let everyone draw their conclusions about what "parties" mean in the Standard version. But I feel sure there is no mention of "NASA" or its lawyers or politicians by name for the risk of defamation. Neither is there for Jubilee. Even the headline is ambiguous. This seems to be a story based on the Nation story and not its own independent sourcing or just a clever telling of the story without drawing blame for specifics.
Conclusions aside,
Standard has details totally absent from Nation like judges being 2:2 with 2 undecided, 3:3 and then 4:2. So I tend to believe the story came from the same source as opposed to one borrowing from the other.
I think both sides attempted to influence,they attempted to reach out to the judges.
Perhaps, but the 2:2 etc information is very safe information. Saying Jubilee or NASA or worse Ahmednassir, Murkomen and even more gravely in my opinion: Njoki Ndungu was the Jubilee informant on the bench, is something only an incredibly dumb paper would do without a good footing. NASA individuals have not been mentioned by anyone. I think using "parties" is just more of the same: Raila did it too! at worst or an attempt to appear non-partisan. No one is bold enough to say which NASA person kept bugging the judges.
"Lobbying by colleagues" is just as ambiguous or more ambiguos than "parties". Certainly, the nation would have known about NASA too unless its people are brave enough to implicate a senior judge by her name in this sordid thing but too timid to mention NASA people.
Agreed. It's difficult to tell which parts are factual and what are embellishment or what was the cause of embellishments; media reporting or their source. So I think it's fair to treat every detail with the same level of confidence/contempt
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Agreed. It's difficult to tell which parts are factual and what are embellishment or what was the cause of embellishments; media reporting or their source. So I think it's fair to treat every detail with the same level of confidence/contempt
I agree but my point is that the nation story calls for a swift and firm rebuttal or denial from identified entities yet to do so while the standard piece has accused no one and requires no response. Neither NASA nor any of its associates need to rebutt anything in any paper yet.
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I don't get it.
Why is it so hard to state that it was Jubilee that tried to influence the court.
1. The media is pro jubilee. Meaning had this been NASA they would be running headlines demanding arrests and prosecutions on top of seeking the sacking of the judges.
2. No Opprobrium : Where is Duale or Murkomen? Even their local heckler is quiet. What does that tell you?
3. Uhuru would by now have sent his homo friend at EACC to probe the judges and make a discovery of a large amount of cash "in Foreign and local currency".(am told when one of these kind of arrests demanded "her money" back they just ignored her)
Social media has been naming names. None of the named have come out to deny or threaten as is the norm.
vooke do you believe there is anybody in Jubile who would play gentleman and let this pass if it remotely involved NASA or yule jaluo?
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I don't get it.
Why is it so hard to state that it was Jubilee that tried to influence the court.
1. The media is pro jubilee. Meaning had this been NASA they would be running headlines demanding arrests and prosecutions on top of seeking the sacking of the judges.
2. No Opprobrium : Where is Duale or Murkomen? Even their local heckler is quiet. What does that tell you?
3. Uhuru would by now have sent his homo friend at EACC to probe the judges and make a discovery of a large amount of cash "in Foreign and local currency".(am told when one of these kind of arrests demanded "her money" back they just ignored her)
Social media has been naming names. None of the named have come out to deny or threaten as is the norm.
vooke do you believe there is anybody in Jubile who would play gentleman and let this pass if it remotely involved NASA or yule jaluo?
whatever influence peddling was there,JUBILEE's dwarfed NASWA so much that you can say only Jubilee attempted to.
Listened to Nyongo yesterday say that he had attended Late Ouko's wife burial and was waiting for Babu in Kisumu. He tried calling him to no avail. When Babu called back,he gave him a message for the mourners; to maintain peace REGARDLESS of the outcome. This was on Thursday. This tells me NASWA was prepared for anything.
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May be I am getting rusty but how does Babu message say anything beyond what it says? What is anything?
Please find anything in your media which remotely links NASA to influence peddling then we continue this insurgency. ALL the reports point at Jubilee and name the persons. How many Cabinet Secretaries in Uhuru's government would lobby a judge to assist NASA?
whatever influence peddling was there,JUBILEE's dwarfed NASWA so much that you can say only Jubilee attempted to.
Listened to Nyongo yesterday say that he had attended Late Ouko's wife burial and was waiting for Babu in Kisumu. He tried calling him to no avail. When Babu called back,he gave him a message for the mourners; to maintain peace REGARDLESS of the outcome. This was on Thursday. This tells me NASWA was prepared for anything.
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I forgot to mention Duale and Matiangi, the notorious media threatener and secretary, which implicates the President.
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May be I am getting rusty but how does Babu message say anything beyond what it says? What is anything?
Please find anything in your media which remotely links NASA to influence peddling then we continue this insurgency. ALL the reports point at Jubilee and name the persons. How many Cabinet Secretaries in Uhuru's government would lobby a judge to assist NASA?
whatever influence peddling was there,JUBILEE's dwarfed NASWA so much that you can say only Jubilee attempted to.
Listened to Nyongo yesterday say that he had attended Late Ouko's wife burial and was waiting for Babu in Kisumu. He tried calling him to no avail. When Babu called back,he gave him a message for the mourners; to maintain peace REGARDLESS of the outcome. This was on Thursday. This tells me NASWA was prepared for anything.
I think his point is that Raila's message indicates he was not "in" on the deliberations of the judges and was prepared for both outcomes. But I don't believe anything about NASA even in a subdued way going for the judges. Same way I knew they couldn't have killed Msando. No links/mentions and they simply aren't in the position to do so and be allowed to get away with it.
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May be I am getting rusty but how does Babu message say anything beyond what it says? What is anything?
Please find anything in your media which remotely links NASA to influence peddling then we continue this insurgency. ALL the reports point at Jubilee and name the persons. How many Cabinet Secretaries in Uhuru's government would lobby a judge to assist NASA?
whatever influence peddling was there,JUBILEE's dwarfed NASWA so much that you can say only Jubilee attempted to.
Listened to Nyongo yesterday say that he had attended Late Ouko's wife burial and was waiting for Babu in Kisumu. He tried calling him to no avail. When Babu called back,he gave him a message for the mourners; to maintain peace REGARDLESS of the outcome. This was on Thursday. This tells me NASWA was prepared for anything.
Sorry if I was not clear enough.
I think Babu was prepared for the worst as late as Thursday afternoon and he communicated as much to Nyongo. It is Jubilee that believed they had it their way. That's all I'm saying,if Nyongo is believable. The reports of NASWA influencing are nothing compared to Jubilee's.
Jubilee are hypocrites; they claimed NASWA was in bed because they were confident that morning and the judgement had leaked bla bla,yet Ngatia skipped precisely because he knew his goose was cooked.
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Stories in the media about judges being offered bribes... all sources are anonymous :D
The story was published by the country's no. 1 mainstream paper, ok'd by its editors. I'm sure there will be a denial from these judges soon if it was false. Otherwise, I have every good sense to believe such bold risk of defamation law suits and backlash from the prezzo would have caused "ABUDAS of caution". Probably why I have not seen Jubilants fighting it. They seem to be careful about outrightly denying something the nation felt confident enough to publish for all and sundry. And they seem to have deduced the reasonanle conclusion that the sources likely include a judge or someone very close to him.
Correction,
It was reported by Nation and Standard.
http://www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Behind-the-scenes-attempts-to-arm-twist-judges/1064-4080728-sc44kw/index.html
https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2001253407/night-of-intrigues-uninvited-guests-unwanted-calls-and-a-short-lived-tie
But in all honesty, this lobbying was by BOTH sides and there's no mention of bribes
B.. bu.. but but NASA did it too. Care to share any evidence to that claim?
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Stories in the media about judges being offered bribes... all sources are anonymous :D
The story was published by the country's no. 1 mainstream paper, ok'd by its editors. I'm sure there will be a denial from these judges soon if it was false. Otherwise, I have every good sense to believe such bold risk of defamation law suits and backlash from the prezzo would have caused "ABUDAS of caution". Probably why I have not seen Jubilants fighting it. They seem to be careful about outrightly denying something the nation felt confident enough to publish for all and sundry. And they seem to have deduced the reasonanle conclusion that the sources likely include a judge or someone very close to him.
Correction,
It was reported by Nation and Standard.
http://www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Behind-the-scenes-attempts-to-arm-twist-judges/1064-4080728-sc44kw/index.html
https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2001253407/night-of-intrigues-uninvited-guests-unwanted-calls-and-a-short-lived-tie
But in all honesty, this lobbying was by BOTH sides and there's no mention of bribes
B.. bu.. but but NASA did it too. Care to share any evidence to that claim?
Refer to the links
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Stories in the media about judges being offered bribes... all sources are anonymous :D
The story was published by the country's no. 1 mainstream paper, ok'd by its editors. I'm sure there will be a denial from these judges soon if it was false. Otherwise, I have every good sense to believe such bold risk of defamation law suits and backlash from the prezzo would have caused "ABUDAS of caution". Probably why I have not seen Jubilants fighting it. They seem to be careful about outrightly denying something the nation felt confident enough to publish for all and sundry. And they seem to have deduced the reasonanle conclusion that the sources likely include a judge or someone very close to him.
Correction,
It was reported by Nation and Standard.
http://www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Behind-the-scenes-attempts-to-arm-twist-judges/1064-4080728-sc44kw/index.html (http://www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Behind-the-scenes-attempts-to-arm-twist-judges/1064-4080728-sc44kw/index.html)
https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2001253407/night-of-intrigues-uninvited-guests-unwanted-calls-and-a-short-lived-tie (https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2001253407/night-of-intrigues-uninvited-guests-unwanted-calls-and-a-short-lived-tie)
But in all honesty, this lobbying was by BOTH sides and there's no mention of bribes
B.. bu.. but but NASA did it too. Care to share any evidence to that claim?
Refer to the links
This is the only reference I can find of NASA in the links.
Siaya Senator and NASA lead counsel James Orengo happily introduced his team, reading them one by one in line with the tradition of the court.