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Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: RVtitem on July 22, 2017, 06:34:21 PM

Title: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: RVtitem on July 22, 2017, 06:34:21 PM
www.kbc.co.ke/local-news/asians-gazetted-44th-tribe/

Just how much did Indians pay?

Does this not open up door for any non african immigrants to claim to be recognised as a tribe?
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: RVtitem on July 22, 2017, 06:44:28 PM
Chinese to follow soon
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Omollo on July 22, 2017, 06:49:01 PM
Campaign Finance.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants on July 22, 2017, 07:14:28 PM
Is a tribe even a legal concept in Kenya?
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: MOON Ki on July 22, 2017, 07:34:15 PM
Bizarre and comical:

Quote
The move will now allow the population of Asians in the country to participate fully in political and governance affairs of the nation without fear of being discriminated.

Quote
In a special gazette notice of July 21st this year, President Uhuru Kenyatta proclaimed recognition of Kenyans of Indian decent as the 44th tribe and invited them to participate in the political, economic, cultural and social development of the country.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants on July 22, 2017, 07:36:44 PM
Bizarre and comical:

Quote
The move will now allow the population of Asians in the country to participate fully in political and governance affairs of the nation without fear of being discriminated.

Quote
In a special gazette notice of July 21st this year, President Uhuru Kenyatta proclaimed recognition of Kenyans of Indian decent as the 44th tribe and invited them to participate in the political, economic, cultural and social development of the country.


Yep.  It's as if they were legally forbidden from doing these things until after today.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kichwa on July 22, 2017, 07:41:15 PM
I guess now Pundit has to revise the MOAS to adjust for the newly minted tribal voting robots. I cannot wait to see the breakdown.

Bizarre and comical:

Quote
The move will now allow the population of Asians in the country to participate fully in political and governance affairs of the nation without fear of being discriminated.

Quote
In a special gazette notice of July 21st this year, President Uhuru Kenyatta proclaimed recognition of Kenyans of Indian decent as the 44th tribe and invited them to participate in the political, economic, cultural and social development of the country.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Nefertiti on July 22, 2017, 10:16:45 PM
Indian MOAS:

Hindus 70%: Lohanas, Lohars, Rajput (split 50-50 Jubilee/NASA); Patels and Mehtas (mostly businessmen and face competition from Kikuyu - lean NASA). Found in Nairobi West, Parklands, South C, Thika, etc

Muslims 20%: Sunni, Shia (Ismaili, Bohra) - mostly in Mombasa and lean NASA

Sikhs, Jains 5% in Kisumu; opposed to Muslims and lean Jubilee
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kichwa on July 22, 2017, 10:41:52 PM
Wow! Lets wait for Pundit to confirm those numbers first.  I have a  feeling he will give  Jubilee 70% and NASA 30% based on some kind of "objective/scientific/mathematical"  quackery.


Indian MOAS:

Hindus 70%: Lohanas, Lohars, Rajput (split 50-50 Jubilee/NASA); Patels and Mehtas (mostly businessmen and face competition from Kikuyu - lean NASA). Found in Nairobi West, Parklands, South C, Thika, etc

Muslims 20%: Sunni, Shia (Ismaili, Bohra) - mostly in Mombasa and lean NASA

Sikhs, Jains 5% in Kisumu; opposed to Muslims and lean Jubilee
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: patel on July 22, 2017, 10:57:26 PM
Uhuru has completely lost his mind. His economic advisor, tax cheat Vimal Shah must be behind this move. Will the Indians give up their British passport? 
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kichwa on July 22, 2017, 11:27:29 PM
I think you will have to be a Kenyan Citizen of Indian extraction to belong to the Indian tribe of Kenya. I urge Caucasians and other groups in Kenya to take advantage of this generous electoral period like Indians and get their tribal papers.  After the elections its going to be very difficult to get.

Uhuru has completely lost his mind. His economic advisor, tax cheat Vimal Shah must be behind this move. Will the Indians give up their British passport?
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kadame5 on July 23, 2017, 01:11:54 AM
This is wrong on so many levels. ARE they a tribe, or is this a colonialesque move to create a unity that doesn't exist? Did they ask for this? SMH.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: RV Pundit on July 23, 2017, 06:59:58 AM
They are a tribe who speak their own language.I don't see any problem with this move.They were already recognized as Kenyan asians.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kichwa on July 23, 2017, 08:03:21 AM

Ouru cannot do any wrong in your eyes. I am sure if Magufuli had done the same you would suddenly see what's wrong with it.

They are a tribe who speak their own language.I don't see any problem with this move.They were already recognized as Kenyan asians.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kadame5 on July 23, 2017, 09:32:22 AM
They are a tribe who speak their own language.I don't see any problem with this move.They were already recognized as Kenyan asians.
But that's because they are Kenyan Asians. That's like saying White Kenyans or Arab Kenyans or African Americans. But are these groups tribes?

There are very many Indian ethnicities in India where the Kenyan Indians came from. I know of Punjab because of friends and that there are tonnes more. Hindi is widely spoken in India but it's more like Kiswahili in Kenya and Tz. Each ethnicity actually has its own language and customs/traditions, same as we have Kyuk, Luo, Kamba etc.

So my concern here and why I find this cringeworthy is this: I'm imagining someone in the U.S. or Britain or S.A. or wherever you happen to find lots of Kenyans imagining that because we speak Swahili and are from Kenya, that means we are "a tribe"...how silly would that sound to you? Tribes are things that exist, they are not "created" by an act of recognition.

That's why I'm asking if Kenyans of Indian heritage have asked to be recognized as a Kenyan tribe or if this is some silly external imposition on a group that self-identifies very differently than as an "African tribe". There is something very colonial about this to my gut, unless I hear its coming from Indians themselves. Collective identity issues especially of minorities in a country are very delicate issues.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: RV Pundit on July 23, 2017, 11:09:20 AM
Kenya asians have been recognized as a tribe and I am struggling to understand why that wrong when they are more than 200k asians in kenya.kenya Europeans should also be recognized as a tribe in Kenya.Both have been here for more than 100yrs..Luos for 500yrs..Arabs for 1000yrs... Kalenjin for 2500..0giek for longer maybe 5000yrs..all are Kenyans.The recognition will allow to them to start feeling Kenyan like everyone else and get any public goodies like jobs or monies.Whether they are marginalized and deserve affarmative action is where I diasgree.They mostly privelleged and historical favored.But they are 5th generation Kenyan Indians.It will allow them to feel grounded here without some idiot one day deciding they are not indigenous.They are now legally indigenous.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Omollo on July 23, 2017, 12:02:50 PM
This is wrong on so many levels. ARE they a tribe, or is this a colonialesque move to create a unity that doesn't exist? Did they ask for this? SMH.

Am not against it. I am against the method used and the motives behind the decision. There are many issues that needed to to be sorted out or they will create future problems. For example: Hindu-ism is a religion. Are we now basing ethnicity on religion? What is Dini ya Msambwa says they are an ethnic group and seek recognition and a percentage of public jobs? What about Kalasingas, Buddhists etc. BTW I think Kalasingas should have come first.

The law already recognized Hindu as a religion and provided for marriage under the same - to the exclusion of majority African religions which simply came under "African customary law".

Quote from: Pundito
I am struggling to understand why that is wrong when they are more than 200k asians in kenya.
Whimsical and erratic decisions are never right and cause new and aggravate old problems. A Commission should have been set up to take views and address ALL with similar demands. However you may want to know that Uhuru XEROXED NASA Manifesto (and we are not complaining):
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFXGmDqXgAE2NQA.jpg)
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kadame5 on July 23, 2017, 03:25:50 PM
I don't understand how externally imposing a false identity on a group is better than calling them "others". Just call them what they are. How THEY see themselves/identifg. Does this mean that to be a real Kenyan one must be a member of a tribe?

And just slapping a fake identity on a group cannot prevent future racist/xenophobic attacks on them: HOW will it do that exactly? By convincing haters that these people are originally from Kenya? That's crazy.

I assume something like that would only take place in the context of a breakdown of constitutional order because our constitution and laws DO NOT allow discrimination based on ethnicity or tribe, nor does it base full citizenship on such. So a fake tribe would not prevent a future bigot who doesn't care two cents about the law from attacking ANY group, indegenious or otherwise, for biggoted reasons.

Being indegenious is a matter of FACT, it's not a gift from a government.

Moreover, the assumption that imposing an artificial identity on a group that has not asked for it is in any way morally/ethically ok bothers me. Does this not replace these people's own heritage? The govt must recognize the identity that groups have themselves, it should not just purport to give one to them.

If their identity is not that of a tribe but mere religion, even just broad ethnic or historical ties, it's enough to recognize that and ensure that belonging to a tribe does not give any advantages to anyone.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: RV Pundit on July 23, 2017, 03:41:06 PM
You're getting hot under the collar for nothing. 44th tribe is recognised as Kenya Asians. I don't know why you're complaining yet you're not an indian. What has this action taken from you? Has it made you fell less of a kenya?  Let us have many more tribes being recognised. Some countries have 600 tribes recognised. Let us have hindi being taught in school. Kenya Asians and Europeans have been here for such a long time and in such numbers we ought to have recognised and integrated them long time ago. This is long overdue.
I don't understand how externally imposing a false identity on a group is better than calling them "others". Just call them what they are. How THEY see themselves/identifg. Does this mean that to be a real Kenyan one must be a member of a tribe?

And just slapping a fake identity on a group cannot prevent future racist/xenophobic attacks on them: HOW will it do that exactly? By convincing haters that these people are originally from Kenya? That's crazy.

I assume something like that would only take place in the context of a breakdown of constitutional order because our constitution and laws DO NOT allow discrimination based on ethnicity or tribe, nor does it base full citizenship on such. So a fake tribe would not prevent a future bigot who doesn't care two cents about the law from attacking ANY group, indegenious or otherwise, for biggoted reasons.

Being indegenious is a matter of FACT, it's not a gift from a government.

Moreover, the assumption that imposing an artificial identity on a group that has not asked for it is in any way morally/ethically ok bothers me. Does this not replace these people's own heritage? The govt must recognize the identity that groups have themselves, it should not just purport to give one to them.

If their identity is not that of a tribe but mere religion, even just broad ethnic or historical ties, it's enough to recognize that and ensure that belonging to a tribe does not give any advantages to anyone.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kadame5 on July 23, 2017, 03:43:27 PM
What has it given you that you are defending it? I've given my reasons here: ethical. Stop trying to tell me what I should care about.

You're getting hot under the collar for nothing. 44th tribe is recognised as Kenya Asians. I don't know why you're complaining yet you're not an indian. What has this action taken from you? Has it made you fell less of a kenya?  Let us have many more tribes being recognised. Some countries have 600 tribes recognised. Let us have hindi being taught in school.
I don't understand how externally imposing a false identity on a group is better than calling them "others". Just call them what they are. How THEY see themselves/identifg. Does this mean that to be a real Kenyan one must be a member of a tribe?

And just slapping a fake identity on a group cannot prevent future racist/xenophobic attacks on them: HOW will it do that exactly? By convincing haters that these people are originally from Kenya? That's crazy.

I assume something like that would only take place in the context of a breakdown of constitutional order because our constitution and laws DO NOT allow discrimination based on ethnicity or tribe, nor does it base full citizenship on such. So a fake tribe would not prevent a future bigot who doesn't care two cents about the law from attacking ANY group, indegenious or otherwise, for biggoted reasons.

Being indegenious is a matter of FACT, it's not a gift from a government.

Moreover, the assumption that imposing an artificial identity on a group that has not asked for it is in any way morally/ethically ok bothers me. Does this not replace these people's own heritage? The govt must recognize the identity that groups have themselves, it should not just purport to give one to them.

If their identity is not that of a tribe but mere religion, even just broad ethnic or historical ties, it's enough to recognize that and ensure that belonging to a tribe does not give any advantages to anyone.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: RV Pundit on July 23, 2017, 03:45:13 PM
It gives me nothing and takes away nothing. What is unethical about gazettment of kenyan asian as a tribe.  Unless you have your own personal hatred for indians? Obviously somebody cared about this enough to ask it or for the gok to do it on it's own.
What has it given you that you are defending it? I've given my reasons here: ethical. Stop trying to tell me what I should care about.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kichwa on July 23, 2017, 03:52:35 PM
Kadame: I agree with you. This thing was not very well thought through but was done for political expediency.  Some one just came up with the idea, it sounded good and politically advantageous to them and they ran with it.  What about the Indians who do not want to belong to that tribe?  Are we going to force that label on them? Kenyan Indians do not fit neatly into the definition of tribe as we know it.  Its like the USA telling Kenyans living in the USA that we all belong to the Kenyan tribe or a race called Kenyans. Its ridiculous.

tribe
[tr?b]

NOUN
a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader:

I don't understand how externally imposing a false identity on a group is better than calling them "others". Just call them what they are. How THEY see themselves/identifg. Does this mean that to be a real Kenyan one must be a member of a tribe?

And just slapping a fake identity on a group cannot prevent future racist/xenophobic attacks on them: HOW will it do that exactly? By convincing haters that these people are originally from Kenya? That's crazy.

I assume something like that would only take place in the context of a breakdown of constitutional order because our constitution and laws DO NOT allow discrimination based on ethnicity or tribe, nor does it base full citizenship on such. So a fake tribe would not prevent a future bigot who doesn't care two cents about the law from attacking ANY group, indegenious or otherwise, for biggoted reasons.

Being indegenious is a matter of FACT, it's not a gift from a government.

Moreover, the assumption that imposing an artificial identity on a group that has not asked for it is in any way morally/ethically ok bothers me. Does this not replace these people's own heritage? The govt must recognize the identity that groups have themselves, it should not just purport to give one to them.

If their identity is not that of a tribe but mere religion, even just broad ethnic or historical ties, it's enough to recognize that and ensure that belonging to a tribe does not give any advantages to anyone.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kadame5 on July 23, 2017, 03:55:41 PM
It gives me nothing and takes away nothing. What is unethical about gazettment of kenyan asian as a tribe.  Unless you have your own personal hatred for indians? Obviously somebody cared about this enough to ask it or for the gok to do it on it's own.
What has it given you that you are defending it? I've given my reasons here: ethical. Stop trying to tell me what I should care about.
It is insisting that tribe is a crucial factor of being a 'REAL' Kenyan that is based on hatred. Not everyone worships the almighty tribe like you Pundit. You havent responded to my points. My whole issue is that identity comes from within the group not govts, be they the British mkoloni or the current govt. This kind of issue of identity of minority groups is big in my line of work and so yes, I do give a s***. Its not just a Kenyan issue. But as usual you are turning this into a silly emotional exchange between you and me rather than a discussion of the topic. No, I will not assume that Indians asked for this, where or when did they? Its highly inappropriate and I will continue to say so with or without your permission. 8)
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: RV Pundit on July 23, 2017, 03:58:09 PM
Nobody force you to belong to a tribe. You can choose to say Kenyan. Of course tribe is important. On second thought this is actually a watershed moment for many indians if you know what happen in Uganda and in Kenya in 70s. I bet there are laws in our books that are still anti-indians - one of which was immigration & trade act of 1967 - which forbade indians from trading or doing business in some towns. Now all those laws enacted in 60s and 70s are now null and void.

I don't understand how progressive people can hate what seem like expansion of political freedoms and rights of kenyan asian. Tell me if you won't love if the US recongise kenyan diaspora as a tribe.

Kadame: I agree with you. This thing was not very well thought through but was done for political expediency.  Some one just came up with the idea, it sounded good and politically advantageous to them and they ran with it.  What about the Indians who do not want to belong to that tribe?  Are we going to force that label on them? Kenyan Indians do not fit neatly into the definition of tribe as we know it.  Its like the USA telling Kenyans living in the USA that we all belong to the Kenyan tribe or a race called Kenyans. Its ridiculous.

tribe
[tr?b]

NOUN
a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader:

I don't understand how externally imposing a false identity on a group is better than calling them "others". Just call them what they are. How THEY see themselves/identifg. Does this mean that to be a real Kenyan one must be a member of a tribe?

And just slapping a fake identity on a group cannot prevent future racist/xenophobic attacks on them: HOW will it do that exactly? By convincing haters that these people are originally from Kenya? That's crazy.

I assume something like that would only take place in the context of a breakdown of constitutional order because our constitution and laws DO NOT allow discrimination based on ethnicity or tribe, nor does it base full citizenship on such. So a fake tribe would not prevent a future bigot who doesn't care two cents about the law from attacking ANY group, indegenious or otherwise, for biggoted reasons.

Being indegenious is a matter of FACT, it's not a gift from a government.

Moreover, the assumption that imposing an artificial identity on a group that has not asked for it is in any way morally/ethically ok bothers me. Does this not replace these people's own heritage? The govt must recognize the identity that groups have themselves, it should not just purport to give one to them.

If their identity is not that of a tribe but mere religion, even just broad ethnic or historical ties, it's enough to recognize that and ensure that belonging to a tribe does not give any advantages to anyone.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kichwa on July 23, 2017, 03:59:53 PM
Whats wrong with it is because you do not want to define a people without their total consent and unanimous approval.  You want to think this thing very carefully and consider all the legal, social, economic and political implications that may come with it. The Indians may now be entitled to tribal land or some tribal rights that they never had.  Why now and so quickly without a debate of how to treat other communities who may want such designations in the future. You support everything this idiot does and then call yourself objective.

It gives me nothing and takes away nothing. What is unethical about gazettment of kenyan asian as a tribe.  Unless you have your own personal hatred for indians? Obviously somebody cared about this enough to ask it or for the gok to do it on it's own.
What has it given you that you are defending it? I've given my reasons here: ethical. Stop trying to tell me what I should care about.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: RV Pundit on July 23, 2017, 04:02:02 PM
If adding another tribe taking extra space that you wanted to occupy? Kenyan Asians is what Indians (from many tribes) have come to accept and I am sure this proposal comes from somewhere. I don't know why again you're so angry about this. Omollo whose hatred for Indians & Kikuyus is well known has no issue. In fact I agree with him that we need to recognise more and more tribes. It doesn't taking anything from the other 43 tribes.

And please identity can be formed any day anytime - Kalenjin didn't exist until 1940s - Kenyan Asian is what indians I know refer themselves to - just like blacks now accept the term - african-american for their races. Of course there is no race called African- American.

The more the merrier.

It is insisting that tribe is a crucial factor of being a 'REAL' Kenyan that is based on hatred. Not everyone worships the almighty tribe like you Pundit. You havent responded to my points. My whole issue is that identity comes from within the group not govts, be they the British mkoloni or the current govt. This kind of issue of identity of minority groups is big in my line of work and so yes, I do give a s***. Its not just a Kenyan issue. But as usual you are turning this into a silly emotional exchange between you and me rather than a discussion of the topic. No, I will not assume that Indians asked for this, where or when did they? Its highly inappropriate and I will continue to say so with or without your permission. 8)
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kadame5 on July 23, 2017, 04:04:10 PM
Whats wrong with it is because you do not want to define a people without their total consent and unanimous approval.  You want to think this thing very carefully and consider all the legal, social, economic and political implications that may come with it. The Indians may now be entitled to tribal land or some tribal rights that they never had.  Why now and so quickly without a debate of how to treat other communities who may want such designations in the future. You support everything this idiot does and then call yourself objective.

It gives me nothing and takes away nothing. What is unethical about gazettment of kenyan asian as a tribe.  Unless you have your own personal hatred for indians? Obviously somebody cared about this enough to ask it or for the gok to do it on it's own.
What has it given you that you are defending it? I've given my reasons here: ethical. Stop trying to tell me what I should care about.
Exactly, Kichwa. My whole point is that identity comes from the groups themselves, not some external entity called a govt. Also, it reinforces a bad mindset that if you dont have a tribe you are a not a full Kenyan.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: RV Pundit on July 23, 2017, 04:05:25 PM
You can challenge this executive decision otherwise PORK & executive have the mandate to do some of this stuff. They exercise that discretion because he was elected by 50% of kenyan and I believe (unless explicitly made clearly) that GoK has done this for good reasons. Of course the timming could indicate some political reason - but that is what incumbency is all about. Uhuru has to take advantage of incumbecy and Raila has the whole day to accuse gok over everything including drought - that too is the advantage of opposition - coz you can always blame GoK for anything.
Whats wrong with it is because you do not want to define a people without their total consent and unanimous approval.  You want to think this thing very carefully and consider all the legal, social, economic and political implications that may come with it. The Indians may now be entitled to tribal land or some tribal rights that they never had.  Why now and so quickly without a debate of how to treat other communities who may want such designations in the future. You support everything this idiot does and then call yourself objective.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kadame5 on July 23, 2017, 04:07:39 PM
I dont know why you think I am 'angry', if anything I was annoyed by how you started personalising this debate. I am DISAGREEING with this move and stating my reasons for disagreeing. There is a difference between that and being angry, Pundit.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kichwa on July 23, 2017, 04:09:39 PM
Indians were already full citizens of Kenya with all the rights that all Kenyans have.  Indians in Kenya do not fit the definition of a tribe because of their diversity including language and culture.  The only thing some of them have in common is because they come from a land called India.

Nobody force you to belong to a tribe. You can choose to say Kenyan. Of course tribe is important. On second thought this is actually a watershed moment for many indians if you know what happen in Uganda and in Kenya in 70s. I bet there are laws in our books that are still anti-indians - one of which was immigration & trade act of 1967 - which forbade indians from trading or doing business in some towns. Now all those laws enacted in 60s and 70s are now null and void.

I don't understand how progressive people can hate what seem like expansion of political freedoms and rights of kenyan asian. Tell me if you won't love if the US recongise kenyan diaspora as a tribe.

Kadame: I agree with you. This thing was not very well thought through but was done for political expediency.  Some one just came up with the idea, it sounded good and politically advantageous to them and they ran with it.  What about the Indians who do not want to belong to that tribe?  Are we going to force that label on them? Kenyan Indians do not fit neatly into the definition of tribe as we know it.  Its like the USA telling Kenyans living in the USA that we all belong to the Kenyan tribe or a race called Kenyans. Its ridiculous.

tribe
[tr?b]

NOUN
a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader:

I don't understand how externally imposing a false identity on a group is better than calling them "others". Just call them what they are. How THEY see themselves/identifg. Does this mean that to be a real Kenyan one must be a member of a tribe?

And just slapping a fake identity on a group cannot prevent future racist/xenophobic attacks on them: HOW will it do that exactly? By convincing haters that these people are originally from Kenya? That's crazy.

I assume something like that would only take place in the context of a breakdown of constitutional order because our constitution and laws DO NOT allow discrimination based on ethnicity or tribe, nor does it base full citizenship on such. So a fake tribe would not prevent a future bigot who doesn't care two cents about the law from attacking ANY group, indegenious or otherwise, for biggoted reasons.

Being indegenious is a matter of FACT, it's not a gift from a government.

Moreover, the assumption that imposing an artificial identity on a group that has not asked for it is in any way morally/ethically ok bothers me. Does this not replace these people's own heritage? The govt must recognize the identity that groups have themselves, it should not just purport to give one to them.

If their identity is not that of a tribe but mere religion, even just broad ethnic or historical ties, it's enough to recognize that and ensure that belonging to a tribe does not give any advantages to anyone.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: RV Pundit on July 23, 2017, 04:11:21 PM
Identity most of the times come outside. Most people call themselves "people" in their own language :). Most of the tribes in kenya are idenity given to them by others. For example Nandi - has no meaning in Kalenjin or Nandi - and was identity imposed by Arabs slave trades. Nandi is a foreign word and so are many of kenya tribes - I even suspect Gikuyu is foreign word to Gikuyu and was probably maasai name meaning parakuyo. GoK can decide to refer to all indians as Kenyan Asian - the same way blacks in US - are African-American - and unless it's offensive I don't see why again you're getting hot under the collar - unless you have issues with Indians.

I believe strongly that kenyan indians - having stayed here for generation - deserve the recognition and integration to make them more than paper citizen. This is big step that we should laud.

Exactly, Kichwa. My whole point is that identity comes from the groups themselves, not some external entity called a govt. Also, it reinforces a bad mindset that if you dont have a tribe you are a not a full Kenyan.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: RV Pundit on July 23, 2017, 04:16:17 PM
It not enough to be paper citizen. I mean indian who recently immigrated from Indian and Kenyan Asian should be distinguished. These are folks who have been here for 100 plus years. They deserve recognition. They can become a race or a tribe - I don't care - but I am generally progressive and liberal dude who don't see how this is 1) bad 2) negatively affect anybody.

I bet most Kenyan Asians (who've been here for generations) want this as way to distinguish themselves from Indians (In Kenya).

Indians were already full citizens of Kenya with all the rights that all Kenyans have.  Indians in Kenya do not fit the definition of a tribe because of their diversity including language and culture.  The only thing some of them have in common is because they come from a land called India.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kichwa on July 23, 2017, 04:18:49 PM
At this time I am not even thinking of his authority to designate Indians a tribe, I am just thinking of the rational.  The question of authority will come up if there is a litigation. The president does not have plenary powers just because he is elected by a f --ing 51% of the people. If Indians go to court to claim some tribal rights, then the government of the day may at that time argue that Ouru never had the powers to designate them a tribe or that they do not fit the definition of a tribe.  We are not there yet.  Right now we are just trying to figure out the rational other than the political advantage Ouru is seeking.

You can challenge this executive decision otherwise PORK & executive have the mandate to do some of this stuff. They exercise that discretion because he was elected by 50% of kenyan and I believe (unless explicitly made clearly) that GoK has done this for good reasons. Of course the timming could indicate some political reason - but that is what incumbency is all about. Uhuru has to take advantage of incumbecy and Raila has the whole day to accuse gok over everything including drought - that too is the advantage of opposition - coz you can always blame GoK for anything.
Whats wrong with it is because you do not want to define a people without their total consent and unanimous approval.  You want to think this thing very carefully and consider all the legal, social, economic and political implications that may come with it. The Indians may now be entitled to tribal land or some tribal rights that they never had.  Why now and so quickly without a debate of how to treat other communities who may want such designations in the future. You support everything this idiot does and then call yourself objective.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: RV Pundit on July 23, 2017, 04:20:28 PM
I guess you just emigrated to Kenya? And have been living in mars all along? You honestly don't know why Kenyan Asians would want this? Why not do some research for some context
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indians_in_Kenya

I believe Kenyan Asian is a term they want to call themselves - coz they are from Indian, Pakistani, Bangaldesh etc) and it make sense for them to have this brand new identity - they've been here for many generations.

At this time I am not even thinking of his authority to designate Indians a tribe, I am just thinking of the rational.  The question of authority will come up if there is a litigation. The president does not have plenary powers just because he is elected by a f --ing 51% of the people. If Indians go to court to claim some tribal rights, then the government of the day may at that time argue that Ouru never had the powers to designate them a tribe or that they do not fit the definition of a tribe.  We are not there yet.  Right now we are just trying to figure out the rational other than the political advantage Ouru is seeking.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kichwa on July 23, 2017, 04:22:50 PM
You seem to think that having your own tribe make you more legitimate Kenyan than just being  a "mere" citizen.  Any Indian can get membership in any Kenyan tribe they wish to belong to or just remain Kenyan citizens.

It not enough to be paper citizen. I mean indian who recently immigrated from Indian and Kenyan Asian should be distinguished. These are folks who have been here for 100 plus years. They deserve recognition. They can become a race or a tribe - I don't care - but I am generally progressive and liberal dude who don't see how this is 1) bad 2) negatively affect anybody.

I bet most Kenyan Asians (who've been here for generations) want this as way to distinguish themselves from Indians (In Kenya).

Indians were already full citizens of Kenya with all the rights that all Kenyans have.  Indians in Kenya do not fit the definition of a tribe because of their diversity including language and culture.  The only thing some of them have in common is because they come from a land called India.
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Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kichwa on July 23, 2017, 04:24:56 PM
They can call themselves whatever they want.  They do not need ouru for that.

I guess you just emigrated to Kenya? And have been living in mars all along? You honestly don't know why Kenyan Asians would want this? Why not do some research for some context
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indians_in_Kenya

I believe Kenyan Asian is a term they want to call themselves - coz they are from Indian, Pakistani, Bangaldesh etc) and it make sense for them to have this brand new identity.

At this time I am not even thinking of his authority to designate Indians a tribe, I am just thinking of the rational.  The question of authority will come up if there is a litigation. The president does not have plenary powers just because he is elected by a f --ing 51% of the people. If Indians go to court to claim some tribal rights, then the government of the day may at that time argue that Ouru never had the powers to designate them a tribe or that they do not fit the definition of a tribe.  We are not there yet.  Right now we are just trying to figure out the rational other than the political advantage Ouru is seeking.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: RV Pundit on July 23, 2017, 04:30:29 PM
And what exactly is your problem. Still struggling to understand.
They can call themselves whatever they want.  They do not need ouru for that.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kadame5 on July 23, 2017, 04:32:58 PM
Identity most of the times come outside. Most people call themselves "people" in their own language :). Most of the tribes in kenya are idenity given to them by others. For example Nandi - has no meaning in Kalenjin or Nandi - and was identity imposed by Arabs slave trades. Nandi is a foreign word and so are many of kenya tribes - I even suspect Gikuyu is foreign word to Gikuyu and was probably maasai name meaning parakuyo. GoK can decide to refer to all indians as Kenyan Asian - the same way blacks in US - are African-American - and unless it's offensive I don't see why again you're getting hot under the collar - unless you have issues with Indians.

I believe strongly that kenyan indians - having stayed here for generation - deserve the recognition and integration to make them more than paper citizen. This is big step that we should laud.

Exactly, Kichwa. My whole point is that identity comes from the groups themselves, not some external entity called a govt. Also, it reinforces a bad mindset that if you dont have a tribe you are a not a full Kenyan.
Please stop trying to insist on a fake motive for my objections, ati hatred of Indians, when I have stated all of mine here in writing. The difference here is that I do not agree that having an African tribe is crucial to being a Kenyan. How you cinceptualize being a Kenyan is the whole issue. Kenya houses peoples of diverse backgrounds and heritage, some African, others not, and that is worthy of celebration without trying to make one group like the others. Integration does not happen by trying to make a small group like the larger group(s) but by recognizing and appreciating all groups as they are. I have no idea why Uhuru has done this, Im not a heart reader but like you saw with my response to Omollo, I'd feel the same whether its NASA or Jubilee that does this. It's such a colonial move. There are countries still suffering the impacts of these external impositions by colonists and other kinds of govt. I disagree with the whole affair whether its happening in Kenya or the U.S.A.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kichwa on July 23, 2017, 05:00:43 PM
The problem is that Ouru is not a tribal leader to confer tribal rights or create tribes like Moi used to create districts willy nilly.  Ouru is the constitutional president of Kenya and the constitution is tribe neutral. An Indian group who considers themselves an Indian tribe of Kenya can make Ouru the leader of their tribe and Ouru can arrange for some individual Indians to become members of Kikuyu tribe but Ouru should not try to use his presidency to confer tribes or create new tribes.  We are trying to get away from roadside pronouncement presidency.

And what exactly is your problem. Still struggling to understand.
They can call themselves whatever they want.  They do not need ouru for that.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: RV Pundit on July 23, 2017, 05:01:43 PM
Apologies.Now I get you. You prefer Kagame kind of thing where tribe is outlawed and people are recognized just as Kenyans. I of ocurse disagree. I think tribe is reality that we will not ran away from or wish away from. I think it's impossible to grant rights without recognizing them. You can say the same about women rights - which I support 100%. I think we can only recognise the rights of 5th generation indians (before it split to pakistan, india & bangladesh) by accepting them as tribe of their own. They have been here long enough to form an identity. GoK is just recognise that. After which we can say where Kenyan Asians are discriminated or are favoured - and we can work such historical injustices.

I believe strongly that Kenyan of indian & pakistani & such place badly want this and are excited about it.

Please stop trying to insist on a fake motive for my objections, ati hatred of Indians, when I have stated all of mine here in writing. The difference here is that I do not agree that having an African tribe is crucial to being a Kenyan. How you cinceptualize being a Kenyan is the whole issue. Kenya houses peoples of diverse backgrounds and heritage, some African, others not, and that is worthy of celebration without trying to make one group like the others. Integration does not happen by trying to make a small group like the larger group(s) but by recognizing and appreciating all groups as they are. I have no idea why Uhuru has done this, Im not a heart reader but like you saw with my response to Omollo, I'd feel the same whether its NASA or Jubilee that does this. It's such a colonial move. There are countries still suffering the impacts of these external impositions by colonists and other kinds of govt. I disagree with the whole affair whether its happening in Kenya or the U.S.A.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: RV Pundit on July 23, 2017, 05:07:11 PM
Where was your angst when Uhuru made Makonde (a very small tribe in sisal plantation) - formerly mozambique - and Nubian(Sudanese) - I think - the 43 or 44th tribe. All I can see from you and Kadame is the usual hatred against Indians (Kenyan Asians). Tribe is very important. It allows those kenyan asian to forge their identity with official recongition - teach their kids hindi, perform marriages, name any tribal ceremony, get jobs, get national ids (without being asked great grandfather Id) etc.

I laud Uhuru for expanding Kenyan Asian freedoms & rights. We need to keep adding more tribes because some people feel this is important to them and there is nobody who get harmed if today.

I haven't read the exact law that allows Uhuru to recognize tribes...but I bet this is clarified in the gazette notice.

Uhuru in his small way has recognize makonde and open the way for them to be enrolled as kenyans - and get ID documents. He has granted Nubian - Kibera - as their tribal land - and given them titledeed. Now it's time for Indians to be recognise as tribe and for Parklands  :D to be recongize as Kenyan Asian Tribal Land :) as surely it it is. Indians or Kenyan asian can now even teach hindi in their school without some ministry of official saying no. They can elect tribal leaders and make Raila an Indian Elder :)

The problem is that Ouru is not a tribal leader to confer tribal rights or create tribes like Moi used to create districts willy nilly.  Ouru is the constitutional president of Kenya and the constitution is tribe neutral. An Indian group who considers themselves an Indian tribe of Kenya can make Ouru the leader of their tribe and Ouru can arrange for some individual Indians to become members of Kikuyu tribe but Ouru should not try to use his presidency to confer tribes or create new tribes.  We are trying to get away from roadside pronouncement presidency.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kadame5 on July 23, 2017, 05:41:34 PM
An objection was already launched a month ago apparently. Those interested can read it here: http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2017/06/05/asians-dont-seek-to-be-44th-tribe_c1571938

Same issues we've raised here: they are not actually a tribe but are a diverse group and as a whole have not asked for this plus it is tribalist, the whole thing. It seems a group within them asked for this in an attempt to help some indian aspirants in the election. And as Kichwa already pointed out, they are not all interested in this new tribe, so why should they be placed in that category?  Also, really interesting discussions in the comments below the article, there are many informed Kenyans. :)
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants on July 23, 2017, 06:09:18 PM
Kadame,

I think they are being grouped as Desi (how folks from the subcontinent - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka) call themselves.  That said, I still don't get where the Kenyan constitution decides who belongs to what tribe.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: RV Pundit on July 23, 2017, 06:17:30 PM
Free world. Those who choose to identify themselves as Kenyan Asian can now do so. Those who want to identity themselves as Others in tribal box - say in ID card application or whenever one has to fill that space..will do so.
An objection was already launched a month ago apparently. Those interested can read it here: http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2017/06/05/asians-dont-seek-to-be-44th-tribe_c1571938

Same issues we've raised here: they are not actually a tribe but are a diverse group and as a whole have not asked for this plus it is tribalist, the whole thing. It seems a group within them asked for this in an attempt to help some indian aspirants in the election. And as Kichwa already pointed out, they are not all interested in this new tribe, so why should they be placed in that category?  Also, really interesting discussions in the comments below the article, there are many informed Kenyans. :)
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kichwa on July 23, 2017, 06:24:06 PM
No wonder some people refer to you as Baghdad Joe. This conversation should start by looking up the definition of a tribe and not knee jerk emotional reaction to support Ouru.   How can you compare homogeneous traditional African tribes like the Makonde or the Nubians to Indians who are very diverse culturally with glaring/deep/huge language and religious differences.  Its like forcing Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs to belong to one tribe when they come to Kenya just because they are from one country.  Why don't we just have Kenyan Patels, Kenyan Shah's or Kenyan Sikhs instead of lumping together like sheep as if they were nothing until ouru benevolently  gave them a tribal designation. Ouru is full of himself. 

Where was your angst when Uhuru made Makonde (a very small tribe in sisal plantation) - formerly mozambique - and Nubian(Sudanese) - I think - the 43 or 44th tribe. All I can see from you and Kadame is the usual hatred against Indians (Kenyan Asians). Tribe is very important. It allows those kenyan asian to forge their identity with official recongition - teach their kids hindi, perform marriages, name any tribal ceremony, get jobs, get national ids (without being asked great grandfather Id) etc.

I laud Uhuru for expanding Kenyan Asian freedoms & rights. We need to keep adding more tribes because some people feel this is important to them and there is nobody who get harmed if today.

I haven't read the exact law that allows Uhuru to recognize tribes...but I bet this is clarified in the gazette notice.

Uhuru in his small way has recognize makonde and open the way for them to be enrolled as kenyans - and get ID documents. He has granted Nubian - Kibera - as their tribal land - and given them titledeed. Now it's time for Indians to be recognise as tribe and for Parklands  :D to be recongize as Kenyan Asian Tribal Land :) as surely it it is. Indians or Kenyan asian can now even teach hindi in their school without some ministry of official saying no. They can elect tribal leaders and make Raila an Indian Elder :)

The problem is that Ouru is not a tribal leader to confer tribal rights or create tribes like Moi used to create districts willy nilly.  Ouru is the constitutional president of Kenya and the constitution is tribe neutral. An Indian group who considers themselves an Indian tribe of Kenya can make Ouru the leader of their tribe and Ouru can arrange for some individual Indians to become members of Kikuyu tribe but Ouru should not try to use his presidency to confer tribes or create new tribes.  We are trying to get away from roadside pronouncement presidency.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: RV Pundit on July 23, 2017, 06:27:41 PM
Do you know how diverse the so called Makonde (now calling themselves sisal literally:)) are in Mozambique? Kenyan Asians are one people at least in kenya - obviously in India they are diverse - but here the differences have been smoothen. Again what is wrong if some indians or pakistani petitioned gok to recognise them as a tribe and it was granted. You wanted to have a say or a referendum on this. How does it reduce the Luo pie? How does it affect you?
Your spinning is so silly you probably think you are talking to children. How can you compare homogeneous traditional African tribes with Indians who are so diverse culturally with deep/huge language and religious barriers.  Its like forcing Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs to belong to one tribe when they come to Kenya.  This is not only silly but ridiculous.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kichwa on July 23, 2017, 06:43:36 PM
I wish ouru would focus on his job instead of trying to "smoothen" cultural difference between the Kenyan Asian community. These Asian Kenyans know who they are and do not need Ouru to define them.  61% of Kenyans think Kenya is heading towards the wrong direction and it has something to do with corruption ran amok, high unemployment, the alarming expansion of poverty, hunger, high cost of living, blatant tribalism/nepotism benefiting close family/friends of Ouru and Ruto.


Do you know how diverse the so called Makonde (now calling themselves sisal literally:)) are in Mozambique? Kenyan Asians are one people at least in kenya - obviously in India they are diverse - but here the differences have been smoothen. Again what is wrong if some indians or pakistani petitioned gok to recognise them as a tribe and it was granted. You wanted to have a say or a referendum on this. How does it reduce the Luo pie? How does it affect you?
Your spinning is so silly you probably think you are talking to children. How can you compare homogeneous traditional African tribes with Indians who are so diverse culturally with deep/huge language and religious barriers.  Its like forcing Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs to belong to one tribe when they come to Kenya.  This is not only silly but ridiculous.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: vooke on July 23, 2017, 08:15:49 PM
I wish ouru would focus on his job instead of trying to "smoothen" cultural difference between the Kenyan Asian community. These Asian Kenyans know who they are and do not need Ouru to define them.  61% of Kenyans think Kenya is heading towards the wrong direction and it has something to do with corruption ran amok, high unemployment, the alarming expansion of poverty, hunger, high cost of living, blatant tribalism/nepotism benefiting close family/friends of Ouru and Ruto.


Do you know how diverse the so called Makonde (now calling themselves sisal literally:)) are in Mozambique? Kenyan Asians are one people at least in kenya - obviously in India they are diverse - but here the differences have been smoothen. Again what is wrong if some indians or pakistani petitioned gok to recognise them as a tribe and it was granted. You wanted to have a say or a referendum on this. How does it reduce the Luo pie? How does it affect you?
Your spinning is so silly you probably think you are talking to children. How can you compare homogeneous traditional African tribes with Indians who are so diverse culturally with deep/huge language and religious barriers.  Its like forcing Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs to belong to one tribe when they come to Kenya.  This is not only silly but ridiculous.
Relax, it's not like the entire office of the president came to a standstill because he recognized Indians as a tribe
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kichwa on July 23, 2017, 08:34:00 PM

He cannot creates jobs so now he is creating tribes.

I wish ouru would focus on his job instead of trying to "smoothen" cultural difference between the Kenyan Asian community. These Asian Kenyans know who they are and do not need Ouru to define them.  61% of Kenyans think Kenya is heading towards the wrong direction and it has something to do with corruption ran amok, high unemployment, the alarming expansion of poverty, hunger, high cost of living, blatant tribalism/nepotism benefiting close family/friends of Ouru and Ruto.


Do you know how diverse the so called Makonde (now calling themselves sisal literally:)) are in Mozambique? Kenyan Asians are one people at least in kenya - obviously in India they are diverse - but here the differences have been smoothen. Again what is wrong if some indians or pakistani petitioned gok to recognise them as a tribe and it was granted. You wanted to have a say or a referendum on this. How does it reduce the Luo pie? How does it affect you?
Your spinning is so silly you probably think you are talking to children. How can you compare homogeneous traditional African tribes with Indians who are so diverse culturally with deep/huge language and religious barriers.  Its like forcing Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs to belong to one tribe when they come to Kenya.  This is not only silly but ridiculous.
Relax, it's not like the entire office of the president came to a standstill because he recognized Indians as a tribe
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: vooke on July 23, 2017, 08:37:56 PM

He cannot creates jobs so now he is creating tribes.

I wish ouru would focus on his job instead of trying to "smoothen" cultural difference between the Kenyan Asian community. These Asian Kenyans know who they are and do not need Ouru to define them.  61% of Kenyans think Kenya is heading towards the wrong direction and it has something to do with corruption ran amok, high unemployment, the alarming expansion of poverty, hunger, high cost of living, blatant tribalism/nepotism benefiting close family/friends of Ouru and Ruto.


Do you know how diverse the so called Makonde (now calling themselves sisal literally:)) are in Mozambique? Kenyan Asians are one people at least in kenya - obviously in India they are diverse - but here the differences have been smoothen. Again what is wrong if some indians or pakistani petitioned gok to recognise them as a tribe and it was granted. You wanted to have a say or a referendum on this. How does it reduce the Luo pie? How does it affect you?
Your spinning is so silly you probably think you are talking to children. How can you compare homogeneous traditional African tribes with Indians who are so diverse culturally with deep/huge language and religious barriers.  Its like forcing Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs to belong to one tribe when they come to Kenya.  This is not only silly but ridiculous.
Relax, it's not like the entire office of the president came to a standstill because he recognized Indians as a tribe

Funny thing is NASWA are so envious of this move that they are claiming he stole it from them. Trivialize it but he scored highly with them....not with you


Meza wembe
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Nefertiti on July 24, 2017, 11:22:42 PM
This was done for political expediency (Indian numbers are dismal) but is a harmless gesture. Besides that it's historically justifiable from the vitriol and apartheid Indians have faced from Idi Amin, Kenneth Matiba, etc. I find it to be the equivalent of African Americans with the Indian relative economic might being balanced by their extreme minority. Recall Indians principally got here as rail-building slaves and were devoured by fatigue, whips, hunger, lions & hyenas, malaria, etc. Just like negros! Let them be, it doesn't hurt us.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: MOON Ki on July 25, 2017, 12:46:53 AM
This was done for political expediency (Indian numbers are dismal) but is a harmless gesture. Besides that it's historically justifiable from the vitriol and apartheid Indians have faced from Idi Amin, Kenneth Matiba, etc. I find it to be the equivalent of African Americans with the Indian relative economic might being balanced by their extreme minority. Recall Indians principally got here as rail-building slaves and were devoured by fatigue, whips, hunger, lions & hyenas, malaria, etc. Just like negros! Let them be, it doesn't hurt us.

Yes, it is a silly but harmless event.    But I would not compare their situation with that of African-Americans, who (a) were denied all sorts of rights and opportunities, (b) were for long denied pretty much any real opportunity to integrate with the rest (majority) of society, and (c) were not brought into place by the locally dominant population and then subsequently abused for ages.  "Fatigue, whips, hunger, lions & hyenas, malaria" ... the "natives" too were getting those from the same sources at the very same time.

Amin etc. were passing aberrations to the norm.  Indians may have had a rough time of it at the start, but, for the most part, they have always generally done quite well, which explains the "relative economic might" that you refer to.  On the whole, Indians in Kenya today are a very privileged lot and have been for quite some time.

And to the extent that they have not "fully integrated", it has largely been a deliberate choice on their part.   That choice, by the way, goes a long way in explaining the "tensions" that still bedevil their relationships with the "natives".  To my mind, they would be better off addressing the roots of those "tensions", rather that assuming that being declared a "tribe" or writing cheques will make them go away.   

Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Globalcitizen12 on July 25, 2017, 12:44:26 PM
Indians are their own worst enemy. They fail to intergrate in any society they go into and expect to be accepted that way.. their culture is lousy and until it evolves they will remain a lousy people who main goal is just to chase money like zombies and live on fringes of society

i would hate to be an Indian Kid born abroad. it must be very difficult to live  a life where your family deliberately fails to intergrate and expects you to follow suit. I really pity these kids.

Anyway let these 150K so people continue to live their separate but equal life
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants on July 25, 2017, 03:49:08 PM
Indians are their own worst enemy. They fail to intergrate in any society they go into and expect to be accepted that way.. their culture is lousy and until it evolves they will remain a lousy people who main goal is just to chase money like zombies and live on fringes of society

i would hate to be an Indian Kid born abroad. it must be very difficult to live  a life where your family deliberately fails to intergrate and expects you to follow suit. I really pity these kids.

Anyway let these 150K so people continue to live their separate but equal life


They seem to integrate better in the US though.  At least that is the impression I get in New York.  Chicago too.  When they are too many they are less insular and more outgoing I think.

You also have to make a distinction between the Gujarats who are the dominant group in Kenya and the others.  Gujarats have more or less the same reputation among the other Indians that they have in Kenya, as businessmen and traders.  They want your money and nothing else.
Title: Re: Uhuru has made Hindu a Kenya 44th tribe
Post by: Omollo on July 25, 2017, 06:52:48 PM
Is anybody picking upon the evidence that Asians were already classified as Tribe number 39?

My beef is the haphazard and obviously political nature of the decision. When I notice that the Bureau of statistics has all along treated Asians as a *tribe" and enumerated them as such, I begin to wonder if a more stratified method looking at all such Kenyan peoples excluded from this "club" of tribes would have captured this and rather than purport to "add" a new tribe and still end up with 43 tribes, came up with a robust list, seek parliamentary approval and get it done.

The world over, executive decisions can be reversed when the persons behind the executive change. We have seen what Trump is doing to Obama's executive decisions and what Obama himself did to Bush's orders.

In Kenya the "districts" created by Moi and Kibaki suffered the same fate. However those where he took time to include parliament and allow a robust debate and the participation of the involved people ended up staying and are now counties.