Nipate

Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Kichwa on October 21, 2016, 09:35:33 PM

Title: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: Kichwa on October 21, 2016, 09:35:33 PM
Really?
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: RV Pundit on October 22, 2016, 08:04:18 AM
Big deal. Why do they need validation?
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: Kichwa on October 22, 2016, 04:09:34 PM
They do not need validation the same way Mt. Kilimanjaro does not need to be validated by ouru. This is more about ouru and not Jaramogi or Raila. There legacy is very safe my friend.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants on October 22, 2016, 06:11:39 PM
It keeps the masses fixated on "our heroes" or the snubs - while the hyenas continue to eat.  It has worked for 52 years.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: Empedocles on October 22, 2016, 09:00:07 PM
Exactly three years and one month ago, Uhuru lost his own nephew in one of the most atrocious terror attacks on Kenyan soil.

He done forgot about it, just like the rest of us.

And we're seriously expecting him to remember Jaramogi's and RAO's contributions to our country?
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: RV Pundit on October 23, 2016, 08:46:13 AM
There are many kenyan heroes  who were not mentioned. Some like Jaramogi have been recognised severally with streets named after them in many towns including in Kericho where I come from and therefore Uhuru should focus on recognizing new heroes.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: Kichwa on October 23, 2016, 05:13:39 PM
My point is that Jaramogi and Raila are already Heroes whether Ouru mentions them or Not.  The issue here is ouru's pettiness and divisive tribal politics. I am not interested or trying to convince you of anything.

There are many kenyan heroes  who were not mentioned. Some like Jaramogi have been recognised severally with streets named after them in many towns including in Kericho where I come from and therefore Uhuru should focus on recognizing new heroes.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: RV Pundit on October 24, 2016, 10:45:58 AM
The problem is that of trying to force your Luo heroes on us. Raila is not my hero neither is Jaramogi. And I think there are many around kenya who share that view. My folks think Moi is a national hero who peacefully led this country for 24yrs and oversaw development..obviously you don't think so. Moi was not mentioned by Uhuru..I don't see Kalenjin walking around with chip on their shoulder demanding his recognition.
My point is that Jaramogi and Raila are already Heroes whether Ouru mentions them or Not.  The issue here is ouru's pettiness and divisive tribal politics. I am not interested or trying to convince you of anything.
n
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: veritas on October 24, 2016, 02:30:23 PM
Absolute tribalist. It's dictator-like North Korea. Signs of too much power.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: Kichwa on October 24, 2016, 04:10:28 PM
Its never been about you sir.  Your opinion about Luos or Raila or Jaramogi is irrelevant to this topic. You take yourself too seriously.

The problem is that of trying to force your Luo heroes on us. Raila is not my hero neither is Jaramogi. And I think there are many around kenya who share that view. My folks think Moi is a national hero who peacefully led this country for 24yrs and oversaw development..obviously you don't think so. Moi was not mentioned by Uhuru..I don't see Kalenjin walking around with chip on their shoulder demanding his recognition.
My point is that Jaramogi and Raila are already Heroes whether Ouru mentions them or Not.  The issue here is ouru's pettiness and divisive tribal politics. I am not interested or trying to convince you of anything.
n
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: RV Pundit on October 24, 2016, 07:47:57 PM
so what exactly did you hope to achieve with this thread. Uhuru cannot mention all our heroes. Quit trying to force your heroes on the rest of us.
Its never been about you sir.  Your opinion about Luos or Raila or Jaramogi is irrelevant to this topic. You take yourself too seriously.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: Kichwa on October 24, 2016, 08:29:07 PM
It was about ouru refusing not to acknowledge the obvious. That Jaramogi and Raila are Mashujaa is not a debatable issue.  Find something else to debate.


so what exactly did you hope to achieve with this thread. Uhuru cannot mention all our heroes. Quit trying to force your heroes on the rest of us.
Its never been about you sir.  Your opinion about Luos or Raila or Jaramogi is irrelevant to this topic. You take yourself too seriously.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: GeeMail on October 24, 2016, 08:30:24 PM
 Quit trying to force your heroes on the rest of us.

It appears you don't see that's exactly what your two heroes have done.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: MOON Ki on October 24, 2016, 08:33:49 PM
Quit trying to force your heroes on the rest of us.

It appears you're don't see that's exactly what your two heroes have done.

Moi led the country peacefully for 24 years.    :D
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: RV Pundit on October 24, 2016, 08:34:17 PM
Until parliament codifies some rules for defining national hero; I think all "our" heroes are debatable and personal. Luos have to stop having this chip on their shoulder and realize Uhuru omit thousand more national heroes..defining on your definition.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: RV Pundit on October 24, 2016, 08:36:11 PM
Yeah contemporary leaders of Moi failed on that count. Kenya was an island of peace for that reason. If Moi had slacken one bit - we would have gone Somalia or ethiopia or sudan or uganda way. There are very few countries in Africa that survived without some coup or military take over. This is now becoming less and less likely...as governance improve everywhere.

Moi is a hero for doing all he could for 24yrs to ensure we had some semblance of democratic gov. Raila to Kichwa is a hero for second -liberation from moi dictatorial rule - although we know he was responsible for failed 82 coup that led to many deaths & changed Moi presidency. Pick your hero.

Moi led the country peacefully for 24 years.    :D
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: GeeMail on October 24, 2016, 08:37:52 PM
It's quite contradictory to recognize first liberation heroes in the same breath with beberu, just like praising second liberation heroes and commending Moi for 24 years of peace, love and unity.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: MOON Ki on October 24, 2016, 08:38:31 PM
Yeah contemporary leaders of Moi failed on that count. Kenya was an island of peace for that reason. If Moi had slacken one bit - we would have gone Somalia or ethiopia or sudan or uganda way. There are very few countries in Africa that survived without some coup or military take over. This is now becoming less and less likely...as governance improve everywhere.

Moi is a hero for doing all he could for 24yrs to ensure we had some semblance of democratic gov. Raila to Kichwa is a hero for second -liberation from moi dictatorial rule - although we know he was responsible for failed 82 coup that led to many deaths & changed Moi presidency. Pick your hero.

 :D

Peace, love, and unity.

 :D

Google: "Kenya, second liberation".
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: RV Pundit on October 24, 2016, 08:39:18 PM
Kenyatta recognise the real first liberation hero like Koitalel samoei who resisted colonial rule for nearly 10yrs and paid the ultimate price. Not the phoneys.Koitalel brother was improsed for total length of 27yrs...and those people were held in Lamu island, Nyeri and name all sort of islands....before being confined to house arrest for the rest of their lifes. aren't they not second liberation heroes? Or you want us to recognise raila who was held (rightly) for staging a coup(treason).
It's quite contradictory to recognize first liberation heroes ib the same breath with beberu, just like praising second liberation heroes and commending Moi for 24 years of pewce, love and unity.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: GeeMail on October 24, 2016, 08:41:39 PM
It is quite consistent. Some heroes attempted to fight corruption with Waiguru as a state witness.

http://m.news24.co.ke/Kenya/MyNews24/state-house-interferred-in-waigurus-corruption-case-20151118
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: RV Pundit on October 24, 2016, 08:42:57 PM
Precisely. The whole idea is Luo entitlement; their long desire to control the national narrative; and to make themselves victims of some sort whom kenyans owe some debt...while on reality they've done nothing that much praiseworthy - never fought - never died - in such large numbers like say Kikuyus or the Nandis. The Nandis were murdered in great numbers, their cattle confisticated, their house set on fire and their land taken away...way back before the first hero. Nandi honoured Koitalel in Nandi Hills through the museum and university. Kikuyu MauMau and its people suffered even worse atrocities. What have Luo really survived...few guys shot on the street.
:D

Peace, love, and unity.

 :D
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: RV Pundit on October 24, 2016, 08:45:14 PM
Your hero is not my hero. It the reason why your hero is not POrk and why Uhuruto indicted by Icc are pork. People in rv see WSr as hero. Kikuyu see uhuru as a hero. Western world tried to say they were indicted for serious crimes...but people said they were heros...the same way Arafat is hero for palestinian...and terrorist in Isreal.. Who get to decide. Keep your heros..and we keep our heros. We can honour them at county level. If it goes national...then we need some objective process..where people can raise objections...and some commission can decide who a hero is or not. Obviously I doubt Raila is going to be hero in central kenya.
It is quite consistent. Some heroes attempted to fight corruption with Waiguru as a state witness.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: MOON Ki on October 24, 2016, 08:47:19 PM
Precisely. The whole idea is Luo entitlement; they long desire to control the national narrative; and to make themselves victims of some sort whom kenyans owe some debt...while on reality they've done nothing that much praiseworthy - never fought - never died - in such large numbers like say Kikuyus or the Nandis.
:D

Peace, love, and unity.

 :D

History. Basic reading and awareness of.   Plus objective understanding.

Google: "Kenya, second liberation". Peace, love, and unity.

Kula nyama.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: GeeMail on October 24, 2016, 08:49:52 PM
(http://www.the-star.co.ke/sites/default/files/styles/new_full_content/public/articles/2015/07/07/1164136.jpg?itok=h4We9AUo)
Saba Saba demonstration on July 7, 1990. From Left: Gitobu Imanyara, James Orengo, Raila Odinga and Charles Rubia.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: RV Pundit on October 24, 2016, 08:53:13 PM
How many Luos died in second liberation. Can you compare to what Brits did to Nandis and talais. Where they not only killed thousands ( I think Nandis were 40,000 in 1900s and brits probably killed 1/4), burnt fields and houses in nearly the whole of nandi ,fined them heavily & reduced them to poverty and eventually moved en-masses all people to reserves - and took their land. What is that to you. The zero liberation?. Or the Talais were were imprisoned in some desolate island in lake victoria. Before Raila was a hero..Koitalel brother koilegen had been in prison for 27 yrs under the colonial rule. Aren't they not heros.

Let not talk about Mau Mau.

Luos have done very very little and sufferred very little. There is no coincidence that PORK of kenya has been with Kikuyu and Kalenjin. They suffered the most - in the most fundamental ways.

Before you google second liberation nonsense...read about Nandi resistance. That is more serious history. Second liberation from MOi who is still out there as free and respected man :) :)

History. Objective understanding.

GooglKenya, second liberation".
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: MOON Ki on October 24, 2016, 08:54:46 PM
How many Luos died in second liberation.

What was the Second Liberation?
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: RV Pundit on October 24, 2016, 08:55:58 PM
A blip in the radar of kenya history -which Uhuru and future kenyan leaders will ignore.Definitely ruto will not even bother to mention it. Simple fight for multi-party democracy and more freedoms. Nothing as fundamental say as Mau Mau land rights war or Nandi resistance to British rule.

Can we already have third liberation...IEBC teargas demo?

What was the Second Liberation?
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: MOON Ki on October 24, 2016, 08:58:36 PM
A blip in the radar of kenya history -which Uhuru and future kenyan leaders will ignore.Definitely ruto will not even bother to mention it. Simple fight for multi-party democracy and more freedoms. Nothing as fundamental say as Mau Mau land right or Nandi resistance to British rule.
What was the Second Liberation?

Just answer the question.   Then we can go back to why Jogoo  must and will  rule for 100 years.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: RV Pundit on October 24, 2016, 09:00:14 PM
re-read my answer - if you cannot comprehend - then clearly I am not your hero for the night. I said it was a small fight for more political and personal freedoms. Small in the context of other fights. If yryou re-read history - you'll understand that 50yrs from now - people will still talk about the big fights - not the second liberation :) - mau mau and nandi resistance for example were no small fights.
Just answer the question.   Then we can go back to how Jogoo must rule for 100 years.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: MOON Ki on October 24, 2016, 09:04:37 PM
re-read my answer - if you cannot comprehend - then clearly I am not your hero for the night. I said it was a small fight for more political and personal freedoms. Small in the context of other fights. If yryou re-read history - you'll understand that 50yrs from now - people will still talk about the big fights - not the second liberation :) - mau mau and nandi resistance for example were no small fights.
Just answer the question.   Then we can go back to how Jogoo must rule for 100 years.

OK, my hero. Let's kula nyama for 100 years.   Love, peace, and unity.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: Kichwa on October 24, 2016, 09:06:36 PM
You can jump up and down the coffee table like a monkey all day long, but the fact that Raila and Jaramogi are "Mashujaa"  is already sealed. Stop wasting my time and your time with silly childish tribal arguments.

Yeah contemporary leaders of Moi failed on that count. Kenya was an island of peace for that reason. If Moi had slacken one bit - we would have gone Somalia or ethiopia or sudan or uganda way. There are very few countries in Africa that survived without some coup or military take over. This is now becoming less and less likely...as governance improve everywhere.

Moi is a hero for doing all he could for 24yrs to ensure we had some semblance of democratic gov. Raila to Kichwa is a hero for second -liberation from moi dictatorial rule - although we know he was responsible for failed 82 coup that led to many deaths & changed Moi presidency. Pick your hero.

Moi led the country peacefully for 24 years.    :D
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: RV Pundit on October 24, 2016, 09:07:28 PM
We will hopefully do that as we celebrate real heros like Kipchomeber Arap Koilegen who was a political detainee in 1914! When you hero Jaramogi was a not yet born...leave alone his brother Koitalel Samoei who gave the Brits all he got for 10 yrs...and stand tall amongst all kenyan hero...and I am glad uhuru mentioned him.
http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2000052844/how-political-detainee-paid-the-ultimate-price/?pageNo=2
OK, my hero. Let's kula nyama for 100 years.   Love, peace, and unity.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: RV Pundit on October 24, 2016, 09:08:14 PM
I see you're losing it...raila and jaramogi are not and never have been my heros. I do realize they are Luos heros. Kenyan didn't trust them enough to make them Pork.
You can jump up and down the coffee table like a monkey all day long, but the fact that Raila and Jaramogi are "Mashujaa"  is already sealed. Stop wasting my time and your time with silly childish tribal arguments.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: MOON Ki on October 24, 2016, 09:22:00 PM
I was doing some cleaning in my backyard this weekend.   There's this piece of wood that's been lying there for ages, and I finally decided to pick it up.     On the top it had a seemingly decent-looking but somewhat rough veneer; so I thought it might still have some use.   But when I picked it up, I found all sorts of nasty, slimy things on the underside.

This is totally irrelevant here, but I thought "what I did on the weekend" would be a nice way to change the discussion on this thread.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: RV Pundit on October 24, 2016, 09:27:16 PM
Sound like a smart way to insult me. You' cannot force some of us to view your Luo hero as our heros. Just like I cannot force you to see my heros as yours. The discuscion is okay - It doesn't need changing. What need changing is your worldview. Not everybody thinks like you.
I was doing some cleaning in my backyard this weekend.   There's this piece of wood that's been lying there for ages, and I finally decided to pick it up.     On the top it had a seemingly decent-looking but somewhat rough veneer; so I thought it might still have some use.   But when I picked it up, I found all sorts of nasty, slimy things on the underside.

This is totally irrelevant here, but I thought "what I did on the weekend" would be a nice way to change the discussion on this thread.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: MOON Ki on October 24, 2016, 09:43:59 PM
Sound like a smart way to insult me. You' cannot force some of us to view your Luo hero as our heros. Just like I cannot force you to see my heros as yours. The discuscion is okay - It doesn't need changing. What need changing is your worldview. Not everybody thinks like you.

I actually give you top marks for "effort"; and I'm sure all will agree that you have certainly tried very hard. True, my final grade for you is an F, but that's only because your efforts happen to be in the wrong class---Nipate.org instead of Nipate.com.   
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: RV Pundit on October 24, 2016, 09:50:31 PM
What make you think i give a flying rat ass how highly your rank me. Keep your scores to yourself. As long as you don't insult me - I am all okay. The last I checked you found me here after lingering at nipate.com.

Keep the debate here about HEROS. The rest of your nonsense you don't need to bring here. You can create a thread or forum to rank me.

I actually give you top marks for "effort"; and I'm sure all will agree that you have certainly tried very hard. True, my final grade for you is an F, but that's only because your efforts happen to be in the wrong class---Nipate.org instead of Nipate.com.   
[/quote
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: MOON Ki on October 24, 2016, 09:57:26 PM
What make you think i give a flying rat about how highly your rank me. Keep your scores to yourself. As long as you don't insult me - I am all okay. The last I checked you found me here after lingering at nipate.com.

Keep the debate here about HEROS. The rest of your nonsense you don't need to bring here. You can create a thread or forum to rank me.

No need to get so agitated.   I'm actually trying to tell you something you might find "positive" and "helpful"---that in the right sort of forum you would be a great success with what you are working on ... a genuine hero!  I just don't think you'll have much luck here.   
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: RV Pundit on October 24, 2016, 10:02:56 PM
More nonsense. I am not here to find luck or popularity. I am here to freely express and share my thoughts. I am NOT here to make friends. What a prick. I have been in many forums - from rcbowen for yrs to toilet.com to nipate.org - and i don't change - one bit --for nearly 14yrs now. This is about some national heroes who are supposed to be mentioned by everyone and uhuru...not me.
No need to get so agitated.   I'm actually trying to tell you something you might find "positive" and "helpful"---that in the right sort of forum you would be a great success with what you are working on ... a genuine hero!  I just don't think you'll have much luck here.   
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: MOON Ki on October 24, 2016, 10:09:32 PM
More nonsense. I am not here to find luck or popularity. I am here to freely express and share my thoughts. I am NOT here to make friends. What a prick. I have been in many forums - from rcbowen for yrs to toilet.com to nipate.org - and i don't change - one bit  --for nearly 14yrs now.

That's not very nice language.  Here's a book you should read:

https://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671027034/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477336044&sr=8-1&keywords=how+to+win+friends

And the point remains: what you have been working on will not fly here. You obviously thought it would, but hopefully you have now seen the light ... not too many fish jumping on that endlessly and lazily recycled bait of green, putrid slime.   "Thinking fish outwit blockhead fisherman !!!", screams the headline.   

Good effort---in 14 years of lower classes---but grade here is F; pupil should repeat last lower class: http://nipate.com/
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants on October 25, 2016, 12:00:53 AM
It is quite consistent. Some heroes attempted to fight corruption with Waiguru as a state witness.

http://m.news24.co.ke/Kenya/MyNews24/state-house-interferred-in-waigurus-corruption-case-20151118 (http://m.news24.co.ke/Kenya/MyNews24/state-house-interferred-in-waigurus-corruption-case-20151118)


Kamwana is innocent, so I am informed.  He declared it at the same meeting where he laughed at the Auditor General for doing his job - after kamwana has declared he has exhausted all avenues who does this Ouko fellow think he is?
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: MOON Ki on October 25, 2016, 12:50:56 AM
It is quite consistent. Some heroes attempted to fight corruption with Waiguru as a state witness.

http://m.news24.co.ke/Kenya/MyNews24/state-house-interferred-in-waigurus-corruption-case-20151118 (http://m.news24.co.ke/Kenya/MyNews24/state-house-interferred-in-waigurus-corruption-case-20151118)


Kamwana is innocent, so I am informed.  He declared it at the same meeting where he laughed at the Auditor General for doing his job - after kamwana has declared he has exhausted all avenues who does this Ouko fellow think he is?

Kamwana has indeed declared his innocence :D.   Direct from His Excellency to The People:

Quote
President Uhuru Kenyatta yesterday clarified that Devolution Cabinet Secretary Anne Waiguru is neither a wife nor a girlfriend of his.
http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2015/11/17/waiguru-is-not-my-girlfriend-uhuru-declares_c1244055

Asali na sukari.

An old English phrase that is rarely used these days: "of soft and yielding flesh".   I don't know why that came to mind ...
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: Kichwa on October 25, 2016, 03:58:15 PM
By DUNCAN OMANGA
More by this Author


The decision by President Uhuru Kenyatta to publicly name a number of Kenya’s heroes during last week’s Mashujaa Day in Machakos drew understandable furore after he omitted the names of Jaramogi Oginga Odinga, his son Raila Odinga, and other notable stalwarts such as Tom Mboya and Bildad Kaggia.


Whether this was deliberate or not is hard to tell, but what the incident reveals is Kenya’s troubled articulation and imagination of its nationalism.


Indeed, displacing Mashujaa Day with the previously celebrated Kenyatta Day and the shelving of Moi Day was an attempt at resolving our conflicted nationalism.


For close to five decades, our idea of true nationalism was not only defined narrowly as comprising only politicians but was also a discursive strategy in excluding and including others.


As historian Atieno Odhiambo explains, at the heart of the debates of what constituted a nationalist, or which group comprised the nationalists, were poorly concealed claims at controlling the State.


In other words, those deemed to be the true heroes not only had the right to rule but also the divine right to the most succulent portions of the proverbial matunda ya uhuru.


Many have assumed that the Mau Mau have a head start as Kenya’s true heroes.


But there is little historical evidence that the leadership of the Mau Mau had the capacity to imagine the Kenyan State as it is presently constituted and thereby fight for its liberation.


Kenya was a colonial invention, not Mau Mau’s. It is more accurate to locate the Mau Mau campaign, which was crushed several years before Kenya attained independence, as a peasant revolt rather than a national campaign.


As the historian David Anderson documents in his landmark book, Histories of the Hanged, much of the aggression of the Mau Mau was directed at the local population deemed “loyalist” than its imagined enemies, the British occupiers.


The troubling aspect of the Mau Mau narrative is that it is occasionally used as a front to excuse and legitimise some nefarious form of ethnic claims to State largesse.


DUBIOUS CREDENTIALS
Since those who bore arms and braved the forests could not legitimately represent Kenyan nationalism, the founding fathers positioned themselves at the apex of Kenyan nationalists.


Those who participated in the Lancaster conference cast themselves as the “real” nationalists, with the Kapenguria Six occupying an elite status as a kind of “first among equals” in this group.


They had the advantage of being educated. With negotiations on independence hinged more on the readiness of the African elite to assume control than on specific violent agitation, Jomo Kenyatta and his educated colleagues had a clear head start.


Unfortunately, most of our founding fathers saw themselves as custodians of their tribal interests first and leaders of the nation state second.


Worryingly, these newly-proclaimed nationalists selected not to disrupt the colonial economy but instead benefit from it, especially through massive land acquisitions.


It is at this point that the likes of Jaramogi Oginga Odinga and Bildad Kaggia broke ranks with the “nationalists”.


The publication of Not Yet Uhuru by the former vice-president not only marked the birth of Kenya’s left-wing, socialist politics, but also formed the platform from which a group of Kenyans began to agitate for a more equitable, distributive form of politics.


As historian Daniel Branch explains, while Jomo Kenyatta and, by extension, the politically-inclined Right that still rules Kenya to this day preferred politics of identity where emphasis was on representation their counterparts, the Left, led by Jaramogi Oginga, Bildad Kaggia, and later Raila Odinga, consistently agitated for distributive politics.


Although political power continues to elude them, the passage of the new Constitution in 2010, whose defining feature is devolution, was both a moral and political victory for Kenya’s ideological Left.


Thus, while it seemed odd that President Kenyatta failed to acknowledge their contribution, it draws from a fundamental historical argument.


A cursory look at our history school books at how we name our streets and the statues we erect reveals that we have many times honoured people of dubious nationalistic credentials.


Dr Omanga is head of the Publishing and Media Studies Department at Moi University. mainyeomanga@gmail.com.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: RV Pundit on October 25, 2016, 04:13:09 PM
Mombasa senator think uhuru ommitted their heroine Mekatilili
http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2016/10/24/mbura-hits-at-uhuru-over-heroine-mekatilili-skip-in-mashujaa-speech_c1443347

The question of who is national hero should be left to PORK until parliament enact some law to determine who mashujaa is. Right now Uhuru has every right to recognise any mashujaa he think deserve it.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: Kichwa on October 25, 2016, 04:33:50 PM
Like I told you before, you are wasting your time.  There are no subjective or objective national tests or standards or codification that will exclude Jaramogi and Raila as Mashujaa. They are in and you and Ouru are wasting our time and your time. I gave you the example of Mt. Kilimanjaro to make my point.  There is no definition of a Mountain that will exclude Mt. Kilimanjaro. Give it up.

Mombasa senator think uhuru ommitted their heroine Mekatilili
http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2016/10/24/mbura-hits-at-uhuru-over-heroine-mekatilili-skip-in-mashujaa-speech_c1443347

The question of who is national hero should be left to PORK until parliament enact some law to determine who mashujaa is. Right now Uhuru has every right to recognise any mashujaa he think deserve it.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: RV Pundit on October 25, 2016, 04:40:19 PM
It no big deal to me and majority of kenyan including Uhuru who forget your dear leaders. They don't add ugali to anybody sufuria. You cannot force heros on anybody. I don't have to revere or respect your heros..and you don't have to mine.
Like I told you before, you are wasting your time.  There are no subjective or objective national tests or standards or codification that will exclude Jaramogi and Raila as Mashujaa. They are in and you and Ouru are wasting our time and your time. I gave you the example of Mt. Kilimanjaro to make my point.  There is no definition of a Mountain that will exclude Mt. Kilimanjaro. Give it up.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: Kichwa on October 25, 2016, 08:31:55 PM
There you go again, its not about your personal heroes.  Some people consider Lucifer their personal heroes and I am not about to have an argument with them.  We are talking about national heroes-Mashujaa day.  National heroes are not up to you and Ouru to pick.  Here is my point again for the umpteenth time: There is no National criteria that you can come up with that will exclude Raila, Tom Mboya and Jaramogi from "mashujaa". 

It no big deal to me and majority of kenyan including Uhuru who forget your dear leaders. They don't add ugali to anybody sufuria. You cannot force heros on anybody. I don't have to revere or respect your heros..and you don't have to mine.
Like I told you before, you are wasting your time.  There are no subjective or objective national tests or standards or codification that will exclude Jaramogi and Raila as Mashujaa. They are in and you and Ouru are wasting our time and your time. I gave you the example of Mt. Kilimanjaro to make my point.  There is no definition of a Mountain that will exclude Mt. Kilimanjaro. Give it up.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: Nefertiti on October 25, 2016, 10:45:16 PM
I think we should forget about these old fellows and focus on those solving today's problems. Innovators, creators, top athletes, artists, doctors, etc. We can have a Walk of Fame or museum for independence/liberation heroes... 50yrs is enough hero worship.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: Kichwa on October 26, 2016, 03:48:52 PM
Good ideas are not limited by age otherwise toddlers and teenagers would be the smartest people on earth.  You cannot ignore the life experience and the wisdom of the elderly.

I think we should forget about these old fellows and focus on those solving today's problems. Innovators, creators, top athletes, artists, doctors, etc. We can have a Walk of Fame or museum for independence/liberation heroes... 50yrs is enough hero worship.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants on October 26, 2016, 05:10:10 PM
Good ideas are not limited by age otherwise toddlers and teenagers would be the smartest people on earth.  You cannot ignore the life experience and the wisdom of the elderly.

I think we should forget about these old fellows and focus on those solving today's problems. Innovators, creators, top athletes, artists, doctors, etc. We can have a Walk of Fame or museum for independence/liberation heroes... 50yrs is enough hero worship.

I think hero-worship in general is thoroughly misguided.  But it's also part of human nature.  I am a bit of a libertarian when it comes to that.  That said, I think wanjiku is the only hero I can point to in Kenya for putting up for 53 years with the gratuitously bad leadership. 

I would call the current crop of political leadership heroes if heroism is strictly restricted to the use of public positions to line your pockets.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: Kichwa on October 28, 2016, 09:11:26 PM
The word hero worship is so misused in Kenya its lost its useful meaning other than. I have attacked ouru and Ruto several times but I think most of their supporters have legitimate reasons to support them and I would not refer to them as hero worshipers.

Good ideas are not limited by age otherwise toddlers and teenagers would be the smartest people on earth.  You cannot ignore the life experience and the wisdom of the elderly.

I think we should forget about these old fellows and focus on those solving today's problems. Innovators, creators, top athletes, artists, doctors, etc. We can have a Walk of Fame or museum for independence/liberation heroes... 50yrs is enough hero worship.

I think hero-worship in general is thoroughly misguided.  But it's also part of human nature.  I am a bit of a libertarian when it comes to that.  That said, I think wanjiku is the only hero I can point to in Kenya for putting up for 53 years with the gratuitously bad leadership. 

I would call the current crop of political leadership heroes if heroism is strictly restricted to the use of public positions to line your pockets.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants on October 29, 2016, 01:39:42 AM
The word hero worship is so misused in Kenya its lost its useful meaning other than. I have attacked ouru and Ruto several times but I think most of their supporters have legitimate reasons to support them and I would not refer to them as hero worshipers.

Good ideas are not limited by age otherwise toddlers and teenagers would be the smartest people on earth.  You cannot ignore the life experience and the wisdom of the elderly.

I think we should forget about these old fellows and focus on those solving today's problems. Innovators, creators, top athletes, artists, doctors, etc. We can have a Walk of Fame or museum for independence/liberation heroes... 50yrs is enough hero worship.

I think hero-worship in general is thoroughly misguided.  But it's also part of human nature.  I am a bit of a libertarian when it comes to that.  That said, I think wanjiku is the only hero I can point to in Kenya for putting up for 53 years with the gratuitously bad leadership. 

I would call the current crop of political leadership heroes if heroism is strictly restricted to the use of public positions to line your pockets.

They are their supporters tribal heroes.  The same largely applies to Raila and CORD's leadership.  The fact that each base is quite literally blind to each of their "our man's" very evident flaws is what makes hero-worship ring true.
Title: Re: Ouru omits Jaramogi and Raila from 1st and 2nd liberation
Post by: Kichwa on October 29, 2016, 05:10:56 PM
I do not think the supporters of each side is blind to their leaders shortcoming.  Democracy is modeled after the adversarial legal system in the common law tradition, where two advocates represent their parties' positions before an impartial person or group of people, usually a jury or judge, who attempt to determine the truth of the case.  In this tradition, the advocate does not have to duel on the weaknesses of his client unless for strategic reasons.  In the end, the whole truth comes out because both side is able to bring about the strengths and the weaknesses of both sides and the judge or the jury is able to make an informed decision. Raila supporters know about Raila's weaknesses and they talk about it all the time amongst themselves.  I know this is true for Ouru and Ruto supporters.  Advocates in the adversarial system do the same.  They discuss with their clients the weaknesses of their case in private but it would be malpractice to do so in court.

The word hero worship is so misused in Kenya its lost its useful meaning other than. I have attacked ouru and Ruto several times but I think most of their supporters have legitimate reasons to support them and I would not refer to them as hero worshipers.

Good ideas are not limited by age otherwise toddlers and teenagers would be the smartest people on earth.  You cannot ignore the life experience and the wisdom of the elderly.

I think we should forget about these old fellows and focus on those solving today's problems. Innovators, creators, top athletes, artists, doctors, etc. We can have a Walk of Fame or museum for independence/liberation heroes... 50yrs is enough hero worship.

I think hero-worship in general is thoroughly misguided.  But it's also part of human nature.  I am a bit of a libertarian when it comes to that.  That said, I think wanjiku is the only hero I can point to in Kenya for putting up for 53 years with the gratuitously bad leadership. 

I would call the current crop of political leadership heroes if heroism is strictly restricted to the use of public positions to line your pockets.

They are their supporters tribal heroes.  The same largely applies to Raila and CORD's leadership.  The fact that each base is quite literally blind to each of their "our man's" very evident flaws is what makes hero-worship ring true.