Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: RVtitem on July 21, 2016, 05:31:21 PM
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While many of us are working to ensure that the Occupy movement will have a lasting impact, it’s worthwhile to consider other countries where masses of people succeeded in nonviolently bringing about a high degree of democracy and economic justice. Sweden and Norway, for example, both experienced a major power shift in the 1930s after prolonged nonviolent struggle. They “fired” the top 1 percent of people who set the direction for society and created the basis for something different.
A march in Ådalen, Sweden, in 1931.
Both countries had a history of horrendous poverty. When the 1 percent was in charge, hundreds of thousands of people emigrated to avoid starvation. Under the leadership of the working class, however, both countries built robust and successful economies that nearly eliminated poverty, expanded free university education, abolished slums, provided excellent health care available to all as a matter of right and created a system of full employment. Unlike the Norwegians, the Swedes didn’t find oil, but that didn’t stop them from building what the latest CIAWorld Factbookcalls “an enviable standard of living.”
Neither country is a utopia, as readers of the crime novels by Stieg Larsson, Kurt Wallender and Jo Nesbro will know. Critical left-wing authors such as these try to push Sweden and Norway to continue on the path toward more fully just societies. However, as an American activist who first encountered Norway as a student in 1959 and learned some of its language and culture, the achievements I found amazed me. I remember, for example, bicycling for hours through a small industrial city, looking in vain for substandard housing. Sometimes resisting the evidence of my eyes, I made up stories that “accounted for” the differences I saw: “small country,” “homogeneous,” “a value consensus.” I finally gave up imposing my frameworks on these countries and learned the real reason: their own histories.
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2012/01/26/how-swedes-and-norwegians-broke-power-1-percent
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Interesting article.
Would be difficult to emulate in Kenya. The Swedes and Norwegians correctly identified the culprits (the 1%) and went after them.
Our 1% are more ingenious. They've brainwashed us to believe that only and only when our tribal leader is in charge and eating, things will turn for the better. So wanainchi are constantly at loggerheads with one other, trying to make sure their chosen one either sits at the top or as close as possible.
Being homogeneous most certainly played a very decisive role for the Swedes and Norwegians.
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Sweden is a monarchy with a puppet regime/democracy like lots of Northernish European countries. Far from being a full fledged pluralist democracy. Monarchies maintain the peace and that's why when countries attack they go for the royal bloodline. Demolishing that is a fast track to globalizing a capitalist driven pluralism over a bedrock of bloody democracy. This is something conspiracy theorists refer to as the Zionist agenda because the Jews don't have a homeland etc. The birth pangs of democracy are bloody. No true democracy can be born out of peace. Even Kenya in that respects has achieved more milestones in laying down her democratic foundation.
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The Swedes, Germans, etc are an outstanding lot compared to say US. Locally Kenya is quite ahead of Ug where their Matiba (Besigye) is still in Nyayo House. Democracy is almost meaningless for us until now maybe. With youth and women funds, etc... now I see chiefs dishing out cash to old people. Inklings of a welfare state.
US has many entitlements like jobless claims but still too much inequality.
Sweden is a monarchy with a puppet regime/democracy like lots of Northernish European countries. Far from being a full fledged pluralist democracy. Monarchies maintain the peace and that's why when countries attack they go for the royal bloodline. Demolishing that is a fast track to globalizing a capitalist driven pluralism over a bedrock of bloody democracy. This is something conspiracy theorists refer to as the Zionist agenda because the Jews don't have a homeland etc. The birth pangs of democracy are bloody. No true democracy can be born out of peace. Even Kenya in that respects has achieved more milestones in laying down her democratic foundation.
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Robina,
How can you compare Kenya to Uganda?
I would rather South Korea etc..
The Swedes, Germans, etc are an outstanding lot compared to say US. Locally Kenya is quite ahead of Ug where their Matiba (Besigye) is still in Nyayo House. Democracy is almost meaningless for us until now maybe. With youth and women funds, etc... now I see chiefs dishing out cash to old people. Inklings of a welfare state.
US has many entitlements like jobless claims but still too much inequality.
Sweden is a monarchy with a puppet regime/democracy like lots of Northernish European countries. Far from being a full fledged pluralist democracy. Monarchies maintain the peace and that's why when countries attack they go for the royal bloodline. Demolishing that is a fast track to globalizing a capitalist driven pluralism over a bedrock of bloody democracy. This is something conspiracy theorists refer to as the Zionist agenda because the Jews don't have a homeland etc. The birth pangs of democracy are bloody. No true democracy can be born out of peace. Even Kenya in that respects has achieved more milestones in laying down her democratic foundation.
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We are talking state vs socioeconomic systems. Kenya is advancing in freedoms and democracy while Uganda is in diapers. Due to peanut economy, democracy is freedom to breathe, move and run a kiosk. No meaningful entitlements. Economic takeoff is what will make people enjoy freedom and democracy. For now we have "free" peasants and slum dwellers.
Robina,
How can you compare Kenya to Uganda?
I would rather South Korea etc..
The Swedes, Germans, etc are an outstanding lot compared to say US. Locally Kenya is quite ahead of Ug where their Matiba (Besigye) is still in Nyayo House. Democracy is almost meaningless for us until now maybe. With youth and women funds, etc... now I see chiefs dishing out cash to old people. Inklings of a welfare state.
US has many entitlements like jobless claims but still too much inequality.
Sweden is a monarchy with a puppet regime/democracy like lots of Northernish European countries. Far from being a full fledged pluralist democracy. Monarchies maintain the peace and that's why when countries attack they go for the royal bloodline. Demolishing that is a fast track to globalizing a capitalist driven pluralism over a bedrock of bloody democracy. This is something conspiracy theorists refer to as the Zionist agenda because the Jews don't have a homeland etc. The birth pangs of democracy are bloody. No true democracy can be born out of peace. Even Kenya in that respects has achieved more milestones in laying down her democratic foundation.
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kenya is no different from uganda in terms of overall poverty and socioeconomic progress...only that kenya has a few more millionaires.
One thing that stands out with those northerly countries is their embrace of consensus and shun of outliers so that majority win.
Their homogeneous populations also might be giving them advantage.
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RVtitem,
Do you find it fantastic that while Trump and Clinton have squared off for a year and are still far from rest, it took just a week or so of Tory leadership contest for the UK to pick a new prime minister? It totally fits your statement that the crown is always in charge with an icing democracy.
I rather like Theresa May. Such flow, such cool. Just like Angela.
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RVtitem,
Do you find it fantastic that while Trump and Clinton have squared off for a year and are still far from rest, it took just a week or so of Tory leadership contest for the UK to pick a new prime minister? It totally fits your statement that the crown is always in charge with an icing democracy.
I rather like Theresa May. Such flow, such cool. Just like Angela.
Interestingly enough, presidential systems such as we have in Kenya have historically had a much higher failure rate than parliamentary systems (the US of A is an exception...for now).
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Individually Swedes, Germans, Japanese seem lovely and altruistic. Collectively, they're immoral, and they've committed the biggest genocide in history (Germans, Japs) and colonized other countries (Sweden). I can't say they're politics and sense of civic duty today is enviable and spectacular compared to Kenya or Korea or America because they can get on their altruistic high horse on the basis of amassing wealth from raping other countries historically.
Americans individually are obnoxious and unpleasant but collectively they deserve to be the superpower. Yes they plunder oil to make world economies work, but let me reiterate, WORLD economies, not just for selfish me Russia, Germany, Sweden, Japan, European Union. The types of global initiatives America has established towards "world peace" is a continuation of it's duty to honor their history. I've seen how these initiatives have changed the world. That isn't something the Swedes, Germans or the Japanese can reflect on, whereas Kenya or America can. In 50 or so years, I can honestly say Kenya will be a greener, richer, sustainable city enjoying the liberties and democracy fought so hard by those today and yesterday. Whereas countries peaking today on the backs of committing atrocities and stolen wealth will have their day of reckoning.
The Swedes, Germans, etc are an outstanding lot compared to say US. Locally Kenya is quite ahead of Ug where their Matiba (Besigye) is still in Nyayo House. Democracy is almost meaningless for us until now maybe. With youth and women funds, etc... now I see chiefs dishing out cash to old people. Inklings of a welfare state.
US has many entitlements like jobless claims but still too much inequality.
Sweden is a monarchy with a puppet regime/democracy like lots of Northernish European countries. Far from being a full fledged pluralist democracy. Monarchies maintain the peace and that's why when countries attack they go for the royal bloodline. Demolishing that is a fast track to globalizing a capitalist driven pluralism over a bedrock of bloody democracy. This is something conspiracy theorists refer to as the Zionist agenda because the Jews don't have a homeland etc. The birth pangs of democracy are bloody. No true democracy can be born out of peace. Even Kenya in that respects has achieved more milestones in laying down her democratic foundation.
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I wouldn't be surprised if the Swedes resort to reintroducing slavery policies: http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/658709/sweden-breaking-point-migrant-crisis-pushing-scandinavian-to-the-edge
Sweden at BREAKING POINT: Migrant crisis is 'pushing the Scandinavian country to the edge’
SWEDEN’S “totally unprecedented” migrant crisis has left it at breaking point, experts have warned.
It's only 2% that's hardly much for gentrification.
Sweden, with a population of 9.5million, annually received over 160,000 asylum applications and the country is expected to take as many as 190,000 refugees, or two per cent of the population, in 2016.
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In 50 years I think East Asia (the Orient) will be back to the top as they were in the past before tumbling. US & Europe (the West) have had a short stay at the top of the world, they are on the downward trend now. Africans & Arabs (the Middle world) are nearing proper economic development for the first time.
It's the civilization spiral of our world. The Chinese committed undocumented atrocities in their previous reign. The US had slavery and is presently looking inwards to rejuvenate. Europe colonized us but presently going inwards (EU unravel, Brexit). One hopes Africa and Arabia will rise to the occasion and resist fresh colonization.
Neocolonialism: Oil wars in ME (US); human capital theft (US green cards); capital flight (US/UK tax, loot havens); mineral & material scraping (Chinese).
Individually Swedes, Germans, Japanese seem lovely and altruistic. Collectively, they're immoral, and they've committed the biggest genocide in history (Germans, Japs) and colonized other countries (Sweden). I can't say they're politics and sense of civic duty today is enviable and spectacular compared to Kenya or Korea or America because they can get on their altruistic high horse on the basis of amassing wealth from raping other countries historically.
Americans individually are obnoxious and unpleasant but collectively they deserve to be the superpower. Yes they plunder oil to make world economies work, but let me reiterate, WORLD economies, not just for selfish me Russia, Germany, Sweden, Japan, European Union. The types of global initiatives America has established towards "world peace" is a continuation of it's duty to honor their history. I've seen how these initiatives have changed the world. That isn't something the Swedes, Germans or the Japanese can reflect on, whereas Kenya or America can. In 50 or so years, I can honestly say Kenya will be a greener, richer, sustainable city enjoying the liberties and democracy fought so hard by those today and yesterday. Whereas countries peaking today on the backs of committing atrocities and stolen wealth will have their day of reckoning.
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In 50 years I think East Asia (the Orient) will be back to the top as they were in the past before tumbling. US & Europe (the West) have had a short stay at the top of the world, they are on the downward trend now. Africans & Arabs (the Middle world) are nearing proper economic development for the first time.
It's the civilization spiral of our world. The Chinese committed undocumented atrocities in their previous reign. The US had slavery and is presently looking inwards to rejuvenate. Europe colonized us but presently going inwards (EU unravel, Brexit). One hopes Africa and Arabia will rise to the occasion and resist fresh colonization.
Neocolonialism: Oil wars in ME (US); human capital theft (US green cards); capital flight (US/UK tax, loot havens); mineral & material scraping (Chinese).
What are the steps currently being taken by Africa and Arabia towards this goal?
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In 50 years I think East Asia (the Orient) will be back to the top as they were in the past before tumbling. US & Europe (the West) have had a short stay at the top of the world, they are on the downward trend now. Africans & Arabs (the Middle world) are nearing proper economic development for the first time.
It's the civilization spiral of our world. The Chinese committed undocumented atrocities in their previous reign. The US had slavery and is presently looking inwards to rejuvenate. Europe colonized us but presently going inwards (EU unravel, Brexit). One hopes Africa and Arabia will rise to the occasion and resist fresh colonization.
Neocolonialism: Oil wars in ME (US); human capital theft (US green cards); capital flight (US/UK tax, loot havens); mineral & material scraping (Chinese).
What are the steps currently being taken by Africa and Arabia towards this goal?
Outside of the Daesh Levant Arabia has ridden the oil boom to achieve a fairly good life for theirselves. The west has employed the Shiite-Sunni-Kurd divide to sabotage and milk them dry.
The African "rising" is a payoff of the commodity boom. The west utilizes manpower theft (green cards) and financial theft (havens) to reap us off; the Chinese have been scraping raw materials for their factories.
It is not a smart strategy (or "steps") but a byproduct of the state of the world that is helping Africa. For instance East-West competition ensures good offers and PR from both in our dealings. Weakness is strength - a popular maxim.
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The African "rising" is a payoff of the commodity boom. The west utilizes manpower theft (green cards) and financial theft (havens) to reap us off; the Chinese have been scraping raw materials for their factories.
It is not a smart strategy (or "steps") but a byproduct of the state of the world that is helping Africa.
Africa should be taking steps, not waiting for accidental byproducts.
The latest "commodities boom" was just another peak in the same sort of exploitation that we have submitted ourselves to for the last 50+ years. Not only is it now over, but it will turn out that it did not do much for Africa: many borrowed on the assumptions that prices would remain the same or increase, and falling prices can mean only plenty of pain.
A couple of interesting articles that I got last week from an economist friend:
Africa comes to the end of its commodities boom
The decline in world commodity prices has taken with it African economic growth rates. This shows the need for African nations to pursue industrialisation
http://www.worldfinance.com/markets/africa-comes-to-the-end-of-its-commodities-boom
and
End of commodities boom hits African countries
The global commodities super cycle has come to an end, sharply lowering the price of oil, gas, metals and minerals,” stated the World Bank in its most recent ‘Regional Overview for Africa’ review (published in late March). “As a net commodities exporter, Africa is deeply affected by falling commodity prices, putting pressure on the current account and fiscal balances.”
http://www.miningweekly.com/article/the-end-of-the-commodities-boom-hits-africa-2016-05-13/rep_id:3650
We shall remain in deep sh*t as long as we continue to do what we have always done: get stuff out of the ground, sell it to strangers, spend more in buying back "value-added" products.
Consider these two cases:
(1) Nigeria is a leading exporter of crude oil. But it spends billions of dollars in buying refined oil, and petrol queues in Nigerian cities are something else.
(2) Singapore doesn't produce a single drop of oil but each year exports $50-60 billion (more than the GDP of most African countries, including Kenya) of refined oil: it buys crude oil, refines it, sells back to the producers.
Red: Last night I attended an "African networking" event where I live; we have these regularly to work out ways to help each other, especially given unfriendly attitudes toward any sort of dark skin. In one group, I listened to all sorts of complaints against the West, heard stories of Africa Rising, etc. I asked them this question: All of you are intelligent, educated, and accomplished professionals. So why aren't you back there?
That proved to be an awkward question, because numerous introductions before that had consisted of "when did you move here"?, "why?", etc. The answers were the usual stories: dictator gone mad, lack of opportunities as a result of lack of anything resembling meritocracy (tribe etc. being key), and so on.
People are fleeing, by plane or boat or whatever, with many literally dying in the process. So, manpower theft? That's almost like complaining that someone stole the rubbish that was put out for the garbage-collector. On the contrary, one of the things I most admire of the US----and why I believe it will be No. 1 for a long time---is its brilliant schemes for self-rejuvenation: in addition to schemes that welcome the "best and brightest", there are schemes (Diversity Visa aka Green-Card Lottery) that simply recognize that a mixed, bubbling pot is actually good, etc.
Blue: I'll skip the standard bit of how our own "leaders" (sometimes elected!) are busy looting and stashing overseas. That's because a greater part of the heist is actually multinational companies illegally siphoning off money. And they can do that because of lax laws, corruption, etc.
A person is repeatedly careless with his wallet in a dodgy nightclub. He certainly does have a right to keep complaining about the fact that it always gets stolen---after all, theft is illegal---but if he really wants a solution ....?
Green: I spend quite a bit of "professional time" in China. They have nothing but contempt for us---they think we are lazy, clueless, and completely unable to make any use of our natural resources----and I am always puzzled by this idea that China is somehow better for Africa than the West.
If a sheep volunteers to be shorn, should it then complain that it feels cold at night?
It's a bad world out there. We can, should, and must complain about how we are getting shafted. But we must also look how we facilitate that and what we need to change.
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MOON Ki,
You make correct points.
It is well known the African does not have the energy and efficiency of the white man or the Chinese. Because of this we depend on luck, nature and foreign help first, followed by basic agriculture and mining. We have beat to death on here the horse of smart manufacturing, food processing or value addition industry and built a consensus of our sorry situation.
You are right: it is rape notwithstanding that the woman dressed provocatively, neither screamed nor sprayed pepper or outrightly "asked for it" :)
The reason it is Africa "Rising" with a quotation is the comical reality of the situation. The third world needs hope and God before any objective strategy can work. Our development is a byproduct of happenings elsewhere. It would be great to have actual plans but the proceedings and statistics at the UNCTAD14 conference were gleam. I just don't see it.
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I am sure Pundit would say something about UN SDGs or Africa Vision 2063 as planning. It is also hope. I read about the robber barons that built the US infrastructure and industry - Henry Ford, Andrew Canergie, Rockefeller, etc and wow at their thrift. Some have termed as "positive terrorism" their severe mental fiat and sheer scale. Such is what built the west. If you check the chronology of inventions you will see Europeans, Americans and non-Africans only.
To quote a certain politician, kwani sisi tulitukana Mungu?
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I am sure Pundit would say something about UN SDGs or Africa Vision 2063 as planning. It is also hope. I read about the robber barons that built the US infrastructure and industry - Henry Ford, Andrew Canergie, Rockefeller, etc and wow at their thrift. Some have termed as "positive terrorism" their severe mental fiat and sheer scale. Such is what built the west. If you check the chronology of inventions you will see Europeans, Americans and non-Africans only.
To quote a certain politician, kwani sisi tulitukana Mungu?
Oof, that's cold.
For starters:
Top 10 Inventions by African-Americans (http://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/inventions/10-inventions-by-african-americans3.htm)
Famous Black Inventors (http://www.black-inventor.com)
THE BLACK INVENTOR ONLINE MUSEUM (http://blackinventor.com)
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Robina:
I got the earlier "quotation" points, but it seems you have forgotten them here:
It is well known the African does not have the energy and efficiency of the white man or the Chinese.
The only thing Mwafrika lacks is good leadership. I'm sure you've seen the photos posted here of huge crowds gathered to cheer their "our man". (The other side is similarly "capable".) We've also seen them eating police violence while protesting "unfair" election boards. But how many have we ever seen out complaining about yet another huge corruption scandal or anything else they claim affects them on a daily basis? Empedocles was right on the mark on what our 1% has sold us.
It would be great to have actual plans but the proceedings and statistics at the UNCTAD14 conference
I'm sure CS Amina Mohamed will say that this one, like the WTO conference before it, this was a great success. Shows that Kenya (and, by extension, Africa) has arrived.
I am sure Pundit would say something about UN SDGs or Africa Vision 2063 as planning.
We have never been short of "visions"; in fact today's vision types can't compare with the ones we had at independence---Nkrumah.
And if our "leaders" are to be believed, there has this week been tremendous progress on Vision 2063: the African Union will now be issuing "union" passports, just like that mzungu union. Even the cover is red, just like theirs. There, we too can do it.
http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/07/20/486640594/africa-unveils-all-africa-passport-but-so-far-only-2-people-have-one
Would it have helped to first work out the necessary legislation in each country? Would it have helped to first see how it would work on a regional level? The AU says that it will now proceed with a "pilot" test: issuing the passport all AU heads of state. Did someone just redefine the meaning and purpose of a "pilot" test? Is it realistic to say that all Africans will have it by 2018?
That I don't know the answers to such questions goes some way in explaining why I'm not raking in big bucks as a diplomat.
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Wallow in your own self-pity. There is nothing wrong with Africans. There is certainly no GOD. Africans are doing incredibly well. Sub-sahara African latest growth that you call "commodity fueled" is not true. Ethiopia and many of growing economies including Kenya don't sell an ounce of crude or minerals. Sub-sahara African were isolated from the advancement in the rest of the world by vastness of it's land and has just about started integrating to the world economy. Africa is doing fine. Not only economically. But politically and socially too -there is lot of advancement.
If you cannot see Africa rise; then you're blind. That doesn't mean Africa will suddenly transform into a manufacturing power.
I am sure Pundit would say something about UN SDGs or Africa Vision 2063 as planning. It is also hope. I read about the robber barons that built the US infrastructure and industry - Henry Ford, Andrew Canergie, Rockefeller, etc and wow at their thrift. Some have termed as "positive terrorism" their severe mental fiat and sheer scale. Such is what built the west. If you check the chronology of inventions you will see Europeans, Americans and non-Africans only.
To quote a certain politician, kwani sisi tulitukana Mungu?
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As always you want to reduce a complex issue into a single-issue - lay all the blame on Africa's political leadership. Africa leadership is wanting (albeit improving) but it not the only thing holding it back. There are so many other things holding us back.
The only thing Mwafrika lacks is good leadership.
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As always you want to reduce a complex issue into a single-issue - lay all the blame on Africa's political leadership. Africa leadership is wanting (albeit improving) but it not the only thing holding it back. There are so many other things holding us back.
Look at it this way, we're very happy to acknowledge our "leaders" for giving us a teensy little bit of what they've stolen from us in harambees, selling our nation's future to China for a few overpriced roads and railways etc. yet we shouldn't lay blame on them their failures?
You tell us, where does the buck stop?
(https://www.trumanlibrary.org/images/buckstopsherefrontsmall.jpg)
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I wish it was the simple. The buck actually stops everywhere including you and me as individual. Do you personally work as hard as chinese, save as much as the chinese and invest as prudently as they do! Do you want to blame that on our politicians. Even if Kidero doesn't steal any shs from 30b budget he has-- that budget is not enough to deal with Nairobi problems.
Look at it this way, we're very happy to acknowledge our "leaders" for giving us a teensy little bit of what they've stolen from us in harambees, selling our nation's future to China for a few overpriced roads and railways etc. yet we shouldn't lay blame on them their failures?
You tell us, where does the buck stop?
(https://www.trumanlibrary.org/images/buckstopsherefrontsmall.jpg)
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A rising China was speculated along with the threat of euros (EU). Problem is oil. China doesn't have sufficient shipping ports aside from the North Korean Peninsula where it gets 40% of their oil. North Korea is a puppet regime for China's economic rise, whereas a unified Korea benefits America and the world at large. A rising middle class, worker's union, human rights etc. recedes China's economic progress to no different to a crumbling EU. 80% of the world raw materials come from Africa, crude oil Saudi Arabia/Caspian sea. Kenya even more promising:
Kenya's oil deposits can run her for 300 years
Details Print Email
JUST HOW MUCH oil deposits could there be in Kenya ?
According to an analysis by the prospecting companies- Tullow oil and Africa oil of Canada- perhaps enough to run the country for 300 years. Or enough to run the US for 18 months. Bloomberg reported that the two oil drillers, who first discovered oil in Kenya's rift valley basin only last year, now say the 450 KM long basin could hold 10 billion barrels- enough to run Kenya for 300 years!
Consequently, the oil drillers are planning to drill 11 test wells in Kenya this year. And remember they are also drilling wells in Ethiopia. Like Kenya, Ethiopia was deemed a barren land as far oil production is concerned. However, now that outlook is changing with discovery of oil in Kenya's rift valley.
http://www.georgewachiuri.com/investment-advice/142-kenya-s-oil-deposits-can-run-her-for-300-years
As it gets closer to this, expect more violence generated by the incumbent so China and such and such can privately profit Kenya's oil.
In 50 years I think East Asia (the Orient) will be back to the top as they were in the past before tumbling. US & Europe (the West) have had a short stay at the top of the world, they are on the downward trend now. Africans & Arabs (the Middle world) are nearing proper economic development for the first time.
It's the civilization spiral of our world. The Chinese committed undocumented atrocities in their previous reign. The US had slavery and is presently looking inwards to rejuvenate. Europe colonized us but presently going inwards (EU unravel, Brexit). One hopes Africa and Arabia will rise to the occasion and resist fresh colonization.
Neocolonialism: Oil wars in ME (US); human capital theft (US green cards); capital flight (US/UK tax, loot havens); mineral & material scraping (Chinese).
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Unlike science and math God is subjective. Even relativity makes some science subjective. Kenya after years of error-prone toil has achieved lower middle income at 50 years. The other day on a thread here I calculated Africa at 5% GDP growth will be at 30T US$, about 15K per capita, middle income by 2050. That is Mexico or China level today 30 years from now. Even then MOON Ki and you got into a catfight over "economic indicators" and "population dividend" and ayes and nays.
Progress is relative -- we are developing at a slow pace. I am realistic not self-pitying.
Wallow in your own self-pity. There is nothing wrong with Africans. There is certainly no GOD. Africans are doing incredibly well. Sub-sahara African latest growth that you call "commodity fueled" is not true. Ethiopia and many of growing economies including Kenya don't sell an ounce of crude or minerals. Sub-sahara African were isolated from the advancement in the rest of the world by vastness of it's land and has just about started integrating to the world economy. Africa is doing fine. Not only economically. But politically and socially too -there is lot of advancement.
If you cannot see Africa rise; then you're blind. That doesn't mean Africa will suddenly transform into a manufacturing power.
I am sure Pundit would say something about UN SDGs or Africa Vision 2063 as planning. It is also hope. I read about the robber barons that built the US infrastructure and industry - Henry Ford, Andrew Canergie, Rockefeller, etc and wow at their thrift. Some have termed as "positive terrorism" their severe mental fiat and sheer scale. Such is what built the west. If you check the chronology of inventions you will see Europeans, Americans and non-Africans only.
To quote a certain politician, kwani sisi tulitukana Mungu?
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I am sure Pundit would say something about UN SDGs or Africa Vision 2063 as planning. It is also hope. I read about the robber barons that built the US infrastructure and industry - Henry Ford, Andrew Canergie, Rockefeller, etc and wow at their thrift. Some have termed as "positive terrorism" their severe mental fiat and sheer scale. Such is what built the west. If you check the chronology of inventions you will see Europeans, Americans and non-Africans only.
To quote a certain politician, kwani sisi tulitukana Mungu?
Oof, that's cold.
For starters:
Top 10 Inventions by African-Americans (http://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/inventions/10-inventions-by-african-americans3.htm)
Famous Black Inventors (http://www.black-inventor.com)
THE BLACK INVENTOR ONLINE MUSEUM (http://blackinventor.com)
Good stuff. Nothing Earth- shattering except perhaps Ben Montgomery but good stuff. Notably noone from continental Africa proper.
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Good stuff. Nothing Earth- shattering except perhaps Ben Montgomery but good stuff. Notably noone from continental Africa proper.
True about nothing coming from Africa proper. Too busy trying to basically survive.
But on the other, I'd reckon 99% of most inventions are not earth shattering.
It's the little steps which count.
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As always you want to reduce a complex issue into a single-issue - lay all the blame on Africa's political leadership. Africa leadership is wanting (albeit improving) but it not the only thing holding it back. There are so many other things holding us back.
You do realize that "complex issue" is singular, don't you? :D
Look, can list any number of "many other things holding us back". Once you are done with that, ask these questions: What can be done about them? What is being done about them? If you then reflect on those, you will end up at leadership.
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As always you want to reduce a complex issue into a single-issue - lay all the blame on Africa's political leadership. Africa leadership is wanting (albeit improving) but it not the only thing holding it back. There are so many other things holding us back.
You do realize that "complex issue" is singular, don't you? :D
Look, can list any number of "many other things holding us back". Once you are done with that, ask these questions: What can be done about them? What is being done about them? If you then reflect on those, you will end up at leadership.
We are doing UN SDGs and Vision 2063. That's what. The powerpoints are great; the execution is insufferably subpar since independence. My reflection reveals the classic leadership as scarce bearer of full blemish. It has been discussed here that a country reflects the average citizen. If Wanjiku and Khadija are smart, educated and productive with high integrity and discipline then you get a new Canaan in short order. Sadly this is hardly the case in Kenya and most of Africa.
The literacy level in Kenya is 90%
Productivity is at 22%. We need 40% to score middle income. Japan has 76%
Corruption... this monster that chews any +ve blossom is ignored by all even UN. We are at the wrong end of the index
We need more than leadership by citizen and expert participation:
Literacy - this is being collectively handled for the better with mandatory, free basic education. Obviously there is massive room for improvement e.g. mandatory, free tertiary education (dip, bachelors in imperative economic areas)
Productivity - besides education, discipline and integrity should be instilled, we are doing poorly here. Mandatory 6 months NYS enrollment has been mumbled as part of the solution. Meritocracy too comes up
Corruption - we agreed a C- is generous for this Kenyan government and mwananchi. Strong institutions are suggested here. Again, shared duty. You note yourself how huge anti-IEBC mobs eat teargas yet fail to show up for NYS rally
These and other success factors are a collective responsibility. Not leaders only. Hard work and discipline for instance are what I call "energy and efficiency" we lack badly at individual level. Hanging your coat at your office desk to go run personal errands half the day... :(
These 3 items, which are a shared responsibility, will result in hard and soft benefits. The state will build infrastructure; FDIs will increase. Incomes and revenues will rise. State will invest some more in SGR, LAPSETT, regional integration, etc...
All this is going on albeit at a rate that depresses you. Heck, it does a number on me too sometimes: you see me proposing importing wazungu to run key institutions. You are not alone. Look deeper. Pundit's indicators are a place to consider.
http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/mobile/article/2000103729/how-low-labour-productivity-pricks-kenya-s-growth-bubble
http://www.brookings.edu/research/opinions/2013/12/30-kenya-economy-kimenyi
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Two quick examples of where I see leadership as relevant in all that:
Corruption ... Again, shared duty. You note yourself how huge anti-IEBC mobs eat teargas yet fail to show up for NYS rally
The people showing up to eat teargas do not just wake up and decide to go at it; they do so because they have listened to their "leaders", who could similarly get them worked up about corruption scandals but do not.
Corruption thrives in Kenya because the "leaders" lead at it, and the little people below simply follow; and the vice can be eliminated only in a top-down manner. A country has serious problems when the president is the largest beneficiary of theft, the deputy president is working hard to catch up and is "succeeding", and anyone else who (because of position) can get into the public's wallet in big way is busy at it.
Productivity - besides education, discipline and integrity should be instilled, we are doing poorly here.
The instilling has to be done by somebody. At whatever level that somebody will be the person in charge. Work your way up the levels, and you end up with national leadership. And evidence of how it works at a national level can be found in how Lee Kwan Yew sorted out Singapore. On the other hand, Kenya is a country in which a lack of discipline and integrity is evident at the highest levels, and its hard to see wananchi deciding that they should be different.
These and other success factors are a collective responsibility. Not leaders only.
True, and I did not intend to suggest otherwise. My view is something like this: Think of oxen attached to a plough, the task being to till a large piece of land. Man and beast have to work together. The person handling the plough cannot reasonably do the job alone---the animals have to do their bit---but he has the greatest responsibility in how the job gets done. He must guide and, if necessary, whip the animals.
Heck, it does a number on me too sometimes: you see me proposing importing wazungu to run key institutions.
Which is a statement on the leadership of those institutions (which are critical in properly running the country). And a sad one too after 50+ years of "independent and equal and capable of running our own affairs".
A large part of the problem there is that national "leaders" have devised a system in which (a) tribe and politics and eating, rather than merit and performance, plays a large role in who gets into quite a few such positions, and (b) the institutions are to be run in a manner than most benefits the, rather than the citizens, and they will work to undermine anyone who doesn't help their interests.
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Amazing ignorance. Corruption and poor leadership is part of being poor. Countries did not become rich by being non-corrupt and having great leaders. They became rich over time by improving on leadership and having less & less corruption as they become richer and richer. You don't become rich by being rich. You actually work your way out of poverty and it's manifestation (including poor leadership, poor productivity, lack of worth ethics, corruption, crime, slums, garbage and all the evils associated with poverty).So rather than wasting time daily listing what we know...elevate the debate into trends...compared to 1 or 5 or 10 or 20 yrs ago...are we become less or more corrupt..do we have better or worse leadership...is our economy growing or not..is our level of education increasing or not...do we have reliable data to measure progress?
Forget about absolutes...of the either you are corrupt or not...every country has some level of corruption.
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Amazing ignorance. Corruption and poor leadership is part of being poor.
Amazing ignorance? We are actually in agreement! Kenyans and many other Africans will continue to languish in poverty for as long as they accept poor leadership that thrives on corruption (and mindless mayhem). What else do they expect to get from corruption+poor-leadership?
Question: can good/great leaders tackle the numerous effects of the corruption monster etc.? Let's do some maths:
A+B = C
What should you do if you want to reduce C?
poor leadership, poor productivity, lack of worth ethics, corruption, crime, slums, garbage and all the evils associated with poverty
Absolutely solid points! And on these points the government of Kenya is doing exactly what?
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Gok has made tremendous progress in all those areas. The economy in the last 10yrs has grown nearly 5 times. From 15BUSD to nearly 70B now..and if we grow at same pace in the next 10yrs..2025...we will be 350USD economy..about the size of South Africa. Sub-sahara Africa has been fastest growing region for a generation now...so cut them some slack. US for example has probably stagnated the last 10yrs in the same 15-17trillion USD gdp...while Africa's GDP has grown 10 tenfold in 10yrs. There is progress in almost any indicator of development including leadership and corruption.You cannot divorce poor leadership or corruption from poverty. They are correlated. What countries need to try to do is to slowly growl out of the holes they find themselves. Leadership & governance is improving across all the board. I can tell you an MCA now is better than MCA of 90s. The same with Mps. Majority are graduates with lots of public or civil or private sector experience. The same with PORK and DPORK - way better than Moi - these guys can actually sit down and argue out Obama. That is improvement on leadership. Corruption of 90 type...which was looting spree..has disappeared. We have more transparency and accountability. Money that get stollen is now being kept internally.
Amazing ignorance. Corruption and poor leadership is part of being poor.
Amazing ignorance? We are actually in agreement! Kenyans and many other Africans will continue to languish in poverty for as long as they accept poor leadership that thrives on corruption (and mindless mayhem). What else do they expect to get from corruption+poor-leadership?
Question: can good/great leaders tackle the numerous effects of the corruption monster etc.? Let's do some maths:
A+B = C
What should you do if you want to reduce C?
poor leadership, poor productivity, lack of worth ethics, corruption, crime, slums, garbage and all the evils associated with poverty
Absolutely solid points! And on these points the government of Kenya is doing exactly what?
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Gok has made tremendous progress in all those areas. The economy in the last 10yrs has grown nearly 5 times. From 15BUSD to nearly 70B now..
First, rebasing is not actual growth. It is just counting a bit better. So you need to rework that story. Second, and skipping past whether the benefits of growth are being enjoyed by all, the question was not about mere economic growth; the "areas" were (your own list):
poor leadership, poor productivity, lack of worth ethics, corruption, crime, slums, garbage
Want to have a go at those?
Sub-sahara Africa has been fastest growing region for a generation now...so cut them some slack. US for example has probably stagnated the last 10yrs in the same 15-17trillion USD gdp
If a guy with 10 shillings increases his income to 20 shillings, that's 100% growth. Much bigger % growth than the guy with 1 million shillings who manages to add 100,000 shillings. But who has more money and who has added more money? At the bottom, the only way is up; and at the top all that is required is "maintenance". So "looky, looky; we are growing, and they are not!" needs to be moderated.
You cannot divorce poor leadership or corruption from poverty. They are correlated.
Yes. A look at the countries that lead Africa in corruption (Kenya, Nigeria, etc.) shows that that they are the poorest on the continent. Right? When I look at the people at the top who are busy robbing the public in Kenya, I can see that it is poverty that drives them. But they are winning! Jomo fought poverty and won, so Jnr doesn't have to steal. Arap Mashamba too seems to be doing well in his fight against poverty, as are many others up there.
I can tell you an MCA now is better than MCA of 90s. The same with Mps. Majority are graduates ....
That is better leadership? And the corruption and eating even at those levels? They went to school, so it necessarily follows that they are lesser thieves? An interesting angle.
We have more transparency and accountability.
These days we have a better idea of the theft. Is that the transparency? And which of the big thieves has been held accountable?
Money that get stollen is now being kept internally.
I'm sure that makes many Kenyans feel better about the theft. But how much money is it, and where exactly is it? Can you provide some figures and sources to support that "cheerful" message?
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The usual nonsensical response I've come to expect from you. The economy has grown on average at 5-6% - and the rebasing for kenya was not that "dramatic" - the base year I think was 2006 - and it was moved to 2009 - or something close to it - all economic indicators are up - it not just the GDP - pick any and Kenya (and most of Sub-sahara) Africa is way better (some pretty astounding) than it was 10 yrs ago - maybe you should visit Africa and see it live or look for pictures of thriving cities & villages. You clearly don't understand what leadership/governance is, what corruption is, and what economy is. They may see obvious to you but you've pedestrain views. If having educated person a leader is not improved leadership - then I don't know what leadership is - maybe it not the ability to make better decision - a std 8 graduate like Moi even with the best intention is going to make pretty bad decision overally - these are stuff that have been studied and concluded long time ago - both at family/individual/business/country level. That is why people insist of having "minimum" education standards. The issue of corruption is best left aside - you have a problem dealing with the obvious - how about the complex!
Anyway I don't have time to waste with someone of your calibre.
Gok has made tremendous progress in all those areas. The economy in the last 10yrs has grown nearly 5 times. From 15BUSD to nearly 70B now..
First, rebasing is not actual growth. It is just counting a bit better. So you need to rework that story. Second, and skipping past whether the benefits of growth are being enjoyed by all, the question was not about mere economic growth; the "areas" were (your own list):
poor leadership, poor productivity, lack of worth ethics, corruption, crime, slums, garbage
Want to have a go at those?
Sub-sahara Africa has been fastest growing region for a generation now...so cut them some slack. US for example has probably stagnated the last 10yrs in the same 15-17trillion USD gdp
If a guy with 10 shillings increases his income to 20 shillings, that's 100% growth. Much bigger % growth than the guy with 1 million shillings who manages to add 100,000 shillings. But who has more money and who has added more money? At the bottom, the only way is up; and at the top all that is required is "maintenance". So "looky, looky; we are growing, and they are not!" needs to be moderated.
You cannot divorce poor leadership or corruption from poverty. They are correlated.
Yes. A look at the countries that lead Africa in corruption (Kenya, Nigeria, etc.) shows that that they are the poorest on the continent. Right? When I look at the people at the top who are busy robbing the public in Kenya, I can see that it is poverty that drives them. But they are winning! Jomo fought poverty and won, so Jnr doesn't have to steal. Arap Mashamba too seems to be doing well in his fight against poverty, as are many others up there.
I can tell you an MCA now is better than MCA of 90s. The same with Mps. Majority are graduates ....
That is better leadership? And the corruption and eating even at those levels? They went to school, so it necessarily follows that they are lesser thieves? An interesting angle.
We have more transparency and accountability.
These days we have a better idea of the theft. Is that the transparency? And which of the big thieves has been held accountable?
Money that get stollen is now being kept internally.
I'm sure that makes many Kenyans feel better about the theft. But how much money is it, and where exactly is it? Can you provide some figures and sources to support that "cheerful" message?
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The usual nonsensical response I've come to expect from you. The economy has grown on average at 5-6% - and the rebasing for kenya was not that "dramatic" - the base year I think was 2006 - and it was moved to 2009 - or something close to it - all economic indicators are up - it not just the GDP -
One more time: Yes, yes, yes. I know all that. What I specifically wanted you to comment on was your own list:
poor leadership, poor productivity, lack of worth ethics, corruption, crime, slums, garbage
You add that:
If having educated person a leader is not improved leadership - then I don't know what leadership is -
I think I can see why Kenya is in so much trouble. No, no, no; having more people who have gone to school does not necessarily mean the leadership is better. On the contrary, those who have gone to school will (a) be in positions where they can steal more, and (b) be cleverer in their theft, e.g. adding 0s in a "theft proof" computer systems.
If you wish to argue that better education has led to less corruption in Kenya, then let's have an explicit argument, with supporting evidence. But I think that's going to be tricky: For example, right at the top we have Arap Mashamba, whose ambitions in education seem to be in tandem with his grabbing. And others at the top are not stealing big-time because their education ended in Std. 6.
The usual nonsensical response I've come to expect from you.
...
Anyway I don't have time to waste with someone of your calibre.
That's not nice. You should read this book:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51RWA6BmIWL._SY346_.jpg)
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You think the economy would grow if leadership wasn't getting better across board and if there was runaway corruption? The economy is growing precisely because we have better leadership and less corruption. That doesn't mean we are anywhere near where we need to be...but at least we are better than South Sudan for example. It not like Kenya hit some SportPesa jackpot the last 10yrs that saw it economy rise from 15b to nearly 70B -no! it coz leadership, corruption,crime, work ethics, slums and name them ....are improving.
The usual nonsensical response I've come to expect from you. The economy has grown on average at 5-6% - and the rebasing for kenya was not that "dramatic" - the base year I think was 2006 - and it was moved to 2009 - or something close to it - all economic indicators are up - it not just the GDP -
One more time: Yes, yes, yes. I know all that. What I specifically wanted you to comment on was your own list:
poor leadership, poor productivity, lack of worth ethics, corruption, crime, slums, garbage
You add that:
If having educated person a leader is not improved leadership - then I don't know what leadership is -
I think I can see why Kenya is in so much trouble. No, no, no; having more people who have gone to school does not necessarily mean the leadership is better. On the contrary, those who have gone to school will (a) be in positions where they can steal more, and (b) be cleverer in their theft, e.g. adding 0s in a "theft proof" computer systems.
If you wish to argue that better education has led to less corruption in Kenya, then let's have an explicit argument, with supporting evidence. But I think that's going to be tricky: For example, right at the top we have Arap Mashamba, whose ambitions in education seem to be in tandem with his grabbing. And others at the top are not stealing big-time because their education ended in Std. 6.
The usual nonsensical response I've come to expect from you.
...
Anyway I don't have time to waste with someone of your calibre.
That's not nice. You should read this book:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51RWA6BmIWL._SY346_.jpg)