Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Simanova on June 21, 2016, 08:06:26 PM
-
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CleuLsYUYAAEvHA.jpg)
-
:):):)
-
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClzlEhZUoAIwdJM.jpg)
-
(http://nairobiwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/trend11-18.jpg)
-
The way it works is like
if an African big man tied his own shoes, walked to church with family, used public transport, or pumped his own gas
the people he leads would be very disappointed with him "acting like a normal human" we like to think of our big men
as gods.
-
The way it works is like
if an African big man tied his own shoes, walked to church with family, used public transport, or pumped his own gas
the people he leads would be very disappointed with him "acting like a normal human" we like to think of our big men
as gods.
To me, it boils down lack of responsibility. Big men can do whatever they want. But if there is always that expectation of help from outside when they break it, it's a futile exercise.
-
Really? I see Obama spending millions of dollar moving with even larger staff than any African leader I know. You will not miss a picture showing a African leader in humble situation just the same way you'll find Obama once in a while acting like normal citizen. But on day to day basis...Obama has thousands of security and staff doing stuff for him.
-
Really? I see Obama spending millions of dollar moving with even larger staff than any African leader I know. You will not miss a picture showing a African leader in humble situation just the same way you'll find Obama once in a while acting like normal citizen. But on day to day basis...Obama has thousands of security and staff doing stuff for him.
Yep...it's basically cheap propganda.
The beef I have with Obama. The continued heavy involvement of the US military in other people's problems, not to mention creating new ones for them. At a ginormous cost, at a time when disinvestment in public schools in the inner cities is at an all time high.
-
My biggest beef was the spring revolution he caused in Middle East that basically imploded fairly stable countries like Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Yemen and Syria. He only stopped when this reached US buddies Saudi Arabia, Bahraini and the likes.Obama thought it was a brilliant idea to arm those "peaceful demonstrators" but everyone told him they were not peaceful; they were not democratic; they were ISLAMIC fundamentalist; they were and will never be the ALTERNATIVE; from where it started in EGYPT; it was the muslim brotherhood who were the engine of those "demos" -in reality -it was armed rebellion financed covertly and later overtly by CIA & Brits. Muslim brotherhood is a terrorist org that routinely massacre christians in Egypt. The same was repeated everywhere else in the MIDDLE EAST...which eventually morphed into ISIS.
Obama found Al qaeda on it's death bed but gave us ISIS.
Obama & clinton were very stupid not to realize that in middle east after hundrends of years of dictatorship; the only alternative voice were the daredevil islamic fundamentalists; You don't make a bad situation worse. Middle east will need to be transformed very delicately...for instance..it enough if Obama was to pressure those countries to allow say freedom of press or worship or speech...sort of release the pressure valve slowly...than outrightly support the only opposition they could find....which 100% were terror organisations.
They should never have encouraged or aided that spring revolution. It was BIG mistake.
Nobody was dying because Libya or Egypt or Syria were not democratic. They just lacked political freedoms but generally they lived happier and better lives.
Anyway I am glad Russia's Putin eventually said to hell with these American fools and took charge...and now Syria and middle east is turning the corner on those Obama boys. In the meantime Obama continues to drops weapons to friendly rebels...who are just another name for ISIS..it like going to Somalia..and throwing weapons to a faction of Al Shabab.
The beef I have with Obama. The continued heavy involvement of the US military in other people's problems, not to mention creating new ones for them. At a ginormous cost, at a time when disinvestment in public schools in the inner cities is at an all time high.
-
My biggest beef was the spring revolution he caused in Middle East that basically imploded fairly stable countries like Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Yemen and Syria. He only stopped when this reached US buddies Saudi Arabia, Bahraini and the likes.Obama thought it was a brilliant idea to arm those "peaceful demonstrators" but everyone told him they were not peaceful; they were not democratic; they were ISLAMIC fundamentalist; they were and will never be the ALTERNATIVE; from where it started in EGYPT; it was the muslim brotherhood who were the engine of those "demos" -in reality -it was armed rebellion financed covertly and later overtly by CIA & Brits. Muslim brotherhood is a terrorist org that routinely massacre christians in Egypt. The same was repeated everywhere else in the MIDDLE EAST...which eventually morphed into ISIS.
Obama found Al qaeda on it's death bed but gave us ISIS.
Obama & clinton were very stupid not to realize that in middle east after hundrends of years of dictatorship; the only alternative voice were the daredevil islamic fundamentalists; You don't make a bad situation worse. Middle east will need to be transformed very delicately...for instance..it enough if Obama was to pressure those countries to allow say freedom of press or worship or speech...sort of release the pressure valve slowly...than outrightly support the only opposition they could find....which 100% were terror organisations.
They should never have encouraged or aided that spring revolution. It was BIG mistake.
The beef I have with Obama. The continued heavy involvement of the US military in other people's problems, not to mention creating new ones for them. At a ginormous cost, at a time when disinvestment in public schools in the inner cities is at an all time high.
His half-way involvement in Syria has also lengthened the carnage without any apparent result in the end. He wouldn't let Assad wipe out the rebels, getting involved with just enough air-strikes to keep them alive without delivering victory. Like I said, generally creating or worsening problems. Back at home, he has not been useful to African Americans, other than as some sort of pride symbol.
-
He is still dropping weapons aimlessly in Syria with most of them ending in the wrong hands. It only Russia's Putin who have take ISIS to cleaners. And with that Putin has gained world respect. Obama is a failure. He want to pick the easy wins - CUBA? - but has done nothing for Africa or Africa Americans or anything that really matter. All talk. No show. He is the guy who is 50-50; wishy washy; he just listen to advisors; and go for middle ground; I doubt he has original ideas or guts to do anything.
Putin is the man who will help us fix Obama mess in Middle East.
His half-way involvement in Syria has also lengthened the carnage without any apparent result in the end. He wouldn't let Assad wipe out the rebels, getting involved with just enough air-strikes to keep them alive without delivering victory. Like I said, generally creating or worsening problems. Back at home, he has not been useful to African Americans, other than as some sort of pride symbol.
-
What a diatribe. It is so full of hateful comments and lacks objectivity.
What is wrong with the Muslim Brotherhood? The fact that Mubarak and other dictators labelled it a terrorist organization so they could attract rightwing American support does not make them terrorists. That school of thought was long dismantled.
Democracy in Egypt did not fail because of I.B. It failed because Saudi Arabia and the remaining Arab dictatorships decided to roll back democracy in those countries. Anybody accusing Morsi of dictatorship should now see what Al Sisi has set up as "democracy". My only beef with Obama on Egypt is that he did not stand up to Saudi Arabia
-
Former Tz president Ali Hassan Mwinyi...this is the honor and pride of X president who didn't steal
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmIJNm4WQAE3BAR.jpg)
-
This brown noser got his head stuck so far up Museveni's ass :D
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-V5-dd4LWIqs/U8ZrQyDEx4I/AAAAAAAABA4/d1pDCbexRCQ/s1600/yoweri.jpg)
-
Muslims Brotherhood is a terrorist org. Pure and simple. International terror org. They support virulent strain of islam that advocate for violence. It doesn't mean I don't symapthize with them or other terror org..coz the dictatorship in middle east..have made the mosque the only place to political organize....but we cannot replace military dictatorship like egypt now...with international terror org! Egypt or Libya or Syria are better off with military dictatorship than Obama "democracy" where ISIS/Alqaeda/Mulism Brotherhood/ Hezbollah or Hamas win election...then begin a campaign of turning their country into islamic state with really archaic ideas.
What a diatribe. It is so full of hateful comments and lacks objectivity.
What is wrong with the Muslim Brotherhood? The fact that Mubarak and other dictators labelled it a terrorist organization so they could attract rightwing American support does not make them terrorists. That school of thought was long dismantled.
Democracy in Egypt did not fail because of I.B. It failed because Saudi Arabia and the remaining Arab dictatorships decided to roll back democracy in those countries. Anybody accusing Morsi of dictatorship should now see what Al Sisi has set up as "democracy". My only beef with Obama on Egypt is that he did not stand up to Saudi Arabia
-
I respect your declaration. It is not exactly by the roadside but very close. What if I refuse to ask for evidence of this so called self evident truth and say: It is NOT a terrorist organisation pure and simple?
Muslims Brotherhood is a terrorist org. Pure and simple. International terror org. They support virulent strain of islam that advocate for violence. It doesn't mean I don't symapthize with them or other terror org..coz the dictatorship in middle east..have made the mosque the only place to political organize....but we cannot replace military dictatorship like egypt now...with international terror org! Egypt or Libya or Syria are better off with military dictatorship than Obama "democracy" where ISIS/Alqaeda/Mulism Brotherhood/ Hezbollah or Hamas win election...then begin a campaign of turning their country into islamic state with really archaic ideas.
What a diatribe. It is so full of hateful comments and lacks objectivity.
What is wrong with the Muslim Brotherhood? The fact that Mubarak and other dictators labelled it a terrorist organization so they could attract rightwing American support does not make them terrorists. That school of thought was long dismantled.
Democracy in Egypt did not fail because of I.B. It failed because Saudi Arabia and the remaining Arab dictatorships decided to roll back democracy in those countries. Anybody accusing Morsi of dictatorship should now see what Al Sisi has set up as "democracy". My only beef with Obama on Egypt is that he did not stand up to Saudi Arabia
-
So what is it. It not a political party. It a religious org that support violence and want to impose Sharia. That sounds to me like a terror org. It clearly won't be registered here in Kenya or US where political parties cannot be religiously intolerant.MB were overthrown by the army because folks were fed up with their shariah nonsense...and they were killing lots of copts.
Egypt was doing well under Mubarak secular rule. It doing better now under Isis secular rule. Than under some religious fanatics clalled muslim brotherhood.
I respect your declaration. It is not exactly by the roadside but very close. What if I refuse to ask for evidence of this so called self evident truth and say: It is NOT a terrorist organisation pure and simple?
-
Do you believe Moi was right to label Gitobu Imanyara a terrorist lawyer and communist? I don't think you do. You know that Moi was playing politics. In response to the signals from Washington (CIA) the enemy at the time was communism and the best way for a hyena to eat its young was to accuse them of smelling like communists.
Today that Hyena would label them as smelling of Islamism before devouring them.
Arab countries remain far in terms of democracy. Even our own imperfect democracy is far more advanced than anything you can find in Lebanon - the most advanced of the democracies. In fact Pundit, I can say there is no such thing as a democratic Arab country. It does not exist. Let us agree to that point at least.
Now how does a dictatorship react to an organized group? In the same way Kenyatta or Moi reacted to any organized groups. They either control them (Trade unions for example) or outlaw them (Opposition parties). This is something you know very well.
Is the Brotherhood innocent? Like all groups once oppression reaches a certain level they resist. It is a fundamental right of the oppressed to resist. The UN recognizes that partially when it allows resistance under occupation. The Brotherhood has offered various forms of resistance. Lately after the coup, some members have joined violent groups to fight Sisi's draconian state.
When it was legalized it functioned well as a welfare organization and it launched a political wing. The disorder there arose from Saudi money which overcame liberal voices.
In short, I cannot treat an organization as terrorist on the basis of the findings of an Arab dictator.
So what is it. It not a political party. It a religious org that support violence and want to impose Sharia. That sounds to me like a terror org. It clearly won't be registered here in Kenya or US where political parties cannot be religiously intolerant.MB were overthrown by the army because folks were fed up with their shariah nonsense...and they were killing lots of copts.
The Muslim Brotherhood is an Islamic organization that was founded in Ismailia, Egypt by Hassan al-Banna in March 1928 as an Islamist religious, political, and social movement.[1][2] The group spread to other Muslim countries but has its largest, or one of its largest, organizations in Egypt, where for many years it has been the largest, best-organized, and most disciplined political opposition force,[3][4][5] despite a succession of government crackdowns in 1948, 1954, 1965 after plots, or alleged plots, of assassination and overthrow were uncovered. Following the 2011 Revolution the group was legalized,[5] and in April 2011 it launched a civic political party called the Freedom and Justice Party (Egypt) to contest elections, including the 2012 presidential election when its candidate Mohamed Morsi became Egypt's first democratically elected president.[6][7] One year later, however, following massive demonstrations, Morsi was overthrown by the military and arrested. As of 2014, the organization has been declared a terrorist group by Russia, Egypt, UAE, Saudi Arabia and is once again suffering a severe crackdown.[8][9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Muslim_Brotherhood_in_Egypt
-
Note that Saudi Arabia is governed by Sharia. The country remains a key US ally as are Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, Bahrain etc. I just don't know when it became terrorist for people to use their religion to arbitrate legal and social issues. Do you know when that happened?
The West uses the Judaeo christian religious base for their laws.
-
We seem to agree. They have been forced to become terrorists. Now the question is simple. Would you rather we have the secular military dictatorship we have in Arab world or would you rather the only opposition - islam terror groups -were handed power. I say let keep the secular military dictatorship for some time. Let the USA and countries with leverage over these Arab nations demand over a long period some political reforms. It won't be easy. But it would be irresponsible to do what Obama did. Hand over power to terror groups that have been held hostage by islamic fundamentalist...just because it seem democratic to do so. In any case these terror group...like Ismalic Brotherhood or Hamas..use the same coercion tactic that military uses...to force people to vote for them.
Arab world journey into democracy is yet to start....and it will be a long journey. The option can never be islamic fundamentalist. They are the side-effects of the dictatorship. Not the solution.
Do you believe Moi was right to label Gitobu Imanyara a terrorist lawyer and communist? I don't think you do. You know that Moi was playing politics. In response to the signals from Washington (CIA) the enemy at the time was communism and the best way for a hyena to eat its young was to accuse them of smelling like communists.
Today that Hyena would label them as smelling of Islamism before devouring them.
Arab countries remain far in terms of democracy. Even our own imperfect democracy is far more advanced than anything you can find in Lebanon - the most advanced of the democracies. In fact Pundit, I can say there is no such thing as a democratic Arab country. It does not exist. Let us agree to that point at least.
Now how does a dictatorship react to an organized group? In the same way Kenyatta or Moi reacted to any organized groups. They either control them (Trade unions for example) or outlaw them (Opposition parties). This is something you know very well.
Is the Brotherhood innocent? Like all groups once oppression reaches a certain level they resist. It is a fundamental right of the oppressed to resist. The UN recognizes that partially when it allows resistance under occupation. The Brotherhood has offered various forms of resistance. Lately after the coup, some members have joined violent groups to fight Sisi's draconian state.
When it was legalized it functioned well as a welfare organization and it launched a political wing. The disorder there arose from Saudi money which overcame liberal voices.
In short, I cannot treat an organization as terrorist on the basis of the findings of an Arab dictator.
-
Pundit
May be we agree. Here are some old terrorist organizations/ terrorists with something in common:
1. Jomo Kenyatta = KCA=KAU (later KANU)
3. Nelson Mandela = ANC
4. Somora Machel - FRELIMO
5. Albert Einstein called Menachim Begin a terrorist (see the facsimile)
The brotherhood is no more terrorist than the ANC or Rachel Ruto's table banking movement. Dictators hate organized groups and the new bogeyman for the CIA is of course the Islamist terrorist. No country is left behind. Have you not seen Kenya's EJK record in that respect? Uganda just jailed its own calculated to coincide with Museveni's electoral fraud. If Nkurunziya had afew bearded Somalis to try....
Let us also agree on another thing: There is no alternative to democracy.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Albert_Einstein_and_others_letter.jpg)
We seem to agree. They have been forced to become terrorists. Now the question is simple. Would you rather we have the secular military dictatorship we have in Arab world or would you rather the only opposition - islam terror groups -were handed power. I say let keep the secular military dictatorship for some time. Let the USA and countries with leverage over these Arab nations demand over a long period some political reforms. It won't be easy. But it would be irresponsible to do what Obama did. Hand over power to terror groups that have been held hostage by islamic fundamentalist...just because it seem democratic to do so. In any case these terror group...like Ismalic Brotherhood or Hamas..use the same coercion tactic that military uses...to force people to vote for them.
Arab world journey into democracy is yet to start....and it will be a long journey. The option can never be islamic fundamentalist. They are the side-effects of the dictatorship. Not the solution.
-
Of course. Colonialism, Apartherid and Arab world military or hereditary dictatorship are nearly similar..they are largely illegitimate gov..that need to be condomned. But before we consider the opposition..like KANU or ANC -these Islamic terror group will only be taken seriously when they eschew violence and the virulent strain of islam then they will be r. Once they do that and behave like civilized political party then Obama can talk to them; Right now they are just not an option. They need to backpedal. There is hope in Tunisia..maybe that is the model Arab world will follow.
Pundit
May be we agree. Here are some old terrorist organizations/ terrorists with something in common:
1. Jomo Kenyatta = KCA=KAU (later KANU)
3. Nelson Mandela = ANC
4. Somora Machel - FRELIMO
5. Albert Einstein called Menachim Begin a terrorist (see the facsimile)
The brotherhood is no more terrorist than the ANC or Rachel Ruto's table banking movement. Dictators hate organized groups and the new bogeyman for the CIA is of course the Islamist terrorist. No country is left behind. Have you not seen Kenya's EJK record in that respect? Uganda just jailed its own calculated to coincide with Museveni's electoral fraud. If Nkurunziya had afew bearded Somalis to try....
Let us also agree on another thing: There is no alternative to democracy.
-
Violence in such cases is bilateral. One side - usually the government - pretends to have the legitimacy to use violence but outlaws the other side. That is why there are talks leading to peace. Here we have illegitimate governments fighting resistance to their dictatorships.
Egypt provided a working experiment where a group previously thought violent was unbanned and allowed to participate in politics. Unfortunately for them, they failed to carry out a full purge of Mubarak minions and paid for it. For example, when we take over in 2017, we have to clean the system of excess Kikuyus and kalenjins. There will be resistance but that is countered by carrot and lots of stick. If that purge is not carried out, the two groups could reverse the election outcome.
I think it is not these groups that are a problem. It is the puppet regimes in place. The Taliban are ready for talks in Afghanistan but the CIA is busy pummeling it with drone fire. It kills the very leaders who are willing to talk. They are bidding their time so Hilary or Trump can authorize a full fledged war. Hamas ceased violence and chose electoral politics. It won power and was denied it. We have Hezbollah electing to participate in elections but it is still harassed and attacked at will.
Of course. Colonialism, Apartherid and Arab world military or hereditary dictatorship are nearly similar..they are largely illegitimate gov..that need to be condomned. But before we consider the opposition..like KANU or ANC -these Islamic terror group will only be taken seriously when they eschew violence and the virulent strain of islam then they will be r. Once they do that and behave like civilized political party then Obama can talk to them; Right now they are just not an option. They need to backpedal. There is hope in Tunisia..maybe that is the model Arab world will follow.
Pundit
May be we agree. Here are some old terrorist organizations/ terrorists with something in common:
1. Jomo Kenyatta = KCA=KAU (later KANU)
3. Nelson Mandela = ANC
4. Somora Machel - FRELIMO
5. Albert Einstein called Menachim Begin a terrorist (see the facsimile)
The brotherhood is no more terrorist than the ANC or Rachel Ruto's table banking movement. Dictators hate organized groups and the new bogeyman for the CIA is of course the Islamist terrorist. No country is left behind. Have you not seen Kenya's EJK record in that respect? Uganda just jailed its own calculated to coincide with Museveni's electoral fraud. If Nkurunziya had afew bearded Somalis to try....
Let us also agree on another thing: There is no alternative to democracy.
-
Those largely international terror groups for me are not the option. The option is to press the current illegitimate gov to allow more democratic space..and hopefully something more secular/less violent will emerge. As of now the better devil is Gen Isis of Egypt rather than say MB.
It doesn't help that most of these terror groups agenda is global. If there beef was restricted to their own gov, maybe they would have sympathy. But their beef seem to be with everyone who doesn't subscribe to their archaic islamic ideas.
Violence in such cases is bilateral. One side - usually the government - pretends to have the legitimacy to use violence but outlaws the other side. That is why there are talks leading to peace. Here we have illegitimate governments fighting resistance to their dictatorships.
Egypt provided a working experiment where a group previously thought violent was unbanned and allowed to participate in politics. Unfortunately for them, they failed to carry out a full purge of Mubarak minions and paid for it. For example, when we take over in 2017, we have to clean the system of excess Kikuyus and kalenjins. There will be resistance but that is countered by carrot and lots of stick. If that purge is not carried out, the two groups could reverse the election outcome.
I think it is not these groups that are a problem. It is the puppet regimes in place. The Taliban are ready for talks in Afghanistan but the CIA is busy pummeling it with drone fire. It kills the very leaders who are willing to talk. They are bidding their time so Hilary or Trump can authorize a full fledged war. Hamas ceased violence and chose electoral politics. It won power and was denied it. We have Hezbollah electing to participate in elections but it is still harassed and attacked at will.
Of course. Colonialism, Apartherid and Arab world military or hereditary dictatorship are nearly similar..they are largely illegitimate gov..that need to be condomned. But before we consider the opposition..like Violence in such cases is bilateral. One side - usually the government - pretends to have the legitimacy to use violence but outlaws the other side. That is why there are talks leading to peace. Here we have illegitimate governments fighting resistance to their dictatorships.
Egypt provided a working experiment where a group previously thought violent was unbanned and allowed to participate in politics. Unfortunately for them, they failed to carry out a full purge of Mubarak minions and paid for it. For example, when we take over in 2017, we have to clean the system of excess Kikuyus and kalenjins. There will be resistance but that is countered by carrot and lots of stick. If that purge is not carried out, the two groups could reverse the election outcome.
I think it is not these groups that are a problem. It is the puppet regimes in place. The Taliban are ready for talks in Afghanistan but the CIA is busy pummeling it with drone fire. It kills the very leaders who are willing to talk. They are bidding their time so Hilary or Trump can authorize a full fledged war. Hamas ceased violence and chose electoral politics. It won power and was denied it. We have Hezbollah electing to participate in elections but it is still harassed and attacked at will.
-
Of course once democracy is re-introduced in Egypt, The Muslim Brotherhood will participate and most likely win everything. Then we shall start from where we dropped off with the CIA and Saudi Arabia / Qatar funding another coup. Egypt first needs to inculcate and internalize democracy. It was amazing how fast Pro-Mubarak forces regrouped and launched a counter revolution. Countries without a firm democratic base always fall to such manoeuvres especially where institutions are non existent or weakened.
Why should secularism be right for a muslim country and not a Christian country?
I am not discussing global terror groups. That is a topic for another day.
Here are some European states' flags. Notice the Christian Cross:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Nordiske-flag.jpg/220px-Nordiske-flag.jpg)
Those largely international terror groups for me are not the option. The option is to press the current illegitimate gov to allow more democratic space..and hopefully something more secular/less violent will emerge. As of now the better devil is Gen Isis of Egypt rather than say MB.
It doesn't help that most of these terror groups agenda is global. If there beef was restricted to their own gov, maybe they would have sympathy. But their beef seem to be with everyone who doesn't subscribe to their archaic islamic ideas.
-
We can argue about the semantics..but I think we are largely in agreeement..I have no problem with their islam..I have problem with their imposition of shariah laws on everyone. I think such folks have no place in modern world. Therefore let us keep the fairly modernized/westernized/civilized military and heriditary leadership in Middle east for now...but equally press for more democracy there. The terror groups are the side-effect of the dictatorship....and therefore the long term solution..is not bombing them...but allowing them to participate in democracy. Of course when they also accept to abide by rules and regulations...that doesn't involve Jihad and other stupid islamic laws.
Of course once democracy is re-introduced in Egypt, The Muslim Brotherhood will participate and most likely win everything. Then we shall start from where we dropped off with the CIA and Saudi Arabia / Qatar funding another coup. Egypt first needs to inculcate and internalize democracy. It was amazing how fast Pro-Mubarak forces regrouped and launched a counter revolution. Countries without a firm democratic base always fall to such manoeuvres especially where institutions are non existent or weakened.
Why should secularism be right for a muslim country and not a Christian country?
I am not discussing global terror groups. That is a topic for another day.
Here are some European states' flags. Notice the Christian Cross:
-
I am not sure about MB imposing sharia on everybody. Saudi backed groups however have that as their agenda. ISIS is a Saudi Arabia/ Qatar creation. It is Sunni / Wahhabi in nature and it has such ideas. Other Sunni groups are Al Qaeda and Al Shahbab.
The problem of the west is to fail to make any distinction between the various Islamic groups and lampoon all such groups together attributing the worst of the extremists of them to all the groups. It was wrong to deny MB the chance to run government and embrace democracy in Egypt. They made some mistakes but then allowing the Saudis to throw away the water and the baby in it was gross. It showed the real extremists that real change in the middle east will only be permanent if it engulfs Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, and all those Guld Dictatorships.
My other point is that we have to accept there are people and they are muslims. They have their religion and may want their social, legal , political and economic life to be based on that religion. We have to accept that religion wherever it exists affects the lifestyle of the adherents. The knee jerk reaction of opposing anything religious should stop. Muslims should be allowed to use sharia if they so wish. However as their religion says:
In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful
Say: "Oh, you who disbelieve!
"I do not worship that which you worship,
"Nor do you worship That Which I worship.
"Nor will I worship that which you have been worshiping,
"Neither will you worship That Which I worship.
"To you your religion and to me mine."
- Surah Al-Kafirun
We can argue about the semantics..but I think we are largely in agreeement..I have no problem with their islam..I have problem with their imposition of shariah laws on everyone. I think such folks have no place in modern world. Therefore let us keep the fairly modernized/westernized/civilized military and heriditary leadership in Middle east for now...but equally press for more democracy there. The terror groups are the side-effect of the dictatorship....and therefore the long term solution..is not bombing them...but allowing them to participate in democracy. Of course when they also accept to abide by rules and regulations...that doesn't involve Jihad and other stupid islamic laws.