Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Georgesoros on May 28, 2016, 03:19:03 PM
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Corruption is rampant in Kenya. His superiors didnt know that he is this corrupt?
http://www.jambonewspot.com/police-officer-with-a-sh45000-salary-has-sh35m-m-pesa-transfers-a-year/
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Kyalo is a mere hard working sergeant. What would you hazard he would accept to hypothetically give up sergeant and take up the position of Inspector General with less salary than he makes? More kickbacks to look the other way perhaps?
A traffic police officer earning less than Sh50,000 a month transacted nearly Sh100 million on mobile money platform M-Pesa in four years, the National Police Service Commission (NPSC) revealed during a vetting session in Mombasa.
Sergeant Boniface Kyalo Muthini’s mobile cash transactions stood at Sh35 million last year, translating to an average of Sh3 million a month or nearly 60 times his monthly salary.
“That is a lot of money to be handled by yourself alone. You could be having 10 personal assistants for this kind of work. Am afraid that is what we observed,” the chairman of the National Police Service Commission Johnstone Kavuludi told the officer.
Mr Muthini’s transactions on his M-Pesa account last year are equivalent to what he would earn working in his current position for 58 years.
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Corruption is rampant in Kenya. His superiors didnt know that he is this corrupt?
http://www.jambonewspot.com/police-officer-with-a-sh45000-salary-has-sh35m-m-pesa-transfers-a-year/
Three things stand out:
1. Corruption (as you correctly mention).
2. No interest whatsoever from the investigators to follow the money trail.
3. MPesa and our banks facilitating the massive corruption (no KYC at all).
The Sh35 million that Mr Muthini transacted on his mobile phone translates to Sh3 million a month — or equivalent to what CEOs of blue-chip companies listed on the Nairobi Securities Exchange are paid.
Anyway, none of this is surprising where i.e. Kidero has close to 1b ($10m) in cash in his bank accounts.
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This is easy money that can be followed. How come prosecutors have no interest?
Corruption is rampant in Kenya. His superiors didnt know that he is this corrupt?
http://www.jambonewspot.com/police-officer-with-a-sh45000-salary-has-sh35m-m-pesa-transfers-a-year/
Three things stand out:
1. Corruption (as you correctly mention).
2. No interest whatsoever from the investigators to follow the money trail.
3. MPesa and our banks facilitating the massive corruption (no KYC at all).
The Sh35 million that Mr Muthini transacted on his mobile phone translates to Sh3 million a month — or equivalent to what CEOs of blue-chip companies listed on the Nairobi Securities Exchange are paid.
Anyway, none of this is surprising where i.e. Kidero has close to 1b ($10m) in cash in his bank accounts.
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This is easy money that can be followed. How come prosecutors have no interest?
Corruption is rampant in Kenya. His superiors didnt know that he is this corrupt?
http://www.jambonewspot.com/police-officer-with-a-sh45000-salary-has-sh35m-m-pesa-transfers-a-year/ (http://www.jambonewspot.com/police-officer-with-a-sh45000-salary-has-sh35m-m-pesa-transfers-a-year/)
Three things stand out:
1. Corruption (as you correctly mention).
2. No interest whatsoever from the investigators to follow the money trail.
3. MPesa and our banks facilitating the massive corruption (no KYC at all).
The Sh35 million that Mr Muthini transacted on his mobile phone translates to Sh3 million a month — or equivalent to what CEOs of blue-chip companies listed on the Nairobi Securities Exchange are paid.
Anyway, none of this is surprising where i.e. Kidero has close to 1b ($10m) in cash in his bank accounts.
Usually it would be EACC to show some interest. Normally after an outcry of some sort. They summon and grill. It should be easy to lock this guy up, because he probably doesn't have enough to bribe them. But we are dealing with dysfunction on a whole nother level.
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Usually it would be EACC to show some interest. Normally after an outcry of some sort. They summon and grill. It should be easy to lock this guy up, because he probably doesn't have enough to bribe them. But we are dealing with dysfunction on a whole nother level.
The failure to take real action---the worst that happens is that the fellows get sent home---actually encourages the vice; it tells the perps that they better make some real money before they get caught. As for an "outcry", there seems to be none coming: the Kenyan public appears to have accepted this sort of thing as the norm, and, going by readers' comments in the dailies, jokes are as much as one may expect.
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Usually it would be EACC to show some interest. Normally after an outcry of some sort. They summon and grill. It should be easy to lock this guy up, because he probably doesn't have enough to bribe them. But we are dealing with dysfunction on a whole nother level.
The dysfunction is much worse.
Example: a senior government official earning a maximum of let's say, 200k per month is taken to court over corruption proceedings.
Said accused arrives at the courts driving a VX, probably with a luxury chase car stuffed with bodyguards/aides, said accused wearing an expensive Italian suit and shoes, golden Rolex gleaming in the sunlight etc. accompanied by hotshot lawyers from one of the biggest and most expensive law firms in the country.
Nobody notices anything out of the ordinary.
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Corruption is rampant in Kenya. His superiors didnt know that he is this corrupt?
http://www.jambonewspot.com/police-officer-with-a-sh45000-salary-has-sh35m-m-pesa-transfers-a-year/
Not so surprising to be honest, our current systems breed corruption by empowering the fraudulent and dishonest.
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Its prosecutors not doing their job, and yet they get paid good money.
Usually it would be EACC to show some interest. Normally after an outcry of some sort. They summon and grill. It should be easy to lock this guy up, because he probably doesn't have enough to bribe them. But we are dealing with dysfunction on a whole nother level.
The dysfunction is much worse.
Example: a senior government official earning a maximum of let's say, 200k per month is taken to court over corruption proceedings.
Said accused arrives at the courts driving a VX, probably with a luxury chase car stuffed with bodyguards/aides, said accused wearing an expensive Italian suit and shoes, golden Rolex gleaming in the sunlight etc. accompanied by hotshot lawyers from one of the biggest and most expensive law firms in the country.
Nobody notices anything out of the ordinary.
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Its prosecutors not doing their job, and yet they get paid good money.
My point was, everybody's facilitating corruption:
1. Family members (s/he's doing "good").
2. The banks.
3. Suppliers / private companies looking for business.
4. Government institutions.
5. Desperate voters re-electing / praising big shot corruption kingpins.
6. Etc.
The prosecutors, even if they were foolish enough to try, would see their hard work go down the drain once the judges are bribed / witnesses are shot by corrupt guns-for-hire / they're fired, demoted, transferred / etc..
The only person who could do something is the PORK, but since all his family / closest friends / associates are deeply involved, it's a hopeless task.
Bringing in Raila as PORK would be absolutely useless also, for the exact same reasons.
Note: a few years back, before the 2007 elections, I witnessed a meeting of some big shot who wanted to run for parliament. The negotiations which took place regarding what his sponsors would "get to eat" once he won was quite an eyeopener.
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Its prosecutors not doing their job, and yet they get paid good money.
My point was, everybody's facilitating corruption:
1. Family members (s/he's doing "good").
2. The banks.
3. Suppliers / private companies looking for business.
4. Government institutions.
5. Desperate voters re-electing / praising big shot corruption kingpins.
6. Etc.
The prosecutors, even if they were foolish enough to try, would see their hard work go down the drain once the judges are bribed / witnesses are shot by corrupt guns-for-hire / they're fired, demoted, transferred / etc..
The only person who could do something is the PORK, but since all his family / closest friends / associates are deeply involved, it's a hopeless task.
Bringing in Raila as PORK would be absolutely useless also, for the exact same reasons.
Note: a few years back, before the 2007 elections, I witnessed a meeting of some big shot who wanted to run for parliament. The negotiations which took place regarding what his sponsors would "get to eat" once he won was quite an eyeopener.
After more than a decade experimenting, we should have long realized the problem has never been about institutions. Because Kenya has more institutions "dedicated" to fight corruption than your typical first world country; most of these just have some division of police to deal with fraud.
It's the culture. And the current political alternatives are invested in this culture. When they leave, their spawn will take over and continue from where they left. All the while paying lip service to fighting the vice; for instance the hustler has been very vocal against corruption in recent days.
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This for me is worst corruption...more than some random dude stealing 1B at go.This is now endemic problem that affect millions of people day in and day & require drastic actions.The best solution for me is to figure out how to stop this from happening. I bet if we used technology like cctv cameras, instant fines and really simplifies the traffic rules..otherwise firing and jailing these guys won't be much helpful.
Secondly we need a body charged with recovery proceeds from illegal activities including corruption.
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This for me is worst corruption...more than some random dude stealing 1B at go.This is now endemic problem that affect millions of people day in and day & require drastic actions.The best solution for me is to figure out how to stop this from happening. I bet if we used technology like cctv cameras, instant fines and really simplifies the traffic rules..otherwise firing and jailing these guys won't be much helpful.
Secondly we need a body charged with recovery proceeds from illegal activities including corruption.
Getting rid of the incentives which drives most Kenyans to corruption/crime.
Fixing the economy (industrialization) would be a good idea.
Otherwise things will have to get worse i.e. more and more taxes/loans/Eurobonds so as to barely raise enough money to monitor, pay the cops, and keep in jail the 10s of thousands of youth who keep on pouring into the streets each year after school with zero prospects of making any kind of living. Sooner rather than later, the bough will break.
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Soon you'll see money pouring into Tanzania because they are reforming govt to work for the regular guy. These guys actually jail big fish for being corrupt.
I wish I had a way I can invest there.
Kenya is too expensive, and corruption makes it even more expensive.
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Kenya now has an ecitizen system it would be very simple for the government to implement an efine system where one can pay the fine electronically instantly or a grace period of a month is given. And only the people who protest would be taken to traffic court. Adding more bureaucracy like the ntsa is just another layer for corruption that's being created. When the registration of companies was digitised it reduced corruption in the registrar office. The same thing with the lands department. The itax despite the clumsy rollout and over pricing has helped a great deal to reduce corruption in kra and the funny auditors who acted as go between. So basically the solution for me is less bureaucracy and technology.
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Precisely. One thing they should do is to make traffic offense bailable by default. Cops locking up people is greatest motivator for paying bribes. I know now cops can give you a free bail if you live 30kms from the court....which is good start..but we need option for instant fines..at about the same price as cop bribe. If cops are going to ask you for 500shs for this..then fine should be there...if they ask 50bob..then fine should be 50bob..payable via MPESA...so folks really have no need to bribe cops.
Folks should only appear in criminal court for real crimes..such as drunk driving or careless driving leading to injury.
Kenya now has an ecitizen system it would be very simple for the government to implement an efine system where one can pay the fine electronically instantly or a grace period of a month is given. And only the people who protest would be taken to traffic court. Adding more bureaucracy like the ntsa is just another layer for corruption that's being created. When the registration of companies was digitised it reduced corruption in the registrar office. The same thing with the lands department. The itax despite the clumsy rollout and over pricing has helped a great deal to reduce corruption in kra and the funny auditors who acted as go between. So basically the solution for me is less bureaucracy and technology.
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Kenya now has an ecitizen system it would be very simple for the government to implement an efine system where one can pay the fine electronically instantly or a grace period of a month is given. And only the people who protest would be taken to traffic court.
Technology will never make up for a deficit in morals, unless we get to the point where the technology totally removes the human element. In order for there to be a fine to be paid, first a determination that ones needs to pay a fine will be done by a person (e.g. a copper). That is the point at which the element of corruption comes in: "give me x shillings, which will be less than your e-fine or court fine".
When the registration of companies was digitised it reduced corruption in the registrar office. The same thing with the lands department.
The differences with these cases is that the provision of services are centralized to just one or two places, and technology can therefore have a reasonable effect. That is quite different from the case of hundreds of coppers on the roads and wherever.
I bet if we used technology like cctv cameras, instant fines and really simplifies the traffic rules..
And why would they not just conduct business away from the cameras? It is not possible to have CCTV cameras in all the places where coppers could be. Nor is the problem that traffic rules are too complicated; however simple they are, someone will break them and some corrupt copper will want to eat from that.
If cops are going to ask you for 500shs for this..then fine should be there...if they ask 50bob..then fine should be 50bob..payable via MPESA...so folks really have no need to bribe cops.
The problem there is that bribes are not a standardized scale, and fines cannot be set and changed arbitrarily. Once the fines are set, the coppers simply ask for less than that.
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The idea is to remove the human element as much as possible. If serves no purpose except to exhort bribes. Force all drivers to have modern number plates linked with bank or phone records. Try speed cameras that automatically track those overspeeding and send them tickets. These things have been done elsewhere. Force police men to wear cameras and videos streams...before making an stop or arrest..otherwise it becomes null and void. Technology if correctly deployed can reduce this bottleneck on our roads by a huge margin.
The idea is to reduce traffic police corruption which is endemic and systemic - a cost of doing business for everyone in this country.
This corruption for me is more dangerous than those big scandals like NYS.
Kenya now has an ecitizen system it would be very simple for the government to implement an efine system where one can pay the fine electronically instantly or a grace period of a month is given. And only the people who protest would be taken to traffic court.
Technology will never make up for a deficit in morals, unless we get to the point where the technology totally removes the human element. In order for there to be a fine to be paid, first a determination that ones needs to pay a fine will be done by a person (e.g. a copper). That is the point at which the element of corruption comes in: "give me x shillings, which will be less than your e-fine or court fine".
When the registration of companies was digitised it reduced corruption in the registrar office. The same thing with the lands department.
The differences with these cases is that the provision of services are centralized to just one or two places, and technology can therefore have a reasonable effect. That is quite different from the case of hundreds of coppers on the roads and wherever.
I bet if we used technology like cctv cameras, instant fines and really simplifies the traffic rules..
And why would they not just conduct business away from the cameras? It is not possible to have CCTV cameras in all the places where coppers could be. Nor is the problem that traffic rules are too complicated; however simple they are, someone will break them and some corrupt copper will want to eat from that.
If cops are going to ask you for 500shs for this..then fine should be there...if they ask 50bob..then fine should be 50bob..payable via MPESA...so folks really have no need to bribe cops.
The problem there is that bribes are not a standardized scale, and fines cannot be set and changed arbitrarily. Once the fines are set, the coppers simply ask for less than that.
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Excellent ideas that are generated here, but they die here.
These technocrats know all these technologies, but they will lose their income if these are implemented. But if you had someone who is really for govt reform, these ideas will be implemented within a month.
MPesa revolutionalized the nation, tech can revolutionalize corruption.
The idea is to remove the human element as much as possible. If serves no purpose except to exhort bribes. Force all drivers to have modern number plates linked with bank or phone records. Try speed cameras that automatically track those overspeeding and send them tickets. These things have been done elsewhere. Force police men to wear cameras and videos streams...before making an stop or arrest..otherwise it becomes null and void. Technology if correctly deployed can reduce this bottleneck on our roads by a huge margin.
The idea is to reduce traffic police corruption which is endemic and systemic - a cost of doing business for everyone in this country.
This corruption for me is more dangerous than those big scandals like NYS.
Kenya now has an ecitizen system it would be very simple for the government to implement an efine system where one can pay the fine electronically instantly or a grace period of a month is given. And only the people who protest would be taken to traffic court.
Technology will never make up for a deficit in morals, unless we get to the point where the technology totally removes the human element. In order for there to be a fine to be paid, first a determination that ones needs to pay a fine will be done by a person (e.g. a copper). That is the point at which the element of corruption comes in: "give me x shillings, which will be less than your e-fine or court fine".
When the registration of companies was digitised it reduced corruption in the registrar office. The same thing with the lands department.
The differences with these cases is that the provision of services are centralized to just one or two places, and technology can therefore have a reasonable effect. That is quite different from the case of hundreds of coppers on the roads and wherever.
I bet if we used technology like cctv cameras, instant fines and really simplifies the traffic rules..
And why would they not just conduct business away from the cameras? It is not possible to have CCTV cameras in all the places where coppers could be. Nor is the problem that traffic rules are too complicated; however simple they are, someone will break them and some corrupt copper will want to eat from that.
If cops are going to ask you for 500shs for this..then fine should be there...if they ask 50bob..then fine should be 50bob..payable via MPESA...so folks really have no need to bribe cops.
The problem there is that bribes are not a standardized scale, and fines cannot be set and changed arbitrarily. Once the fines are set, the coppers simply ask for less than that.
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Try speed cameras that automatically track those overspeeding and send them tickets. These things have been done elsewhere. Force police men to wear cameras and videos streams...before making an stop or arrest..otherwise it becomes null and void.
It is not possible to put "speed cameras" on every possible road where speeding is possible---even in the Elsewhere, and much less in a place like Kenya. What's more, such a camera does not, even in Elsewhere, mean that a copper cannot stop a speeding person. I don't know how wearing "cameras and videos streams" would help in such a case. What would they show if a copper stopped a speeding car? And, whatever the case, what would stop a copper from claiming that he forgot to turn on his gizmo, or that the batteries had failed, or whatever?
Even with all the cameras (worn and otherwise) rolling, bribes can still be arranged in other ways. As it is, the coppers are already ahead with their "anti-detection methods":
A section of traffic police officers are using touts to collect bribes from motorists in different parts of the country to avoid detection from authorities.
http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2016/05/30/revealed-traffic-cops-now-use-touts-to-collect-bribes-kavuludi_c1360506
The other thing is that in this particular case the notion of using technology to reduce the human element is especially problematic: Every one in the "food chain" is eating, with the lower levels passing a cut to the upper levels. So one can be sure that at all levels there is a vested interest in making sure that the technological approach fails.
To my mind, the best way to deal with corruption is to deal with it harshly and promptly. A place like Singapore has done this successfully, and China has also made great strides. But that requires political will at the highest levels, and that is non-existent in Kenya, where everyone is eating if they can. In Kenya today we have a president who got his wealth from theft; a Deputy President who, among other things, is know As "Arap Mashamba"---and not because he is a good farmer; senators and governors whose wealth is of very questionable origin; .... ; and so on downwards. Who will bell the cat?
Societal attitudes also matter: Kenyans will complain endlessly about corruption, but only when it is to their disadvantage; otherwise they have few issues with the vice and will happily indulge in it---be it the stealing of examinations, the stealing of land from others and bribing the judiciary .... whatever it takes to "get ahead". And on top of that, it is the "successful" criminals who are admired while the honest-but-poor are despised for not grabbing when they can.
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I appreciate technology from the perspective of improving efficiency. It may also eliminate some eating avenues. In the case of the traffic cops, the man on the street may see drastically reduced opportunities to eat. The people with authority and access to manipulate the data may see increased returns.
Ultimately the issue is not the mechanics, but rather the abuse of public trust.
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I appreciate technology from the perspective of improving efficiency. It may also eliminate some eating avenues. In the case of the traffic cops, the man on the street may see drastically reduced opportunities to eat. The people with authority and access to manipulate the data may see increased returns.
Ultimately the issue is not the mechanics, but rather the abuse of public trust.
Yes. In the NYS heist, much was achieved by simply adding 0s in a "tamper-proof" electronic system. In the old days, that scale of theft would have required a lot of work.
Technology will eliminate eating only when those involved are sufficiently ignorant or lazy. The more creative and hard-working will forge ahead, past the barriers of technology.
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So we do nothing until we get the guys (from where? ) that will non-corrupt and will deal with corruption. That is plain crazy. We will have to wait for 50 or 100yrs. Even now with corruption everywhere we can do something to reduce corruption. Technology is our best bet. It will make it harder for corruption to thrive. Of course every system can be gamed but the more we built in systems that make corruption hard the more we will get there. NYS was easily uncovered thanks to IFMIS.
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So we do nothing until we get the guys (from where? ) that will non-corrupt and will deal with corruption. That is plain crazy. We will have to wait for 50 or 100yrs. Even now with corruption everywhere we can do something to reduce corruption. Technology is our best bet. It will make it harder for corruption to thrive. Of course every system can be gamed but the more we built in systems that make corruption hard the more we will get there. NYS was easily uncovered thanks to IFMIS.
Technology is great. That said, the hardware is only as good as the software. You can throw technology at the problem. But as long as a crook is in a position to exploit it with impunity, the meal will at best shift location.
Technology can illuminate the extent of the problem as you correctly point out with IFMIS. Going after a perp still comes down to a person or in this case many persons.
The best bet, with due respect to technology, is to put the right people in key institutions of the state. An option readily available to the Kenyan every five years. Right now the presidency is occupied by a known land thief and the spawn of another land thief. Though they threaten another decade or so, the Kenyan has an opportunity to change that.
I don't see the cops on the beat as the biggest problem, though they may the most visible. If an argument could be made that corruption stimulates the local economy(I don't think it can), this would be the group. Everything is local. The bars, kiosks, butchers, hookers and investments.
Sergeant Kyalo is small fry compared to thieves involved in opaque deals in his parent ministry that deprive him of good housing, healthcare, intelligence, equipment etc resulting in general insecurity. The super corrupt not only loot more, but also stash and invest a good chunk of the loot outside the country.
You want to make corruption costly for the perp. The right President can make an example of the low hanging big fish. For instance, arresting Gichuru and Okemo illegally in violation of their Bill of Rights. Immediately handing them over to Jersey authorities. A Kenyan President, technicalities aside, can see to that.
Technology is great. Addressing impunity is even greater; the Kenyan is not entirely helpless on that either.
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So we do nothing until we get the guys (from where? ) that will non-corrupt and will deal with corruption. That is plain crazy. We will have to wait for 50 or 100yrs. Even now with corruption everywhere we can do something to reduce corruption. Technology is our best bet. It will make it harder for corruption to thrive. Of course every system can be gamed but the more we built in systems that make corruption hard the more we will get there. NYS was easily uncovered thanks to IFMIS.
Technology is great. That said, the hardware is only as good as the software. You can throw technology at the problem. But as long as a crook is in a position to exploit it with impunity, the meal will at best shift location.
Technology can illuminate the extent of the problem as you correctly point out with IFMIS. Going after a perp still comes down to a person or in this case many persons.
The best bet, with due respect to technology, is to put the right people in key institutions of the state. An option readily available to the Kenyan every five years. Right now the presidency is occupied by a known land thief and the spawn of another land thief. Though they threaten another decade or so, the Kenyan has an opportunity to change that.
I don't see the cops on the beat as the biggest problem, though they may the most visible. If an argument could be made that corruption stimulates the local economy(I don't think it can), this would be the group. Everything is local. The bars, kiosks, butchers, hookers and investments.
Sergeant Kyalo is small fry compared to thieves involved in opaque deals in his parent ministry that deprive him of good housing, healthcare, intelligence, equipment etc resulting in general insecurity. The super corrupt not only loot more, but also stash and invest a good chunk of the loot outside the country.
You want to make corruption costly for the perp. The right President can make an example of the low hanging big fish. For instance, arresting Gichuru and Okemo illegally in violation of their Bill of Rights. Immediately handing them over to Jersey authorities. A Kenyan President, technicalities aside, can see to that.
Technology is great. Addressing impunity is even greater; the Kenyan is not entirely helpless on that either.
Termie
If we get rid of the Kyalos by using tech, then its easy to get rid of the bigger fish, and then the mother fish.
35million is no small money. thats money ripped from peoples pockets who could have used it to invest and create jobs.
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So in the meantime until we elect these non-corrupt leaders; I don't know from where; considering the whole election system is equally rigged and corrupted; we do nothing. This I tell you is a very crazy idea.
We need to do what we can do. And nothing stop us from slowly replacing human element with technology WHEREVER POSSIBLE. There are certain aspect of traffic management that can be solved purely by technology...all the cops hanging around round about...can go if traffic lights worked...all those hidding in the bushes with speed guns...can be replaced with speed cameras..Alternatively we can outsource these to companies that we can hold accountable...
Technology esp ICT offer exciting ideas that can help us leapfrog.
Technology is great. That said, the hardware is only as good as the software. You can throw technology at the problem. But as long as a crook is in a position to exploit it with impunity, the meal will at best shift location.
Technology can illuminate the extent of the problem as you correctly point out with IFMIS. Going after a perp still comes down to a person or in this case many persons.
The best bet, with due respect to technology, is to put the right people in key institutions of the state. An option readily available to the Kenyan every five years. Right now the presidency is occupied by a known land thief and the spawn of another land thief. Though they threaten another decade or so, the Kenyan has an opportunity to change that.
I don't see the cops on the beat as the biggest problem, though they may the most visible. If an argument could be made that corruption stimulates the local economy(I don't think it can), this would be the group. Everything is local. The bars, kiosks, butchers, hookers and investments.
Sergeant Kyalo is small fry compared to thieves involved in opaque deals in his parent ministry that deprive him of good housing, healthcare, intelligence, equipment etc resulting in general insecurity. The super corrupt not only loot more, but also stash and invest a good chunk of the loot outside the country.
You want to make corruption costly for the perp. The right President can make an example of the low hanging big fish. For instance, arresting Gichuru and Okemo illegally in violation of their Bill of Rights. Immediately handing them over to Jersey authorities. A Kenyan President, technicalities aside, can see to that.
Technology is great. Addressing impunity is even greater; the Kenyan is not entirely helpless on that either.
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So in the meantime until we elect these non-corrupt leaders; I don't know from where; considering the whole election system is equally rigged and corrupted; we do nothing. This I tell you is a very crazy idea.
We need to do what we can do. And nothing stop us from slowly replacing human element with technology WHEREVER POSSIBLE. There are certain aspect of traffic management that can be solved purely by technology...all the cops hanging around round about...can go if traffic lights worked...all those hidding in the bushes with speed guns...can be replaced with speed cameras..Alternatively we can outsource these to companies that we can hold accountable...
Technology esp ICT offer exciting ideas that can help us leapfrog.
Technology is great. That said, the hardware is only as good as the software. You can throw technology at the problem. But as long as a crook is in a position to exploit it with impunity, the meal will at best shift location.
Technology can illuminate the extent of the problem as you correctly point out with IFMIS. Going after a perp still comes down to a person or in this case many persons.
The best bet, with due respect to technology, is to put the right people in key institutions of the state. An option readily available to the Kenyan every five years. Right now the presidency is occupied by a known land thief and the spawn of another land thief. Though they threaten another decade or so, the Kenyan has an opportunity to change that.
I don't see the cops on the beat as the biggest problem, though they may the most visible. If an argument could be made that corruption stimulates the local economy(I don't think it can), this would be the group. Everything is local. The bars, kiosks, butchers, hookers and investments.
Sergeant Kyalo is small fry compared to thieves involved in opaque deals in his parent ministry that deprive him of good housing, healthcare, intelligence, equipment etc resulting in general insecurity. The super corrupt not only loot more, but also stash and invest a good chunk of the loot outside the country.
You want to make corruption costly for the perp. The right President can make an example of the low hanging big fish. For instance, arresting Gichuru and Okemo illegally in violation of their Bill of Rights. Immediately handing them over to Jersey authorities. A Kenyan President, technicalities aside, can see to that.
Technology is great. Addressing impunity is even greater; the Kenyan is not entirely helpless on that either.
I am all for technology. 100%. It facilitates efficiency. Detection. Even eliminates certain elements from the corruption life cycle.
What am I against? The notion that Kenyans are helpless to do something about the crooks. Because they can do that every five years. Whether they will do it is a different discussion. The opportunities to do it present themselves every five years.
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So we do nothing until we get the guys (from where? ) that will non-corrupt and will deal with corruption. That is plain crazy. We will have to wait for 50 or 100yrs. Even now with corruption everywhere we can do something to reduce corruption. Technology is our best bet. It will make it harder for corruption to thrive. Of course every system can be gamed but the more we built in systems that make corruption hard the more we will get there. NYS was easily uncovered thanks to IFMIS.
Technology is great. That said, the hardware is only as good as the software. You can throw technology at the problem. But as long as a crook is in a position to exploit it with impunity, the meal will at best shift location.
Technology can illuminate the extent of the problem as you correctly point out with IFMIS. Going after a perp still comes down to a person or in this case many persons.
The best bet, with due respect to technology, is to put the right people in key institutions of the state. An option readily available to the Kenyan every five years. Right now the presidency is occupied by a known land thief and the spawn of another land thief. Though they threaten another decade or so, the Kenyan has an opportunity to change that.
I don't see the cops on the beat as the biggest problem, though they may the most visible. If an argument could be made that corruption stimulates the local economy(I don't think it can), this would be the group. Everything is local. The bars, kiosks, butchers, hookers and investments.
Sergeant Kyalo is small fry compared to thieves involved in opaque deals in his parent ministry that deprive him of good housing, healthcare, intelligence, equipment etc resulting in general insecurity. The super corrupt not only loot more, but also stash and invest a good chunk of the loot outside the country.
You want to make corruption costly for the perp. The right President can make an example of the low hanging big fish. For instance, arresting Gichuru and Okemo illegally in violation of their Bill of Rights. Immediately handing them over to Jersey authorities. A Kenyan President, technicalities aside, can see to that.
Technology is great. Addressing impunity is even greater; the Kenyan is not entirely helpless on that either.
Termie
If we get rid of the Kyalos by using tech, then its easy to get rid of the bigger fish, and then the mother fish.
35million is no small money. thats money ripped from peoples pockets who could have used it to invest and create jobs.
Someone like Kyalo should be easy to handle. But I won't be surprised if he is not. And it won't be for lack of technology.
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So we do nothing until we get the guys (from where? ) that will non-corrupt and will deal with corruption. That is plain crazy. We will have to wait for 50 or 100yrs. Even now with corruption everywhere we can do something to reduce corruption. Technology is our best bet. It will make it harder for corruption to thrive. Of course every system can be gamed but the more we built in systems that make corruption hard the more we will get there. NYS was easily uncovered thanks to IFMIS.
No, it's not a matter of doing nothing until whatever. A much better approach than imagining that technology is the solution would be to:
(a) Put pressure on those on top to act rather than just talk and to lead by example.
(b) Work on the masses to elect on bases other than which they do now.
Yes, the IFMIS helped uncover the NYS heist. But The IFMIS has not stopped anyone from stealing, and to think that technology will deal with what is essentially a psychological perversion misses the point. "Uncovering" or knowing what has been stolen, and by whom, is not and has never been the problem: even without the fancy technology, we know what was taken in all sorts of heists (Anglo Leasing, Goldenburg, etc); we know that coppers are eating 24/7, and we even have them actually saying so in public (hence this thread)!; etc. (In all instances of "everyday corruption", Kenyans can tell you exactly who is being bribed, for what, in what amounts, etc.) The real problems are that:
(a) nothing ever happens after any "uncovering",
(b) generally the "fight against corruption" is never more than lip service, and
(c) those at the top "lead by example" in the corrupt and thieving activities.
It is also not a matter of choosing between doing something (i.e. the technological thing) or doing nothing. It is that as long as the real problem is not addressed, nothing will change. So on the current path it will 50-100 years or until Kenyans have suffered enough to really want and demand change.
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If we get rid of the Kyalos by using tech, then its easy to get rid of the bigger fish, and then the mother fish.
35million is no small money. thats money ripped from peoples pockets who could have used it to invest and create jobs.
The Kyalos are passing a cut to to the top, i.e. the big fish. So are you suggesting that the big police fish would be supportive of getting rid of their share? You won't even be able to get rid of the small fish!
But let us assume that we can get rid of the small fish. In general, I don't see how getting rid of the small fish necessarily leads to getting rid of the big fish. Can you explain that logic a bit more? And take a look at what Anglo Leasing and Goldenburg did to the economy, the amount of money involved, etc., and ask how any small fish were involved.
Things actually go the other way:
* You will not convince the small fish to be honest when they see the big fish stealing left and right and being admired for their wealth.
* Honest big fish can bring about the major changes that are necessary to keep the small fish in line. Such is what leadership is about.
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The super corrupt not only loot more, but also stash and invest a good chunk of the loot outside the country.
Example:
The Goldenberg scandal ... is estimated to have cost Kenya the equivalent of more than 10% of the country's annual Gross Domestic Product,[1] and it is possible that no or minimal amounts of gold were actually exported. The scandal appears to have involved political corruption at the highest levels of the government of Daniel Arap Moi. Officials in the former government of Mwai Kibaki have also been implicated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldenberg_scandal#Cost
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Once you starve the small fish they wont have money to pass along to the big fish. In doing so posting of jobs to most corruptible areas like the weigh bridge and the port would be merit based instead of who among the small fish is the biggest money generator.
On anglo leasing, goldenberg and nys. It starts with budgeting and allocation of funds. The easiest thing to do in my opinion is to ring fence big projects. Such that bonds being issued are specifically allocated to a specific project. This can be done using a simple legislation. When funds are put into one consolidated funds its very easy for tenderprenuers and corrupt officials to inflate prices . NYS happened because it was allocated more funds than it could handle so it started in budgeting. Or better yet we get a legislation that would determine what percentage of funds collected and debt goes to recurring expenditure and what percentage goes into development. Finally we just need to limit the scope of government and what it can do. The notion that somehow NYS or kazi kwa vijana are tools to create youth employment is misplaced.
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You and terminator false premise that people will become less corrupt based on morals/ethics/leadership is not grounded in any facts or any reality. There is no human being who is not corrupt or immoral. Man by nature is selfish animal more attuned to grabbing and grabbing...survival for the fittest gene. You've see mardoff rip off 50B dollars from poor souls.What works here and elsewhere. Is putting more controls to first stop corruption from happening and then punishing when it happens. Kenya has come along way in first part and has not done well in the punishing part.
We need to do more in putting more CONTROLS to ensure corruption becomes harder in the first instance. In the Kyalo case....it mean making it ever harder for kyalo to collect 50bob..so if the guy has now ran to the touts...then you put in more controls...to force him to ran elsewhere.
Corruption thrives in places where systems and controls are lacking. Where one or two person can sign things off. Where banks do not questions where the money is coming from. We can go on and on....but we need more and more controls....at all levels...so we can stop this from happening. Having CBK/CID examine M-pesa transaction for example could have helps us nab Kyalo 5 yrs ago.
I not bigger on trying to close the ban when the horse has bolted....we could do more in arresting and recovery...but ultimately we have to make our systems corruption proof.
If we get rid of the Kyalos by using tech, then its easy to get rid of the bigger fish, and then the mother fish.
35million is no small money. thats money ripped from peoples pockets who could have used it to invest and create jobs.
The Kyalos are passing a cut to to the top, i.e. the big fish. So are you suggesting that the big police fish would be supportive of getting rid of their share? You won't even be able to get rid of the small fish!
But let us assume that we can get rid of the small fish. In general, I don't see how getting rid of the small fish necessarily leads to getting rid of the big fish. Can you explain that logic a bit more? And take a look at what Anglo Leasing and Goldenburg did to the economy, the amount of money involved, etc., and ask how any small fish were involved.
Things actually go the other way:
* You will not convince the small fish to be honest when they see the big fish stealing left and right and being admired for their wealth.
* Honest big fish can bring about the major changes that are necessary to keep the small fish in line. Such is what leadership is about.
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You and terminator false premise that people will become less corrupt based on morals/ethics/leadership is not grounded in any facts or any reality. There is no human being who is not corrupt or immoral. Man by nature is selfish animal more attuned to grabbing and grabbing...survival for the fittest gene. You've see mardoff rip off 50B dollars from poor souls.What works here and elsewhere. Is putting more controls to first stop corruption from happening and then punishing when it happens. Kenya has come along way in first part and has not done well in the punishing part.
We need to do more in putting more CONTROLS to ensure corruption becomes harder in the first instance. In the Kyalo case....it mean making it ever harder for kyalo to collect 50bob..so if the guy has now ran to the touts...then you put in more controls...to force him to ran elsewhere.
Corruption thrives in places where systems and controls are lacking. Where one or two person can sign things off. Where banks do not questions where the money is coming from. We can go on and on....but we need more and more controls....at all levels...so we can stop this from happening. Having CBK/CID examine M-pesa transaction for example could have helps us nab Kyalo 5 yrs ago.
I not bigger on trying to close the ban when the horse has bolted....we could do more in arresting and recovery...but ultimately we have to make our systems corruption proof.
If we get rid of the Kyalos by using tech, then its easy to get rid of the bigger fish, and then the mother fish.
35million is no small money. thats money ripped from peoples pockets who could have used it to invest and create jobs.
The Kyalos are passing a cut to to the top, i.e. the big fish. So are you suggesting that the big police fish would be supportive of getting rid of their share? You won't even be able to get rid of the small fish!
But let us assume that we can get rid of the small fish. In general, I don't see how getting rid of the small fish necessarily leads to getting rid of the big fish. Can you explain that logic a bit more? And take a look at what Anglo Leasing and Goldenburg did to the economy, the amount of money involved, etc., and ask how any small fish were involved.
Things actually go the other way:
* You will not convince the small fish to be honest when they see the big fish stealing left and right and being admired for their wealth.
* Honest big fish can bring about the major changes that are necessary to keep the small fish in line. Such is what leadership is about.
My premise is that corruption will be tamed when it does not pay. When it is costly. When it is just not worth it. Could ethics and leadership play a role? Maybe yes, maybe no. The key is whether it is worth it for the perpetrator. Do I think we should eliminate opportunities for it? Absolutely.
Corruption will thrive where it pays, even if "systems and controls are in place". It is indeed everywhere. Enron, Madoff etc.
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We have jailed for life or condemned how many petty robbers who engage in some violence? Thousands? Does that stop robbery with violence in kenya? No. Cops are shooting thugs on sight. Does that stop robbery with violence. Nope.
So like I previously said in a poor country like ours; were people have nothing to lose; you cannot open the door and say come & steal--and if we catch you--we will kill you! it won't work; it doesn't work.
We need to keep our doors closed, we need to have electric fences, 15 feet high walls, dogs, cctv cameras, watchmen and vigilantes. We have to stop the robbers on their track.
The same is needed in all our systems and processes...
As we over time move from low income to middle income to developed world....the risk-reward matrix will change--people will have more opportunities to live a dignified ethical and moral life.
We can continue to bemoan the lack of leadership/ethics/morals in ourselves..or we can tighten up the door bolts.
My premise is that corruption will be tamed when it does not pay. When it is costly. When it is just not worth it. Could ethics and leadership play a role? Maybe yes, maybe no. The key is whether it is worth it for the perpetrator. Do I think we should eliminate opportunities for it? Absolutely.
Corruption will thrive where it pays, even if "systems and controls are in place". It is indeed everywhere. Enron, Madoff etc.
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We have jailed for life or condemned how many petty robbers who engage in some violence? Thousands? Does that stop robbery with violence in kenya? No. Cops are shouting thugs on sight. Does that stop robbery with violence. Nope.
So like I previously said in a poor country like ours; were people have nothing to lose; you cannot open the door and say come & steal--and if we catch you--we will kill you! it won't work; it doesn't work.
We need to keep our doors closed, we need to have electric fences, 15 feet high walls, dogs, cctv cameras, watchmen and vigilantes. We have to stop the robbers on their track.
The same is needed in all our systems and processes...
As we over time move from low income to middle income to developed world....the risk-reward matrix will change--people will have more opportunities to live a dignified ethical and moral life
We can continue to bemoan the lack of leadership/ethics/morals in ourselves..or we can tighten up the door bolts.
My premise is that corruption will be tamed when it does not pay. When it is costly. When it is just not worth it. Could ethics and leadership play a role? Maybe yes, maybe no. The key is whether it is worth it for the perpetrator. Do I think we should eliminate opportunities for it? Absolutely.
Corruption will thrive where it pays, even if "systems and controls are in place". It is indeed everywhere. Enron, Madoff etc.
There is petty crime. And there is corruption(abuse of public trust). While petty crime in Kenya does not pay the alternatives make it worth the risk. By the time you are willing to risk being lynched for a wallet, you are virtually on your last legs. But that is a strawman.
As long as cost/benefit analysis favors corruption, you will have it kwa wingi. I agree that eliminating the opportunities for it is something that should be done; I really do. But the reason corruption thrives has more to do with reward than opportunity.
I can be stopped by a cop here in the US for speeding. I pull out a hundred dollar bill and try to shake the cops hand. He can easily pick the money, good for mid-week groceries or a weekend outing, and wave me on - yes it happens in the US. Instead I am more than likely to find myself slapped with felony charges. If Sergeant Kyalo, a millionaire no less, stops me for the same reason, I could drop 50 shillings and he would happily wave me on. What is your explanation for the different behaviours?
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You and terminator false premise that people will become less corrupt based on morals/ethics/leadership is not grounded in any facts or any reality.
Earlier I gave you the examples of Singapore and China, where the leadership has had clear impact. And in everyday life, in Kenya and elsewhere, many people are not corrupt because of their morals and ethics, although that might not be the sole reason. In fact, it makes no sense to suggest that morals and ethics do not affect corruption: if people engage in the vice, then, by "definition", there is a problem with their morals; conversely, a person of high moral and ethical standards will not engage in the vice.
There is no human being who is not corrupt or immoral.
Sadly, this seems to be the standard Kenyan attitude, which explains the tolerance for corruption and the admiration of the corrupt.
Man by nature is selfish animal more attuned to grabbing and grabbing...survival for the fittest gene.
That might be so. But it is illogical to conclude that such "nature" means they are necessarily corrupt and immoral. What morals and ethics mean is that people do not act on such base desires; that is what systems of morals and ethics---lessons from parents, religious teachings, professional codes of ethics, ...---aim to inculcate, and, for the most part they tend to be successful.
In the Kyalo case....it mean making it ever harder for kyalo to collect 50bob..so if the guy has now ran to the touts...then you put in more controls...to force him to ran elsewhere.
OK. We'll wait for the controls. Wake me up when they are in place.
Having CBK/CID examine M-pesa transaction for example could have helps us nab Kyalo 5 yrs ago.
One more time: the problem is not knowing who is corrupt.
A question: Do you routinely engage in corrupt activities and theft?
- If so, what would it take to stop you?
- If not, why not?
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We have jailed for life or condemned how many petty robbers who engage in some violence? Thousands? Does that stop robbery with violence in kenya? No. Cops are shooting thugs on sight. Does that stop robbery with violence. Nope.
The practice of criminal law has long shown that severe punishment works as a deterrence; so we need not debate that one. What you should not is that deterring many people from committing crimes they would otherwise commit is not the same as saying that crimes have been or will be eliminated. In your robbery example, what you should think of is the situation we would have if robbery with violence had no negative consequences.
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Pundit
If I understand you correctly, Are you saying that morality does not deter us from making right decisions?
If that is correct, then how come people like the Pope can chose to be so humble while the likes of Trump use any means necessary to reap money off the poor. Who has morals? The Pope or Trump?
I agree with you though that man is inherently corrupt. What Kenya lacks is law enforcement. A regular guy is harassed left and right while the moneyed are left to roam defrauding every person, institution can then get hold of.
You and terminator false premise that people will become less corrupt based on morals/ethics/leadership is not grounded in any facts or any reality. There is no human being who is not corrupt or immoral. Man by nature is selfish animal more attuned to grabbing and grabbing...survival for the fittest gene. You've see mardoff rip off 50B dollars from poor souls.What works here and elsewhere. Is putting more controls to first stop corruption from happening and then punishing when it happens. Kenya has come along way in first part and has not done well in the punishing part.
We need to do more in putting more CONTROLS to ensure corruption becomes harder in the first instance. In the Kyalo case....it mean making it ever harder for kyalo to collect 50bob..so if the guy has now ran to the touts...then you put in more controls...to force him to ran elsewhere.
Corruption thrives in places where systems and controls are lacking. Where one or two person can sign things off. Where banks do not questions where the money is coming from. We can go on and on....but we need more and more controls....at all levels...so we can stop this from happening. Having CBK/CID examine M-pesa transaction for example could have helps us nab Kyalo 5 yrs ago.
I not bigger on trying to close the ban when the horse has bolted....we could do more in arresting and recovery...but ultimately we have to make our systems corruption proof.
If we get rid of the Kyalos by using tech, then its easy to get rid of the bigger fish, and then the mother fish.
35million is no small money. thats money ripped from peoples pockets who could have used it to invest and create jobs.
The Kyalos are passing a cut to to the top, i.e. the big fish. So are you suggesting that the big police fish would be supportive of getting rid of their share? You won't even be able to get rid of the small fish!
But let us assume that we can get rid of the small fish. In general, I don't see how getting rid of the small fish necessarily leads to getting rid of the big fish. Can you explain that logic a bit more? And take a look at what Anglo Leasing and Goldenburg did to the economy, the amount of money involved, etc., and ask how any small fish were involved.
Things actually go the other way:
* You will not convince the small fish to be honest when they see the big fish stealing left and right and being admired for their wealth.
* Honest big fish can bring about the major changes that are necessary to keep the small fish in line. Such is what leadership is about.
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Once you starve the small fish they wont have money to pass along to the big fish.
That is indeed the case. But how does not having money passed to them make the big fish any less corrupt.
In doing so posting of jobs to most corruptible areas like the weigh bridge and the port would be merit based instead of who among the small fish is the biggest money generator.
Read carefully what you just wrote. Who does the job postings? It is the big fish. So as long as they remain corrupt, the smaller fish will also remain so: get rid of one lot of small fish, and the bosses will just send in another lot. In other words, you have in fact given an argument for why dealing with the vice should be big-to-small and not small-to-big.
On anglo leasing, goldenberg and nys. It starts with budgeting and allocation of funds. The easiest thing to do in my opinion is to ring fence big projects. Such that bonds being issued are specifically allocated to a specific project.
How would ring fencing stop, say, the padding of invoices of the specific projects? How would it stop direct theft of the money?
NYS happened because it was allocated more funds than it could handle so it started in budgeting.
That is a peculiar argument. If you look at Treasury's figure, you will note that a great deal of money allocated to various ministries and the like goes unspent. According to your argument then, we should have large-scale theft all over the place. Do we?
Here's another possibility: NYS happened because some corrupt people though they could steal the money and get away with it undetected.
Mystery of unspent Equalisation Fund billions four years after devolution ... With just a year left before new governors are elected, Budget experts at Parliament have now raised the red flag over delays in enabling counties to spend the billions.
http://www.sde.co.ke/m/article/2000202742/mystery-of-unspent-equalisation-fund-billions-four-years-after-devolution
The National Treasury has raised the red flag over idle cash held by counties in their respective County Revenue Fund (CRF) accounts at the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK).
According to the Budget Policy Statement 2016, at the beginning of 2014/15 financial year, counties had opening balances (money unspent from the previous financial year) of Sh39.2 billion, a thirteen-fold increase from the 2013/14 financial year.
http://www.mediamaxnetwork.co.ke/people-daily/197228/treasury-warns-counties-on-unspent-funds/
Kenya’s ministries have been unable to spend the bulk of money allocated to them in the first quarter of the current financial year, raising questions on the government’s capacity to implement the ever-growing national budget.
http://mobile.nation.co.ke/business/Unspent-government-cash-hurting-growth/-/1950106/2091706/-/format/xhtml/-/mpsouxz/-/index.html
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There is a popular saying. A poor man has no morals. That is whe re we find ourselves in. Those few lucky ones of us can afford to be moral or ethical but the majority of kenyans have to be literally stopped from stealing or they would steal -consequences be damned. For me morality...wrong or right..is more about consequences of our actions. There is a lot of reward for leading a good honest ethical and moral life...at least in the long term. That is why most folks try to keep on that lane..I included. Crime including corruption may pays in the short term but more often in the long run..you get caught. Of course greed and temptation to steal or cut corners I think is an enduring dillemma people face through their lives.
That is theory. Let get back to the problem. We have a crime here of corruption that is has gotten out of hands. Termie & Moonki think good dictator like leadership who is extremely harsh on corruption will work wonders. How we get there? The details seem sketchy..elect good leaders :).
I don't think we should wait until we have a benevolent dictator who will work his magic. I think making it harder for one to steal public money or engage in corruption is the way to go. Everytime someone get away ...we need to pause and think about how he managed to get in and steal...and worry later about jailing and recovering those assets. This is especially true where corruption has permeate all sectors including the criminal and correction systems that are suppose to deal with punishing and detering such acts.
So on this case or NYS case....we need to think about what could have been done to avert this. Would CBK having being more serious about money laundering have got NYS...yeah...heck in fact they got them and asked treasury what was going on! Would M-pesa guys have caught Kyalo long time ago..yeah...but they got him 5yrs late..and now we can fire, arrest and recover monies from Kyalo and his network.
How can we stop crime from happening. Termie say strong measures will be deterrent. I say putting water tight controls all over will make corruption very hard and risky -and make prosecution a walk in the park.
And these are questions all kenyans (not only GoK) are facing. If you ran any business you know employee theft is big! so folks have all these cctv cameras and name them to stop these guys on the track..because once the money is gone; it mostly likely gone.
Pundit
If I understand you correctly, Are you saying that morality does not deter us from making right decisions?
If that is correct, then how come people like the Pope can chose to be so humble while the likes of Trump use any means necessary to reap money off the poor. Who has morals? The Pope or Trump?
I agree with you though that man is inherently corrupt. What Kenya lacks is law enforcement. A regular guy is harassed left and right while the moneyed are left to roam defrauding every person, institution can then get hold of.
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There is a popular saying. A poor man has no morals. That is whe re we find ourselves in. Those few lucky ones of us can afford to be moral or ethical but the majority of kenyans have to be literally stopped from stealing or they would steal -consequences be damned. For me morality...wrong or right..is more about consequences of our actions. There is a lot of reward for leading a good honest ethical and moral life...at least in the long term. That is why most folks try to keep on that lane..I included. Crime including corruption may pays in the short term but more often in the long run..you get caught. Of course greed and temptation to steal or cut corners I think is an enduring dillemma people face through their lives.
That is theory. Let get back to the problem. We have a crime here of corruption that is has gotten out of hands. Termie & Moonki think good dictator like leadership who is extremely harsh on corruption will work wonders. How we get there? The details seem sketchy..elect good leaders :) .
I don't think we should wait until we have a benevolent dictator who will work his magic. I think making it harder for one to steal public money or engage in corruption is the way to go. Everytime someone get away ...we need to pause and think about how he managed to get in and steal...and worry later about jailing and recovering those assets. This is especially true where corruption has permeate all sectors including the criminal and correction systems that are suppose to deal with punishing and detering such acts.
So on this case or NYS case....we need to think about what could have been done to avert this. Would CBK having being more serious about money laundering have got NYS...yeah...heck in fact they got them and asked treasury what was going on! Would M-pesa guys have caught Kyalo long time ago..yeah...but they got him 5yrs late..and now we can fire, arrest and recover monies from Kyalo and his network.
How can we stop crime from happening. Termie say strong measures will be deterrent. I say putting water tight controls all over will make corruption very hard and risky -and make prosecution a walk in the park.
And these are questions all kenyans (not only GoK) are facing. If you ran any business you know employee theft is big! so folks have all these cctv cameras and name them to stop these guys on the track..because once the money is gone; it mostly likely gone.
Pundit
If I understand you correctly, Are you saying that morality does not deter us from making right decisions?
If that is correct, then how come people like the Pope can chose to be so humble while the likes of Trump use any means necessary to reap money off the poor. Who has morals? The Pope or Trump?
I agree with you though that man is inherently corrupt. What Kenya lacks is law enforcement. A regular guy is harassed left and right while the moneyed are left to roam defrauding every person, institution can then get hold of.
You keep making this misleading statement that I don't agree with measures to make it harder to engage in the practice. Or that it is incompatible with punishment. I see them as both useful. One makes it a hog to engage. The other makes it painful once you engage.
You automate Kyalo out of the loop. I get my speeding ticket or court date in the mail. I get that. Payment department processes my fine and I pay. OR there might be a smart-alec in(or in collusion with) the department who knows how to make that disappear. Is there oversight over this alec? Sure it can be built into the system. But oversight is in on the deal too. There is a lot technology can do. But only so much.
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Then we are all good. Every system can be gamed. The idea is to make it harder except for a few determined ones. In kenya we have police dept where corruption is everywhere....so if we make it so a few smart folks...can do this...we will be somewhere.
I cannot think of a better way than technology. It not easy to delete electronic trail.
You keep making this misleading statement that I don't agree with measures to make it harder to engage in the practice. Or that it is incompatible with punishment. I see them as both useful. One makes it a hog to engage. The other makes it painful once you engage.
You automate Kyalo out of the loop. I get my speeding ticket or court date in the mail. I get that. Payment department processes my fine and I pay. OR there might be a smart-alec in(or in collusion with) the department who knows how to make that disappear. Is there oversight over this alec? Sure it can be built into the system. But oversight is in on the deal too. There is a lot technology can do. But only so much.
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In my opinion, corruption has been instutionalized, and that is where the problem lies. Its a cancer that needs immediate radical treatment. The Kyalos are more dangerous than Waigurus because they make goods n services more expensive. Italy had Mafias in 70s which took 20yrs to get rid of. Same with NYC. With Kenya, there is no urgency yet!!! They talk but...thats teh farthest it goes.
There is a popular saying. A poor man has no morals. That is whe re we find ourselves in. Those few lucky ones of us can afford to be moral or ethical but the majority of kenyans have to be literally stopped from stealing or they would steal -consequences be damned. For me morality...wrong or right..is more about consequences of our actions. There is a lot of reward for leading a good honest ethical and moral life...at least in the long term. That is why most folks try to keep on that lane..I included. Crime including corruption may pays in the short term but more often in the long run..you get caught. Of course greed and temptation to steal or cut corners I think is an enduring dillemma people face through their lives.
That is theory. Let get back to the problem. We have a crime here of corruption that is has gotten out of hands. Termie & Moonki think good dictator like leadership who is extremely harsh on corruption will work wonders. How we get there? The details seem sketchy..elect good leaders :).
I don't think we should wait until we have a benevolent dictator who will work his magic. I think making it harder for one to steal public money or engage in corruption is the way to go. Everytime someone get away ...we need to pause and think about how he managed to get in and steal...and worry later about jailing and recovering those assets. This is especially true where corruption has permeate all sectors including the criminal and correction systems that are suppose to deal with punishing and detering such acts.
So on this case or NYS case....we need to think about what could have been done to avert this. Would CBK having being more serious about money laundering have got NYS...yeah...heck in fact they got them and asked treasury what was going on! Would M-pesa guys have caught Kyalo long time ago..yeah...but they got him 5yrs late..and now we can fire, arrest and recover monies from Kyalo and his network.
How can we stop crime from happening. Termie say strong measures will be deterrent. I say putting water tight controls all over will make corruption very hard and risky -and make prosecution a walk in the park.
And these are questions all kenyans (not only GoK) are facing. If you ran any business you know employee theft is big! so folks have all these cctv cameras and name them to stop these guys on the track..because once the money is gone; it mostly likely gone.
Pundit
If I understand you correctly, Are you saying that morality does not deter us from making right decisions?
If that is correct, then how come people like the Pope can chose to be so humble while the likes of Trump use any means necessary to reap money off the poor. Who has morals? The Pope or Trump?
I agree with you though that man is inherently corrupt. What Kenya lacks is law enforcement. A regular guy is harassed left and right while the moneyed are left to roam defrauding every person, institution can then get hold of.
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I also agree with you. Kyalo has a multiplier effect on transport costs. We can build the best rail and roads but for every truck--their owners have to budget say 10k for bribing--so if truck transporting a container was to cost 80k--know 10k is factored--so police corruption is nearly 10% of transport cost! Transport sector is maybe 10% of GDP....so traffic police are costing this country 1% of its GDP every year --in monetary terms that is about 50b kshs.
Goldenberg and Angloleasing have nothing on this.
Then factor all the delays as police stops truck/busess so they can collect their bribes.
The cost for our economy is ENORMOUS.
In my opinion the corruption has been instutionalized, and that is where the problem is. Its a cancer that needs radical treatment. The Kyalos are more dangerous than Waigurus because they make good more expensive. Italy had Mafias in 70s which took 20yrs to get rid of. lSame with NYC. With Kenya, there is no urgency yet!!! They talk but...thats teh farthest it goes.
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Pundit:
Take a look at your signature line:
Daule for Bomet County: Isaac hii pesa si ya mama yako bwana.
That is "discourse" at the highest levels of Kenyan politics. In other, similarly "badly-off" places, people will at least pretend that they aren't stealing or that they are putting public money to good use or ... But right there is the "standard" Kenyan attitude: it's not your mother's money, so f**k off!
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Goldenberg and Angloleasing have nothing on this.
They do. Here's the explanation: the idea that technology will help us catch the thieves, and is therefore the solution, is fundamentally flawed. That is so because the identity of the thieves has never been the real problem, and these two major cases show why. The key element is captured in a single word: impunity, i.e. (standard definition)
exemption from punishment or freedom from the injurious consequences of an action.
As long as people know they can act with impunity, it doesn't matter whether you "catch" them by computer or with paper and pencil; they will continue in their nefarious ways. And why would they not?
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Did you really understand my last post?
Goldenberg and Angloleasing have nothing on this.
They do. Here's the explanation: the idea that technology will help us catch the thieves, and is therefore the solution, is fundamentally flawed. That is so because the identity of the thieves has never been the real problem, and these two major cases show why. The key element is captured in a single word: impunity, i.e. (standard definition)
exemption from punishment or freedom from the injurious consequences of an action.
As long as people know they can act with impunity, it doesn't matter whether you "catch" them by computer or with paper and pencil; they will continue in their nefarious ways. And why would they not?
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Instead of wasting all our scarce resources on fruitlessly trying to eradicate corruption, we should focus on the root cause of our society believing corruption is the best (only?) path to a comfortable life.
That would make more sense.
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Corruption erodes public trust. If your askari was accepting kitu kidogo from strangers to access your water then how can you trust your askari?
In fully fledged Capitalist economies there are fail safe policies and transparency mechanisms via institutions and govt like regulatory bodies eg commissioners, unions etc. given enough resources and govt support at their disposal. They can investigate and impose penalties. An askari in an opulent country requires a security licence and subject to field compliance officers routinely checking their work. If they get caught they can lose their licence and need to pay penalties or even go to jail depending on the nature of their crime. Such things are too overlooked in Kenya because the govt rarely institutionalizes and supports such initiatives. One reason is because since there's so much poverty, some actually want to go to jail to escape poverty.
This is a tricky problem. Kenya's economy can't afford to implement a fully fledged Capitalist ethos with the anti-corruption checks & balances that come with it to make it work. In essence Kenya operates like a welfare State and relies on handouts with a Capitalist front.
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Very interesting. I like the part of them requiring a security license.
Corruption erodes public trust. If your askari was accepting kitu kidogo from strangers to access your water then how can you trust your askari?
In fully fledged Capitalist economies there are fail safe policies and transparency mechanisms via institutions and govt like regulatory bodies eg commissioners, unions etc. given enough resources and govt support at their disposal. They can investigate and impose penalties. An askari in an opulent country requires a security licence and subject to field compliance officers routinely checking their work. If they get caught they can lose their licence and need to pay penalties or even go to jail depending on the nature of their crime. Such things are too overlooked in Kenya because the govt rarely institutionalizes and supports such initiatives. One reason is because since there's so much poverty, some actually want to go to jail to escape poverty.
This is a tricky problem. Kenya's economy can't afford to implement a fully fledged Capitalist ethos with the anti-corruption checks & balances that come with it to make it work. In essence Kenya operates like a welfare State and relies on handouts with a Capitalist front.
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Very interesting. I like the part of them requiring a security license.
Corruption erodes public trust. If your askari was accepting kitu kidogo from strangers to access your water then how can you trust your askari?
In fully fledged Capitalist economies there are fail safe policies and transparency mechanisms via institutions and govt like regulatory bodies eg commissioners, unions etc. given enough resources and govt support at their disposal. They can investigate and impose penalties. An askari in an opulent country requires a security licence and subject to field compliance officers routinely checking their work. If they get caught they can lose their licence and need to pay penalties or even go to jail depending on the nature of their crime. Such things are too overlooked in Kenya because the govt rarely institutionalizes and supports such initiatives. One reason is because since there's so much poverty, some actually want to go to jail to escape poverty.
This is a tricky problem. Kenya's economy can't afford to implement a fully fledged Capitalist ethos with the anti-corruption checks & balances that come with it to make it work. In essence Kenya operates like a welfare State and relies on handouts with a Capitalist front.
Uhuru just signed a new law:
[New private security industry Act raises expenses of hiring guards for consumers
The cost of hiring private guards is set to rise as private security firms pass on the additional expenses of complying with a law new signed by President Uhuru Kenyatta last month.
The Private Security Industry Regulation Act that received a presidential assent late last month seeks to raise welfare and service delivery standards of private security guards.
Apart from providing a framework for cooperation between private security companies and the national security organs, the new law calls for the registration of all security firms, training of its personnel and proper remuneration for all private security guards.
Under the law, an agency called the Private Security Regulatory Authority (PSRA) will be set up to set standards, create an enforcing mechanism, improve personnel welfare and offer redress from unscrupulous players.
“The good thing is that this law will raise quality of service delivery, give government control over private security operations and ensure guards are properly paid,” said Consumers Federation of Kenya secretary-general Stephen Mutoro.
“But good things come with compliance cost. The consumer must prepare to pay more to hire private guards while most of small firms will have to shut down because they will not be able to meet new registration conditions.”
At the moment, most security firms only require physical fitness, basic English and willingness to take a monthly income of about Sh7,500 a month as conditions for hiring. Most of the cases, the pay is hardly regular.
Under the new law, the PSRA is expected to set new terms and conditions for hiring and vetting, significantly cutting the time it takes to register a private security firm from six months at the moment.
The Act also provides for guidelines for foreign ownership and control of business operating as a security service provider.
“Control and monitoring by PSRA is important because in the past, private guards have colluded with criminals to map targets,” said Mr Mutoro.
The law signed by President Kenyatta does not have the controversial section that had initially proposed to allow firms to provide their guards with a firearm at will.
http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/private-security-industry-Act-raises-expenses-of-hiring-guards/-/539546/3228164/-/11ikdr5/-/index.html
So what happens now as the cost for business and households increase?
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The private security act is long overdue. This is one of the most vibrant sector now. I think they employ hundrends thousands now.
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Do you really believe what you just said?
Will you advocate for a soccer game with no referee?
If you think theres chaos now, wait till you see what happens when such is implemented.
Instead of wasting all our scarce resources on fruitlessly trying to eradicate corruption, we should focus on the root cause of our society believing corruption is the best (only?) path to a comfortable life.
That would make more sense.
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Do you really believe what you just said?
Will you advocate for a soccer game with no referee?
If you think theres chaos now, wait till you see what happens when such is implemented.
Using your soccer game analogy, let me put it this way: the pitch is bumpy and strewn with boulders. Players keep falling down while trying to play soccer. So what would you do: devise systems to keep them from falling down or fix the bloody pitch?
The root cause is what has to be sorted out, not the symptoms.
And yes, I do believe what I said. Over 30 years of fruitlessly "fighting" corruption with ever more and more resources being needlessly wasted (i.e. being diverted from the economy) should show us how silly it has been.
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Get back up. Never give up.
Nations were born out of blood, sweat and tears on the backs of those toiling under the banner of humanity and integrous ideals.
Corruption is a choice and a means to an end for cowards.
Get back out on that bloody field Empedocles.
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Here is the real story of cops making transport slow and expensive...and this why we need SGR...
http://www.nation.co.ke/lifestyle/lifestyle/Mombasa-to-Kigali-long-distance-truck-drivers-/-/1214/3232800/-/15rf82v/-/index.html
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The saddest thing is that this is institutionalized, can't do anything about it. accept it as part of business.
Here is the real story of cops making transport slow and expensive...and this why we need SGR...
http://www.nation.co.ke/lifestyle/lifestyle/Mombasa-to-Kigali-long-distance-truck-drivers-/-/1214/3232800/-/15rf82v/-/index.html
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I am in the wrong profession. Absolutely, am convinced.
When a regular police officer makes 100milliiom it makes me think....
Sad thing is he gets to keep it even though it illegit money.
http://www.nation.co.ke/news/Traffic-officer-transacted-over-Sh100m-in-five-years/-/1056/3220766/-/139yx08/-/index.html