Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Globalcitizen12 on January 14, 2016, 02:46:50 AM
-
If CORD proves that 140 Billion was stolen will you change your vote?
-
You are kidding, right?
You don't leave the mafia...
If CORD proves that 140 Billion was stolen will you change your vote?
-
Is that what it's all about? But yeah stealing 140b if proven is going to erode Jubilee support base. The problem...CORD and Raila are running on the empty..making wild allegations.
-
It doesn't change a thing as far as the jubilant goes. The rank and file are happy as long as the duo at the top makes them feel validated as members of the ruling tribes.
-
These are the names behind Eurobond acting for and on behalf of Uhuru Kenyatta and William Ruto
1. Joseph Kinyua - Chief of Staff, Statehouse
2. Kamau Thuge - PS, Treasury
3. Barnard Ndungu - Account General, Treasury 4. Mohamed Nyaoga - Chairman, CBK
5. Njuguna Ndungu - Former CBK Governor
6. John Birech
6. Moses Muthui - CBK
7. Henry Rotich - CS, Treasury
7. Patrick Kamau - Treasury
-
Sounds lame. Just like Raila just concluded press statement.
These are the names behind Eurobond acting for and on behalf of Uhuru Kenyatta and William Ruto
1. Joseph Kinyua - Chief of Staff, Statehouse
2. Kamau Thuge - PS, Treasury
3. Barnard Ndungu - Account General, Treasury 4. Mohamed Nyaoga - Chairman, CBK
5. Njuguna Ndungu - Former CBK Governor
6. John Birech
6. Moses Muthui - CBK
7. Henry Rotich - CS, Treasury
7. Patrick Kamau - Treasury
-
so is that money safe? I am not sure on this issue because I am not willing to do the forensic work required and I am not sure what Raila has in terms of evidence
-
Raila is no fool to come out open with the names if nothing is cooking.This guy has good networks both within the govt inner circles and internationally.Rememner the Artur brothers saga,NYS saga.He usually ends up with the last laugh.
As usual,i expect the entire jubilee brigade led by Dualle,Murkomen,Kindiki to come out fighting and name calling,he is going to be called all manner of names,he has set the political agenda for next one month.afrocinema continues.
-
We will keep waiting. As of now..he is running on empty. The number of time Raila has cried wolf is far more than few times he has come up with anything substantial.
Raila is no fool to come out open with the names if nothing is cooking.This guy has good networks both within the govt inner circles and internationally.Rememner the Artur brothers saga,NYS saga.He usually ends up with the last laugh.
As usual,i expect the entire jubilee brigade led by Dualle,Murkomen,Kindiki to come out fighting and name calling,he is going to be called all manner of names,he has set the political agenda for next one month.afrocinema continues.
-
Institution charged with making sure the money is safe..include two Raila appointees (Odhiambo -Budget Controller-and Auditor General Ouko) have given it clean bill of health. No money has been lost. When we have evidence of lost of money...then we will accept.
so is that money safe? I am not sure on this issue because I am not willing to do the forensic work required and I am not sure what Raila has in terms of evidence
-
It will make no difference whether the money is lost or not,we are soo much enslaved in our tribal cocoons.Raila will just continue looking bad before kikuyus and kalenjins and savior to his supporters,period.
-
Interesting analysis by someone who attended this morning's briefing:
Foreign Financial Journalists Skeptical About Kenya’s Opposition Leader Odinga Report On Eurobond
“Today, no modern banking system has capacity to launder KSh 140bn in a matter of months without trace, naming the entire Fianance Ministry top brass whose role is to manage country fiscal matters besides alleging higly reputable and thoroughly scrutinized international financial institutions like Citi-Bank and JP Morgan & Federal Reserve Bank of NewYork were involved in fraud is ridiculous!“.
Money Markets Analysts and experts in economic intelligence faults Kenya’s government for allowing politics and propaganda by opposition leaders citing opposition leader Raila Odinga as a threat to the country’s economy, specifically the financial/stocks market.
In reaction to Odinga’s 4-month long anti-Eurobond rhetoric, some members of the Foreign Journalists Association in East Africa (FCAEA), Raila Odinga and his consultants did not present any evidence/proof that the Eurobond money was stolen. “By claiming the transactions aren’t authentic was laughable, all we did was holding breaths for proof of theft as promised by Raila Odinga”
“Constant hyping and misreporting about such a valuable investment is a shame and threatens the investment in the markets. The people named by the former Premier are Government of Kenya’s officials tasked with management of the Finance Ministry, hence naming them was quite nonsensical. The hired consusltant account of the money trail targeting big corporations such as Citi-Bank and JP Morgan & Federal Reserve Bank of NewYork is also malicious and from our persepctive, a fishing expedtion.”
“If Raila Odinga doesn’t show evidence of this alleged theft today, it will be a hit to his credibility” another FCAEA member argued. “It is suspect what the motive of citing all finance ministry top chiefs is and why the onslaught on such a sensitive investment. It is likely Odinga wants the bond to lose value thus ensure the government won’t have funds to finance key projects it hopes to complete before the elections, and, use that to gain political mileage. All leads to the motive read economic sabotage!”
http://www.intelligencebriefs.com/foreign-financial-journalists-skeptical-about-kenyas-opposition-leader-odinga-report-on-eurobond/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork
-
I don't know whether Sh. 140 billion was stolen or not. But as far as I can tell, "Intelligence Briefs" consists of two guys operating out of a small office in Nairobi who simply make up stuff, according to who is paying, and claim it is "intelligence" from "sources". Because of the name they have given themselves, people tend to swallow whole whatever they dish up.
Here, we note the following:
* The quoted sentences are so badly structured (bordering on nonsensical) that one wonders if the "inventor" actually took the time to even read them, and it is hard to imagine that they would come from a major organization. E.g., what on earth does this mean:
“By claiming the transactions aren’t authentic was laughable, all we did was holding breaths for proof of theft as promised by Raila Odinga”
* Is there really something called "Foreign Journalists Association in East Africa"? The closest thing I know of is the "Foreign Correspondents' Association of East Africa".
* Whether it is the "Foreign Journalists Association in East Africa" or the ""Foreign Correspondents' Association of East Africa", is there any evidence (other than what has been dished by the two guys) that the organization made such statements? Where?
* We are also told that
Money Markets Analysts and experts in economic intelligence faults Kenya’s government for allowing politics and propaganda by opposition leaders citing opposition leader Raila Odinga as a threat to the country’s economy, specifically the financial/stocks market.
Who are these "Money Markets Analysts and experts in economic intelligence", and where have they done the "faulting"?
* Whoever talked to these "analysts and experts" apparently found them in a River-Road bar. What sort of expert economic analysis is this:
It is likely Odinga wants the bond to lose value thus ensure the government won’t have funds to finance key projects it hopes to complete before the elections, and, use that to gain political mileage. All leads to the motive read economic sabotage!”
How would the government be losing funds on the bond before the elections? The one thing everyone agrees on is that the money has already been handed over! The fact that the yields may change---and they have been changing---doesn't mean the money goes back or is no longer there. The changes in yield affect only those who are buying the bonds on the secondary market.
-
Sounds lame. Just like Raila just concluded press statement.
These are the names behind Eurobond acting for and on behalf of Uhuru Kenyatta and William Ruto
1. Joseph Kinyua - Chief of Staff, Statehouse
2. Kamau Thuge - PS, Treasury
3. Barnard Ndungu - Account General, Treasury 4. Mohamed Nyaoga - Chairman, CBK
5. Njuguna Ndungu - Former CBK Governor
6. John Birech
6. Moses Muthui - CBK
7. Henry Rotich - CS, Treasury
7. Patrick Kamau - Treasury
If indeed they are involved and haven't been fired, you have to rope in kamwana as an accomplice at the very least. The main culprit at worst.
Even if Raila is right and we now have the faces in the scandal. As long as the issue remains in the jurisdiction of kienyeji solutions, the relevant question is so what? They might as well pocket the whole eurobond without consequences.
His best bet would be to internationalize the scandal in such a way as to involve jurisdictions which frown upon such things.
-
I agree with Intelligence "two guys" report. This is way beyond Raila pay grade. The worst part is that he is killing Kenya prospect of going for Eurobond leaving kenya gov to borrow locally which only serves to crowd private lending and make sure banks continue making 100% profit year in year for last 30yrs.
Eurobond is not a fish market. Those things are floated in international markets and arranged by some of the best banks in the world supervised thoroughly. This is not anglo leasing where some dodgy due sell dodgy promisory notes...these are bonds floated in regulated debt markets.
This is a very sick joke taken too far. Africa was starting to turn the corner as far as international debt market was concerned and didn't have to depend anymore on the benevolence of IMF or rich countries..but their credit worthiness to tap into billions that are out there.
This is akin to joke Raila & Nyongo made when they claimed Safaricom was sold cheaply at 6. Bloody irritating stupidity. Raila need to find someone who understand modern economics for him to be taken seriously.
Watching the interview was pretty depressing affair...at least Uhuru and Ruto can navigate modern economics ...Raila should invest in more reading.
Now if investors who bought our 2b get to here these kinds of shenagians...they'll dump those bonds..and next time we want to borrow..we will pay heavily.
-
Those things are floated in international markets and arranged by some of the best banks in the world supervised thoroughly.
The banks "supervise" only the process of getting money. Their involvement does not extend to how it is spent; that is up to Kenya's Treasury, etc.
Africa was starting to turn the corner as far as international debt market was concerned and didn't have to depend anymore on the benevolence of IMF or rich countries.
World Bank and IMF data do not support this claim.
-
Well considering the sensitivity of debt market and how many years we have tried to do this, Raila should curb his irresponsible talk until he has evidence that treasury stole the money. At end of the day the loser here is kenya. We cannot go back to borrow.
Eurobond in my view should be floated nearly every year...unless fx risk are that serious..considering kenya gov easily borrows more than Eurobond every yr.As Raila speaks...treasury probably borrowed 30B this month...and annually borrows equivalent of Eurobond 2-3B usd..all the money going to fatten our Kenyan bankers..with gov getting hit 8-12% and the Raia get deposit of 3-4%..
Bring the evidence...or shut up
The floating of Eurobond is for me a watershed moment for kenya. We shouldn't screw it up. We can easily have the ability to borrow even 10-20B usd for very little interest like most countries outside Africa are doing. This is like the holy grail for any gov. Gov can now stop thinking about how to get money but how to invest that money by executing projects that can turn the fortunes of the country around.
The banks "supervise" only the process of getting money. Their involvement does not extend to how it is spent; that is up to Kenya's Treasury, etc.
-
Moon Ki,
You went after the messenger, not the message. The issue is RAO made serious allegations and I'm interested in seeing if he presented the proof.
So, answer these questions of you think RAO got everything 101% right and the backroom analysts are bogus:
1. Laundering $1b from the named banks. You seriously think it's possible to hide $1B from the bond?
2. RAO promised to name the culprits who ate the money. Did he?
Here's another "backroom" journalist who was also at the briefing contesting that RAO did not offer anything substantial:
.@RailaOdinga consultant Alexander Owino concludes presentation. Mr Odinga back on. No proof on #eurobond $ stolen presented to @FCAEA
8:19 AM - 14 Jan 2016
Invalid Tweet ID?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
-
Moon Ki,
So, answer these questions of you think RAO got everything 101% right and the backroom analysts are bogus:
For some strange reason, you seem to assume that questioning your two "intelligence" guys means that I agree with Raila. I can't imagine what gave you that idea. Please read my comments again. Also, who are these analysts, and where can I read their analyses? (Please do not refer me to the two "intelligence" guys or Twitter.)
1. Laundering $1b from the named banks. You seriously think it's possible to hide $1B from the bond?
The named banks are, I take it, Citi-Bank and JP Morgan & Federal Reserve Bank of New York.
First: There seems to be the notion that huge, "reputable" banks cannot be involved in money laundering and other similar mischief. That is not correct. Example: in the last 3 years or so, HSBC (bigger than Citibank and JP Morgan) has paid something like $2 billion in fines (USA, Switzerland, ...) as a penalty for such activities. (Note that this is not the same as saying that the banks above have been engaged in Eurobond mischief.)
Second: Has the money has been sitting in those banks all the time? From what I understand (via what Rotich said), part of the money was used to pay a US$ syndicated loan and the rest (most of it) was transferred to CBK and then dished out to ministries, for "development projects". So it seems to me that even if the trail starts with the "named banks", as indeed it should and must, the real place anyone ought to be looking is CBK and elsewhere in Kenya.
Is it possible to "hide $1B from the bond"? I am happy to try answering that question, with respect to any bank. But would you please first tell me what you mean by "hide"?
2. RAO promised to name the culprits who ate the money. Did he?
I understand that he gave some names. Are they of the culprits who ate the money? I have no idea. I don't even know if any money was eaten. (Note that that is not the same as stating a belief that no money was eaten.) What I definitely know about: Kenya and its history, Kenyans, corruption, large-scale theft from public coffers.
Here's another "backroom" journalist who was also at the briefing contesting that RAO did not offer anything substantial:
.@RailaOdinga consultant Alexander Owino concludes presentation. Mr Odinga back on. No proof on #eurobond $ stolen presented to @FCAEA
8:19 AM - 14 Jan 2016
I have no doubt that there are quite a few journalists, analysts, "intelligence experts", etc. who will go along with that. But I'm not sure that their "tweets" necessarily tell us much. What I take seriously is the sort of stuff that Ndii has written; I have yet to see a solid counter to his reasoning.
I have also read all of the relevant tweets by Matina Stevis and then made enquiries regarding her position w.r.t. the FCAEA. As far as I can tell:
* She is just one member of the organization and does not "speak" for it.
* She is not responsible for any of the quotations from the two "intelligence" guys.
-
Eurobond in my view should be floated nearly every year...unless fx risk are that serious..considering kenya gov easily borrows more than Eurobond every yr.As Raila speaks...treasury probably borrowed 30B this month...and annually borrows equivalent of Eurobond 2-3B usd..all the money going to fatten our Kenyan bankers..with gov getting hit 8-12% and the Raia get deposit of 3-4%..
If my recollection is correct, the Eurobond was issued at an interest rate of about 6.8%. That's hardly cheap, but what constitutes "cheap" can be argued about. Still, the money will go to "fatten" foreigners. Is that better that "fattening" Kenyans? I don't know.
More important: Considering the vagaries of exchange rates, I would not equate the borrowing of dollars with the borrowing of the "equivalent", although the latter term obviously invites the equation. (One cannot predict what will happen with exchange rates, but on current trends the Eurobond is likely to be more costly than what people had in mind when it was issued.)
We can easily have the ability to borrow even 10-20B usd for very little interest like most countries outside Africa are doing.
On the secondary market, yields on that Kenyan Eurobond have (when I last looked) have gone to over 9%. Among other things, that suggests that if Kenya were to now borrow by such means, it would be much more costly.
The other things to keep in mind are that:
* All those foreign investors are buying such bonds (Kenya and elsewhere in Africa) because they currently offer better returns than in their own countries. For low returns (which translates into lower interest rates for the borrower), there is little incentive for such investment.
* With the endless mayhem, corruption, etc., the "risk" in Africa is always high. Given a choice between lending at 3% to Africa and lending at the same rate to one of their own, investors will make the logical choice.
All in all, as long as things continue to be the way they are on The Beloved Continent, I don't see any low-cost commercial borrowing happening any time soon. (Side-note: People sometimes think that Kung Fu, our "great helper", lends us money at cheap rates. Set aside the interest on such loans and look at the insurance rates!)
-
Moon Ki,
Good that you brought up Ndii's brilliant articles.
I agree, something stinks to high hell with the Eurobond but I doubt RAO would unleash the information he really has.
I personally believe RAO is full of it (as usual) but his cannot bring himself to pinpoint exactly how and to whom the bucks went to.
Why?
Simple; he'll bring down the criminal economy we're unfortunately living in which he himself is 101% involved in (see Mutunga's interview..somewhere here in the forum).
This whole "ati I'll give the names" is pure showmanship, noting more, nothing less.
Campaigning for 2017 and dividing the country, something CORD and Jubilee both excel at.
-
I agree, something stinks to high hell with the Eurobond but I doubt RAO would unleash the information he really has.
A little story: Do you know much about quail? I understand that quail-farming is (was?) a "big" business in Kenya. Foodwise, I have my doubts on such activity: most people who love quail are into it for the wild version; the "farmed" version comes nowhere near that. I know this because I have extensively eaten both versions---my grandmother made the most amazing quail dishes whenever---and have pretty much given up on the latter.
But that is not the little story, which is this:
My grandmother used to catch quail by setting traps, and whenever we visited we'd go take a look at those. Once in a while, some bird would hear the cries of those caught in the traps and wander over there. As soon as humans approached off they'd go. But quail have limited flying ability, so we could chase a bird around until it stopped and went into some bush. In such a situation, it was never necessary to know exactly where the bird was; it sufficed to know that it was "in there, somewhere". Literally beating about the bush (with a big stick) would bring it to the fore, and supper would be had.
-
I agree, something stinks to high hell with the Eurobond but I doubt RAO would unleash the information he really has.
A little story: I understand that quail-farming is (was?) a "big" business in Kenya. Foodwise, I have my doubts on such activity: most people who love quail are into it for the wild version; the "farmed" version comes nowhere near that. I know this because I have extensively eaten both versions---my grandmother made the most amazing quail dishes whenever---and have pretty much given up on the latter.
But that is not the little story, which is this:
My grandmother used to catch quail by setting traps, and whenever we visited we'd go take a look. Once in a while, some bird would hear the cries of those caught in the traps and wander over there. As soon as humans approached off they'd go. But quail have limited flying ability, so we could chase them around until they stopped and went into some bush. In such a situation, it was never necessary to know exactly where the bird was; it sufficed to know that it was "in there, somewhere". Literally beating about the bush would bring it to the fore, and supper would be had.
Interesting.
If the government did the right thing with the eurobond, should they be able to readily prove all the movement of the money from all the involved institutions? I think so. They should be able to produce all official documents with the transactions.
If they are able to produce documentary evidence of the money trail from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, Raila would have to eat humble pie. Why don't they make him eat humble pie?
-
When Raila railed against NYS he was termed a lunatic. Same thing going on now. I believe they bought apartments in Manhattan. Coincidentally, the USA treasury dept started looking into these deals today. Money laundering.
-
If they are able to produce documentary evidence of the money trail from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, Raila would have to eat humble pie. Why don't they make him eat humble pie?
Good question.
-
When Raila railed against NYS he was termed a lunatic. Same thing going on now. I believe they bought apartments in Manhattan. Coincidentally, the USA treasury dept started looking into these deals today. Money laundering.
Parkerpen,
Would you have a source for this?
Moon Ki,
Apt comparison. The whole problem I have with this Eurobond issue is the government has not shown how the money was used neither has RAO shown that it was stolen.
Who's fooling who?
-
Treasury has answered all the questions as far as movement of money. Budget Controller (independent office manned by Raila's relative Ms Odhiambo) has okayed Eurobond. She confirmed reciepts and on ward expenditure of the same. The Auditor General has given it clean bill of health. And so has EACC.
What more questions? The arranger of EuroBond and the banks don't have to answer every fishing expedition.
-
Treasury has answered all the questions as far as movement of money. Budget Controller (independent office manned by Raila's relative Ms Odhiambo) has okayed Eurobond. She confirmed reciepts and on ward expenditure of the same. The Auditor General has given it clean bill of health. And so has EACC.
What more questions? The arranger of EuroBond and the banks don't have to answer every fishing expedition.
Let's see if international investors are convinced as the government wants more:
Kenya tests international appetite for new debt sale
January 14, 2016 5:23 pm
Kenya is gauging international appetite for new sovereign bonds as investors warn that weakening emerging markets will push the country’s borrowing rate above 10 per cent.
Henry Rotich, Kenya’s finance minister, said the country was planning an international roadshow for new long-dated bonds, while also exploring alternative means of raising external budget support.
These could include a soft loan from the China Development Bank, Islamic financing, export credit arrangements and the sale of debt denominated in Japanese yen, known as samurai bonds.
“We just want to expand our menu,” Mr Rotich told the Financial Times in an interview. “Which one to pick depends on how quick we can pick one.”
Kenya’s announcement follows news that Nigeria and Mongolia are also planning to issue debt despite dwindling investor appetite for bonds sold by developing countries. Falling bond prices mean countries that paid 5 or 6 per cent to borrow on markets two years ago now face rates of 10 per cent.
“Kenya is lucky that it can still issue,” said Kevin Daly at Aberdeen Asset Management. “Ghana and Zambia have been shut out of markets by prohibitively high yields. For Kenya, issuance will be challenging but the last bond sale did well and there is likely still appetite.”
Prices for the country’s five- and 10-year bonds have dropped sharply since last year, pushing the yield on Kenya’s 2024 bond from 5.97 per cent in April to 9.45 per cent.
Kenya hopes to boost its standing with international investors by securing an extension of standby facilities from the International Monetary Fund before holding a bond roadshow in February or March.
The roadshow “is basically to meet investors and gauge appetite for our longer-term bonds”, said Mr Rotich. “If we were to issue another eurobond, could we look at 15 years, 20 years, I’ve seen countries that have done 30 years.”
As a net oil importer, Kenya has benefited from the slump in oil prices and the government expects growth to reach 5.8 per cent for 2015, and 6.1 per cent in 2016.
However the country’s debt burden has grown to equal 56 per cent of GDP, a high level for EMs and the budget deficit target for 2015-16 is 8.7 per cent. To limit the pressures, Kenya plans to diversify its sources of credit.
Mr Rotich said he was in discussions with the China Development Bank for a budget support loan of $600m at a rate of about 3.65 per cent above the London interbank offered rate (Libor).
Kenya is also scheduled to host an Islamic financing conference next month, although Mr Rotich said it would take up to two years to issue any sukuk (Islamic bond) because the country’s banking law would first have to be amended.
East Africa’s largest economy was one of the most successful participants in the recent EM credit boom, breaking records in 2014 for the biggest sovereign bond debut by an African country.
About $600m of the $2bn money raised was used to pay off a syndicated loan while the remainder was mostly spent on development infrastructure projects such as roads, rural electrification and health projects.
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/069698d0-babc-11e5-b151-8e15c9a029fb.html
-
Thats the way to go. Exogenous risks (fxs & interest rates) notwithstanding.. The problem with borrowing locally for me apart from fattening local banks who don't transfer the 8-12% to depositors; is the fact that bankers here should concentrate more on lending to private business, households and such....not lending gov. GoK has ability to borrow money from external markets. It should explore those avenues..and cut off domestic borrowing. That will leave banks with no other avenue but to lend and lend more to me and you.
-
Treasury has answered all the questions as far as movement of money. Budget Controller (independent office manned by Raila's relative Ms Odhiambo) has okayed Eurobond. She confirmed reciepts and on ward expenditure of the same. The Auditor General has given it clean bill of health. And so has EACC.
What more questions? The arranger of EuroBond and the banks don't have to answer every fishing expedition.
The banks don't have to answer or even acknowledge any question from Raila. I believe the same applies to Henry Rotich.
What might one find curious or downright suspicious? That the treasury appears to have no problem providing such documentary evidence for all the movements for all the other transactions.
In that event, why consider requests for similar documentation for the trail from Federal Reserve Bank fishing? Given the stakes, why not just dump these documents online or in the newspapers and shut Raila up?
-
Raila was invited by Rotich to Treasury to examine the books. He derided Rotich and decline. I think heavy redaction would have to be done for those document to be dumped online. You're talking confidential information containing signatures and all sort of details that would make it easy for fraudsters out there.
That is why we have office in constitution mandated to do this. Budget Controller is one....she okays everything..receipt and expenditure...and then post -fact..you have Auditor General allowed to go and ask audit questions.
Raila is just on fishing expedition....and the best they could do in the press conference..is to bring an Alex Owino who claims Jp Morgan South Africa cannot transfer 1B USD? mmmm...really..there are companies in kenya with revenue exceeding that... or even the more laughable that sijui Citi Bank document titled San Jose Or something like that..is not as good as Citi Bank NY...eti san jose would normally dela with cattle :)
In that event, why consider requests for similar documentation for the trail from Federal Reserve Bank fishing? Given the stakes, why not just dump these documents online or in the newspapers and shut Raila up?
-
Raila was invited by Rotich to Treasury to examine the books. He derided Rotich and decline. I think heavy redaction would have to be done for those document to be dumped online. You're talking confidential information containing signatures and all sort of details that would make it easy for fraudsters out there.
That is why we have office in constitution mandated to do this. Budget Controller is one....she okays everything..receipt and expenditure...and then post -fact..you have Auditor General allowed to go and ask audit questions.
Raila is just on fishing expedition....and the best they could do in the press conference..is to bring an Alex Owino who claims Jp Morgan South Africa cannot transfer 1B USD? mmmm...really..there are companies in kenya with revenue exceeding that... or even the more laughable that sijui Citi Bank document titled San Jose Or something like that..is not as good as Citi Bank NY...eti san jose would normally dela with cattle :)
In that event, why consider requests for similar documentation for the trail from Federal Reserve Bank fishing? Given the stakes, why not just dump these documents online or in the newspapers and shut Raila up?
That would be easier to believe if the treasury had not already shared similar documents for all the other eurobond transactions.
You say they have to redact some information. What is there to redact is infact the burning question.
If they had failed to release any documentation for all the transactions, it would actually be less suspicious.
Raila raises a legitimate point, from a neutral perspective. Showing the documentation seems like a straightforward way to put his claim to sleep. Unless the documentation is incriminating.
-
Here, again, is a guy who is giving concrete figures and a seemingly thought-out analysis and not just waving his hands all over the place.
http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/The-anatomy-of-a-grand-heist/-/440808/3035238/-/l1er9dz/-/index.html
It would help if someone could go over all this and say "this one is right" and "this one is wrong".
-
Here, again, is a guy who is giving concrete figures and a seemingly thought-out analysis and not just waving his hands all over the place.
http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/The-anatomy-of-a-grand-heist/-/440808/3035238/-/l1er9dz/-/index.html
It would help if someone could go over all this and say "this one is right" and "this one is wrong".
I think this comment from the linked Ndii article sums it up brilliantly:
I have two masters degrees (albeit in health-related fields) and I cannot, for the life of me, figure out where the truth in this matter lies. Unlike most Kenyans, I don't have a dog in this fight- I'm equally sceptical of both sides of the political divide. I would support calls for a forensic audit of the Eurobond affair by a reputable international firm to settle the matter one and for all
-
CBK could authoritatively clear the air, one way or another, regarding the movement of the funds into the consolidated fund. No? They have maintained a studious silence.
More ominously, the treasury has not asked them to furnish it with documentation that should easily stop the damage "Raila is doing" to the economy. Why?
Parliamentarians aren't worth a dingo's kidneys in this mess.
-
Just read another article of Dr Ndii and response to by Treasury. I think Dr Ndii has clearly lost it. There is no scandal here folks. Look for something else.
Here, again, is a guy who is giving concrete figures and a seemingly thought-out analysis and not just waving his hands all over the place.
http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/The-anatomy-of-a-grand-heist/-/440808/3035238/-/l1er9dz/-/index.html
It would help if someone could go over all this and say "this one is right" and "this one is wrong".
-
Just read another article of Dr Ndii and response to by Treasury. I think Dr Ndii has clearly lost it. There is no scandal here folks. Look for something else.
Here, again, is a guy who is giving concrete figures and a seemingly thought-out analysis and not just waving his hands all over the place.
http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/The-anatomy-of-a-grand-heist/-/440808/3035238/-/l1er9dz/-/index.html (http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/The-anatomy-of-a-grand-heist/-/440808/3035238/-/l1er9dz/-/index.html)
It would help if someone could go over all this and say "this one is right" and "this one is wrong".
Why do you think he has lost it?
There might well be no scandal as you say. But the treasury responses are not helping in that direction. They seem to be making a special effort to keep it as murky as possible.
-
Just read another article of Dr Ndii and response to by Treasury. I think Dr Ndii has clearly lost it. There is no scandal here folks. Look for something else.
Here, again, is a guy who is giving concrete figures and a seemingly thought-out analysis and not just waving his hands all over the place.
http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/The-anatomy-of-a-grand-heist/-/440808/3035238/-/l1er9dz/-/index.html
It would help if someone could go over all this and say "this one is right" and "this one is wrong".
-
His theory is completely implausible. That he why he is going into very laughable conspiracy theories. Ohoo jubilee has shared the lot 50-50. Ohoo Jubilee in cahoot with IMF & WB to hide the heist.
Treasury has explained all that needed explaining. Budget controller are okay with it. The same with Auditor General.
Maybe the next time we should talk about this is when say PAC/PIC bring up something credible.
Not conspiracy theories.
Why do you think he has lost it?
There might well be no scandal as you say. But the treasury responses are not helping in that direction. They seem to be making a special effort to keep it as murky as possible.
-
List will be made official after families are notified by kdf
http://www.mwakilishi.com/content/articles/2016/01/17/mwathethe-al-shabaab-using-kdf-soldiers-as-human-shields.html
-
Just read another article of Dr Ndii and response to by Treasury. I think Dr Ndii has clearly lost it. There is no scandal here folks. Look for something else.
Here, again, is a guy who is giving concrete figures and a seemingly thought-out analysis and not just waving his hands all over the place.
http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/The-anatomy-of-a-grand-heist/-/440808/3035238/-/l1er9dz/-/index.html (http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/The-anatomy-of-a-grand-heist/-/440808/3035238/-/l1er9dz/-/index.html)
It would help if someone could go over all this and say "this one is right" and "this one is wrong".
Other than a few typos, it's not easy to counter his points. The difference between Ndii and Raila is that Ndii believes all the money was brought into the country. And then stolen in the normal way. The scandal was scattered around, so to speak. Which makes it harder to put a finger on. It also keeps it firmly within the kienyeji domain.
Raila is more concerned with the $999 million that was treated slightly differently from the rest of the monies; this might not necessarily be a huge deal, even if it's not clear why the transactions seemed to be handled in such a divergent manner.
-
Raila is more concerned with the $999 million that was treated slightly differently from the rest of the monies; this might not necessarily be a huge deal, even if it's not clear why the transactions seemed to be handled in such a divergent manner.
Yes, there are problems there. Actually there are lies and all sorts of fiddling going on. By way of example, I shall point out one outright lie that can be seen by anyone with a basic ability to read plain English.
...
A major problem with Treasury's "explanations" is that they keep moving figures from one column to another, one row to another, this year or that year, between foreign and domestic .... Once in while someone slips and drags in things that are beyond their control to change. These provide a sort of "solid" basis from which to view some aspects of the circus.
...
One of the things Ndii notes in his article is the matter of the "domestic borrowing" of Sh. 140b. The money in question is Eurobond money, so it is, even by manamba understanding, not domestic. Treasury keeps coming up with different explanations (but we need not get into those). Let's take the latest, which you can find in the report entitled
"RESPONSE TO ALLEGATIONS THAT KSH 140 BILLION OF THE EUROBOND MONEY IS MISSING"
here: http://www.treasury.go.ke/downloads/category/24-press-releases
We are told there (page 2) that:
Indeed the IMF’s most recent report treats the Eurobond deposits are part of domestic financing, exactly how it is treated in the BROP (see page 27 of the IMF report on Kenya September 2015—www.imf.org).
(Yes, there is plenty of 8-4-4 writing in these reports, but let's ignore that aspect.)
Alright. There's Treasury with yet another "new-and-improved explanation". A specific page of a specific report by the great International Monetary Fund.
The only problem with this new-and-improved is that the said page of said IMF report clearly puts all* Eurobond money under "foreign financing":
https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2015/cr15269.pdf
What is the lie in aid of?
(Note to anyone tempted to explain away the lie: I've already considered all the obvious ones, so please put some effort into it.)
*Pre-Tap
-
Treasury has explained all that needed explaining. Budget controller are okay with it. The same with Auditor General.
I think I missed them. Which Auditor-General statements/reports do you have in mind?
-
I am thinking the money was part of 2013/2014 and 2015 and Auditor General has some report somewhere definitely.
I think I missed them. Which Auditor-General statements/reports do you have in mind?
-
The long and short is clear. Eurobond (right from the prospectus) was borrowed principally for BUDGET SUPPORT..not for any specific project. And gov explained long before that EUROBOND was specifically meant to reduce domestic borrowing and hopefully lower interest rate by forcing banks to lending to folks.
Raila is more concerned with the $999 million that was treated slightly differently from the rest of the monies; this might not necessarily be a huge deal, even if it's not clear why the transactions seemed to be handled in such a divergent manner.
Yes, there are problems there. Actually there are lies and all sorts of fiddling going on. By way of example, I shall point out one outright lie that can be seen by anyone with a basic ability to read plain English.
...
A major problem with Treasury's "explanations" is that they keep moving figures from one column to another, one row to another, this year or that year, between foreign and domestic .... Once in while someone slips and drags in things that are beyond their control to change. These provide a sort of "solid" basis from which to view some aspects of the circus.
...
One of the things Ndii notes in his article is the matter of the "domestic borrowing" of Sh. 140b. The money in question is Eurobond money, so it is, even by manamba understanding, not domestic. Treasury keeps coming up with different explanations (but we need not get into those). Let's take the latest, which you can find in the report entitled
"RESPONSE TO ALLEGATIONS THAT KSH 140 BILLION OF THE EUROBOND MONEY IS MISSING"
here: http://www.treasury.go.ke/downloads/category/24-press-releases
We are told there (page 2) that:
Indeed the IMF’s most recent report treats the Eurobond deposits are part of domestic financing, exactly how it is treated in the BROP (see page 27 of the IMF report on Kenya September 2015—www.imf.org).
(Yes, there is plenty of 8-4-4 writing in these reports, but let's ignore that aspect.)
Alright. There's Treasury with yet another "new-and-improved explanation". A specific page of a specific report by the great International Monetary Fund.
The only problem with this new-and-improved is that the said page of said IMF report clearly puts all* Eurobond money under "foreign financing":
https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2015/cr15269.pdf
What is the lie in aid of?
(Note to anyone tempted to explain away the lie: I've already considered all the obvious ones, so please put some effort into it.)
*Pre-Tap
-
I am thinking the money was part of 2013/2014 and 2015 and Auditor General has some report somewhere definitely.
Somewhere where? When you wrote "Budget controller are okay with it. The same with Auditor General.", what specifically were you referring to? I.e., where can we find the AG's claimed OK on the Eurobond money?
-
The long and short is clear. Eurobond (right from the prospectus) was borrowed principally for BUDGET SUPPORT..not for any specific project. And gov explained long before that EUROBOND was specifically meant to reduce domestic borrowing and hopefully lower interest rate by forcing banks to lending to folks.
I don't think anybody disputes any of that, and none of it addresses the lie that I have pointed out. The question is where all the money went. So far, the Treasury by way of "clarifying explanations" has, in its various tables, been moving some figure column to column and row to row, according to wherever someone claims there is a hole. In this process it has sometimes engaged in outright lies to try and explain away the fiddling.
Why go to all this trouble?
-
I am thinking the money was part of 2013/2014 and 2015 and Auditor General has some report somewhere definitely.
Somewhere where? When you wrote "Budget controller are okay with it. The same with Auditor General.", what specifically were you referring to? I.e. where can we find the AG's claimed OK?
The closest he comes to okaying is when he does not qualify his report because he sees the money in the offshore account.
And this money never makes it to the consolidated fund; treasury is not even disputing that. Instead they are making strawman arguments around it. If anything they seem comfortable with accusations that focus on this illegality.
If this money never hits the consolidated account, then how is it included in the treasury's accounting? seems to be part of Ndii's beef.
-
What sort of logic is that. Auditor general has okayed EuroBond by default if he has not found any queries. I am assuming we already have done audit report for 2013/2014...at the very least the budget controller has confirmed receipt of money..so has IMF/WB..and anybody credible.All we have from the opposing end is nonsensical articles by Dr Ndii and equally confusing ones from Raila.
Parliament made the budget. Treasury job was clear. Fund that budget. Mobilise resources through domestic tbills/tbonds/eurobonds/grants/bilateral loans/multilateral loans. It not TREASURY role to answer which projects were executed by which ministry. All treasury cares for are budget lines....as okayed by the budget controller..and money goes there..if it stolen..or lies idle...Rotich doesn't know. All here knows...as far as IFMIS...this budget line xyz was given a green light by Adhiambo..and money was wired..when and if available.
The best Rotich can tell us is what each ministry received from treasury, what was budgeted for (Adhiambo domain) and whether it was used is probably Ouko's job.
-
What sort of logic is that. Auditor general has okayed EuroBond by default if he has not found any queries. I am assuming we already have done audit report for 2013/2014...
But most of the expenditure of that money took place in 2014/2015, and most of the questions are to do with what happened in that year.
at the very least the budget controller has confirmed receipt of money..so has IMF/WB..and anybody credible.
As far as I can tell, what they have said is that Kenya got the money. Nobody is disputing that; it all went into Kenyan accounts at JP Morgan Chase and Citibank. I am not aware that they have said anything about where the money then went. Do you have any pointers?
-
As far as I can tell, what they have said is that Kenya got the money. Nobody is disputing that; it all went into Kenyan accounts at JP Morgan Chase and Citibank. I am not aware that they have said anything about where the money then went. Do you have any pointers?
Yep. And finally into an offshore account whose number Henry Rotich keeps sharing. And it is NOT the consolidated fund. Rotich is saying without batting an eye, that this money moves from that account to the line ministries without passing through the consolidated fund. Which is unconstitutional.
I think this posture serves him well. It is audacious such that people are left thinking that the only crime is bypassing the law, rather than a potential mega-heist. Because Ndii is saying that they also raised a similar amount from local borrowing but it is not fully accounted for.
-
I think you're confusing issues here. Money meant to repay 600M USD syndicated commercial loan that Raila and Kibaki borrowed to finance 2013 election (mainly the canadian thud technology that misfired) was wired into Kenya's offshore account. The reason..to save Kenya foreign exchange losses..otherwise the money would have had to be wired to kenya and back to the group of banks who syndicated the commercial loan. Rotich there deserve credit for prudently managing our finance and saving us money. Budget Controller initially raised ruckus but finally okayed this...also public finance mgt act was amended to allow for this.
The rest of the money was wired in several transactions to consolidated account held at CBK.
The money was used as intended in Eurobond prospectus..to retire the more expensive commercial loan of 600M USD and for budgetary support. Some countries borrow for specific projects..but kenya didn't. The money therefore was not ring fenced.
Dr Ndii rambling is not evidence that Kenya gov borrowed 250B domestically. The correct position is that Kenya gov reduced borrowing significantly to 140B. If Dr Ndii knows who lend the gov 250B that year...maybe he can tell us....normally banks, insurance, pension funds account for nearly 80% of that money..and he can go digging around their balance sheet to see if they bought as much treasury bills and bonds that year...to corroborate his laughable attempt to confuse the public.
It also easy to check CBK/treasury tbills/tbonds floated that that year. Domestic borrowing is not a secret.
Yep. And finally into an offshore account whose number Henry Rotich keeps sharing. And it is NOT the consolidated fund. Rotich is saying without batting an eye, that this money moves from that account to the line ministries without passing through the consolidated fund. Which is unconstitutional.
I think this posture serves him well. It is audacious such that people are left thinking that the only crime is bypassing the law, rather than a potential mega-heist. Because Ndii is saying that they also raised a similar amount from local borrowing but it is not fully accounted for.
-
Raila will not appear before PAC after all. He was just running his mouth.
http://www.nation.co.ke/news/-/1056/3042716/-/qkuaqhz/-/index.html