Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: jakoyo on September 11, 2014, 02:21:18 PM
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Shocking verdict.
Judge Thokozile Masipa said the prosecution had failed to prove the Olympic athlete killed his girlfriend deliberately in the toilet after a row, prompting tears from Mr Pistorius.
He cannot have foreseen killing whoever was behind the toilet door, she said.
She added he was an evasive witness but this did not mean he was guilty.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-29143540
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It's not shocking at all, I told my relas that I thought he would be found guilty of culpable homicide but NOT murder, eventually I shut up because everyone had been following the media raving about the Prosecutor and looking only at his version and arguments as if they were the only ones that mattered. People have to realize that the onus is on the Prosecution and the std is beyond reasonable doubt. They did not establish that Oscar's version could not reasonably have happened, which means they left a nice big reasonable doubt for the judge.
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OMG, this bastard kills his girlfriend and walks free, unbelievable.
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OMG, this bastard kills his girlfriend and walks free, unbelievable.
He's not walking yet, he's just been found not guilty of the main charge (Murder)_. After lunch, the judge will rule on culpable homicide which I am willing to bet my last penny he will be found guilty of.
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It hard to prove murder(intent)...manslaughter(action) is more like it.
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He followed her down stairs . After a major row. Shot through the door , probably to terrify her. Killed her. It was murder , probably not intentional. Definitely not defensive.
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As long as there is word "probably" that benefit of doubt is granted to Pistorius. Manslaughter should be shoe in. Maybe 10yrs in prison.
He followed her down stairs . After a major row. Shot through the door , probably to terrify her. Killed her. It was murder , probably not intentional. Definitely not defensive.
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He followed her down stairs . After a major row. Shot through the door , probably to terrify her. Killed her. It was murder , probably not intentional. Definitely not defensive.
There was no down stairs, which one are you referring to? She was in the bathroom of the bedroom.
That version: she ran there, he followed her, shot through the door....that was the prosecution's explanation/version. They had the burden of showing it was the only reasonable one based on the evidence.
The defense said he went to the window/balcony, she left to go to the bathroom unbeknowst to him, he heard noises cming from the bathroom and still assuming Reever was in bed (because it was dark, she didnt switch the lights on, went with her phone), he assumed it was an intruder because that kind of thing actually happens in SA and reacted before he could investigate further.
Point? The prosecution could not show that Oscar's version could not be true. That means she must acquit him of murder even if she strongly suspects he committed murder.
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I agree with Kababe and RV pundit, the prosecutor did not present a strong motive that would make pistorius commit that kind of cold blooded murder or a history that would show a propensity towards such act without more evidence to that effect. It is therefore more believable that this seemingly meek and constantly sobbing and crying dude was not capable of cold blooded murder but may have killed accidentaly or in a freak self-defense accident. He may walk.
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Mr. Pistorius knowingly shot his wife. In a fit of temporary insanity. But he knew she was there. Behind the door.
You are woken up by sounds in the middle of the night. Your partner is not in her usual spot. The sounds seem to come from in the bathroom. What is your first instinct?
This bit is controverial. But I think the judge should have been a fellow Boer. A lot is lost in translation. A Bantu judge who grew up in the apartheid system might feel an unnatural sympathy for a Boer who cries in court.
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Termie, you need evidence of "knowingly" shot his wife. The prosecution presented your theory but did not meet the threshold of "beyond reasonable doubt". This is because the defense presented an equally plausible theory of how it all went down. Absent any evidence to bolster the prosecutor's theory, we have a tie, and in a tie, the defense wins.
Mr. Pistorius knowingly shot his wife. In a fit of temporary insanity. But he knew she was there. Behind the door.
You are woken up by sounds in the middle of the night. Your partner is not in her usual spot. The sounds seem to come from in the bathroom. What is your first instinct?
This bit is controverial. But I think the judge should have been a fellow Boer. A lot is lost in translation. A Bantu judge who grew up in the apartheid system might feel an unnatural sympathy for a Boer who cries in court.
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I saw the closing submissions on the sentencing today. Nell was in his element. The Judge looks like she will give Oscar a prison sentence, though I think this is only because of the publicity of the case and the risks of appearing to condone the behavior to society because of the case's notoriety. Otherwise, from the case law read/cited by Barry Roux, it seems the fairer sentence in South Africa's system should have been correctional supervision. So come Tuesday, I think he will get a prison term, but not the 10 years Nell is asking for. Maybe three years with community service or something. or she may surprise us with a creative combination.
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I say give him both; 3yrs in jail; 3yrs at community service.
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I think Pistorius killed his girlfriend intentionally after a quarrel at night. Ati he shot 4 shots in succession and the lady did not even say a word of cry. i honestly think that he intentionally shot her. How can you hear of an intruder in the bathroom meters away, wake up when assuming that the girl sleeping next to you in same bed is in there when you cannot even see that her side of the bed is empty or not; leave alone whisper to her that he heard some noises from the bathroom. Instead, he went put on his artificial legs and proceeded to the bathroom and shot there 4 times. Insane story by the gun loving Pistorus.
Sentencing is on Tuesday & dont be surprised if SA goes on flames
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If his girlfriend were a Bantu. Or better still if both were Bantus. This would be a non-story.
Think Samuel Wanjiru. A much more accomplished athlete. I don't remember even a single mention on mainstream TV.
Samuel Wanjiru was virtually unbeatable in the Chicago marathon.
His death was even more dramatic than Oscar's murder of his girlfriend. Stuff for ages for any tabloid or gossip channel.
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I think what saved Pistorious from murder charge is the fact that they could not find him guilty of pre-planning it..
this makes him guilty of the lesser charge- manslaughter...No one disputes he killed her in cold blood out of anger,
but at the same time there is no evidence he had envisioned it prior to when it happened.
Someone suggested she had told him point blank during that night's argument that the next morning she was
"packing and leaving for good", and he felt petrified..
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You see a lot of guys behaving like Oscar when they mingle with a chick above their league and suddenly they feel she's insulted them by being fabulous and unavailable. Some will even create stories/inexistent links/ beef to try to forcefully latch themselves on the woman by hook and crook. There are millions of beautiful women in the world stopping or ruining your life with jealousy coz you chanced upon one is rather retarded.
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I think what saved Pistorious from murder charge is the fact that they could not find him guilty of pre-planning it..
this makes him guilty of the lesser charge- manslaughter...No one disputes he killed her in cold blood out of anger,
but at the same time there is no evidence he had envisioned it prior to when it happened.
Someone suggested she had told him point blank during that night's argument that the next morning she was
"packing and leaving for good", and he felt petrified..
I watched a good deal of the trial and much that people discuss in the public domain is based on rumour and conjecture. The truth is that he was acquited of murder because the state's story did not add up. Critical portions of it was contradicted by the state's own experts and Oscar's experts and the testimony of screams was rejected because it did not add up with the timeline established by the other evidence. At the end of the day, all that was left was Oscar's version, that he woke up at night and left Reeva in bed and went to the balcony without turning the ligts on. While there he had a noise coming from the bathroom and assumed an intruder was coming through the bathroom window because he thought Reeva was sleeping, he fetched his gun and fired at the noise while shouting for him to get out and at Reeva to call the Police, scared that if the 'intruder" came out, he would overpower him because he did not have his prosthesis legs. This is the story he told immediately to the first witnesses and maintained throughout. It may be false, but it may also be true, and Barry Roux read from a number of cases during sentencing where similar accidents happened, a father shot his daughter thinking it was a thief, or a man shot a neighboring little boy thinking it was an intruder etc, so its not something that doesn't happen. But bottom line, the prosecution did not disprove Oscar's version so the judge had to accept it. Most people already had their minds made up long before the hearing, though.
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I think what saved Pistorious from murder charge is the fact that they could not find him guilty of pre-planning it..
this makes him guilty of the lesser charge- manslaughter...No one disputes he killed her in cold blood out of anger,
but at the same time there is no evidence he had envisioned it prior to when it happened.
Someone suggested she had told him point blank during that night's argument that the next morning she was
"packing and leaving for good", and he felt petrified..
I watched a good deal of the trial and much that people discuss in the public domain is based on rumour and conjecture. The truth is that he was acquited of murder because the state's story did not add up. Critical portions of it was contradicted by the state's own experts and Oscar's experts and the testimony of screams was rejected because it did not add up with the timeline established by the other evidence. At the end of the day, all that was left was Oscar's version, that he woke up at night and left Reeva in bed and went to the balcony without turning the ligts on. While there he had a noise coming from the bathroom and assumed an intruder was coming through the bathroom window because he thought Reeva was sleeping, he fetched his gun and fired at the noise while shouting for him to get out and at Reeva to call the Police, scared that if the 'intruder" came out, he would overpower him because he did not have his prosthesis legs. This is the story he told immediately to the first witnesses and maintained throughout. It may be false, but it may also be true, and Barry Roux read from a number of cases during sentencing where similar accidents happened, a father shot his daughter thinking it was a thief, or a man shot a neighboring little boy thinking it was an intruder etc, so its not something that doesn't happen. But bottom line, the prosecution did not disprove Oscar's version so the judge had to accept it. Most people already had their minds made up long before the hearing, though.
Makes sense, thanks for the insight.
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Judgement day; look like he will get custodial jail term but less than 10yrs.
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Pistorius rise : Count 1 for culpable homicide;5yrs; count 2; misuse of firearms; 3 yrs suspended for 5yrs on condition he doesn't flout;
Both will ran concurrently.
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so he will only be jailed 5 yrs?
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Yes. I think it's fair to all.
so he will only be jailed 5 yrs?
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Too lenient. And what about for the other charges? The one about firing guns bure bure in a car and at a stop light?
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Yes. I think it's fair to all.
so he will only be jailed 5 yrs?
Agreed. He was convicted of manslaughter, not murder.
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3yrs suspended for 5yrs unless he engage in any sort of assault. Confusing because both sentences ran concurrently.
Too lenient. And what about for the other charges? The one about firing guns bure bure in a car and at a stop light?
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The state is appealing against both the judgment and sentencing. Another round of media frenzy set in motion?
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The police screwed up the investigation and this case should wind up, with the prosecution being grateful for the manslaughter conviction. Police stole from the scene of the crime and that can be documented. So how can the scene be of any use to determining guilt? In most countries that act (of stealing valuables from the site by two different policemen) would have been enough to throw away any evidence from the scene of crime. Without that, there is no case.
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The police screwed up the investigation and this case should wind up, with the prosecution being grateful for the manslaughter conviction. Police stole from the scene of the crime and that can be documented. So how can the scene be of any use to determining guilt? In most countries that act (of stealing valuables from the site by two different policemen) would have been enough to throw away any evidence from the scene of crime. Without that, there is no case.
Moreover, South African law does not permit the state to appeal on the findings of fact in the judgment, only the questions of law, and judge Masipa already found as a matter of fact that Oscar never had the mens rea for murder, so I don't see how they can get anything more than manslaughter even if the appeal succeeds.
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I hope the defense can equally appeal and question the application of law. I think the judge was too timid to let him go. South Africans should discipline their policemen and become more professional.
It is the same situation I see in Kenya. I still haven't understood why anybody ever gets convicted in Kenya with such ineptitude. Try ineptitude in a civilized country and you watch the accused walk! When LAPD started walking around the city with vials of blood from O.J. didn't walk free?
But so that police learn to conduct investigations professionally, the question of using evidence from a scene of crime so poorly secured that people stole whatever they wanted should come up.
Moreover, South African law does not permit the state to appeal on the findings of fact in the judgment, only the questions of law, and judge Masipa already found as a matter of fact that Oscar never had the mens rea for murder, so I don't see how they can get anything more than manslaughter even if the appeal succeeds.