Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants on September 11, 2015, 05:54:12 PM
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This Perugia murder case, now mostly known as the Amanda Knox saga has been ongoing since 2007. I don't know how much of it you guys have followed or even if you are familiar with it at all. If you are/get familiar I would be interested to hear your views.
In a nutshell, an American girl, Amanda Knox, from Seattle, and a British girl, Meredith Kercher, meet in Perugia and end up sharing a house. A few weeks later, the British girl is found dead in her locked bedroom, her throat slit, her panties pulled down, bra pulled up.
Amanda Knox, her Italian boyfriend and a Rudy Guede, a young black man in Perugia, originally from Ivory Coast, are charged with her murder. Guede opts for fast track and goes to jail. The other two eventually also go to jail. Through numerous appeals, they are eventually acquitted.
It is a fascinating case to say the least. With the very distinct possibility that the innocent party in the whole case, was the one that went on to serve time and bear the blame for the whole crime. A young black man, at the wrong place, at the wrong time.
I have shared some links of interest. They may lean one way or another. But the first two make particular effort to be as faithful to the proceedings as possible, sharing original sources for the points they make.
The last one is more or less an extension of what you would see in US media and to a lesser but still significant extent, in the UK media. Basically PR for Amanda Knox with little regard for the facts of the case. A reporting of the case that bears little resemblance to what has actually taken place in Perugia as well as Italian courts.
If one had little faith in current mass media, this case will do little to improve the image of the same.
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Main_Page
http://truejustice.org/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/
The first link gives the best summary of the case. Once you get that, you can more confidently look at the other sites and the material(which is essentially the same but with diametrically different conclusions in the last link). The Italian legal system also comes across as very unique in comparison to common law jurisdictions.
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I followed the story for some time and then gave up when it turned into a sort of media circus and the "trials" seemed to be endless.
Anyways ... I'm not sure about
With the very distinct possibility that the innocent party in the whole case, was the one that went on to serve time and bear the blame for the whole crime. A young black man, at the wrong place, at the wrong time.
The guy seemed to have some peculiar stories. I also never understood his opting for "fast track"; he probably should have latched onto the other two.
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I followed the story for some time and then gave up when it turned into a sort of media circus and the "trials" seemed to be endless.
Anyways ... I'm not sure about
With the very distinct possibility that the innocent party in the whole case, was the one that went on to serve time and bear the blame for the whole crime. A young black man, at the wrong place, at the wrong time.
The guy seemed to have some peculiar stories. I also never understood his opting for "fast track"; he probably should have latched onto the other two.
Guede's story is indeed peculiar. His story is made more peculiar because he leaves his poop in the other bathroom. Interestingly, this fact is one of the factors that convinced me he was telling the truth. He heard the loud scream and jumped out of the bathroom, with barely enough time to pull his pants up or flush the toilet.
I think the man is behind bars because the only story that the court could accept was one consistent with his guilt. A young black man, looking to get laid, finds himself at the scene of a very serious crime. This predicament downs on him, correctly as it turns out, he panics, and flees to Germany. He was like early 20s late teens at the time. Nobody wants to believe that the victim was making out with a black dude; that is apparently adding insult to injury for the victim's family and the good people of Perugia.
That is very incriminating. Yet, apart from fleeing, he has never said anything that has been confirmed to be a lie. Everything he says, is consistent with the forensic evidence. And independent confirmation from the victim's room mates.
From the doorbell, his bloody footprints, DNA on the victim, no evidence consistent with rape or forced entry. His own admission is that he was indeed there, and they were making out with Meredith at some point before he had the urge to use to the bathroom.
While in the bathroom, he hears the door bell and Meredith answers the door. He wasn't sure who it was. But he thought it sounded like Amanda. So why would Amanda, who lives there, have to ring the door-bell? It turns out that she had to because the state of the door meant it had to be locked with a key left inside when any of the room mates were at home. Guede had no way of knowing this.
After some loud discussion, he hears a loud scream over his ipod. He rushes out of the toilet to find Meredith had been stabbed in the neck. He spends the rest of his time there trying to staunch her blood with towels. Basically trying to save her life. In the process he leaves the "incriminating" evidence.
The reason I find his involvement unlikely, especially in a threesome attack. He was not serious friends with Amanda Knox. He did not know her boyfriend at all. There wasn't that level of familiarity for him to commit that type of crime with them and vice versa. Guede was a player, not a fetishist. That has been one of the biggest weaknesses with the prosecution's theories.
The only way he could be involved was if he did it alone. But it would mean that he killed her, and then staged a scene to make it look like a break-in, took nothing of value, moved her body to make it look like a rape, then left DNA, bloody fingerprints and footprints on his way out. The key question is who has to gain from diverting attention to an outsider? It does not seem like Guede, the outsider in this whole saga.
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The "scenario" you have posted above is certainly plausible, but there seems to be a whole lot of other stuff.
The first link you posted above has this as part of its "mission statement":
It is our sincere and confident position that Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito, and Rudy Guede all participated in the murder of Meredith Kercher.
That was my view too when (last year) I looked at some of the details, such as those presented here:
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Evidence_List
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Rudy did it. Blood speaks.
The Italian justice system is corrupt and implicated others like the American for political reasons. It's bad tourism if the Italian alone was considered guilty. Italy already has bad rep for being a sleezy, mafia place. Rome is disgusting.
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The "scenario" you have posted above is certainly plausible, but there seems to be a whole lot of other stuff.
The first link you posted above has this as part of its "mission statement":
It is our sincere and confident position that Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito, and Rudy Guede all participated in the murder of Meredith Kercher.
That was my view too when (last year) I looked at some of the details, such as those presented here:
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Evidence_List (http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Evidence_List)
A lot of that is the prosecution case. They never once entertained the possibility that Guede was just a witness. The result is they end up finessing Guede into the murder plot, weakening their own case in the process.
His story does not have red flags. He fled because he panicked. He did not see the need to stay behind with the other two and cleanup the evidence for instance. That is an act of innocence; his apparent lack of concern for the implication or even covering his tracks. Until he realizes a little late, panics, and flees, leaving his poop and bloody shoe prints.
His presence there is explicable by his narrative. His DNA is found on the toilet paper, but no trace of blood in the bathroom where he poops. Then his DNA, bloody prints and all are found on Meredith, and in the hallway, leading straight to the exit. And nowhere else. To me that seems to confirm that at that point Guede leaves in some sort of haste. If he was part of the plan, why would he leave them behind to clean up and probably set him up?
Interestingly, the judicial report from the latest ruling is out(still in Italian). Amanda and her boyfriend were of course acquitted. Yet, snippets of the translated report explaining the ruling appear to suggest that she was definitely in that house, and even washed the victim's blood off her hands; in the likely attempt to cover up, for herself or someone else. Yet it found no reason(no evidence it says) to reverse the acquittal.
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According to Guede, when he comes out of the bathroom, he runs into Rafaele, Amanda's boyfriend, who he has never met. The guy has a knife. They engage in a mini-scuffle on the porch. Rafaele leaves, telling someone out of sight that it's a black guy and he'll be found culpable.
This is important. Because later on Amanda falsely accuses her black boss of the crime. He had called her that night, canceling her shift because business was low. She mistakenly assumes he was that black guy that Rafaele talks about. She did not see or know that it was Guede because he was not part of the plot.
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He killed her. No doubt about it. He should've gotten life. He's the type of individual who'd do it again when released.
The evidence of Guede’s guilt is irrefutable and should have been more than sufficient to secure a life sentence. Guede admitted he was in Meredith’s room at the time of the attack. His DNA, along with Meredith’s blood, was found on Meredith's purse. His shoeprints, set in Meredith’s blood, were found in the bedroom and in the hallway leading out the front door. As mentioned above, his handprint, in Meredith’s blood, was found on a pillowcase underneath her body. Most importantly, Guede’s DNA was found inside Meredith’s body.
Guede also had a history of break-ins similar to that seen at the cottage. One week prior to the murder, Guede was caught breaking into a nursery school by the school's owner, Maria Del Prato, when she arrived unexpectedly during off hours with two repairmen. Del Prato along with the repairmen kept Guede at the nursery and called the police.
When police searched Guede's backpack they found a laptop and cell phone that had recently been stolen from a Perugian law office. The break-in at the law office was very similar to the break-in at the cottage as Guede entered through an elevated window broken with a rock in both occasions. In the nursery school break-in, Guede was found in the possession of a large knife said to be stolen from the school’s kitchen. He was also in possession of a woman’s gold watch which tied him to another break-in occurring four days earlier. Guede’s break-in at the nursery no doubt made him a suspect in a previous burglary of the nursery in which cash had been stolen.
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/Rudy.html
The evidence against Rudy Guede:
Guede admitted he was in the room.
Guede's DNA was found in and on Meredith's body.
Guede's DNA along with Meredith’s blood, was found on Meredith's purse.
Guede's excrement was found in the toilet.
Guede's shoe prints, set in Meredith’s blood, were found in the bedroom and hallway.
Guede's handprint, in Meredith’s blood, was found on a pillow case in Meredith's room.
Guede had a cut on his right hand that was still visible when he was arrested.
Guede fled the country.
All of the evidence at the crime scene pointed to Rudy Guede. Amanda and Raffaele left no evidence at the crime scene. Why? Because Amanda and Raffaele were not there.
Rudy Guede murdered Meredith Kercher and he acted alone.
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He killed her. No doubt about it. He should've gotten life. He's the type of individual who'd do it again when released.
The evidence of Guede’s guilt is irrefutable and should have been more than sufficient to secure a life sentence. Guede admitted he was in Meredith’s room at the time of the attack. His DNA, along with Meredith’s blood, was found on Meredith's purse. His shoeprints, set in Meredith’s blood, were found in the bedroom and in the hallway leading out the front door. As mentioned above, his handprint, in Meredith’s blood, was found on a pillowcase underneath her body. Most importantly, Guede’s DNA was found inside Meredith’s body.
Guede also had a history of break-ins similar to that seen at the cottage. One week prior to the murder, Guede was caught breaking into a nursery school by the school's owner, Maria Del Prato, when she arrived unexpectedly during off hours with two repairmen. Del Prato along with the repairmen kept Guede at the nursery and called the police.
When police searched Guede's backpack they found a laptop and cell phone that had recently been stolen from a Perugian law office. The break-in at the law office was very similar to the break-in at the cottage as Guede entered through an elevated window broken with a rock in both occasions. In the nursery school break-in, Guede was found in the possession of a large knife said to be stolen from the school’s kitchen. He was also in possession of a woman’s gold watch which tied him to another break-in occurring four days earlier. Guede’s break-in at the nursery no doubt made him a suspect in a previous burglary of the nursery in which cash had been stolen.
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/Rudy.html
The evidence against Rudy Guede:
Guede admitted he was in the room.
Guede's DNA was found in and on Meredith's body.
Guede's DNA along with Meredith’s blood, was found on Meredith's purse.
Guede's excrement was found in the toilet.
Guede's shoe prints, set in Meredith’s blood, were found in the bedroom and hallway.
Guede's handprint, in Meredith’s blood, was found on a pillow case in Meredith's room.
Guede had a cut on his right hand that was still visible when he was arrested.
Guede fled the country.
All of the evidence at the crime scene pointed to Rudy Guede. Amanda and Raffaele left no evidence at the crime scene. Why? Because Amanda and Raffaele were not there.
Rudy Guede murdered Meredith Kercher and he acted alone.
veritas,
The story that he broke into a nursery and stole a laptop. Pure hogwash. It is a favorite of Amanda Knox PR. It is repeated without any supporting documentation; one of the reasons you'll be forced to look outside Knox's PR websites if you have any interest in getting at the underlying truth of the case.
In any case, the break-in at the cottage was staged. That has been confirmed in every court and official investigation documents. If Rudy Guede broke into the cottage, why would he stage it?
His DNA was on the victim and in the victim. They were making out. Later, he tried to staunch her blood. It is consistent. In the toilet his DNA was on the toilet paper. There was none in the "break-in" room.
Contrast with this. Amanda Knox's DNA is found mixed with the victim's own DNA in the staged break-in room. Filomena, who slept in there, no traces of her DNA. DNA traces are not that easy to create outside of bodily fluids. Amanda Knox's DNA is not even found in her own bedroom.
My point? I can't see a scenario where Guede's criminal involvement makes sense of the evidence. There is an innocent and not unreasonable explanation for his role. Which to me amounts to at least reasonable doubt.
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I think perhaps your judgment is being clouded by black lives matter.
There was no motive here other than sex. Amanda had a boyfriend. No crimes of passion etc. Open and shut case.
If it isn't Guede then it was a secret society thing Meredith was involved with. Maybe she had an affair with an Italian politician. Her background seems suss.
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I think perhaps your judgment is being clouded by black lives matter.
There was no motive here other than sex. Amanda had a boyfriend. No crimes of passion etc. Open and shut case.
If it isn't Guede then it was a secret society thing Meredith was involved with. Maybe she had an affair with an Italian politician. Her background seems suss.
The body was moved after death to highlight a sexual attack. The panties, removed, after death, again to highlight the same. If Rudy Guede raped her, why would he then stage a rape scene afterwards? Guede was not found to be crazy by any psychiatrist.
Guede also mentions the victim missing her rent money and rummaging through the house looking for it. I think she suspected Amanda Knox had stolen it to support her drug habit. Meredith's DNA samples from Amanda Knox's bedroom would seem to lend credence to this part of his story too.
I don't think you need to go as far as a secret society. You just have to ask who stands to gain from staging a burglary? To me, it's a no brainer that a staged burglary incriminates an insider. This is without even looking at all the other evidence against Knox.
If on the other hand, Guede was part of the plot with Amanda and boyfriend, I think she would have fingered him, instead of the Lumumba hail Mary, and got off more easily. The rest would have been mere irrelevant details, to be missed by even the more keen among us.
The prosecution's case was screwed up, but even then not completely, by what I will call Guede effect. An innocent black man on a crime scene is likely to lead people on a wild goose chase. Hence the fantastic theories that don't reconcile with the evidence.
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The evidence is pretty clear to me. I know many drug addicts and they don't kill over rent money. There would've been a pattern of stealing. He's a sloppy killer and a liar. Woman don't stab another chic in the neck unless it involves jealousy or something social like that. Guys on the otherhand do randomly rape and kill. Unfortunately Italy is not the place to be for foreign exchange students. For a student to be killed effects tourism and trade deals. It's as serious as that. At least if they implicated the American chic, the public can focus on that.
There's just no motive for Amanda and no criminal profile. I'm without a doubt certain Guede stabbed her in the neck. He's at the height and torque to stab her in the neck. Amanda as a chic and probably weaker would've gone for the stomach. An unlikely scenario since Meredith sounds like the tougher chic. Those bruises around her mouth are from a guy. No way Amanda had that much rage inside her to clamp someone's mouth down and stab simultaneously in the neck.
Italians are known to stab in the neck. Here's another case of a British lady stabbed in the neck the Italian police blamed on suicide and claimed she was German.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2143180/Claire-stabbed-10-times-throat-died-gasping-A-man-man-So-Italian-police-say-suicide.html
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The evidence is pretty clear to me. I know many drug addicts and they don't kill over rent money. There would've been a pattern of stealing. He's a sloppy killer and a liar. Woman don't stab another chic in the neck unless it involves jealousy or something social like that. Guys on the otherhand do randomly rape and kill. Unfortunately Italy is not the place to be for foreign exchange students. For a student to be killed effects tourism and trade deals. It's as serious as that. At least if they implicated the American chic, the public can focus on that.
There's just no motive for Amanda and no criminal profile. I'm without a doubt certain Guede stabbed her in the neck. He's at the height and torque to stab her in the neck. Amanda as a chic and probably weaker would've gone for the stomach. An unlikely scenario since Meredith sounds like the tougher chic. Those bruises around her mouth are from a guy. No way Amanda had that much rage inside her to clamp someone's mouth down and stab simultaneously in the neck.
Italians are known to stab in the neck. Here's another case of a British lady stabbed in the neck the Italian police blamed on suicide and claimed she was German.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2143180/Claire-stabbed-10-times-throat-died-gasping-A-man-man-So-Italian-police-say-suicide.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2143180/Claire-stabbed-10-times-throat-died-gasping-A-man-man-So-Italian-police-say-suicide.html)
By the evidence is clear, am I right to assume you think he broke into the cottage, then staged a break in, all the while leaving no trace of his presence in the break-in room? Went to take a dump during the break-in? Perhaps was caught by Meredith and he stabbed her? Then spent the rest of the time trying to staunch the blood? She died then he staged a rape? Then he cleaned with bleach all traces of blood, making sure to leave his own bloody shoe prints leading straight to the exit? Why would Guede do that? He was not crazy as far as anyone can tell.
I think the better explanation is contained in his own testimony. He was not with Amanda Knox and Rafaele; I believe we agree on that. He did not stage the break-in. Should he have reported the crime to the police right away? I believe that was the right thing to do. But there are innocent explanations why he didn't.
With Amanda Knox, the evidence against her is not as clear-cut, for a casual observer, at first glance. Unfortunately this is as much as most people will ever go, and her PR machine will hog that space. Yet, once you see it, it is almost impossible to find innocent explanations for it. It only makes sense, if she was involved in the murder.
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That's what a psychopath would do. He doesn't seem like a bright chap.
He came over, took a dump, tried to make out with her, she declined. He got angry and forced himself on her with a knife, she was too strong so he stabbed her. He tried to cover up but Amanda came back sooner than expected. He fled to Germany because he was guilty. Let me emphasise again he had no business whatsoever seeing Meredith, they weren't even dating. Rejection is perhaps what sparked his rage and subsequent killing.
Simple as that.
Termy, he fits the profile. He confessed. Amanda doesn't fit the profile. Her problem was naivety, she shouldn't have cooperated or have been entirely honest with the Italian cops. When you're too honest they think you're guilty and the wolves take advantage of that. I know what that's like.
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Unfortunately, I am not very well acquainted with this case, though I did hear about it (on the Oprah show, actually) a few years back when the American girl's family were on trying to get her freed (she was then in jail either awaiting trial or had just been convicted or something). I remember feeling quite sorry for her, they said she was just a college kid on a few weeks' vacation to Europe. Didn't follow it after that. I didn't even know that a black man was involved in the saga nor that the girl was eventually released. If I have time I may look at it in more detail, but right now I don't know enough about the details of the case to form an opinion either way.
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Unfortunately, I am not very well acquainted with this case, though I did hear about it (on the Oprah show, actually) a few years back when the American girl's family were on trying to get her freed (she was then in jail either awaiting trial or had just been convicted or something). I remember feeling quite sorry for her, they said she was just a college kid on a few weeks' vacation to Europe. Didn't follow it after that. I didn't even know that a black man was involved in the saga nor that the girl was eventually released. If I have time I may look at it in more detail, but right now I don't know enough about the details of the case to form an opinion either way.
Ok. Oprah is likely going to give a perspective that favors sympathy with an innocent American girl entangled in the crime due to anti-American bias. She will sell whatever message brings in the highest ratings and sympathy. In America, few can rival an innocent young all-American(read blonde white) girl charged with a crime in which an obvious culprit(African black man Rudy Guede) has already been found. Entertaining but not informative.
As for mainstream media in general, especially the English variety, they are either lazy, not interested in the facts, plain ignorant or straight up covering up and spreading falsehoods in that case. In any case they only serve to magnify ignorance of the case.
The best places to find information are official Italian judicial sites, which are all in Italian. The site The murder of Meredith Kercher (http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com) has done the best job of any that I can think of in getting the key aspects of the case in English. This usually is seen as a disservice to the truth by Amanda Knox supporters who prefer their own versions with little reference to the actual case.
Others like http://www.amandaknoxcase.com, http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/ are paid PR websites for Amanda Knox. I included them as sources with the idea that it should be obvious, immediately if not shortly afterwards, that they are there to spread the innocence gospel. They exhibit little to no interest in the actual facts of the case, opting to distort, and often tell outright lies, in the confidence that most of the English speaking audience, our dear veritas among them, will never bother to critically interrogate the story or with the original sources in Italian.
Guede's involvement is still unclear, apart from the fact that he leaves his trails all over the murder scene. He then tells a story whose outline is generally consistently supported by the crime scene evidence. To most of the western world though, his is a cut and open case. A young black man, with no saintly credentials, at a murder scene.
They are not wired to see Guede's presence any other way apart from a criminal involvement; Desmond Tutu would have his work cut out if he were to be found in Guede's situation. Guede's own actions following the crime don't do him much favor with a world already predisposed to declare him guilty. I also initially thought that his was straightforward guilt. But he is an odd-ball as a participant when the evidence is looked at holistically.
As for Amanda Knox, the single fact that negates her factual innocence is the staged scene. The break and the rape were staged. The inexplicable confirmed lie upon confirmed lie that she tells afterwards, the victim's DNA on a knife blade with her DNA on the handle, found in her boyfriend's house, merely serve to reinforce the factual guilt IMO.
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Termy, I get black lives matter and was shocked when I was in the States at how ugly white Americans were towards blacks. I didn't realise white American guys were so scum in real life. Without black Americans and hispanics, America would be a pretty trashy place to live.
Instead of focusing so much on the facts, why not focus on the scenario? What was Amanda's motive? If it wasn't Guede, it was probably the mafia or an outsider of somesort, random stabbing to who knows. At this point I'm still convinced it was Guede. He had motive. If he was so innocent, why didn't he try to help Meredith? Why did he flee to Germany? To me it is what it is. I haven't watched Oprah, I haven't seen a picture of Amanda. I'm going to break it down like MK does with maths. Feel free to correct.
x = meredith, y = guede, z = amanda, v = boyfriend
z and/or v = no prints at the crime scene - imagine a venn diagram....
let's assign a likelihood ratio to those 3 conditions.
I'm falling asleep already... Termy.... he killed her. Look at his eyes.
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Termy, I get black lives matter and was shocked when I was in the States at how ugly white Americans were towards blacks. I didn't realise white American guys were so scum in real life. Without black Americans and hispanics, America would be a pretty trashy place to live.
Instead of focusing so much on the facts, why not focus on the scenario? What was Amanda's motive? If it wasn't Guede, it was probably the mafia or an outsider of somesort, random stabbing to who knows. At this point I'm still convinced it was Guede. He had motive. If he was so innocent, why didn't he try to help Meredith? Why did he flee to Germany? To me it is what it is. I haven't watched Oprah, I haven't seen a picture of Amanda. I'm going to break it down like MK does with maths. Feel free to correct.
x = meredith, y = guede, z = amanda, v = boyfriend
z and/or v = no prints at the crime scene - imagine a venn diagram....
let's assign a likelihood ratio to those 3 conditions.
I'm falling asleep already... Termy.... he killed her. Look at his eyes.
It's a thousand piece jigsaw puzzle. You cannot get even an idea how the picture looks with ten pieces. Guede stands out like a sore thumb.
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Terminator:
You wrote that
After some loud discussion, he hears a loud scream over his ipod. He rushes out of the toilet to find Meredith had been stabbed in the neck. He spends the rest of his time there trying to staunch her blood with towels. Basically trying to save her life. In the process he leaves the "incriminating" evidence.
and that
According to Guede, when he comes out of the bathroom, he runs into Rafaele, Amanda's boyfriend, who he has never met. The guy has a knife. They engage in a mini-scuffle on the porch. Rafaele leaves, telling someone out of sight that it's a black guy and he'll be found culpable.
You and Guede need to pick one story and stick to it :D
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Terminator:
You wrote that
After some loud discussion, he hears a loud scream over his ipod. He rushes out of the toilet to find Meredith had been stabbed in the neck. He spends the rest of his time there trying to staunch her blood with towels. Basically trying to save her life. In the process he leaves the "incriminating" evidence.
and that
According to Guede, when he comes out of the bathroom, he runs into Rafaele, Amanda's boyfriend, who he has never met. The guy has a knife. They engage in a mini-scuffle on the porch. Rafaele leaves, telling someone out of sight that it's a black guy and he'll be found culpable.
You and Guede need to pick one story and stick to it :D
That is actually my fault. A lazy recollection. But all those elements are actually there in his testimony. I'll share the original once I get the chance.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3233301/Stay-away-grave-Knox-told-Meredith-Kercher-s-family-said-wanted-pray-there.html
Since Termy's been thinking about it so intently for many years sleepless nights, perhaps he has a point about something. I urge you to read this analysis though Termy, if you haven't already done so.
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/FBI2.html
7. WHAT WOULD WE HAVE SEEN IF AMANDA KNOX WAS THE KILLER SHE IS PORTRAYED TO BE? We would have seen:
A. A MOTIVE for violence:
No motive has ever been established for Amanda allegedly murdering Meredith, though the prosecution came up with a new one almost every week during the trial. None.
B. Homicidal fantasies or preoccupation:
No credible allegation has ever been made that Amanda Knox harbored homicidal fantasies or preoccupation. This would have surfaced by the time Amanda was 21. Stories would abound; she would likely be a feared person. Much like Rudy Guede was in Perugia.
C. Violent intentions and expressed threats
Not once can a single person provide any account that Amanda threatened anybody in her entire life. Not one person can state that she ever displayed violence of any kind. Ever.
D. Weapons skills and access
Amanda Knox has no knowledge of guns or knives as weapons. (If you consider cooking knives a weapon, then there is not a person in America or Italy over the age of 8 who does not have access to a weapon, rendering this part of the question null).
Putting a knife in Amanda’s hand is like putting a trumpet in my hand. It doesn’t mean that I know what to do with it. I am a firearms instructor. I can tell you that a knife or firearm in an inexperienced person’s hands is more dangerous to them than others. The thought that you could put a knife in Amanda’s hands, and the very first time, have her inflict fatal wounds (especially without injuring herself in the process) is ludicrous.
E. Pre-Attack planning
The Italian court stated that there was no pre-planning for this crime.
F. Stalking
No allegation was made, even by Mignini, that Amanda ever stalked Meredith or any other person. Amanda has never been accused of stalking or ANY similar behavior in the US.
G. Job Problems
Amanda held several jobs working toward going to Italy to study. She has never been fired from a job. She had no reason to believe that she was having any problems at Le Chic. (After an angry Patrick Lumumba was released from prison, he told the “Daily Mail” tabloid that he had fired Amanda prior to the crime. This was shown to be a lie in trial.)
H. Loss, Personal Stressors
Amanda was having the time of her life in Perugia. She had just met Raffaele, and was in a new romance. Amanda was extremely happy.
I. Lack of conscience
Much has been made of a perceived lack of concern for Meredith in the days following the murder. I believe most of these to be highly inaccurate and sensationalized, to sell media. However, the lack of conscience issue is not a photograph of one or two days in a person’s life. It is a movie of their entire life. Amanda’s care and concern for others in her hometown is legendary. Only those who prefer to get their information from tabloids believe otherwise.
J. Anger problems
Anger problems do not mean that a person is never angry. A complete lack of anger over a lifetime is a danger sign, not a reason to relax. Absent discredited tabloid reports, there are no indications that Amanda Knox dealt with anger any differently than any other normal person. There have never been any accusations by schools, teachers, and friends or family that Amanda had “a temper” or any such thing.
K. Depression and suicidality
I refer you to the answer to question 9: Amanda was having the time of her life in Perugia. She had just met Raffaele, and was in a new romance. Amanda was extremely happy.
L. Paranoia and other psychotic symptoms
Not a single speck credible evidence exists that in her entire life, Amanda Knox ever suffered from any mental illness, or neurosis.
M. Isolation
Before Amanda left America, she had hundreds of friends. She now has thousands. Amanda is a “people person”, who at the time of Meredith’s murder, had a boyfriend and lived with three other girls.
N. History of violence
None.
O. History of criminality:
Amanda Knox has NO history of criminality. None. In his latest appeal Prosecutor Mignini points out that Amanda was fined for a loud party. A loud party? Really? This is not criminality. Period. This is no more criminality than is a speeding ticket. Are all college students who host or go to loud parties now threats to become violent murderers? The argument is simply absurd and beneath the dignity of Mignini’s office, though clearly not below his personal dignity. This is a panic reaction to an upcoming appeal. Are we to believe that there is a person in a civilized country who believes that the throwing of a loud college party is grounds for raising a sentence from 26 years to life? Where are the statutes that say a loud party is worth a prison sentence enhancement? This is simply desperation and petty posturing. It should shame an otherwise honorable and reasonable Italian Judiciary.
Mignini alleges that rocks were thrown at the party. But he does not allege that Amanda had any part in it. She didn’t. How do I know? If Mignini had any proof that she threw a single rock, he would have put it in the appeal.
These are examples of a history of criminality that professionals recognize: Robbery, threats, assault, cruelty to animals….All things in which Rudy Guede has dabbled.
Amanda had been in Perugia for three months and was virtually unknown to the police. Rudy Guede, however, had been arrested several times in the previous 30 days.
P. Domestic partner violence
No.
Amanda scores a zero on the potential violence threat test. No threat. Not a small threat, not a manageable threat, not a moderate threat….no threat whatsoever.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3233301/Stay-away-grave-Knox-told-Meredith-Kercher-s-family-said-wanted-pray-there.html
Since Termy's been thinking about it so intently for many years sleepless nights, perhaps he has a point about something. I urge you to read this analysis though Termy, if you haven't already done so.
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/FBI2.html
7. WHAT WOULD WE HAVE SEEN IF AMANDA KNOX WAS THE KILLER SHE IS PORTRAYED TO BE? We would have seen:
A. A MOTIVE for violence:
No motive has ever been established for Amanda allegedly murdering Meredith, though the prosecution came up with a new one almost every week during the trial. None.
B. Homicidal fantasies or preoccupation:
No credible allegation has ever been made that Amanda Knox harbored homicidal fantasies or preoccupation. This would have surfaced by the time Amanda was 21. Stories would abound; she would likely be a feared person. Much like Rudy Guede was in Perugia.
C. Violent intentions and expressed threats
Not once can a single person provide any account that Amanda threatened anybody in her entire life. Not one person can state that she ever displayed violence of any kind. Ever.
D. Weapons skills and access
Amanda Knox has no knowledge of guns or knives as weapons. (If you consider cooking knives a weapon, then there is not a person in America or Italy over the age of 8 who does not have access to a weapon, rendering this part of the question null).
Putting a knife in Amanda’s hand is like putting a trumpet in my hand. It doesn’t mean that I know what to do with it. I am a firearms instructor. I can tell you that a knife or firearm in an inexperienced person’s hands is more dangerous to them than others. The thought that you could put a knife in Amanda’s hands, and the very first time, have her inflict fatal wounds (especially without injuring herself in the process) is ludicrous.
E. Pre-Attack planning
The Italian court stated that there was no pre-planning for this crime.
F. Stalking
No allegation was made, even by Mignini, that Amanda ever stalked Meredith or any other person. Amanda has never been accused of stalking or ANY similar behavior in the US.
G. Job Problems
Amanda held several jobs working toward going to Italy to study. She has never been fired from a job. She had no reason to believe that she was having any problems at Le Chic. (After an angry Patrick Lumumba was released from prison, he told the “Daily Mail” tabloid that he had fired Amanda prior to the crime. This was shown to be a lie in trial.)
H. Loss, Personal Stressors
Amanda was having the time of her life in Perugia. She had just met Raffaele, and was in a new romance. Amanda was extremely happy.
I. Lack of conscience
Much has been made of a perceived lack of concern for Meredith in the days following the murder. I believe most of these to be highly inaccurate and sensationalized, to sell media. However, the lack of conscience issue is not a photograph of one or two days in a person’s life. It is a movie of their entire life. Amanda’s care and concern for others in her hometown is legendary. Only those who prefer to get their information from tabloids believe otherwise.
J. Anger problems
Anger problems do not mean that a person is never angry. A complete lack of anger over a lifetime is a danger sign, not a reason to relax. Absent discredited tabloid reports, there are no indications that Amanda Knox dealt with anger any differently than any other normal person. There have never been any accusations by schools, teachers, and friends or family that Amanda had “a temper” or any such thing.
K. Depression and suicidality
I refer you to the answer to question 9: Amanda was having the time of her life in Perugia. She had just met Raffaele, and was in a new romance. Amanda was extremely happy.
L. Paranoia and other psychotic symptoms
Not a single speck credible evidence exists that in her entire life, Amanda Knox ever suffered from any mental illness, or neurosis.
M. Isolation
Before Amanda left America, she had hundreds of friends. She now has thousands. Amanda is a “people person”, who at the time of Meredith’s murder, had a boyfriend and lived with three other girls.
N. History of violence
None.
O. History of criminality:
Amanda Knox has NO history of criminality. None. In his latest appeal Prosecutor Mignini points out that Amanda was fined for a loud party. A loud party? Really? This is not criminality. Period. This is no more criminality than is a speeding ticket. Are all college students who host or go to loud parties now threats to become violent murderers? The argument is simply absurd and beneath the dignity of Mignini’s office, though clearly not below his personal dignity. This is a panic reaction to an upcoming appeal. Are we to believe that there is a person in a civilized country who believes that the throwing of a loud college party is grounds for raising a sentence from 26 years to life? Where are the statutes that say a loud party is worth a prison sentence enhancement? This is simply desperation and petty posturing. It should shame an otherwise honorable and reasonable Italian Judiciary.
Mignini alleges that rocks were thrown at the party. But he does not allege that Amanda had any part in it. She didn’t. How do I know? If Mignini had any proof that she threw a single rock, he would have put it in the appeal.
These are examples of a history of criminality that professionals recognize: Robbery, threats, assault, cruelty to animals….All things in which Rudy Guede has dabbled.
Amanda had been in Perugia for three months and was virtually unknown to the police. Rudy Guede, however, had been arrested several times in the previous 30 days.
P. Domestic partner violence
No.
Amanda scores a zero on the potential violence threat test. No threat. Not a small threat, not a manageable threat, not a moderate threat….no threat whatsoever.
veritas,
What's a good place to start? Read the evidence against her. Have you ever seen it?
While those points you raise might be good to have for a case, you don't need any of them to establish guilt. The circumstantial evidence against her is pretty incriminating by itself.
There are no innocent explanations for it. The reasoning for the latest acquittal puts her 0 to 5 meters away from the crime. Rubbishing her already weak alibi. It has her actually washing Meredith's blood off her hands.
A bizarre rationale, rivaling Mutungaru's there is no evidence because we refuse to see it.
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what's the circumstantial evidence ?
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Termy, I read the confession transcripts and the evidence presented by the defence. I see the following issues. Guede projects the crime outside himself and implicates Knox & boyfriend based on planted memories; planted DNA evidence on the knife, bra and footprints, the forensic report inconsistent with "professional" opinions. To me the defence focused too intently on building a case. The police helped plant evidence like plant DNA at the scene AFTER the murder, perhaps because Amanda was such a cow or because Guede's folks were rich.
Guede's story changes consistent with planted memories. He exhibits psychopathic traits like projecting his deed outside him or going to a disco while a girl bled to death. He wrote how "beautiful" she was - that inadvertently reveals motive - rage from rejection. Planted memories include reiterating "black guy did it"; more reference to Knox and boyfriend after media reports.
Circumstantial evidence and other cases of planted memories maybe due to so much media hype - like the witnesses hearing a scream and running confessing years after the murder. I read the professional opinion of the lacerations on Meredith's body from multiple attackers. She could've been high or drugged like most teens do at home and not out on the street walking and attacked like the way they've described it. Multiple attackers from not enough defence marks on her body or from easily planted evidence like the shoeprint and bra, sounds inadmissible.
I'm still a hundred percent certain after reading the court transcripts and the evidence presented by the defence, Guede killed Meredith. He should be getting life in prison. He's an obvious danger to society.
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Terminator:
You wrote that
After some loud discussion, he hears a loud scream over his ipod. He rushes out of the toilet to find Meredith had been stabbed in the neck. He spends the rest of his time there trying to staunch her blood with towels. Basically trying to save her life. In the process he leaves the "incriminating" evidence.
and that
According to Guede, when he comes out of the bathroom, he runs into Rafaele, Amanda's boyfriend, who he has never met. The guy has a knife. They engage in a mini-scuffle on the porch. Rafaele leaves, telling someone out of sight that it's a black guy and he'll be found culpable.
You and Guede need to pick one story and stick to it :D
That is actually my fault. A lazy recollection. But all those elements are actually there in his testimony. I'll share the original once I get the chance.
MOON Ki,
His sequence is meeting the stranger first. Fighting him off and then finding and attending to Meredith.
Below is the judge's criticism of his testimony.
The judge then took issue with Rudy’s description of events following the stabbing of Meredith. Rudy claimed that when he emerged from the bathroom he discovered a man with a knife standing over Meredith. In the resultant scuffle he suffered cut wounds to his hand. armed himself with chair to protect himself. before the attacker fled when he fell over because his trousers came down around his ankles. Micheli said that those who saw Rudy later that night didn’t notice any wounds to Rudy’s hands although some cuts were photographed by the police when he was later arrested in Germany.
Micheli found Rudy’s claim that the attacker ran from from the house shouting “black man found, black man guilty” unbelievable in the situation. In the panic of the moment it may be conceivable that the attacker could shout “Black man…, run” following the surprise discovery of his presence in the house, but in the situation Rudy describes, blame or expressions of who the culprit thought “the police would find guilty” made no sense. It would be the last thing on an unknown attackers mind as he sought to make good his escape.
Micheli considers the “black man found, black man guilty” statement an invention made up by Rudy to imply a possible discrimination by the authorities and complicate the investigation. Micheli also saw this as an excuse by Rudy to explain away his failure to phone for help (the implication being that a white man could have made the call). It was known by her friends and acquaintances that Meredith was never without her own phone switched on. She kept it so, because her mother was ill and she always wanted to be available for contact should her mother require help when she was on her own
Judge Micheli regarded Rudy’s claimed efforts to help Meredith impossible to believe, given the evidence of Nara Capezzali. Rudy claimed to have made trips back and forth to the bathroom to obtain towels in an attempt to staunch the flow of bood from Meredith’s neck. He claimed to have leaned over her as she attempted to speak and written the letters “AF” on the wall because he couldn’t understand her attempted words. His described activities all took time and Rudy’s flight from the house would have come minutes after the time he alleged the knife-man ran from the cottage.
Nara Capezzali maintained that after she heard Meredith’s scream it was only some seconds (well under a minute) before she heard multiple footsteps running away. Although she looked out of her window and continued to listen for some time because she was so disturbed by the scream, she neither heard nor saw any other person run from the house. That Rudy had run wasn’t in doubt because of his collision on the steps above with the boyfriend of Alessandra Formica. Micheli therefore considered it proven that “all” of Meredith’s attackers, including Rudy, fled at the same time.
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/understanding_micheli_1_why_he_rejected_rudy_guedes_explanations_as_fi (http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/understanding_micheli_1_why_he_rejected_rudy_guedes_explanations_as_fi)
He dismisses Guede's story as fiction. IMO while Guede seems to not have a single narrative, I think it's because he is off the mindset of a witness. He is not selling a narrative, but rather he is still trying to piece together events. A confused young man telling the truth as new bits of recollection emerge. None of it is incriminating or even a confirmed lie. It doesn't help, but it shouldn't incriminate either.
What is clear to me is that before and upto the point of the murder he was in the house legitimately. Because the break-in can be ruled out without further ado; one of the few areas of consistency in all the rulings. Someone invited him in the house. He was very much at home, enough to use the toilet, before the murder.
Whoever lets him in, knows that he is there in the bathroom. It could have been Amanda Knox (and her boyfriend) or Meredith Kercher or all three of them. Either way, he is a legal guest. The reason I think it's Meredith who lets him in is simply because he knows her a lot better than he knows Amanda Knox. He has never seen AK's boyfriend. On the other hand, if it is AK and boyfriend who let him in, then the murder does not happen, because there is not enough trust among the participants.
I believe Meredith let him into the house. In my reconstruction, the other two find her at home and probably think she is alone when she gets into the argument about money with AK. Maybe AK finds her leaving from her bedroom, searching for her money. Meredith's fingerprints were found in AK's bedroom(supporting Guede's story that she was looking for her money through the house).
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Termy, I read the confession transcripts and the evidence presented by the defence. I see the following issues. Guede projects the crime outside himself and implicates Knox & boyfriend based on planted memories; planted DNA evidence on the knife, bra and footprints, the forensic report inconsistent with "professional" opinions. To me the defence focused too intently on building a case. The police helped plant evidence like plant DNA at the scene AFTER the murder, perhaps because Amanda was such a cow or because Guede's folks were rich.
Guede's story changes consistent with planted memories. He exhibits psychopathic traits like projecting his deed outside him or going to a disco while a girl bled to death. He wrote how "beautiful" she was - that inadvertently reveals motive - rage from rejection. Planted memories include reiterating "black guy did it"; more reference to Knox and boyfriend after media reports.
Circumstantial evidence and other cases of planted memories maybe due to so much media hype - like the witnesses hearing a scream and running confessing years after the murder. I read the professional opinion of the lacerations on Meredith's body from multiple attackers. She could've been high or drugged like most teens do at home and not out on the street walking and attacked like the way they've described it. Multiple attackers from not enough defence marks on her body or from easily planted evidence like the shoeprint and bra, sounds inadmissible.
I'm still a hundred percent certain after reading the court transcripts and the evidence presented by the defence, Guede killed Meredith. He should be getting life in prison. He's an obvious danger to society.
veritas,
There is one person in this whole saga who has been convicted for telling lies. The all-American lilly white Amanda Knox. She is telling confirmed lies from the first moment of encounter with the authorities. There is no innocent explanation for them. She is facing more charges over lies at this very moment. Guede has never been confirmed to be lying. Guede's story is consistent with the holistic evidence.
You might want to see the factual sequence of events for a change http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Evidence_List. All this might come as a surprise if your only source of info on the case has been on the PR sites.
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I spent a good many hours reading the court transcripts, like the actual proceedings.
I'm not saying Amanda, boyfriend and Guede aren't pathological liars. They're all liars and I don't believe any of their testimonies.
There is however expert witness testimonies, other witnesses, sequence of events, presented evidence etc. It's apparent there is a hidden motive behind the defence case. It's clear there have been planted evidence, corrupted evidence, inconsistent expert testimonies etc. this happens in most cases when the victim's family aren't satisfied with the outcome. For instance, Meredith's mother is black, she like you perhaps believes that white chic did it and not the poor back dude. This reason alone can motivate a defence team to milk the situation to the max - be it planting evidence, bribery etc.
The fact DNA just happened to turn up in key places, 45 days after examining the crime scene is inadmissible. The defence case is inconsistent, they tried too hard and exhausted too many avenues to make something out of nothing. Now Guede (the one who committed the murder) will be out in a few years when they should've focused on building a case against him. Like bringing in more experts to testify on his psychological condition and to have him locked up for good. My guess is, the defence knows he did it but didn't want him sent to a mere mental asylum for his psychopathic state. Guede needs help. That's a young man out of rage murdered a defenseless chic.
let me continue this a bit later, I'm in my office and I need to head out to my executive lunch with staff on this gorgeous sunny day.
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Termy, this is getting old news. NEW news. Why do you think this professor shot his wife?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/shannon-lamb-dsu-shooting-found-dead_55f7a246e4b00e2cd5e7d1c8?section=australia&adsSiteOverride=au
I think he was just off his meds.
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I spent a good many hours reading the court transcripts, like the actual proceedings.
I'm not saying Amanda, boyfriend and Guede aren't pathological liars. They're all liars and I don't believe any of their testimonies.
There is however expert witness testimonies, other witnesses, sequence of events, presented evidence etc. It's apparent there is a hidden motive behind the defence case. It's clear there have been planted evidence, corrupted evidence, inconsistent expert testimonies etc. this happens in most cases when the victim's family aren't satisfied with the outcome. For instance, Meredith's mother is black, she like you perhaps believes that white chic did it and not the poor back dude. This reason alone can motivate a defence team to milk the situation to the max - be it planting evidence, bribery etc.
The fact DNA just happened to turn up in key places, 45 days after examining the crime scene is inadmissible. The defence case is inconsistent, they tried too hard and exhausted too many avenues to make something out of nothing. Now Guede (the one who committed the murder) will be out in a few years when they should've focused on building a case against him. Like bringing in more experts to testify on his psychological condition and to have him locked up for good. My guess is, the defence knows he did it but didn't want him sent to a mere mental asylum for his psychopathic state. Guede needs help. That's a young man out of rage murdered a defenseless chic.
let me continue this a bit later, I'm in my office and I need to head out to my executive lunch with staff on this gorgeous sunny day.
It's not just that she lies. But rather what she lies about. The holistic evidence is what incriminates AK, and boyfriend. Not DNA or biological traces, if they bolster the evidence.
She lies about the break-in, long confirmed to be staged. She lies about where she was, her alibi. She accuses an innocent man, Lumumba, after her alibi is destroyed. The list is long and can go on.
People can lie innocently. AK and boyfriend included. Yet there is no innocent explanation for any of her confirmed lies. The most innocent one I can think of is she just enjoys lying. But her lies are too strategic to be divorced from the crime.
IMO if one can come up with an innocent explanation for the staged break-in, establishing reasonable doubt for AK becomes a cake-walk. The staged burglary is the elephant in room. The other evidence merely explains why it had to happen.
Termy, this is getting old news. NEW news. Why do you think this professor shot his wife?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/shannon-lamb-dsu-shooting-found-dead_55f7a246e4b00e2cd5e7d1c8?section=australia&adsSiteOverride=au
I think he was just off his meds.
Hard to say. He's dead. We'll probably never know.
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It was staged by Guede.
He used the vaseline to rape her after she was dead. He most likely wore a condom and left no trace of semen. There was a struggle hence the inconsistent slash marks. He stabbed her numerous times and tried to contain her. He wasn't a seasoned killer yet, hence the frenzied knife and other assault marks not consistent with a typical murder victim.
With that much assault on Meredith's body it would've taken more than 15 minutes of abuse after her scream to do what he did. Sitting in the toilet for how long? His recollection of events is the most inconsistent of all.
He stole Meredith's money, keys etc. and shifted this on Knox rent money. He turned the place upside down genuinely looking for more money down to her bra and panties. I've been robbed in Kenya and let me tell you it was one of the most horrific experiences of my life. Those bandits feel all the way inside your private parts for cash. That's what he did.
He got such a high from his first kill, so he went to a disco afterwards. Typical of what militia groups in West Africa do.
His actions are consistent with a militia attack. Like an African militia wielding a panga in some poor girl's room. It would result in the same kind of frenzied crime scene.
They should've consulted Ivory Coast detectives or the UNHCR to inspect the crime scene. To me the crime scene sounds typical of a frenzied militia attack perpetrated by one individual - Guede.
Here's more of what Ivory Coast deranged psychopaths are cable of:
http://news.yahoo.com/spate-child-murders-horrifies-ivory-coast-174813949.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2931735/Ivory-Coasts-ritual-killers-kidnapping-boys-girls-struck-20-times-three-months.html
Let me emphasize again, Guede is from West Africa not East Africa. He also has a troubled history, escalating to this and that to finally his first murder. He isn't right in the head and he's capable of killing again.
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Here's another murder by Ivory Coast migrant in Italy. It's like they're running a gang syndicate slitting throats.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/11834743/Murder-of-elderly-couple-in-Sicily-fuels-Italys-growing-anti-immigrant-sentiment.html
Italy’s simmering anti-immigrant sentiment has been stoked by the murder of an elderly couple in their home in Sicily, allegedly by an African asylum seeker.
Mamadou Kamara, an 18-year-old from the Ivory Coast, allegedly slit the throat of Vincenzo Solano, 68, and then attacked his Spanish-born wife, Mercedes Ibanez, 70.
Ms Ibanez fell to her death from a second-floor balcony, during a robbery that turned violent.
Mr Kamara is one of thousands of migrants and refugees living at a vast reception centre at nearby Mineo, in south-eastern Sicily.
They are accommodated there after arriving by boat from Libya, and wait sometimes for months to have their asylum applications assessed.
The migrants are allowed to come and go freely from the facility, a former US military base where prostitution, links with organised crime and the trade in illicit goods is said to be rife.
Mr Kamara, who was rescued in the Mediterranean on June 8 and brought with other migrants to the port of Catania in Sicily, allegedly broke into the pensioners’ flat in the village of Palagonia, six miles away, and slit the throat of Mr Solano.
The elderly man’s wife was found dead in the courtyard of their three-storey apartment block. Investigators believe she may have fallen over the balcony in panic after trying to flee the attacker.
Mr Kamara was arrested after police searched his bag on Sunday as he returned to the migrant centre.
Inside they found a mobile telephone, a laptop computer, a video camera and a pair of trousers, allegedly belonging to Mr Solano, that were covered in blood.
The young African man claimed to have “found” the items, but police arrested him and are expected to charge him with two counts of murder.
Forensic police worked into the early hours of Monday gathering evidence at the elderly couple's flat.
Sebastian Maccarrone, the director of the Mineo migrant centre, said: "If it was him, it is a tragedy within a tragedy - for the people killed, and for integration. We are all shocked. I have spoken with many migrants and they all want to disassociate themselves from what happened.
"For each small step we have taken forward in terms of integration, this has put us 10 steps backwards."
The trousers were identified as belonging to Mr Solano by one of his daughters, who was contacted by police.
The pensioner had retired back to his native Sicily a decade ago after working for years in a Mercedes car factory in Germany. Detectives believe that other migrants may have been involved in the burglary.
More than 100,000 refugees have arrived by boat in Italy this year, making the crossing from Libya in overcrowded rubber dinghies and leaky fishing boats. Last year, a record 170,000 arrived on Italian shores.
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Below is the judge's criticism of his testimony.
Micheli found Rudy’s claim that the attacker ran from from the house shouting “black man found, black man guilty” unbelievable in the situation. In the panic of the moment it may be conceivable that the attacker could shout “Black man…, run” following the surprise discovery of his presence in the house, but in the situation Rudy describes, blame or expressions of who the culprit thought “the police would find guilty” made no sense. It would be the last thing on an unknown attackers mind as he sought to make good his escape.
I too would have found that one hard to believe.
Rudy claimed to have made trips back and forth to the bathroom to obtain towels in an attempt to staunch the flow of bood from Meredith’s neck.
And at no time during these trips does it occur to him to seek help, e.g. call for an ambulance?
IMO while Guede seems to not have a single narrative, ...
In such cases it usually helps to have one---preferably of what really happened, if one is innocent.
Meredith's fingerprints were found in AK's bedroom(supporting Guede's story that she was looking for her money through the house).
Not really. If she lived in the house, then she could have been---and probably had been---in that room at another time, for an entirely different purpose.
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Below is the judge's criticism of his testimony.
Micheli found Rudy’s claim that the attacker ran from from the house shouting “black man found, black man guilty” unbelievable in the situation. In the panic of the moment it may be conceivable that the attacker could shout “Black man…, run” following the surprise discovery of his presence in the house, but in the situation Rudy describes, blame or expressions of who the culprit thought “the police would find guilty” made no sense. It would be the last thing on an unknown attackers mind as he sought to make good his escape.
I too would have found that one hard to believe.
Rudy claimed to have made trips back and forth to the bathroom to obtain towels in an attempt to staunch the flow of bood from Meredith’s neck.
And at no time during these trips does it occur to him to seek help, e.g. call for an ambulance?
IMO while Guede seems to not have a single narrative, ...
In such cases it usually helps to have one---preferably of what really happened, if one is innocent.
Meredith's fingerprints were found in AK's bedroom(supporting Guede's story that she was looking for her money through the house).
Not really. If she lived in the house, then she could have been---and probably had been---in that room at another time, for an entirely different purpose.
The judge betrays his prejudice I think. By suggesting that "black man" is more logically followed by "run", as opposed to Guede's testimony. Yet, in the context of everything else in the case, it is not far fetched. AK and Sollecito demonstrated a penchant for lies that was manipulative. The main issue with Guede is that the standard of guilty until proven innocent was applied to him. So guilt was ascribed even when innocent explanations were not unreasonable.
I had also wondered why he does not call for help. It's only later that I learnt Guede did not have a phone. Why he does not seek for help afterwards when he leaves in a panic? I think he realized no one would believe him.
The fingerprint point you make is fair enough, to me. Even though other evidence, such as Meredith's character and relationship to AK would make it unlikely for Meredith to be a frequent visitor. What is interesting is that no fingerprint of Amanda Knox herself is found in her own bedroom. This page here sheds some light on the fingerprinting http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Fingerprints
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I had also wondered why he does not call for help. It's only later that I learnt Guede did not have a phone.
And the lady's phone? The house down the street? He just keeps getting towels, which aren't working?
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I had also wondered why he does not call for help. It's only later that I learnt Guede did not have a phone.
And the lady's phone? The house down the street? He just keeps getting towels, which aren't working?
Meredith's phones disappeared from her handbag at some point that night. Guede's biological traces, I believe DNA, was found on the handbag.
1. One theory would be that Guede takes the phones, along with the keys and throws them into a yard somewhere in Perugia where they are later found.
2. The other theory is that Guede tries to find her phone in her handbag in order to call for help, but the phones have already been taken away by AK and boyfriend.
Each would have to be taken on its merits. But we know that Guede did try to help Meredith by staunching her bleeding. The towels prove it. In that moment could he have searched for her phone in the handbag?
The other would have to assume that he takes her phones and keys from the handbag to throw away. The only question would be why he would do that after trying to save her. Is it to delay the discovery of her body? This would appear to be contradicted by the fact that his shoe-prints leave the victim's bedroom and head straight out. He leaves the bedroom door open as he exits.
After he exits the scene in a panic, I believe his state of mind did not permit him to contact help, for instance the neighbor down the street because he realized noone would believe him.
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In that moment could he have searched for her phone in the handbag?
Maybe. But did he ever suggest that he did so? if not, then we should assume that he did not.
After he exits the scene in a panic, I believe his state of mind did not permit him to contact help, for instance the neighbor down the street because he realized noone would believe him.
Perhaps. I'm more curious about why he chose to go for towel after towel, instead of seeking a phone or help elsewhere.
Most likely, they all did it. From the facts, as given, is it possible to construct a narrative that fits that?
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In that moment could he have searched for her phone in the handbag?
Maybe. But did he ever suggest that he did so? if not, then we should assume that he did not.
After he exits the scene in a panic, I believe his state of mind did not permit him to contact help, for instance the neighbor down the street because he realized noone would believe him.
Perhaps. I'm more curious about why he chose to go for towel after towel, instead of seeking a phone or help elsewhere.
Most likely, they all did it. From the facts, as given, is it possible to construct a narrative that fits that?
We can't assume he did. Yet it is reasonable that he could have and did not consider it an important detail.
One can reconstruct such a narrative as you suggest. With Guede's left shoe stepping in the blood. Then he exits the scene for good. Yet, the only narrative we have of the towels is Guede's. His story about the towels is consistent with the evidence.
If they all did it, it would mean that Guede had that level of trust for AK and Rafaelle. There is no evidence that supports that. Because of the lack of familiarity with each other that they had, regardless of motive for murder, Rafaele cannot trust Guede and vice versa.
The other scenario would involve Guede and AK alone, who are on ciao level of familiarity. In that case, AK lets Guede into the house, he poops, comes out without flushing, and they attack Meredith, then he leaves the scene. AK then informs Rafaelle with a made-up story after Guede has left. The problem with that is why Rafaelle would agree to be involved in setting up the rape scene instead of just calling the cops on Guede.
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When it's two people it's premeditated. There's no record of that whatsoever. Amanda didn't even know Guede's name. Guede initially brought the towels to clean up and dispose of Meredith's body. The task was heavier than expected considering there were others who could've walked in any moment. He had a history of not bothering to flush the toilet let alone clean up a murder scene. He fled to Germany instead.
I bet he spent some time on the Ivory Coast trying to find his dad before things spiralled down for him. I say this because when I came from Kenya after 2 years I was forgetting all the time to flush the toilet because I'd grown used to a pit toilet.
If Amanda and boyfriend had any part in this then it could've been they came back that night, discovered Meredith dead, freaked out and fled the scene.
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When it's two people it's premeditated. There's no record of that whatsoever. Amanda didn't even know Guede's name. Guede initially brought the towels to clean up and dispose of Meredith's body. The task was heavier than expected considering there were others who could've walked in any moment. He had a history of not bothering to flush the toilet let alone clean up a murder scene. He fled to Germany instead.
I bet he spent some time on the Ivory Coast trying to find his dad before things spiralled down for him. I say this because when I came from Kenya after 2 years I was forgetting all the time to flush the toilet because I'd grown used to a pit toilet.
If Amanda and boyfriend had any part in this then it could've been they came back that night, discovered Meredith dead, freaked out and fled the scene.
I would add and fled the scene without calling the police. To me the real oddity of the burglar angle is why a burglar would find it necessary to stage the event after doing his thing. Maybe he did it to really fool the detectives. After all only Amanda's and Meredith's mixed DNA are found in break-in room.
Rudy Guede has been in Italy since he was 5 or 6. His dad also lives in Italy.
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His dad moved back to the Ivory Coast permanently and abandoned Rudy to a rich family who then abandoned him. Rudy lived on the Ivory Coast at some point. His rich adopted family eventually abandoned him because they'd been covering up his criminal tendencies for awhile.
Amanda and boyfriend's DNA were found behind Meredith's bra clasp moved under the carpet after the crime and tested 46 days later. Same thing with the kitchen knife when Amanda and boyfriend were in custody. Most likely planted/contaminated DNA and inadmissible. It's not humanly possible to have that little DNA on a piece of evidence unless clinically planted. If Amanda touched Meredith's bra, there would'v been more of it. We humans are messy.
Maybe it wasn't staged. Guede turned the place upside down looking for money. He was penniless right? I think this saga has blown out of proportion because Meredith's family have been blindsighted by media reports. The case itself minus planted evidence, witness tampering and the weird Italian judicial system is quite straight forward.
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If they all did it, it would mean that Guede had that level of trust for AK and Rafaelle. There is no evidence that supports that. Because of the lack of familiarity with each other that they had, regardless of motive for murder, Rafaele cannot trust Guede and vice versa.
The joint commission of a crime need not necessarily involve much, or any, trust. And this is likely to be so if the crime is "spontaneous" and the people involved are stoned.
Yet, the only narrative we have of the towels is Guede's. His story about the towels is consistent with the evidence.
I can also imagine a scenario in which the three, in a fit of rage, stab the lady. Guede then tries to save her while the other two flee but return later and, finding the woman dead, try to stage some sort of scene.
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His dad moved back to the Ivory Coast permanently and abandoned Rudy to a rich family who then abandoned him. Rudy lived on the Ivory Coast at some point. His rich adopted family eventually abandoned him because they'd been covering up his criminal tendencies for awhile.
Amanda and boyfriend's DNA were found behind Meredith's bra clasp moved under the carpet after the crime and tested 46 days later. Same thing with the kitchen knife when Amanda and boyfriend were in custody. Most likely planted/contaminated DNA and inadmissible. It's not humanly possible to have that little DNA on a piece of evidence unless clinically planted. If Amanda touched Meredith's bra, there would'v been more of it. We humans are messy.
Maybe it wasn't staged. Guede turned the place upside down looking for money. He was penniless right? I think this saga has blown out of proportion because Meredith's family have been blindsighted by media reports. The case itself minus planted evidence, witness tampering and the weird Italian judicial system is quite straight forward.
Amanda, and boyfriend, but especially Amanda is incriminated not by DNA, but rather entirety of the evidence. DNA merely seals the ends of the case; frosting on the cake. If Guede turns the place inside out you would think he would leave some trace of it, given that he was living biological traces everywhere he went. And perhaps actually take some of valuables in plain sight in the break-in room. The break-in was staged..
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If they all did it, it would mean that Guede had that level of trust for AK and Rafaelle. There is no evidence that supports that. Because of the lack of familiarity with each other that they had, regardless of motive for murder, Rafaele cannot trust Guede and vice versa.
The joint commission of a crime need not necessarily involve much, or any, trust. And this is likely to be so if the crime is "spontaneous" and the people involved are stoned.
Yet, the only narrative we have of the towels is Guede's. His story about the towels is consistent with the evidence.
I can also imagine a scenario in which the three, in a fit of rage, stab the lady. Guede then tries to save her while the other two flee but return later and, finding the woman dead, try to stage some sort of scene.
So we have three scenarios. And maybe more. But at least one plausible scenario leaves reasonable doubt about Guede.
Guede is on a gulty until proven innocent without any doubt standard. AK and boyfriend are on an innocent until proven guilty without any doubt standard.
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Guede is on a gulty until proven innocent without any doubt standard. AK and boyfriend are on an innocent until proven guilty without any doubt standard.
Another way to look at it is that they are all guilty, but the black guy has been locked up whereas the whites are free. That would be unfair, but one need not rack one's brains to see how and why it would happen.
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Guede is on a gulty until proven innocent without any doubt standard. AK and boyfriend are on an innocent until proven guilty without any doubt standard.
Another way to look at it is that they are all guilty, but the black guy has been locked up whereas the whites are free. That would be unfair, but one need not rack one's brains to see how and why it would happen.
Yep. And the last court almost bends over backwards to do the work of the defense, giving new meaning to benefit of the doubt, for the whites. In their last reasoning report delayed for months, they place Amanda Knox in the house contrary to her lies, she washes the victims blood off her hands to cover up, does nothing to save victim or call for help, lies about it the next and subsequent days, gets a black man locked up for weeks until a foreign white man vouches for his innocence, but acquits her for lack of conclusive evidence because no biological traces of hers are found in the murder room. Any doubt was good enough to acquit them.
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MK, there would've been traces of illicit substance use. And that kind of stench can cling forever. They would've also had scratches, bruises or something on their body and the only individual who displayed that was Guede.
If three were involved in the stabbing they would've aimed for the belly and not just the neck while the victim was held back. Neck attacks are perpetrated by one individual usually after a quick kill. Meredith was obviously pinned down by an individual when she moved her head right to left, escaped at some point perhaps pinned down again.
If Amanda was in the room and held Meredith back or even stabbed her, she'd have marks on her arms, hands, wrists, and DNA in the room even after she wiped it clean. It makes no sense Amanda's boyfriend running back home to grab his kitchen knife to stab Meredith then take the murder weapon back home to cut his tomatoes.
Termy, you should read the court proceedings and on the presented evidence. Also refer to past murder cases and on criminal profiling. Guede is a classical psychopath- not a bright one either. I wouldn't look at this murder as a race issue. The heinous callous nature of the stabbing makes one think a trio gang was involved but unfortunately psychopaths with that much rage are capable of callous killings.
Guede killed Meredith.
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MK, there would've been traces of illicit substance use.
Which is why I would never use "illicit substances" in my own house. So I could be at home, completely out of it, but with no evidence around of "illicit substances".
It makes no sense Amanda's boyfriend running back home to grab his kitchen knife to stab Meredith then take the murder weapon back home to cut his tomatoes.
The world is full of "sick f**ks", and numerous, more colorful happenings have documented. In fact, I would not completely rule out the possibility that he deliberately stabbed her so that he could then use the same bloody knife to slice through and enjoy some red tomatoes.
If three were involved in the stabbing they would've aimed for the belly and not just the neck while the victim was held back. Neck attacks are perpetrated by one individual usually after a quick kill. Meredith was obviously pinned down by an individual when she moved her head right to left, escaped at some point perhaps pinned down again.
I don't know. There are a lot of theories in this case. Reminds me of Colombo: The perps (and others) always think that certain types of crimes must be committed in certain ways, and so they try to arrange (materially or otherwise) things to suit such views. But there is the way in which it was actually done, and it is always pretty much clear by the 10:45 commercial (if one missed the opening scenes of the commission).
Terminator: running away "because people will think I did it" is never a very bright idea; as a rule, the thinking tends to be that "he ran away because he did it".
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MOON Ki,
I agree about running away. It mitigates what can otherwise be a viable innocent explanation. If he reports it right away, he'll be in serious trouble, but probably ultimately with a better chance to walk. Even then, I think his goose would still be cooked by both the evidence and the inability to countenance any other explanation for it for the Negro with blood on his hands. To pick a random example, veritas would probably lock him up because he is from Cote d'Ivoire. I am not sure that type of persuasion is rare in Italy. He gave them way more than they required to lock him up.
@veritas,
Amanda probably walks with a "clear conscience" if she reports the crime. Given the leeway and generous benefit of the doubt she has enjoyed in this trial, she merely needed to report it. Maybe lie that she got home and found the girl dead. Stick with the lie. Once Guede is caught, no one would bother her. As it is though, Meredith was killed by more than one person. At least one of the murderers, maybe more, stayed behind to rearrange the scene.