Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: RVtitem on July 29, 2015, 10:46:35 PM
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http://economics.mit.edu/files/7641
[pdf]http://economics.mit.edu/files/7641[/pdf]
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Always wary of simplistic one fit all silver bullet kind of explanation and solution for complex subject like poverty.
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Pundit
It's as easy as pie. Kenyatta/Moi believed in themselves and killed almost all institutions. Meanwhile Korea et al strengthened institutions. Difference is clear. We could be where Korea is if we had running institutions.
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I think we have the right institutions in place for a while. The problem is that they aren't being respected.
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Is Africa Poor in the first place?
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Is Africa Poor in the first place?
Good question.
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Why is Africa "poor"? I would say Africa is rich but its people are poor.
Here is why:
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Lack of responsibility. The buck stops with NOBODY.
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It easy to lay all the blames on one convenient man like Moi or Kenyatta or our leaders. That doesn't require any thinking.If you believe that US will regress to third class if we exported Moi there; then your argument will be valid.
British ran kenya for 60 yrs since 1900 and they didn't leave us a wealthy nation.
I believe poverty is caused by many many many things. Some are easy to solve. Others are hard.
If I was given a clean slate like South Sudan and I was as clean as Obama....I doubt I would turn the fortunes of that country very quickly. First you'll be dealing with really illiterate folks. About 99% have never gone to school. And that is what likes of Jomo found. All the key indicators completely at the very base.
How do you fix such a country in one generation. It impossible. By the time the first lot who go to school today graduate, it will be 16yrs from now. Meanwhile the country will be filled by boozos who do not even understands why you need toilet or why you need to bath or why you shouldn't cattle rustle or name any primitive culture. Heck they won't even understand why you need to send kids to schools. Why you need to immunize them. or heck to go hospital.
At least South Sudan are lucky they strike Oil..now imagine being the president of Kenya in 1960s...a country of ignorant diseased malnourished illeterate people mostly eking their lives digging and herding...who cannot feed themselves..leave alone pay taxes...enough to do anything. All they do is popping out kids and dancing as they drink Busaa. The country has nothing. No schools. No roads. Nearly nothing. The biggest town is Juba like..with tents.
Democracy alone cannot fix that. Institutions alone cannot fix that. Leadership alone cannot fix time. Maybe ONLY TIME can fix that.
If those MIT dudes are serious...let them find any remote place in kenya...and use it as experiment. We can give them a village...call it "Millenenium Village" like Prof Sach deluded idea...and we see the transformation happening. Given it a small area..we can even afford to give each person about 40K usd per annum..the same per capita like US...and then we can return after 5yrs to see how advance they've become.
Pundit
It's as easy as pie. Kenyatta/Moi believed in themselves and killed almost all institutions. Meanwhile Korea et al strengthened institutions. Difference is clear. We could be where Korea is if we had running institutions.
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It easy to lay all the blames on one convenient man like Moi or Kenyatta or our leaders. That doesn't require any thinking.
African "leaders" are forever robbing their countries blind, plunging them into horrific violent mayhem and crimes against humanity, oppressing their people, etc. Who should be blamed for all that? The Devil?
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Indians have prospered in Africa despite all that. Maybe because they spend less time looking for scape goats and really work hard in their dukas, send kids to schools, expand their business and generally get on with life.
I don't blame Kenyatta or Brits for my grand parents poverty. I think they were doomed by by fate and reality to end up in penury.
Leadership plays a role in poverty....but it one of the variable..in 1,000 plus complex equation. The 1,000 plus are the reason we are debating here day in day out.
African "leaders" are forever robbing their countries blind, plunging them into horrific violent mayhem and crimes against humanity, oppressing their people, etc. Who should be blamed for all that? The Devil?
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Indians have prospered in Africa despite all that. Maybe because they spend less time looking for scape goats and really work hard in their dukas, send kids to schools, expand their business and generally get on with life.
I don't blame Kenyatta or Brits for my grand parents poverty. I think they were doomed by by fate and reality to end up in penury.
Leadership plays a role in poverty....but it one of the variable..in 1,000 plus complex equation. The 1,000 plus are the reason we are debating here day in day out.
African "leaders" are forever robbing their countries blind, plunging them into horrific violent mayhem and crimes against humanity, oppressing their people, etc. Who should be blamed for all that? The Devil?
I think you are mistaken in downplaying the impact of leadership on the fate of nations. It is the kind of impact that determines whether any Tom, Dick and Harry can reasonably expect a decent life as opposed to only a few geniuses, businessmen and well connected types.
You might want to rephrase the question to why are other regions not as poor as Africa?. The regular people there are not any different or smarter than the rare hardworking honest African policeman who can barely make ends meet.
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Indians have prospered in Africa despite all that. Maybe because they spend less time looking for scape goats and really work hard in their dukas, send kids to schools, expand their business and generally get on with life.
I don't blame Kenyatta or Brits for my grand parents poverty. I think they were doomed by by fate and reality to end up in penury.
Leadership plays a role in poverty....but it one of the variable..in 1,000 plus complex equation. The 1,000 plus are the reason we are debating here day in day out.
African "leaders" are forever robbing their countries blind, plunging them into horrific violent mayhem and crimes against humanity, oppressing their people, etc. Who should be blamed for all that? The Devil?
You have not answered the question. Once you care to answer it, you should then proceed to explain how Africa will thrive under such "leadership".
On Indians in Africa: Those are small, close-knit communities whose members make a point of taking care of each other. The Indian in Africa will happily corrupt, steal from, or use the African, but he will almost never do that to his own. Nor does the Indian engage, in any way, against Indian or African, in the sort of mindless mayhem that African inflicts on African.
African "leaders" have stolen, and stashed overseas tremendous wealth that could have been used to uplift their people; the rest they have simply squandered. And all the time begging and borrowing and pleading for "help". To insist that responsibility cannot be put on their shoulders goes some way in explaining why things continue to be the way the are.
On another thread
http://www.nipate.org/index.php?topic=2268.msg16080#msg16080
I wrote that:
Over the weekend, I had dinner with a variety of people---Asian, Western, etc.---and from a variety of professions. I asked them for their thoughts on how some Asian countries had done so well and if their experience could be "exported" to Africa. Generally, they pointed to four things:
* The right government policies, vigorously and forcefully seen through.
* Advantageous use of readily available human capital. (In this regard, one or two "unhelpfully" mentioned our seemingly endless capacity for mayhem, with large numbers of youth "employed" in "rebel armies", etc.)
* A low tolerance for corruption, even if it exists. (On this one, I was staggered to learn that estimates, by a UK group, of stolen African money stashed overseas is around $1 trillion---Buhari's $150 billion is only for 10 years and for just one country---but the begging is endless!)
* A very strong and focused work-ethic. (Here, NACADA's figures, which show that most youth in the "Capital Area" and surrounding environs are "fully loaded" by noon hardly paint a pretty picture for the future.)
If you have better ideas, then let's have them. Otherwise, consider what role proper leadership plays in the above.
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I'm not overplaying or underplaying leadership. I acknowledge it one of the Key variable. But they are many variables. There is also no evidence to support your claim that other regions are not as poor as Africa. other regions in Asia, Latin America and other areas have similar poverty levels with Africa.
I think you are mistaken in downplaying the impact of leadership on the fate of nations. It is the kind of impact that determines whether any Tom, Dick and Harry can reasonably expect a decent life as opposed to only a few geniuses, businessmen and well connected types.
You might want to rephrase the question to why are other regions not as poor as Africa?. The regular people there are not any different or smarter than the rare hardworking honest African policeman who can barely make ends meet.
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Dear Monki,
Don't expect me to answer stupid or rhetorical questions.
The leaders are not blameless...but they are not entirely to blame. The people are to blame. The circumstance is to blame. The environment is to blame. Even. Luck or lack of luck is to blame. Culture is to blame. History is to blame. Geography is to blame. Name it. There are so many reasons why people are poor.
You cannot blame leaders for folks eking a living out of a desert like northern Kenya...what do you want kenyatta or moi or raila to do....??
How does a country develop.....by improving slowly on all those variables.....and then eventually kaboom...you have all conditions needed for "take off" and line a plane..you zoom quickly into 40,000 feet above ground. Then it seem easy. All you need is a pilot.
At micro-level...Indians in Kenya or say me and you....we can be successfully..because we went to school, worked hard, don't pop many kids, live a discipline life, start business, bla de bla or we win some lottery and despite what leaders do or failed to do..we do as well as well run country.
At macro-level..where the concern is moving everyone from El molo to guys in Runda...there you need to engage more THINKING. Or well the country can hit a huge jackpot of gold, diamond and oil..and hopefully it a tiny country...and we can move to first world very quickly.
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Dear Monki,
Don't expect me to answer stupid or rhetorical questions.
Try to stay away from unhelpful emotion. Instead, give us your "better" ideas.
You cannot blame leaders for folks eking a living out of a desert like northern Kenya...what do you want kenyatta or moi to do....??
(a) Return the money they stole and stashed overseas so that it can be used to develop those regions. (b) Current Kenyatta also to stop his friends from continuing with the theft and put the people's money to proper use for the people.
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There is also no evidence to support your claim that other regions are not as poor as Africa. other regions in Asia, Latin America and other areas have similar poverty levels with Africa.
(Latin America????)
There is plenty of data. Start at the link below, looking at both current levels and future projections, and continue elsewhere.
http://www.worldbank.org/en/publication/global-monitoring-report/poverty-forecasts
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Before I open any report, I still recall HAITI normally was down there whatever metric was used.
There is also no evidence to support your claim that other regions are not as poor as Africa. other regions in Asia, Latin America and other areas have similar poverty levels with Africa.
(Latin America????)
There is plenty of data. Start at the link below, looking at both current levels and future projections, and continue elsewhere.
http://www.worldbank.org/en/publication/global-monitoring-report/poverty-forecasts
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Unlike you I try to be dispassionate and to really think. It emotional to blame Uhuru or Moi or Museveni for problems in Africa..some which Africa poor self inflict. Whose fault is it that about 10% of kids never go to school...even when that schooling is free? or well never vote...when it free to vote.
Kenya is poor country...it like a poor family...even if all their money is not stolen..they will remain poor...and will marginally improve.
All the money stolen nowadays get somehow invested back....or well like my cousin cop...it ends up in local bar and with sluts..and it oils that economy....so the net effect is nearly the same...economy wise.
Corruption has existed in every country; and evidence shows; it solves itself as long as the economy is growing.
You don't expect poor leaders or folks with discretion not to steal; they will; you don't expect a poor judge at judiciary not to steal; he will.
Focus on BEYOND THE OBVIOUS.
Corruption maybe endemic..but it has been reducing since the days of Moi looting free.
(a) Return the money they stole and stashed overseas so that it can be used to develop those regions. (b) Current Kenyatta also to stop his friends from continuing with the theft and put the people's money to proper use for the people.
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All the money stolen nowadays get somehow invested back....
Yes, that would explain why, say, Bhuari is asking Obama to help Nigeria get back $150 billion that has been stashed overseas in just the last 10 years.
And on the basis of your statements, it is amazing that people all over the world get worked up about stolen public money and other serious forms of corruption. In some cases, they will quickly execute those responsible for the type of corruption found in Kenya. Somebody needs to tell them that it is all being invested, so not to worry!
Corruption has existed in every country; and evidence shows; it solves itself as long as the economy is growing.
Therein lies the difference between some countries. The issue is not in the mere existence: some countries work hard to tackle the problem, whereas others wait for it to solve itself.
Still, I hope that all those in Kenya who are suffering from this vice will find some comfort in your words. You really ought to try and get it out to a wider audience.
Corruption maybe endemic..but it has been reducing since the days of Moi looting free.
Reducing, eh? Interesting.
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Yes corruption has reduced...even TI corruption perception index must bear that out.
Reducing, eh? Interesting.
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Yes corruption has reduced...even TI corruption perception index must bear that out.
Really? It must? Wow. And does it?
Nairobi, Kenya –3rd December 2014: Kenya has performed dismally in the global Corruption Perception Index (CPI) 2014 released today by the Transparency International movement. Kenya scored 25 on a scale of zero to 100 (with zero perceived to be highly corrupt, and 100 very clean), down two points from last year’s score of 27.
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“Kenya’s decline in the Corruption Perceptions’ Index calls to question the reforms that have been instituted in various sectors since the adoption of the Constitution of Kenya 2010. An audit of the reform process is needed to isolate areas of weakness that continue to provide fertile ground for corruption,” said Samuel Kimeu, the Executive Director Transparency International Kenya.
http://tikenya.org/index.php/press-releases/330-kenya-s-performance-in-corruption-perception-index-casts-doubt-on-reforms
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2 points low on a single data point. Largely within the margin of error. What is overall trend for the last couple of years.
Yes corruption has reduced...even TI corruption perception index must bear that out.
Really? It must? Wow. And does it?
Nairobi, Kenya –3rd December 2014: Kenya has performed dismally in the global Corruption Perception Index (CPI) 2014 released today by the Transparency International movement. Kenya scored 25 on a scale of zero to 100 (with zero perceived to be highly corrupt, and 100 very clean), down two points from last year’s score of 27.
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“Kenya’s decline in the Corruption Perceptions’ Index calls to question the reforms that have been instituted in various sectors since the adoption of the Constitution of Kenya 2010. An audit of the reform process is needed to isolate areas of weakness that continue to provide fertile ground for corruption,” said Samuel Kimeu, the Executive Director Transparency International Kenya.
http://tikenya.org/index.php/press-releases/330-kenya-s-performance-in-corruption-perception-index-casts-doubt-on-reforms
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I look at the data show we are worseing 2012 (27) 2013(25) 2014(22); That tells you Uhuru need to work on this. China is at 35 and booming. So like I said 1 out 1,000 plus variables.
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I look at the data show we are worseing 2012 (27) 2013(25) 2014(22); That tells you Uhuru need to work on this. China is at 35 and booming. So like I said 1 out 1,000 plus variables.
First: Corruption is reducing, and the TI index surely must show that.
Second: Maybe not; but it is only 2 points, and what is the overall trend?
Third: The overall trend is bad; but, hey, it is only 1 of 1000+ variables.
I love it!
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Well I've not kept abreast with all the 1,000 indicators/variables...the last time I checked I knew Kenya was improving..and it seem things are worsening. You can make a meal out of it. If you present facts...which you didn't...then I don't argue with facts.
Definitely we had improved from Moi era when we were bottom 3 world wide...and it seem we are regressing. And that too is normal. Just like GDP growth rate falling once in a while. I take a long term view of kenyan prospect.
First: Corruption is reducing, and the TI index surely must show that.
Second: Maybe not; but it is only 2 points, and what is the overall trend?
Third: The overall trend is bad; but, hey, it is only 1 of 1000+ variables.
I love it!
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I look at the data show we are worseing 2012 (27) 2013(25) 2014(22); That tells you Uhuru need to work on this. China is at 35 and booming. So like I said 1 out 1,000 plus variables.
If I were to look in Asia for a comparison, I think Cambodia, much more than China, is a more suitable comparison to Kenya. They have similar types of approach in dealing with corruption. Basically they just assume it's not the problem others make it out to be. The outcomes are also comparable.