Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: RV Pundit on July 26, 2015, 02:59:25 PM
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Obama recalls a conversation with one opposition groups. They wanted him to be "hard" on gov. Obama reminded him that recently he was in gov and he wanted him to respect gov sovereignty.
Admit US was previously involved but now that has changed.
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That will sound like music to the jubilant ear. The opposition should by now realize it is up to them to change this system.
Obama represents American interests. If reforms suit them, he will push for them. Conversely democracy can go to hell if it runs counter to US plans.
If they doubt it, they should talk to Nicaragua's Daniel Ortega.
Obama himself is an interesting character. When he campaigned against Hillary in 2008, he managed to keep the liberals on his side by embracing the Single Payer healthcare system.
When negotiations began with Republicans on the same, Single Payer was not tabled. It was never mentioned once. Not even passing.
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Yeap the greatest beneficiaries of this tour have been Uhuru and Auma Obama. Uhuru must be doing a victory lap now. He seem to have charmed his way to Obama.
Obama has jetted off and now normal service can resume.
That will sound like music to the jubilant ear. The opposition should by now realize it is up to them to change this system.
Obama represents American interests. If reforms suit them, he will push for them. Conversely democracy can go to hell if it runs counter to US plans.
If they doubt it, they should talk to Nicaragua's Daniel Ortega.
Obama himself is an interesting character. When he campaigned against Hillary in 2008, he managed to keep the liberals on his side by embracing the Single Payer healthcare system.
When negotiations began with Republicans on the same, Single Payer was not tabled. It was never mentioned once. Not even passing.
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Osama has wisened in engaging countries especially Negroes;
1. A dictator is infinitesimally less risky than a managed regime change
2. Confrontations are a luxury America can't afford now that Kung Fu is painting the world red
3. America has finite and stretched capabilities so babysitting the world is wearisome
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Yeap the greatest beneficiaries of this tour have been Uhuru and Auma Obama. Uhuru must be doing a victory lap now. He seem to have charmed his way to Obama.
Obama has jetted off and now normal service can resume.
That will sound like music to the jubilant ear. The opposition should by now realize it is up to them to change this system.
Obama represents American interests. If reforms suit them, he will push for them. Conversely democracy can go to hell if it runs counter to US plans.
If they doubt it, they should talk to Nicaragua's Daniel Ortega.
Obama himself is an interesting character. When he campaigned against Hillary in 2008, he managed to keep the liberals on his side by embracing the Single Payer healthcare system.
When negotiations began with Republicans on the same, Single Payer was not tabled. It was never mentioned once. Not even passing.
One would hope he realizes he seriously needs to sort out the security mess. Al shabaab. He can't afford to be on an Obama high for too long. I have spotted a semi-rehabilitated Malik in the throng too. I wonder how long his high will last. Perhaps next time he is stopped at the gates of state house and told to fuck off.
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Opposition have to give kenyans a reason to listen to them.
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Obama recalls a conversation with one opposition groups. They wanted him to be "hard" on gov. Obama reminded him that recently he was in gov and he wanted him to respect gov sovereignty.
Admit US was previously involved but now that has changed.
I guess this is what Obama meant:
Mr Ranneberger's comments drew immediate anger from Raila Odinga, Kenya's prime minister.
"We don't need lectures on how to govern ourselves. Lecturing us on issues that deal with governance and transparency is in bad taste," Mr Odinga said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/kenya/5979171/Dont-lecture-us-Kenyan-PM-tells-US-as-Hillary-Clinton-begins-Africa-tour.html
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Obama recalls a conversation with one opposition groups. They wanted him to be "hard" on gov. Obama reminded him that recently he was in gov and he wanted him to respect gov sovereignty.
Admit US was previously involved but now that has changed.
I guess this is what Obama meant:
Mr Ranneberger's comments drew immediate anger from Raila Odinga, Kenya's prime minister.
"We don't need lectures on how to govern ourselves. Lecturing us on issues that deal with governance and transparency is in bad taste," Mr Odinga said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/kenya/5979171/Dont-lecture-us-Kenyan-PM-tells-US-as-Hillary-Clinton-begins-Africa-tour.html
He took a swipe at Raila. I believe he even praised kamwana's window dressing on corruption. Jakom is probably stung.
Hopefully he does not call it quits. For all his faults, he is what stands between a sham democracy and a full fledged tribal dictatorship.
The day Kenyans of all persuasions understand that no outsider is responsible for their state of affairs is the first day of maendeleo.
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Raila time I think is pretty much up. Uhuru executed yet another PR coup and gave as good as Obama did. This was a proud moment for kenya considering what Moi and Kibaki were...senile pumpkins..and here stood Uhuru always ready, always prepared and seemingly intelligent.
Uhuru made me proud of my vote for him.
Raila should consider handing the baton to a man of younger generation who can deal with contemporary issues. And these are now developmental. I think legal, human rightst, structural,constitutional and name them issues have been dealt with..and if they haven't...they are not crisis level.
We know need somebody who can compete on softer issues...the nuts and bolts..of managing the country.
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He took a swipe at Raila. I believe he even praised kamwana's window dressing on corruption. Jakom is probably stung.
Hopefully he does not call it quits. For all his faults, he is what stands between a sham democracy and a full fledged tribal dictatorship.
The day Kenyans of all persuasions understand that no outsider is responsible for their state of affairs is the first day of maendeleo.
I saw Alai spinning it. Says Osama was telling off Kalonzo and not Rayirla.
Think about it. This is a wake up call for Rayirla, they will have to make do with what is there and no machinations and arm-twisting, no magic from America. If I were Osama looking at Eastern Africa, am looking at Burundi burning, Kagame seeking a 3rd term,Museveni technically a lifer, Ethiopia's pathetic repression on media...Kenia is heaven. Then add to that Kung Fu mullah. And then Al shabaab. Osama has so many reasons to treat Ouruto with kid gloves.
We have 2 years to go...the wake up call was timely.
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I think you are trying to prepare nail soup. Nothing has changed about Obama's policies. The understanding and perception may have changed but that change is in the beholder not Obama.
I noted that Pundit states that Obama or is it US used to interfere. Of course this was the case and led to decolonization. The idea behind US support for decolonization was to gain access to previously ring-fenced British monopolistic markets and raw materials.
Come the Cold War and everyone stuck to whatever he could grab. Kenya transited from a British citadel to American power in the 80s after Britain suffered serious economic problems leading to the fear that Somalia might invade.
From 1978 - 91 - The US exercised some amount of influence over Kenya. It started off as being simply persuasive, with state visits to the US by Moi and constant high level visits by Sec of state (various). The granting of access to Mombasa and other military locations for the US military comes to mind.
This ended when there arose the Sub Saharan Spring that saw Kaunda, Banda etc go. Pressure was brought to bear on Moi. Trouble started.
I doubt that the US has ever sought to impose any leader on Kenyans. They may have preferences but I doubt there has ever been any direct attempt.
The narrative that Obama wanted to impose Raila was long discredited and I have taken it as part of the Kenyan political propaganda.
Osama has wisened in engaging countries especially Negroes;
1. A dictator is infinitesimally less risky than a managed regime change
2. Confrontations are a luxury America can't afford now that Kung Fu is painting the world red
3. America has finite and stretched capabilities so babysitting the world is wearisome
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There is no proof that Obama meant Raila. In fact Raila is last on my list of suspects. Raila wanted and asked for US mediation in 2007. Though he sat in government as PM, he had many run ins with Kibaki's retinue over appointments, the Katiba etc.
His comrades - Kalonzo and Wetangula - on the other hand made some very hawkish statements in that period.
I am not saying that it is NOT Raila and I am not saying it is him either. There is simply not enough to go by.
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Omollo,
I think I disagree with your historical analysis; I think Americans have always left the British to deal with Kenya only coming to intervene directly when they felt the British were being soft (91 Hempstone-Multipartism) and recently in 2007/2008 PEV..and they needed to bring in the big guns. When I used to work with folks from the US Embassy that seems the modus operandi..they defaulted to the Brits. The American respected and appreciated the deep roots & network that British had...while their footprints around Kenya are and were still minimal. The British generally cozy-ed up to the Kenyan leadership--Kenya leadership did the same as proud members of "commonwealth" and I think it's only Githongo-Brit Ambassador (forget his name) who decided to go frontal largely as result of China kissing their bride.
The last decade has seen British influence deteriorate to the extend I think in another 10 yrs they'd have to close down the commonwealth.
The place were you see deep American networks are those post-world war 2 colonies in Asia and America that US took over from Japan and the likes..likes of Philiphines/South Korea/...in Africa...US and Russia...has always played a second fiddle to the French and British.
But now everything is changing. US is basically broke. Europe is worse than US. China is awash with cash. Africa are emerging and refusing to play ball.
Bottomline for me, US will ran up and down Africa, but they cannot provide what Africa need. China will take over Africa. British Empire in Africa has fallen generally to the Chinese. The French is still holding on...they've tightly coupled their economies and destinies...so I think the French will hold on for some years.
But China is different ball game......it has unprecedented amount of cash..to buy everyone out.
I think you are trying to prepare nail soup. Nothing has changed about Obama's policies. The understanding and perception may have changed but that change is in the beholder not Obama.
I noted that Pundit states that Obama or is it US used to interfere. Of course this was the case and led to decolonization. The idea behind US support for decolonization was to gain access to previously ring-fenced British monopolistic markets and raw materials.
Come the Cold War and everyone stuck to whatever he could grab. Kenya transited from a British citadel to American power in the 80s after Britain suffered serious economic problems leading to the fear that Somalia might invade.
From 1978 - 91 - The US exercised some amount of influence over Kenya. It started off as being simply persuasive, with state visits to the US by Moi and constant high level visits by Sec of state (various). The granting of access to Mombasa and other military locations for the US military comes to mind.
This ended when there arose the Sub Saharan Spring that saw Kaunda, Banda etc go. Pressure was brought to bear on Moi. Trouble started.
I doubt that the US has ever sought to impose any leader on Kenyans. They may have preferences but I doubt there has ever been any direct attempt.
The narrative that Obama wanted to impose Raila was long discredited and I have taken it as part of the Kenyan political propaganda.
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If I weere Raila, I will give new blood a chance. Its time.
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You mean he should quit after picking somebody and telling voters to support that person? That is not how modern democracy works.
Why can't the voters just identify the person and show it by voting for him instead of Raila? Raila fought and earned his corner. He defied Jaramogi to run for a seat in Nairobi and he broke out of the Wamalwa FORD-K that Moi was comfortable dealing with. Raila made his own man - even with the name recognition. Name recognition did not help Uhuru until Moi brought him close and it is not helping Gideon Moi or Mudavadi.
Has he not performed? He did not lose the 2007 elections as you well know. He should have gone for a runoff in 2013 and if defeated, I would have no grudges. So when you say he should give it to a younger person, please explain to me, would a younger person have won against Kibaki's rigging machinery in 2007 or the games that denied Kenyans a runoff in 2013?
Evidence is slowly emerging of how Isaack Hassan made decisions that ruined the 2013 elections. We now know that there was never any voters register. If there was, then nobody can state which one and how many people were on it. So how did the IEBC calculate the 50+1 winner without knowing the exact number of verified voters on the register?
If I weere Raila, I will give new blood a chance. Its time.
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By virtue of its power, whatever the US does/doesn't amounts to interference. When Obama says he will keep his hands off Kenya's affairs, that is a signal that emboldens the jubilant in his agenda.
That is bad news for the opposition and democracy in general. Because Jubilee can now ignore them. They already believe they have the winning formula through at least 2022(beyond which kamwana can only guarantee his family's support to the hustler).
You can be sure IEBC is not going to change a thing in how they run elections. No fixes to the glitches from the last one; even though CORD seems uninterested. The chicken eaters will preside over it with impunity.
That seems to be the immediate direction Kenya will go. Whether the anti jubilant half of the country will be convinced to quietly tag along with the tribal dictatorship will define the politics.
Either way, Raila will and should remain a fixture on the landscape. He remains relevant. Age by itself does not mean much by way of policies.
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If I weere Raila, I will give new blood a chance. Its time.
If Raila is not perfect, he is the only counterweight, if somewhat weakened by Obama's total disrespect, to the current regime.
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Do not worry opposition will soon have enough ammunation to shoot at the govt. the next financial scandal round the corner or a security lapse and Al Shabaab will strike again.
If you think TNA regime has learnt, you will be surprised for the opposite to be proved soon.
Opposition have to give kenyans a reason to listen to them.
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He has been completely neutered and is becoming a joke. Sadly for the opposition, he is still the best they've got. Uhuru right now is more or less guaranteed a second term. Unless we a really radical voter registration that alters the demographics..Uhuru is going to romp back with even bigger percentage.
Either way, Raila will and should remain a fixture on the landscape. He remains relevant. Age by itself does not mean much by way of policies.
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China will take over Africa. British Empire in Africa has fallen generally to the Chinese.
Incredible. 50 years of "sovereign, independent, and equal"---with blood and tears expended for the "independence"---and Africans still get up to proudly and happily announce that they are being taken over, much as a young widow will tell the village that some rich, old guy is moving for the f**king. And f**king (in the rear end) is exactly what it is.
How about Africa standing up for itself and doing for itself, instead of "falling" and "being taken over"? Africans need to give up this mentality, in which they are "owned" by anyone who claims to be providing "help".
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Why are you surprised? RV Punda wastes most of his time in this forum claiming China has done this and that for Africa what US and British did not do for the last 100 years. He never asks what Africans have done or what they can do for themselves. Why exchange a slave master and still be proud?
China will take over Africa. British Empire in Africa has fallen generally to the Chinese.
Incredible. 50 years of "sovereign, independent, and equal"---with blood and tears expended for the "independence"---and Africans still get up to proudly and happily announce that they are being taken over, much as a young widow will tell the village that some rich, old guy is moving for the f**king. And f**king (in the rear end) is exactly what it is.
How about Africa standing up for itself and doing for itself, instead of "falling" and "being taken over"? Africans need to give up this mentality, in which they are "owned" by anyone who claims to be providing "help".
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By virtue of its power, whatever the US does/doesn't amounts to interference. When Obama says he will keep his hands off Kenya's affairs, that is a signal that emboldens the jubilant in his agenda.
It certainly is an "unhelpful" signal, but the Kenyan Opposition still sees things in terms of the days of Moi and guys like Hempstone. I see no future in such an outlook. The USA is currently in its "third generation" of "learning" about African countries:
* The 1st generation involved such things as going around helping in the overthrow of elected leaders. The lesson largely learned from that was that the replacements could be much worse.
* The 2nd generation is exemplified by cases such as Kenya's. The lesson learned from that is "democratic elections", new-and-improved constitutions, and so forth are of limited worth unless the people themselves really want change. (A place like Kenya does not lack laws or institutions; what it lacks are respect for the law and the proper leadership for its institutions. And there is nothing the USA or anyone else can do about that.)
* The third generation is in light of the tremendous abuse by bodies such as the AU, w.r.t. to certain ICC cases. Who needs that? Best leave folks to sort themselves out. Increasingly, I see little enthusiasm on the part of Western countries to involve themselves in the untidier parts of African life. Such involvement is costly and the "gratitude-returns" are too little.
The last point is especially relevant to places like S. Sudan, which is now undergoing the failure-to-learn type of mayhem that all newly "independent" African countries seem to have a strong appetite for: Apart from humanitarian aid, I don't see the rest of the world doing much. Even the ICC will tread carefully despite evidence of very serious crimes. This is not especially helpful for Africa. The much-praised Kung Fu, whose "taking over" is now being praised, will never get involved in anything that does not show them profit at the end: health, nutrition, etc. Yet many Africans who owe their very existence to mosquito net and malaria medicines from the West, to generations of yellow maize from America, etc. will still pull out their willies in public and excitedly jerk-off about who is "helping" them and who is not.
There is also the notion that the USA is "fighting" the Chinese for dominance in Africa. To anyone who entertains such a notion, I would ask this: What exactly does the USA want out of Africa that it is not getting right now?
Apart from the particular aspect that is the focus of this thread, people should pay careful attention to the rest of what Obama said in various places. In a nutshell: "It's up to you folks."
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By virtue of its power, whatever the US does/doesn't amounts to interference. When Obama says he will keep his hands off Kenya's affairs, that is a signal that emboldens the jubilant in his agenda.
It certainly is an "unhelpful" signal, but the Kenyan Opposition still sees things in terms of the days of Moi and guys like Hempstone. I see no future in such an outlook. The USA is currently in its "third generation" of "learning" about African countries:
* The 1st generation involved such things as going around helping in the overthrow of elected leaders. The lesson largely learned from that was that the replacements could be much worse.
* The 2nd generation is exemplified by cases such as Kenya's. The lesson learned from that is "democratic elections", new-and-improved constitutions, and so forth are of limited worth unless the people themselves really want change. (A place like Kenya does not lack laws or institutions; what it lacks are respect for the law and the proper leadership for its institutions. And there is nothing the USA or anyone else can do about that.)
* The third generation is in light of the tremendous abuse by bodies such as the AU, w.r.t. to certain ICC cases. Who needs that? Best leave folks to sort themselves out. Increasingly, I see little enthusiasm on the part of Western countries to involve themselves in the untidier parts of African life. Such involvement is costly and the "gratitude-returns" are too little.
The last point is especially relevant to places like S. Sudan, which is now undergoing the failure-to-learn type of mayhem that all newly "independent" African countries seem to have a strong appetite for: Apart from humanitarian aid, I don't see the rest of the world doing much. Even the ICC will tread carefully despite evidence of very serious crimes. This is not especially helpful for Africa. The much-praised Kung Fu, whose "taking over" is now being praised, will never get involved in anything that does not show them profit at the end: health, nutrition, etc. Yet many Africans who owe their very existence to mosquito net and malaria medicines from the West, to generations of yellow maize from America, etc. will still pull out their willies in public and excitedly jerk-off about who is "helping" them and who is not.
There is also the notion that the USA is "fighting" the Chinese for dominance in Africa. To anyone who entertains such a notion, I would ask this: What exactly does the USA want out of Africa that it is not getting right now?
Apart from the particular aspect that is the focus of this thread, people should pay careful attention to the rest of what Obama said in various places. In a nutshell: "It's up to you folks."
I tend to think the US is just doing the same thing it has always done in Africa and elsewhere. Looking out for number one.
If anything has changed in the region that would attract more US interest than before, it would be oil. The US likes to have a level of control over major energy resources. The routes and all.
The obsession with Kung-Fu patronship tells me that the African is not ready to take responsibility for himself. It's too much work. If the west will not be his patron, he will look elsewhere.
I can't yet think of a coherent explanation for this state of affairs. It could be a legacy of hundreds of years of being told you can't do nothing worthwhile.
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If anything has changed in the region that would attract more US interest than before, it would be oil. The US likes to have a level of control over major energy resources. The routes and all.
That's probably true in general. But: (a) USA oil imports have been falling and are now probably less than what they were around 30 years ago; and it's hard to see a sudden change in the other direction. (b) To the extent that oil is the major thing, I'd expect more (and more serious) action in places like S. Sudan; but, now, on the contrary, I'd be surprised if there was any. Too many headaches.
I can't yet think of a coherent explanation for this state of affairs. It could be a legacy of hundreds of years of being told you can't do nothing worthwhile.
The seemingly endless "child helplessness" attitude is hard to understand. People stealing money from own, stashing it overseas, and then proceeding there to beg for "help". The endless finishing of each other in assorted crimes against humanity. And so on, and so forth. Everything except what is actually required to develop.
But perhaps there is an "explanation" for the Kung-Fu Love:
Chinua Achebe wrote and spoke several times on the "cargo cult mentality"---the notion in some places that people can forever keep doing bugger-all for themselves, but that, somehow, all would be well with the arrival of some foreigners bearing goodies.
See, for example, his book, The Trouble With Nigeria.
The great Chinua Achebe once described as the “cargo cult mentality” the illusion, or rather the delusion of many leaders of so-called developing countries who feel that without sustained hard work, internally, their states could somehow achieve the status of socio-political transformation that they had envisaged in many a “development programme”.
This mentality manifests in the form of a perpetual gaze across the seas, across the horizon, hoping/awaiting a “fairy ship [to] dock in their harbour laden with every goody they have always dreamed of possessing”. This gaze, as can be imagined, is frustratingly a chore that triggers bewildering ranges of emotion: … When, for instance, is this ship arriving? Where is it coming from? What will it contain that will transform our existence? More loans? More aid packages? A privatisation scheme? Oh! Is that the mast of the mysterious ship coming over the horizon – at last? Oh yeah! The ship is already here…
Good news: the goodies are here, fellow countrymen (and women, presumably!). We are now developed, We are a world power… No, not yet… We need the arrival of 3, 4, or 5 more of these ships to achieve this target. Oh dear! How long will this now take? The time span for all these arrivals will be in the order of 10 years… No, twice as long; sorry, to be more precise, 21 years… Therefore, my administration needs another term, maybe two, perhaps three, to oversee these arrivals, the offloading of the goodies, and the sustainable implementation of this multisectoral development programme!
Olseugun Obasanjo when in power:
“Nigeria will become one of the ten leading nations in the world by the end of the century”.
http://re-thinkingafrica.blogspot.ca/2011/03/cargo-cult-mentality-nigeria-and.html
(The complete article makes for interesting and useful reading, even if one does not agree with all of it.)
In some countries today, similar examples will be found in Vision 20XX plans. If one is to believe these plans---and calling them "plans" seems a bit excessive---then the very existence of the plans is a guarantee of the good stuff that is to come. All that is needed is a bit of "help", I suppose.
Soon to arrive at Dock 42: The Ming Qing Superboat?
See also:
http://nigeriapolitricks.blogspot.ca/2013/03/remembering-chinua-achebe.html
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Opposition have to give kenyans a reason to listen to them.
The current Opposition seems to believe that its role consists solely of crying "we oppose!" and "we demand step-aside!". It is lost on them that they should be trying to paint a convincing picture of a better-government-in-the-waiting. Considering some of what is going on in Nyanza, Raila himself would be more convincing if he could first Okoa Nyanza.
Kenyan history will record Raila's enormous and courageous sacrifices, while the likes of Uhuru were busy getting loaded on pot and whiskey and chasing p**sy, but ultimately his is a sort of a tragedy. And at the root of that "tragedy" is his inability or unwillingness to shake off all sorts of dodgy "advisors" and, perhaps, his readiness to even rely on them. Downed by his own chosen Lilliputians.
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Why are you surprised? RV Punda wastes most of his time in this forum claiming China has done this and that for Africa what US and British did not do for the last 100 years. He never asks what Africans have done or what they can do for themselves. Why exchange a slave master and still be proud?
China will take over Africa. British Empire in Africa has fallen generally to the Chinese.
Incredible. 50 years of "sovereign, independent, and equal"---with blood and tears expended for the "independence"---and Africans still get up to proudly and happily announce that they are being taken over, much as a young widow will tell the village that some rich, old guy is moving for the f**king. And f**king (in the rear end) is exactly what it is.
How about Africa standing up for itself and doing for itself, instead of "falling" and "being taken over"? Africans need to give up this mentality, in which they are "owned" by anyone who claims to be providing "help".
Kadudu
You may disagree with Pundit but give him his respect by calling him by his Moniker. That is what differentiates this forum from the other place. We may disagree immensely but we still remain respectful. I noticed he has already asked you once. Instead of focusing on what he spends his time on, why dont you counter those falsehoods by giving us some other perspective.
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I agree with whoever said the biggest beneficiary was Auma and ouru. Auma especially....the minute she stepped in the beast is the minute I realized what this trip was about. It was more of a personal trip to fulfill some personal or even familial promise.
He had to come back before his term ended if only to make a statement ...and to stick it to the man who left him behind. I am sure he was saying to himself "look at me now, shit stops when I come to town.....no fly zone, Nairobi almost shut down etc."
Ouru was beaming from ear to ear like a kid in a candy store or something. I thought he almost opened the door of the beast so Obama can get in. It helped that he is young, a bit quicker on his feet than his predecessors (who would have been a complete embarrassment). I mean, ouru even invited Akon into town...I am sure as he smoked his joint Sunday night he was thinking "mission accomplished."
For all the other ordinary citizens, life goes on as usual. The only thing I would have liked him to press harder on was corruption and security being that we are still under attack. There was no way he was going to bash his host....I understand, but taking a swipe at opposition doe not help anyone.
Like Termi said, they are the only ones keeping Kenya from a complete dictatorship.
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Mya88,
That was my reading too. Uhuru basically executed a coup on Obama right from the day he landed, Uhuru was there with his two sons smiling ear to ear and all the 3 days, they were holding hands, patting their backs and name it. It also helped a lot that Uhuru is 21st century leader...not a Moi or Kibaki...who thought leaders have to mumble incoherently.
If there is something this regime get it...then it PR. It is frustrating why Uhuru cannot be really hard on corruption. He has no need to steal himself.
Dr Auma became an household name in those few days. Hopefully she can use this closeness with Obama for something big.I noticed Obama forgave Malik...and Malik was somewhere in the background.
I agree with whoever said the biggest beneficiary was Auma and ouru. Auma especially....the minute she stepped in the beast is the minute I realized what this trip was about. It was more of a personal trip to fulfill some personal or even familial promise.
He had to come back before his term ended if only to make a statement ...and to stick it to the man who left him behind. I am sure he was saying to himself "look at me now, shit stops when I come to town.....no fly zone, Nairobi almost shut down etc."
Ouru was beaming from ear to ear like a kid in a candy store or something. I thought he almost opened the door of the beast so Obama can get in. It helped that he is young, a bit quicker on his feet than his predecessors (who would have been a complete embarrassment). I mean, ouru even invited Akon into town...I am sure as he smoked his joint Sunday night he was thinking "mission accomplished."
For all the other ordinary citizens, life goes on as usual. The only thing I would have liked him to press harder on was corruption and security being that we are still under attack. There was no way he was going to bash his host....I understand, but taking a swipe at opposition doe not help anyone.
Like Termi said, they are the only ones keeping Kenya from a complete dictatorship.
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Once again desist from calling me punda. You know me long enough to know you cannot intimidate me to change my viewpoints. You can persuade me with facts which rarely you have. I have made factual claims. China lending kenya more than 5B dollars in a single project is big news. And every day I praise what Kenyans themselves are doing for their country. About 1/3 my post are those highlighting the great things we are doing ourselves.
Now you, Wind city and Moonki have never recognized any kenyan effort to pull themselves or Chinese monumental help along the way. Suddenly Obama empty pockets have you guys running around claiming kenyans do not need any help.
Kenya need help. US has very little to offer. China has a lot to offer. And Kenyans themselves are doing a lot of great things and nobody is as optimistic about Kenya prospect as I am. Some of you deride that as "real estate" or "land ponzi" or "the bubble is crushing".
Meanwhile the economy continues to grow at 5-6%.
Why are you surprised? RV Punda wastes most of his time in this forum claiming China has done this and that for Africa what US and British did not do for the last 100 years. He never asks what Africans have done or what they can do for themselves. Why exchange a slave master and still be proud?
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There is no proof that Obama meant Raila. In fact Raila is last on my list of suspects. Raila wanted and asked for US mediation in 2007. Though he sat in government as PM, he had many run ins with Kibaki's retinue over appointments, the Katiba etc.
His comrades - Kalonzo and Wetangula - on the other hand made some very hawkish statements in that period.
I am not saying that it is NOT Raila and I am not saying it is him either. There is simply not enough to go by.
Martha Karua is last on the list, he used "him"to refer to the reprimanded leader
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There is no proof that Obama meant Raila. In fact Raila is last on my list of suspects. Raila wanted and asked for US mediation in 2007. Though he sat in government as PM, he had many run ins with Kibaki's retinue over appointments, the Katiba etc.
His comrades - Kalonzo and Wetangula - on the other hand made some very hawkish statements in that period.
I am not saying that it is NOT Raila and I am not saying it is him either. There is simply not enough to go by.
Maybe this should be enough:
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If anything has changed in the region that would attract more US interest than before, it would be oil. The US likes to have a level of control over major energy resources. The routes and all.
That's probably true in general. But: (a) USA oil imports have been falling and are now probably less than what they were around 30 years ago; and it's hard to see a sudden change in the other direction. (b) To the extent that oil is the major thing, I'd expect more (and more serious) action in places like S. Sudan; but, now, on the contrary, I'd be surprised if there was any. Too many headaches.
I can't yet think of a coherent explanation for this state of affairs. It could be a legacy of hundreds of years of being told you can't do nothing worthwhile.
The seemingly endless "child helplessness" attitude is hard to understand. People stealing money from own, stashing it overseas, and then proceeding there to beg for "help". The endless finishing of each other in assorted crimes against humanity. And so on, and so forth. Everything except what is actually required to develop.
But perhaps there is an "explanation" for the Kung-Fu Love:
Chinua Achebe wrote and spoke several times on the "cargo cult mentality"---the notion in some places that people can forever keep doing bugger-all for themselves, but that, somehow, all would be well with the arrival of some foreigners bearing goodies.
See, for example, his book, The Trouble With Nigeria.
The great Chinua Achebe once described as the “cargo cult mentality” the illusion, or rather the delusion of many leaders of so-called developing countries who feel that without sustained hard work, internally, their states could somehow achieve the status of socio-political transformation that they had envisaged in many a “development programme”.
This mentality manifests in the form of a perpetual gaze across the seas, across the horizon, hoping/awaiting a “fairy ship [to] dock in their harbour laden with every goody they have always dreamed of possessing”. This gaze, as can be imagined, is frustratingly a chore that triggers bewildering ranges of emotion: … When, for instance, is this ship arriving? Where is it coming from? What will it contain that will transform our existence? More loans? More aid packages? A privatisation scheme? Oh! Is that the mast of the mysterious ship coming over the horizon – at last? Oh yeah! The ship is already here…
Good news: the goodies are here, fellow countrymen (and women, presumably!). We are now developed, We are a world power… No, not yet… We need the arrival of 3, 4, or 5 more of these ships to achieve this target. Oh dear! How long will this now take? The time span for all these arrivals will be in the order of 10 years… No, twice as long; sorry, to be more precise, 21 years… Therefore, my administration needs another term, maybe two, perhaps three, to oversee these arrivals, the offloading of the goodies, and the sustainable implementation of this multisectoral development programme!
Olseugun Obasanjo when in power:
“Nigeria will become one of the ten leading nations in the world by the end of the century”.
http://re-thinkingafrica.blogspot.ca/2011/03/cargo-cult-mentality-nigeria-and.html (http://re-thinkingafrica.blogspot.ca/2011/03/cargo-cult-mentality-nigeria-and.html)
(The complete article makes for interesting and useful reading, even if one does not agree with all of it.)
In some countries today, similar examples will be found in Vision 20XX plans. If one is to believe these plans---and calling them "plans" seems a bit excessive---then the very existence of the plans is a guarantee of the good stuff that is to come. All that is needed is a bit of "help", I suppose.
Soon to arrive at Dock 42: The Ming Qing Superboat?
See also:
http://nigeriapolitricks.blogspot.ca/2013/03/remembering-chinua-achebe.html (http://nigeriapolitricks.blogspot.ca/2013/03/remembering-chinua-achebe.html)
Reading Chinua, though something of an Igbo tribalist, brings some interesting insights. One realizes, that everything that has happened in anywhere in Africa, forms a part and parcel of Nigerian history. Genocide, corruption, coups, ethnic clashes, economic booms, you name it. They have seen it all. And stoically refused to learn from it.
The Kung-fu obsession would make sense if these folks were imparting skills and knowledge so they wont be needed every time something needs to be built. There are Kenyan engineers all over the place building infrastructure for other people.
I recall reading something about how the Japanese learnt their craft from the Americans and made it their own. They literally had to ape the west to modernize. It takes a lot of investment, discipline and integrity to build that kind of capacity.
Thanks for the links. I'll check them out when I get a chance.
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Reading Chinua, though something of an Igbo tribalist, brings some interesting insights. One realizes, that everything that has happened in anywhere in Africa, forms a part and parcel of Nigerian history.
"The Trouble With Nigeria" could just as well be "The Trouble With X" [X=your favorite African country]
The Kung-fu obsession would make sense if these folks were imparting skills and knowledge so they wont be needed every time something needs to be built.
In the excitement, it appears that not many are thinking of such things. But Kung Fu certainly is: I have been told that we are not even expected to be able to maintain the stuff---which is hard to argue with of one looks at history---and Kung Fu expects to be on-call (paid) even after things are done.
I recall reading something about how the Japanese learnt their craft from the Americans and made it their own. They literally had to ape the west to modernize.
And there is no better "demonstration" of that than in kaizen---roughly, the notion that nothing, however small, is ever done with and continuous improvement is always possible. That is what the Japanese really mastered in the second half of the 20th century, and it largely explains the astounding levels of quality in many of their industrial products---to the extent that even Americans marvel at this kaizen thing, and many, from all over the world, seek to study, understand, and apply this "oriental method". The odd thing about that is the fundamental ideas of kaizen were introduced into Japan by the Americans in the immediate post-war period. The Japanese simply "took it to the next level". Just compare, say, Toyota and the American car manufacturers, 50 years ago and now.
Beyond "manufacturing philosophies", take a look at one "concrete" aspect: electronics. Solid-state electronics is almost entirely an American invention, yet the Japanese managed to pick it up and run away with it. Who makes, say, TVs in America these days? The Japanese killed that segment of American industry, and, contrary to what many think, it wasn't just on pricing. Kaizen was applied to get a "zero defect" in manufacturing. And today, the South Koreans are wiping off what's left off the TV industry elsewhere; I have been to some South Korean "consumer-electronics trade shows seen amazing prototypes. (Chinese will do cheap anything, but for quality electronics even they prefer Japanese products first and South Korean second.)
discipline and integrity
Keywords. And they make a huge, huge difference. I shall save my comments for another, more relevant, thread but the words really come to mind when I think of places like Japan and South Korea.
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Reading Chinua, though something of an Igbo tribalist, brings some interesting insights. One realizes, that everything that has happened in anywhere in Africa, forms a part and parcel of Nigerian history.
"The Trouble With Nigeria" could just as well be "The Trouble With X" [X=your favorite African country]
The Kung-fu obsession would make sense if these folks were imparting skills and knowledge so they wont be needed every time something needs to be built.
In the excitement, it appears that not many are thinking of such things. But Kung Fu certainly is: I have been told that we are not even expected to be able to maintain the stuff---which is hard to argue with of one looks at history---and Kung Fu expects to be on-call (paid) even after things are done.
I recall reading something about how the Japanese learnt their craft from the Americans and made it their own. They literally had to ape the west to modernize.
And there is no better "demonstration" of that than in kaizen---roughly, the notion that nothing, however small, is ever done with and continuous improvement is always possible. That is what the Japanese really mastered in the second half of the 20th century, and it largely explains the astounding levels of quality in many of their industrial products---to the extent that even Americans marvel at this kaizen thing, and many, from all over the world, seek to study, understand, and apply this "oriental method". The odd thing about that is the fundamental ideas of kaizen, as we know it today (i.e. in manufacturing), were introduced into Japan by the Americans in the immediate post-war period; before that, in Japan, the closest approach would have been in the making of samurai swords, noodles, etc. The Japanese simply "took it to the next level". Just compare, say, Toyota and the American car manufacturers, 50 years ago and now.
Beyond "manufacturing philosophies", take a look at one "concrete" aspect: electronics. Solid-state electronics is almost entirely an American invention, yet the Japanese managed to pick it up and run away with it. Who makes, say, TVs in America these days? The Japanese killed that segment of American industry ages, and, contrary to what many think, it wasn't just on pricing. Kaizen was applied to get a "zero defect" in manufacturing. And today, the South Koreans are wiping off what's left off the TV industry elsewhere; I have been to some South Korean "consumer-electronics trade shows seen amazing prototypes. (Chinese will do cheap anything, but for quality electronics even they prefer Japanese products first and South Korean second.)
discipline and integrity
Keywords. And they make a huge, huge difference. I shall save my comments for another, more relevant, thread but the words really come to mind when I think of places like Japan and South Korea.
Thanks for the links. I'll check them out when I get a chance.
The whole "Rethinking Africa" blog is generally good value. We need a serious re-think. Give up this idea that others, who are first and foremost looking out for themselves, will "help" and "take care" of us. Give up this idea that it's all bad climate, bad gods, bad history, bad luck, etc. Take a hard, honest look and admit: "this is where we are, these are our alleged leaders, these are the things we need to change, ...". And without fanciful dreams of Vision XXXX, Afrika Rising, blah blah blah. A genuinely hard look and self-examination.
Nobody will do it for us.
There was a time when our ancestors gave away all sorts of things in return for shiny bits of glass or for black books of "holy word", and they were sure they were getting a great deal. And here we are today: where mzungu once did the "saving", today it's supposedly Kung Fu. We need it be careful about getting suckered again: if others appear to giving it away, what returns do they have in mind for themselves. What lies at the end of the shiny tarmac on that new road or at the end of those rail-lines that fly over the animals?
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China lending kenya more than 5B dollars in a single project is big news.
There's the bit about China doubting Kenya's ability to pay and insisting on very costly insurance (to be paid to Kung Fu). Your attitude reminds me of Kenyans who land overseas for the first time: they get a couple of credit cards and immediately think they have real money of their own; free money from ...! Two years down the road ...
Try to look beyond the mere fact that Kenya can borrow money; the Greeks managed to do more than 5B, so did the Argentinians before them, so did ...
Now you, Wind city and Moonki have never recognized any kenyan effort to pull themselves
Every single week I read, in the Kenyan papers, of one huge corruption scandal after another. Week after week. Public money stolen while the begging and borrowing goes on. Some kind of pulling oneself up!
And it's the same story all over the continent: endless theft, gazillions stashed overseas, but forever sucking wieners for a relatively small loan and getting down on the knee to express gratitude for "help". Anglo Leasing, Goldenburg, and all that ... how many billions is that?
Some of you deride that as "real estate" or "land ponzi" or "the bubble is crushing".
I take it Konza City has gone beyond Lego-Land images and that Vision 2030 has moved backed into this century? If so, weka evidence hapa hapa. Are Kenyans even building their reliable roads yet?
Meanwhile the economy continues to grow at 5-6%.
And the people's welfare?
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Obama read the riot act to Raila. I know Omollo disagrees. I think the Obama, who has no idea what it means to oppose an African dictoatorship, came into Agwambo's backyard and seriously disrespected the father of democracy in Kenya. Telling him that he should support the government of thieves and not antagonize it, or so I read.
While Obama castigates the leader of the opposition, the auditor-general has other ideas. The question is whether his opinion ever matters.
Auditor puts ministries on the spot over missing documents for Sh66.7bn deals
The Auditor-General has raised the red flag on the questionable spending of Sh66.7 billion by 17 ministries and state departments in the last financial year.
In his report for the 2013-2014 financial year, Auditor-General Edward Ouko, said the money may have been illegally used because the concerned authorities failed to produce any documents to authenticate how the money was spent.
The money is part of a massive Sh450 billion in unsupported expenditures. The national budget for the year reviewed was Sh1.3 trillion.
http://www.nation.co.ke/news/Use-of-Sh67-billion-queried-by-auditor/-/1056/2812504/-/9tuo4uz/-/index.html (http://www.nation.co.ke/news/Use-of-Sh67-billion-queried-by-auditor/-/1056/2812504/-/9tuo4uz/-/index.html)
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"Build it and they'll come"
They haven't even started building the road to konza!!
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Obama recalls a conversation with one opposition groups. They wanted him to be "hard" on gov. Obama reminded him that recently he was in gov and he wanted him to respect gov sovereignty.
Admit US was previously involved but now that has changed.
I guess this is what Obama meant:
Mr Ranneberger's comments drew immediate anger from Raila Odinga, Kenya's prime minister.
"We don't need lectures on how to govern ourselves. Lecturing us on issues that deal with governance and transparency is in bad taste," Mr Odinga said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/kenya/5979171/Dont-lecture-us-Kenyan-PM-tells-US-as-Hillary-Clinton-begins-Africa-tour.html
Raila is the least likely of the three that Obama was referring to. Other than this one bone-headed statement by the excitable play-to-the- gallery Raila, the guy was generally pro-West and pro-America.
So making an educated guess going by the people who were in government or power during the said period when Kenyan government policy was pronouncedly anti-America, two people stand out. Kalonzo was the VP, who also moonlighted as a roving ambassador hectoring folks in Washington DC and London. Wetangula was the belligerent Foreign Affairs Minister during that period. Karua was equally hawkish but she is not a he.