Nipate
Forum => Controversial => Topic started by: vooke on April 17, 2015, 04:35:49 PM
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The RSA 'prophecy'
The Garissa 'prophecy'
Some Batman help put this psycho out of his misery by blowing off his head with an IED asap
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So tell me, is he not guilty of either conspiring with Al Shabaab; Withholding information that could avert a crime or plain deception? Why is it that these so called predictions only appear post factor and are heavily edited to suit the narrative?
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TB Joshua is doing good as far as prophets go. He just lives in more demanding times where his prophecies are recorded verbatim. He doesn't have much wiggle room. Compare this to prophecies made 2,000 years ago when more than 90% of the world had no internet.
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They was required to WRITE and share asap
TB Joshua is doing good as far as prophets go. He just lives in more demanding times where his prophecies are recorded verbatim. He doesn't have much wiggle room. Compare this to prophecies made 2,000 years ago when more than 90% of the world had no internet.
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How come TB Joshua didn't predict the collapse of his church hotel that cost 64 parishioners their lives.
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They was required to WRITE and share asap
TB Joshua is doing good as far as prophets go. He just lives in more demanding times where his prophecies are recorded verbatim. He doesn't have much wiggle room. Compare this to prophecies made 2,000 years ago when more than 90% of the world had no internet.
Mhhhh...an illiterate writing on a papyrus scroll and sharing ASAP with the nearest illiterate shepherd. Waiting 2,000 years before rational inquiry. By which time he is long gone.
TB Josh will take that over the unforgiving youtube.
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Temper your skepticism with some reason
Mhhhh...an illiterate writing on a papyrus scroll and sharing ASAP with the nearest illiterate shepherd. Waiting 2,000 years before rational inquiry. By which time he is long gone.
TB Josh will take that over the unforgiving youtube.
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Temper your skepticism with some reason
Mhhhh...an illiterate writing on a papyrus scroll and sharing ASAP with the nearest illiterate shepherd. Waiting 2,000 years before rational inquiry. By which time he is long gone.
TB Josh will take that over the unforgiving youtube.
Reason tells me that most people in the Neolithic were illiterate.
How many prophets are known to have been literate?
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Reason tells me illiterates writing is oxyMORONic
Temper your skepticism with some reason
Mhhhh...an illiterate writing on a papyrus scroll and sharing ASAP with the nearest illiterate shepherd. Waiting 2,000 years before rational inquiry. By which time he is long gone.
TB Josh will take that over the unforgiving youtube.
Reason tells me that most people in the Neolithic were illiterate.
How many prophets are known to have been literate?
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Reason tells me illiterates writing is oxyMORONic
Temper your skepticism with some reason
Mhhhh...an illiterate writing on a papyrus scroll and sharing ASAP with the nearest illiterate shepherd. Waiting 2,000 years before rational inquiry. By which time he is long gone.
TB Josh will take that over the unforgiving youtube.
Reason tells me that most people in the Neolithic were illiterate.
How many prophets are known to have been literate?
Yes.
For me it leaves one conclusion. Neolithic prophecies weren't written down ASAP.
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How old is writing?
Reason tells me illiterates writing is oxyMORONic
Temper your skepticism with some reason
Mhhhh...an illiterate writing on a papyrus scroll and sharing ASAP with the nearest illiterate shepherd. Waiting 2,000 years before rational inquiry. By which time he is long gone.
TB Josh will take that over the unforgiving youtube.
Reason tells me that most people in the Neolithic were illiterate.
How many prophets are known to have been literate?
Yes.
For me it leaves one conclusion. Neolithic prophecies weren't written down ASAP.
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How old is writing?
While I don't have an exact number. Thousands of years should be in the ballpark.
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Ok, thanks
How old is writing?
While I don't have an exact number. Thousands of years should be in the ballpark.
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Ok, thanks
How old is writing?
While I don't have an exact number. Thousands of years should be in the ballpark.
Here is a wikipedia article on the same http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_writing. It can be traced to around 4,000 BC give or take a few hundred.
It's not even clear to me if Jesus Christ was literate.
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He surely could not grab a YouTube clip using scripts unlike Termie
Ok, thanks
How old is writing?
While I don't have an exact number. Thousands of years should be in the ballpark.
Here is a wikipedia article on the same http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_writing. It can be traced to around 4,000 BC give or take a few hundred.
It's not even clear to me if Jesus Christ was literate.
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He surely could not grab a YouTube clip using scripts unlike Termie
Ok, thanks
How old is writing?
While I don't have an exact number. Thousands of years should be in the ballpark.
Here is a wikipedia article on the same http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_writing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_writing). It can be traced to around 4,000 BC give or take a few hundred.
It's not even clear to me if Jesus Christ was literate.
My best guess is that would be correct.
Even though writing is long established during his time. I would be surprised if literacy was more widespread than in West Pokot.
If one is to take a prophet from West Pokot more seriously than TB Josh because a semi-naked Pokot with an AK-47 has vouched for his stories...well it's the human condition.
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He was as literate any other first century rabbi. What levels of national literacy levels to make Jesus believable? Do a quick comparison. What was the literacy levels in Shakespearan Britain?
Look, there are very many more 'sensible' reasons for skepticism; Jesus literacy is the least of them not that it holds any water. Some smart guys actually deny his existence. We have Holocaust deniers, Al Qaeda deniers....We also have AIDS deniers. Denial is cool
My best guess is that would be correct.
Even though writing is long established during his time. I would be surprised if literacy was more widespread than in West Pokot.
If one is to take a prophet from West Pokot more seriously than TB Josh because a semi-naked Pokot with an AK-47 has vouched for his stories...well it's the human condition.
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He was as literate any other first century rabbi. What levels of national literacy levels to make Jesus believable? Do a quick comparison. What was the literacy levels in Shakespearan Britain?
Look, there are very many more 'sensible' reasons for skepticism; Jesus literacy is the least of them not that it holds any water. Some smart guys actually deny his existence. We have Holocaust deniers, Al Qaeda deniers....We also have AIDS deniers. Denial is cool
My best guess is that would be correct.
Even though writing is long established during his time. I would be surprised if literacy was more widespread than in West Pokot.
If one is to take a prophet from West Pokot more seriously than TB Josh because a semi-naked Pokot with an AK-47 has vouched for his stories...well it's the human condition.
He might well have been literate. He argues scriptures with other rabbis. Will I be caught arguing that these were rational folks? Far from it. TB Josh lives in harsh times.
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What informs your guess on his illiteracy? Or is it a wild guess
He might well have been literate. He argues scriptures with other rabbis. Will I be caught arguing that these were rational folks? Far from it. TB Josh lives in harsh times.
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What informs your guess on his illiteracy? Or is it a wild guess
He might well have been literate. He argues scriptures with other rabbis. Will I be caught arguing that these were rational folks? Far from it. TB Josh lives in harsh times.
He was a carpenter. I just assumed a carpenter in the first century was illiterate.
I cannot argue that TB Josh has it easier or even as easy as a preacher in the first century.
When I think of what TB Josh could do with a first century audience, I cannot easily suppress laughter.
Now give him 2,000 years lag time and I wont go there. I value my ribs.
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Who says Jesus was a carpenter?
He was a carpenter. I just assumed a carpenter in the first century was illiterate.
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Who says Jesus was a carpenter?
He was a carpenter. I just assumed a carpenter in the first century was illiterate.
I did.
Regardless. There is nothing remotely resembling youtube that vooke and others would have relied upon to get a proper measure of the man.
It is not a stretch to say that some have changed their views on TB Josh because of the power of the internet.
Prophets in the Neolithic and even as recent as the seventies did not have to grapple with that kind of medium.
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Who says Jesus was a carpenter?
He was a carpenter. I just assumed a carpenter in the first century was illiterate.
I did.
Regardless. There is nothing remotely resembling youtube that vooke and others would have relied upon to get a proper measure of the man.
It is not a stretch to say that some have changed their views on TB Josh because of the power of the internet.
Prophets in the Neolithic and even as recent as the seventies did not have to grapple with that kind of medium.
Why did you say he was a carpenter?
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Who says Jesus was a carpenter?
He was a carpenter. I just assumed a carpenter in the first century was illiterate.
I did.
Regardless. There is nothing remotely resembling youtube that vooke and others would have relied upon to get a proper measure of the man.
It is not a stretch to say that some have changed their views on TB Josh because of the power of the internet.
Prophets in the Neolithic and even as recent as the seventies did not have to grapple with that kind of medium.
Why did you say he was a carpenter?
I thought he was one.
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Why would you think such? Any basis or was it just a hunch?
I thought he was one.
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Why would you think such? Any basis or was it just a hunch?
I thought he was one.
Memories. Dim from childhood. I believe the primate's dad was one too.
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The ancients had a system of scribes. Writing was a special skill that one had to learn. Usually it is the monks who learned the trade and then made use of it to finance their monastery. With the rise of many sects and religions, this became a liability as many scripts were altered and edited to conform to certain values, politics or beliefs.
There were hobby writers and people who had studied other things. For example Luke was a doctor who became a Christian and wrote about Jesus unfortunately six or more decades after he lived and died. While James may have been literate and wrote, he was either not as prolific and Paul, lacked the money to pay for publishing (meaning using monks and scribes to produce multiple copies) or was sabotaged.
I will stop there before I run afoul of vooke, DB, Bella etc. I may find time to read more theology but right now it is one huge gap in my intellect. I stopped studying it further to remain God fearing.
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The ancients had a system of scribes. Writing was a special skill that one had to learn. Usually it is the monks who learned the trade and then made use of it to finance their monastery. With the rise of many sects and religions, this became a liability as many scripts were altered and edited to conform to certain values, politics or beliefs.
There were hobby writers and people who had studied other things. For example Luke was a doctor who became a Christian and wrote about Jesus unfortunately six or more decades after he lived and died. While James may have been literate and wrote, he was either not as prolific and Paul, lacked the money to pay for publishing (meaning using monks and scribes to produce multiple copies) or was sabotaged.
I will stop there before I run afoul of vooke, DB, Bella etc. I may find time to read more theology but right now it is one huge gap in my intellect. I stopped studying it further to remain God fearing.
That was my thinking too. That it was something only a few learned. But it appears Jesus may have learned to read and write at some point, if there are no surviving works directly attributed to him.
For me, the interesting part is the period between say Adam and Jesus. Thousands of years. With all due respect to the faithful who believe it is divinely inspired literature, who writes these stories?
vooke would seem to suggest the prophets, to pick a random example, write down their prophecies ASAP. My wonder is if there is evidence for or against that.
Your point on bias is well taken. One does not need to go much further back than even a decade, let alone thousands of years, to realize just how much a story, tv, internet, written evidence notwithstanding, can change.
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The books of the Bible was written over different spans of time, Malachi for instance, the traditionally last book of the Old Testament was written some 460 years before Matthew the first book of the New Testament.
The Old Testament earliest books, Job and the Pentateuch are usually ascribed to Moses. Internal evidence suggest Moses was well taught in the Egyptian culture which of course include writing. External evidence? Let's first look at the OLDEST Old Testament manuscripts
http://www.truthnet.org/Bible-Origins/10_Old-Testament-Tanakh-Manuscripts/
The OLDEST manuscripts are 850BC. Much as you may look down on these ancient people, they had elaborate means, both Jewish and pagan, of preserving knowledge and religious writings. Each of the book had an author, audience, dating and all that. I think you'd need a degree in theology to access evidence for and against each book on its own.
I aksd you about Jesus' vocation and clearly you have no answer. If you can tell my why you think he was a carpenter, then we can look at his literacy
That was my thinking too. That it was something only a few learned. But it appears Jesus may have learned to read and write at some point, if there are no surviving works directly attributed to him.
For me, the interesting part is the period between say Adam and Jesus. Thousands of years. With all due respect to the faithful who believe it is divinely inspired literature, who writes these stories?
vooke would seem to suggest the prophets, to pick a random example, write down their prophecies ASAP. My wonder is if there is evidence for or against that.
Your point on bias is well taken. One does not need to go much further back than even a decade, let alone thousands of years, to realize just how much a story, tv, internet, written evidence notwithstanding, can change.
-
The books of the Bible was written over different spans of time, Malachi for instance, the traditionally last book of the Old Testament was written some 460 years before Matthew the first book of the New Testament.
The Old Testament earliest books, Job and the Pentateuch are usually ascribed to Moses. Internal evidence suggest Moses was well taught in the Egyptian culture which of course include writing. External evidence? Let's first look at the OLDEST Old Testament manuscripts
http://www.truthnet.org/Bible-Origins/10_Old-Testament-Tanakh-Manuscripts/
The OLDEST manuscripts are 850BC. Much as you may look down on these ancient people, they had elaborate means, both Jewish and pagan, of preserving knowledge and religious writings. Each of the book had an author, audience, dating and all that. I think you'd need a degree in theology to access evidence for and against each book on its own.
I aksd you about Jesus' vocation and clearly you have no answer. If you can tell my why you think he was a carpenter, then we can look at his literacy
That was my thinking too. That it was something only a few learned. But it appears Jesus may have learned to read and write at some point, if there are no surviving works directly attributed to him.
For me, the interesting part is the period between say Adam and Jesus. Thousands of years. With all due respect to the faithful who believe it is divinely inspired literature, who writes these stories?
vooke would seem to suggest the prophets, to pick a random example, write down their prophecies ASAP. My wonder is if there is evidence for or against that.
Your point on bias is well taken. One does not need to go much further back than even a decade, let alone thousands of years, to realize just how much a story, tv, internet, written evidence notwithstanding, can change.
You already have your answers. On why I think the primate was a carpenter. Why I think he may have been literate or otherwise.
If there were any further relevant point to be made about it, I believe it would have been made by now.
Do you have any dates, exact or estimated, for the period that Moses lived in? When he was born/died. I want to relate that to 850BC.
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vooke,
Jewish sources place Moses between 1393BC and 1273BC http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/73398/jewish/Moses.htm (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/73398/jewish/Moses.htm).
423 years between his death and the oldest manuscripts(850BC) by your reckoning. Is it reasonable to suggest that these particular manuscripts are the work of someone other than Moses?
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Termie,
Absence of older manuscripts don't mean they was non-existent. Qumran caves discovered 100 years ago gave us manuscripts over 1000 years (need to confirm) older than the earliest existing manuscripts.
Skeptics 100 years ago before Qumran applying your logic may have argued that the 1000 years gap closed by the discovery was full of....NOTHING!
vooke,
Jewish sources place Moses between 1393BC and 1273BC http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/73398/jewish/Moses.htm (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/73398/jewish/Moses.htm).
423 years between his death and the oldest manuscripts(850BC) by your reckoning. Is it reasonable to suggest that these particular manuscripts are the work of someone other than Moses?
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Termie,
Absence of older manuscripts don't mean they was non-existent. Qumran caves discovered 100 years ago gave us manuscripts over 1000 years (need to confirm) older than the earliest existing manuscripts.
Skeptics 100 years ago before Qumran applying your logic may have argued that the 1000 years gap closed by the discovery was full of....NOTHING!
vooke,
Jewish sources place Moses between 1393BC and 1273BC http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/73398/jewish/Moses.htm (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/73398/jewish/Moses.htm).
423 years between his death and the oldest manuscripts(850BC) by your reckoning. Is it reasonable to suggest that these particular manuscripts are the work of someone other than Moses?
Moses did not produce these particular manuscripts. Do older ones exist? I have not touched that question at all. It would be interesting to see some evidence.
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Who says Jesus was a carpenter?
He was a carpenter. I just assumed a carpenter in the first century was illiterate.
I did.
Regardless. There is nothing remotely resembling youtube that vooke and others would have relied upon to get a proper measure of the man.
It is not a stretch to say that some have changed their views on TB Josh because of the power of the internet.
Prophets in the Neolithic and even as recent as the seventies did not have to grapple with that kind of medium.
Well, Jesus certainly did not have to deal with youtube. He just had to deal with powerful religious leaders who not only did not believe him but who made an enemy out of him and certainly had resources to disprove the man's claims and those of his followers, a feat that should have been very easy to accomplish given all the claims about what Jesus did "PUBLICLY" with thousands of witnesses. On top of these enemies, his followers also had to deal with Romans, who liked to make sure that death-row victims stayed dead after executions. Not youtube, sure, but effective enough to have vanquished all claimants to the "Jewish messiah" office so well, in those centuries, that you have never heard of them...."all", that is, except Jesus of Nazareth, whom they executed.
Also, Malachi is not "traditionally the last book of the Old Testament". That is just one view, certainly not the traditional Christian view, in any sense of the word "traditional". That said, however, I believe the Old Testament on the basis of my belief in Jesus of Nazareth and the Gospels of his followers.
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Termie,
Absence of older manuscripts don't mean they was non-existent. Qumran caves discovered 100 years ago gave us manuscripts over 1000 years (need to confirm) older than the earliest existing manuscripts.
Skeptics 100 years ago before Qumran applying your logic may have argued that the 1000 years gap closed by the discovery was full of....NOTHING!
vooke,
Jewish sources place Moses between 1393BC and 1273BC http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/73398/jewish/Moses.htm (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/73398/jewish/Moses.htm).
423 years between his death and the oldest manuscripts(850BC) by your reckoning. Is it reasonable to suggest that these particular manuscripts are the work of someone other than Moses?
Moses did not produce these particular manuscripts. Do older ones exist? I have not touched that question at all. It would be interesting to see some evidence.
How do you know?
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Who says Jesus was a carpenter?
He was a carpenter. I just assumed a carpenter in the first century was illiterate.
I did.
Regardless. There is nothing remotely resembling youtube that vooke and others would have relied upon to get a proper measure of the man.
It is not a stretch to say that some have changed their views on TB Josh because of the power of the internet.
Prophets in the Neolithic and even as recent as the seventies did not have to grapple with that kind of medium.
Well, Jesus certainly did not have to deal with youtube. He just had to deal with powerful religious leaders who not only did not believe him but who made an enemy out of him and certainly had resources to disprove the man's claims and those of his followers, a feat that should have been very easy to accomplish given all the claims about what Jesus did "PUBLICLY" with thousands of witnesses. On top of these enemies, his followers also had to deal with Romans, who liked to make sure that death-row victims stayed dead after executions. Not youtube, sure, but effective enough to have vanquished all claimants to the "Jewish messiah" office so well, in those centuries, that you have never heard of them...."all", that is, except Jesus of Nazareth, whom they executed.
Also, Malachi is not "traditionally the last book of the Old Testament". That is just one view, certainly not the traditional Christian view, in any sense of the word "traditional". That said, however, I believe the Old Testament on the basis of my belief in Jesus of Nazareth and the Gospels of his followers.
Bella,
I am sure you believe without a doubt the things the church teaches about Jesus. I am not sure you understood the point I am making to vooke though. vooke is embarrassed by these prophets.
His beef with TB Josh and other prophets just boils down to the fact that their claims do not meet his stringent evidentiary standards. Standards he can NEVER apply to claims made in the Bible.
I would extend the saying of Mark 6:4 to include the temporal dimension.
But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honor, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house, and in his own time.
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Termie,
Absence of older manuscripts don't mean they was non-existent. Qumran caves discovered 100 years ago gave us manuscripts over 1000 years (need to confirm) older than the earliest existing manuscripts.
Skeptics 100 years ago before Qumran applying your logic may have argued that the 1000 years gap closed by the discovery was full of....NOTHING!
vooke,
Jewish sources place Moses between 1393BC and 1273BC http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/73398/jewish/Moses.htm (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/73398/jewish/Moses.htm).
423 years between his death and the oldest manuscripts(850BC) by your reckoning. Is it reasonable to suggest that these particular manuscripts are the work of someone other than Moses?
Moses did not produce these particular manuscripts. Do older ones exist? I have not touched that question at all. It would be interesting to see some evidence.
How do you know?
I am assuming that he is dead 423 years when the oldest of these particular manuscripts is written.
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Who says Jesus was a carpenter?
He was a carpenter. I just assumed a carpenter in the first century was illiterate.
I did.
Regardless. There is nothing remotely resembling youtube that vooke and others would have relied upon to get a proper measure of the man.
It is not a stretch to say that some have changed their views on TB Josh because of the power of the internet.
Prophets in the Neolithic and even as recent as the seventies did not have to grapple with that kind of medium.
Well, Jesus certainly did not have to deal with youtube. He just had to deal with powerful religious leaders who not only did not believe him but who made an enemy out of him and certainly had resources to disprove the man's claims and those of his followers, a feat that should have been very easy to accomplish given all the claims about what Jesus did "PUBLICLY" with thousands of witnesses. On top of these enemies, his followers also had to deal with Romans, who liked to make sure that death-row victims stayed dead after executions. Not youtube, sure, but effective enough to have vanquished all claimants to the "Jewish messiah" office so well, in those centuries, that you have never heard of them...."all", that is, except Jesus of Nazareth, whom they executed.
Also, Malachi is not "traditionally the last book of the Old Testament". That is just one view, certainly not the traditional Christian view, in any sense of the word "traditional". That said, however, I believe the Old Testament on the basis of my belief in Jesus of Nazareth and the Gospels of his followers.
Bella,
I am sure you believe without a doubt the things the church teaches about Jesus. I am not sure you understood the point I am making to vooke though. vooke is embarrassed by these prophets.
His beef with TB Josh and other prophets just boils down to the fact that their claims do not meet his stringent evidentiary standards. Standards he can NEVER apply to claims made in the Bible.
I would extend the saying of Mark 6:4 to include the temporal dimension.
But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honor, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house, and in his own time.
Termie,
You are making wild claims. Show me a single specific prophet and a specific prophecy of theirs that would not meet my standards. You have 24 to pick from. Make my evening
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Termie,
You are making wild claims. Show me a single specific prophet and a specific prophecy of theirs that would not meet my standards. You have 24 to pick from. Make my evening
All of them don't have youtube clips where they could appear to be fumbling around tweaking prophecies to match events.
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Termie,
You are making wild claims. Show me a single specific prophet and a specific prophecy of theirs that would not meet my standards. You have 24 to pick from. Make my evening
All of them don't have youtube clips where they could appear to be fumbling around tweaking prophecies to match events.
I aksd for a single of them and of him, a single prophecy. Of course you have none. Am not surprised. You have none....just vague generalities
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Termie,
You are making wild claims. Show me a single specific prophet and a specific prophecy of theirs that would not meet my standards. You have 24 to pick from. Make my evening
All of them don't have youtube clips where they could appear to be fumbling around tweaking prophecies to match events.
I aksd for a single of them and of him, a single prophecy. Of course you have none. Am not surprised. You have none....just vague generalities
You asked for one. You got 24. And some more, if you count prophets before the youtube era. You should be spoilt for choice.
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Termie,
You are making wild claims. Show me a single specific prophet and a specific prophecy of theirs that would not meet my standards. You have 24 to pick from. Make my evening
All of them don't have youtube clips where they could appear to be fumbling around tweaking prophecies to match events.
I aksd for a single of them and of him, a single prophecy. Of course you have none. Am not surprised. You have none....just vague generalities
You asked for one. You got 24. And some more, if you count prophets before the youtube era. You should be spoilt for choice.
One biblical one whose prophecies would never stand scrutiny. I could have asked a prophecy from each but I made it easy for you. Just one prophet and his prophecy. You are not given to irrational statement so I wonder what went down