Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: RV Pundit on May 13, 2025, 03:12:22 PM
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Some of the young men of the tribe who have
travelled widely as migrant labourers and livestock traders
have their own ideas about the linguistic affinities of the Sonjo.
They state that linguistic communications are established
more easily with the Meru of Mount Kenya (a tribe related
closely to the Kikuyu) than with other Bantu tribes of northern
Tanganyika or Kenya, and therefore postulate a close relation-
ship between the two languages.
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You broke off Gusii-Kuria
Became Datoga-Iraqw Maasai slaves - Ba-temi (Temi is kalenjin for digging)
Escaped to Mt kenya
Leaving the Sonjos.
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Really, unfortunately facts points otherwise
Does the language below if you listen to it sound Meru?
https://www.google.com/search?q=sonjo+language&client=ms-opera-mini-android&channel=new
As far as research goes they are close to Kikuyu, No meru history states.or mentions them
Pundit where do you get your sources??? Mogusii also says they are related to Merus but No Meru history Mentions them
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This paper is a selective synopsis of an article that will appear in volumes 12/13 of 'Sprache und Geschichte in Afrika'. It also presents additional information which was gathered during fieldwork in the Sonjo area (northern Tanzania) in 1992 and which has led the authors to modify their previous views in places. The paper focuses on those aspects of Sonjo which bear on Engaruka, situated at the dry foot of the rift escarpment between Lake Natron and Lake Manyara, Tanzania. First, a genetic connection for the Sonjo language and a migration pattern for the Sonjo people are established. The authors show that Sonjo is a member of the so-called E50 group, that is the Bantu languages of Central Kenya, and in particular a southern subgrouping. From this they conclude that the ancestral Sonjo community moved south from the general area of the Central Kenya Highlands. Using linguistic arguments, they then show that Sonjo's most significant contacts had been with a Datooga community (southern Nilotic). The Sonjo and the Datooga are the most likely candidates for having introduced irrigation. However, the evidence suggests that neither brought the system with them. It was set up in situ, most likely by the ancestors of the Sonjo. Finally, the authors argue that the Sonjo are the best current candidates for the former Engaruka community, which was abandoned two or three hundred years ago. Bibliogr., notes
There language is close to daatooga so they are kinda southern nilotic
https://www.africabib.org/rec.php?RID=125213816
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Thagicus is backward scrolling Sonjos.
Thagicus is split into two.
Kikiyu group - include meru & embus
Kamba group - include Dhasio & Segejus of Tanzania
What that mean is you've added more loanwords from Athi/Umba (Kalenjin), Maasai, Samburu, chaggas
Whoever you meet in your journey from Sonjos area.
Really, unfortunately facts points otherwise
Does the language below if you listen to it sound Meru?
https://www.google.com/search?q=sonjo+language&client=ms-opera-mini-android&channel=new
As far as research goes they are close to Kikuyu, No meru history states.or mentions them
Pundit where do you get your sources??? Mogusii also says they are related to Merus but No Meru history Mentions them
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This silly.
It opposite.
It thagicu that moved North.
Sonjo didnt move back.
Sonjo-Thagicu had lived with Dagota-Iraqw in Tanzania - and we see it with Loan words.
Loan words for Donkey, Rhino, Wilderbest, circumscion - these are animals that were new to you bantus - who managed to cross the Serengeti animal kindgom.
They Thagicu-Sonjo all copied from Datoga.
Donkey for example is Digiri (Datoga) - kalenjin is slightly different - Sigiriet.
Then as they get to Mt Kenya.
Thagicu start to borrow from Kalenjin living there (Dorobo/Gumba/umba/lumbwa)
We see Thagicu borrow Mutarakwa - cypress - from Kalenjin - as it grows in that region.
And many others word.
Then of course you borrowed from Maasai, Borana and Mijikendas too.
And Chagaa-Taitas.
Sonjos are well known in Kipsigis.
They have lived with Kipsigis-Datoga --- Kipisigis had contact with TZ Datoga - friendly terms.
Sonjoek is nick-name for 'smart or mjanja' in kipsigis - I guess they were as craft as kikuyus.
Bringing us to Meru migration story.
I think it borrowed from Kalenjin-Datooga.
It very similar of being imprisoned by red people (kipyayamugen or something)
This paper is a selective synopsis of an article that will appear in volumes 12/13 of 'Sprache und Geschichte in Afrika'. It also presents additional information which was gathered during fieldwork in the Sonjo area (northern Tanzania) in 1992 and which has led the authors to modify their previous views in places. The paper focuses on those aspects of Sonjo which bear on Engaruka, situated at the dry foot of the rift escarpment between Lake Natron and Lake Manyara, Tanzania. First, a genetic connection for the Sonjo language and a migration pattern for the Sonjo people are established. The authors show that Sonjo is a member of the so-called E50 group, that is the Bantu languages of Central Kenya, and in particular a southern subgrouping. From this they conclude that the ancestral Sonjo community moved south from the general area of the Central Kenya Highlands. Using linguistic arguments, they then show that Sonjo's most significant contacts had been with a Datooga community (southern Nilotic). The Sonjo and the Datooga are the most likely candidates for having introduced irrigation. However, the evidence suggests that neither brought the system with them. It was set up in situ, most likely by the ancestors of the Sonjo. Finally, the authors argue that the Sonjo are the best current candidates for the former Engaruka community, which was abandoned two or three hundred years ago. Bibliogr., notes
There language is close to daatooga so they are kinda southern nilotic
https://www.africabib.org/rec.php?RID=125213816
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The loan words in Kikuyu
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Another thing Njuri
The MB - thing you have is from Dorobo/Okiek.
You MBETTER know history.
Ogiek/Ndorobo add MB before most word.
My ogiek friend is MBoroto.
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Pundit you are all over offering no sources or concrete explanations
Its simple.Meru loan words from.cushites and Nilotes were absored once Merus displaced those people from current Meru land. That is well documented in Meru history in detail by Geoffrey fadiman and Njuri Ncheke historians.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-african-history/article/abs/early-history-of-the-meru-of-mt-kenya/09AA7928377CC6C9C2D6C001AA518E33
Read that. To note Meru are distinct from Kikuyu even though we related,thats where you blowing your gasket.
So I will have to dismiss you without any regard for your statements.
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The identification and subsequent expulsion of these earlier occupants of the Meru region of Mount Kenya will form the substance of a later article. In general, however, it can be said that most of the migrating bands of pre-Meru encountered representatives of one Bantu and three non-Bantu language groups, scattered in small communities across the full length of the current Meru region, either just within or just below the lower fringes of the forests. These were: (a) Eastern Cushitic speakers: three groups (b) Highland Nilotic speakers: one group (c) Plains Nilotic speakers: three groups (d) Bantu speakers: one group.
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Boss,
You're from cameroon.
To Congo
To DRC
To Tanzania or Burundi
To Kenya.
Anything else is BS.
Sonjo is nearest to Thagicu.
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Boss,
You're from cameroon.
To Congo
To DRC
To Tanzania or Burundi
To Kenya.
Anything else is BS.
Sonjo is nearest to Thagicu.
You are entitled to your opinion but science and history proves you wrong,
We are a superior people in Kenya really i dont see any community coming close maybe Kikuyus a distant second other kabilas in Kenya were mere tree huggers, Meru had institutions like Njuri Ncheke while Nkalenjin lived in caves and ate dogs thus the lumbwa kipisigis people, your history on starts during building of railway where nandis made a lucky shot.
We are your master and we just 2M.
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https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-african-history/article/abs/early-history-of-the-meru-of-mt-kenya/09AA7928377CC6C9C2D6C001AA518E33
Pure Meru scientific history.
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https://www.google.com/search?q=mountain+warriors+meru&client=ms-opera-mini-android&sca_esv=d777291650d83160&channel=new&ei=H4MjaOuWAf2ii-gP-v-GiQs&oq=mountain+warriors+meru&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIhZtb3VudGFpbiB3YXJyaW9ycyBtZXJ1MgUQIRigATIFECEYoAEyBRAhGJ8FMgUQIRifBTIFECEYnwUyBRAhGJ8FMgUQIRifBTIFECEYnwVIhj9Q2gdY4DpwAXgBkAEAmAHdAqAB2AyqAQMzLTW4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgagAtkNwgIKEAAYsAMY1gQYR8ICCxAuGIAEGMcBGK8BwgIFEAAYgATCAhAQLhiABBhDGMcBGIoFGK8BwgIGEAAYFhgewgIOEC4YFhjHARgKGB4YrwHCAggQABiABBiiBMICBRAAGO8FmAMAiAYBkAYIkgcFMS4zLTWgB4gksgcDMy01uAfFDQ&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp
Racially we most superior tribe in Kenya.
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Ba-temi
Our cultivators
And our iron smith.
You are entitled to your opinion but science and history proves you wrong,
We are a superior people in Kenya really i dont see any community coming close maybe Kikuyus a distant second other kabilas in Kenya were mere tree huggers, Meru had institutions like Njuri Ncheke while Nkalenjin lived in caves and ate dogs thus the lumbwa kipisigis people, your history on starts during building of railway where nandis made a lucky shot.
We are your master and we just 2M.
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Kisonjo
https://globalrecordings.net/en/program/9391
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Pundit give me your wife for a few days I plant a superior mbegu of pedigree so that your future generations really can have true superiority mountain warrior blood.
Otherwies mtaendelea kuwa inferior
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👀a well read brother how few they are!
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You have always been very low self steem kneegrow.
Focus on history.
You can use DNA
You can study kimeru linguistically - trace it DNA
You can use archaelogy - bones & pottery - buried underground
You can use palaenthology - study culture.
Or simply take a visit to Loliondo - very near kenya border.
Go and stay for few days with your cousins Sonjos.
Sonjos-Thagicu meet with Kalenjin-Datoga very long time ago - before they split into Kalenjin-Datoga-Tutsi-Hima.
You came in as farmers (Temik) & iron smith (Muturis). Sonjo is nick-named for those traditional bitter beans you like (forget the name)
We first see the first bantu in Kalenjin-Maa land of Nakuru - Rongai - in bones found in Deloraine farm.
There we have one bantu ironsmith and kid buried - 10th century - it also first time we see iron in region - replacing stone tools.And also wee see lots of agriculture. They live in their society.
The iron smith still lived alone in both maa and kalenjin - and but heavy farming was adopted by Kalenjin - from Sonjo in kipsigis side - northern kalenjin more from luhyas.
Sonjo-Thagicus - been moving up and down that regions - with Maa entry - alongside Kalenjin-Datoga.
Before that you were part of- just emerging from DRC forest-> Takama-Gusii-Kuria-Zanaki----> broke up & crossed the Serengeti -> Sonjo - crossed Kilimanjaro -> Thagicus - Kamba went south - Kikuyu group went north - where they meet Kalenjin Ogiek/Gumba/Lumbwa/Athi in that region.
Pundit give me your wife for a few days I plant a superior mbegu of pedigree so that your future generations really can have true superiority mountain warrior blood.
Otherwies mtaendelea kuwa inferior
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The video you have share hii ni Kimeru kabisaa murume vaite.
Really, unfortunately facts points otherwise
Does the language below if you listen to it sound Meru?
https://www.google.com/search?q=sonjo+language&client=ms-opera-mini-android&channel=new
As far as research goes they are close to Kikuyu, No meru history states.or mentions them
Pundit where do you get your sources??? Mogusii also says they are related to Merus but No Meru history Mentions them
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Ignore the initial chanting.
Listen to this one.
https://globalrecordings.net/en/program/9391
The video you have share hii ni Kimeru kabisaa murume vaite.
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Southern Nilotic loan word in Sonjo-Thagicus is very old.
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It appears the first contact relate further back to Proto-Takama-Gusii-Thagicu-Sonjo as we see word calf Moi/Mori is used by all them to refer to either calf or heifer.
Kikuyu Mori - Heifer.
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The early accounts, based on mzungu misfits' journals which inform most these studies, have serious gaps if not deliberate misrepresentations given that they never interacted closely with mwafrika.
The word loaning hypothesis, for instance, misses the role of captured women from raids who would bring up kids and use their own languages in foreign territories. These raids were two-way - Ndorobo would capture Maasai women on their lucky day.
Even willing inter marriages.
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Some of Wazungu are experts; teaching in Yales; and etc;
You havent read Africa history by African.
It just oral history.
It like Njuri Ncheke type.
Make belief - Meru are from Meroe :)
The early accounts, based on mzungu misfits' journals which inform most these studies, have serious gaps if not deliberate misrepresentations given that they never interacted closely with mwafrika.
The word loaning hypothesis, for instance, misses the role of captured women from raids who would bring up kids and use their own languages in foreign territories. These raids were two-way - Ndorobo would capture Maasai women on their lucky day.
Even willing inter marriages.
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You get so much from reading between the lines in the oral history.
The key informants for mzungu were mostly liars, just like ICC witnesses.
These distorted theses have made the wazungu anthropology authorities. Even these make-belief supremacist myths are based on these flawed theses and bibles.
Some of Wazungu are experts; teaching in Yales; and etc;
You havent read Africa history by African.
It just oral history.
It like Njuri Ncheke type.
Make belief - Meru are from Meroe :)
The early accounts, based on mzungu misfits' journals which inform most these studies, have serious gaps if not deliberate misrepresentations given that they never interacted closely with mwafrika.
The word loaning hypothesis, for instance, misses the role of captured women from raids who would bring up kids and use their own languages in foreign territories. These raids were two-way - Ndorobo would capture Maasai women on their lucky day.
Even willing inter marriages.
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Nope,
There is science to history.
These wazungu studies like 100 african languages - they can even dig up dead languages - by finding wierd words that dont exist in any modern languages
The wazungu can escavate bones - and date them 4,000yrs ago.
The wazungu have DNA kits - and can do forescenic telling your great ------------------> grandfather.
Modern history sio mchezo
You get so much from reading between the lines in the oral history.
The key informants for mzungu were mostly liars, just like ICC witnesses.
These distorted theses have made the wazungu anthropology authorities. Even these make-belief supremacist myths are based on these flawed theses and bibles.
Some of Wazungu are experts; teaching in Yales; and etc;
You havent read Africa history by African.
It just oral history.
It like Njuri Ncheke type.
Make belief - Meru are from Meroe :)
The early accounts, based on mzungu misfits' journals which inform most these studies, have serious gaps if not deliberate misrepresentations given that they never interacted closely with mwafrika.
The word loaning hypothesis, for instance, misses the role of captured women from raids who would bring up kids and use their own languages in foreign territories. These raids were two-way - Ndorobo would capture Maasai women on their lucky day.
Even willing inter marriages.
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Study how? Apart from distorted interviews and lying mwafrika out for some tokens.
Anthropology/Science is bought as evidenced by Gates, Israel and now Chinese.
The investments had vested interests in Africa. To create ethnic divisions where none existed. Hoist ethnic supremacists for own benefit.
Nope,
There is science to history.
These wazungu studies like 100 african languages - they can even dig up dead languages - by finding wierd words that dont exist in any modern languages
The wazungu can escavate bones - and date them 4,000yrs ago.
The wazungu have DNA kits - and can do forescenic telling your great ------------------> grandfather.
Modern history sio mchezo
You get so much from reading between the lines in the oral history.
The key informants for mzungu were mostly liars, just like ICC witnesses.
These distorted theses have made the wazungu anthropology authorities. Even these make-belief supremacist myths are based on these flawed theses and bibles.
Some of Wazungu are experts; teaching in Yales; and etc;
You havent read Africa history by African.
It just oral history.
It like Njuri Ncheke type.
Make belief - Meru are from Meroe :)
The early accounts, based on mzungu misfits' journals which inform most these studies, have serious gaps if not deliberate misrepresentations given that they never interacted closely with mwafrika.
The word loaning hypothesis, for instance, misses the role of captured women from raids who would bring up kids and use their own languages in foreign territories. These raids were two-way - Ndorobo would capture Maasai women on their lucky day.
Even willing inter marriages.
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Unlike in Kenya where failures like Njuri study history.
In advanced countries brilliant people study history, languages, etc.
It how the white guy has dominated the people.
History for them is very important.
Study how? Apart from distorted interviews and lying mwafrika out for some tokens.
Anthropology/Science is bought as evidenced by Gates, Israel and now Chinese.
The investments had vested interests in Africa. To create ethnic divisions where none existed. Hoist ethnic supremacists for own benefit.
Nope,
There is science to history.
These wazungu studies like 100 african languages - they can even dig up dead languages - by finding wierd words that dont exist in any modern languages
The wazungu can escavate bones - and date them 4,000yrs ago.
The wazungu have DNA kits - and can do forescenic telling your great ------------------> grandfather.
Modern history sio mchezo
You get so much from reading between the lines in the oral history.
The key informants for mzungu were mostly liars, just like ICC witnesses.
These distorted theses have made the wazungu anthropology authorities. Even these make-belief supremacist myths are based on these flawed theses and bibles.
Some of Wazungu are experts; teaching in Yales; and etc;
You havent read Africa history by African.
It just oral history.
It like Njuri Ncheke type.
Make belief - Meru are from Meroe :)
The early accounts, based on mzungu misfits' journals which inform most these studies, have serious gaps if not deliberate misrepresentations given that they never interacted closely with mwafrika.
The word loaning hypothesis, for instance, misses the role of captured women from raids who would bring up kids and use their own languages in foreign territories. These raids were two-way - Ndorobo would capture Maasai women on their lucky day.
Even willing inter marriages.
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Racist crazies like Carothers doing objective studies 😁 :D
In early 1900s the British profiled Kenyan tribes according to their mental capacities.
This was to legitimise their brutal rule over Kenya and to justify their relationships with the indigenous.
This was done at Mathare Hospital and His Majesty's Prison Nairobi which served as laboratories.
A case of this inhumane profiling was demonstrated in 1939 at Mathare Mental Hospital when two British doctors were asked to examine the mental capacity of Chemweno an Elgeyo who was serving a prison sentence at HMP Nairobi Prison.
The two doctors were Dr J.Carothers Medical officer Mathare Mental Hospital and Dr J Carman Medical Officer Nairobi Prisons.
Both Doctors had no experience in psychiatry and were just working temporarily awaiting the arrival of Dr James Cobb who was a trained psychiatrist.
After examining Chemweno ,Dr Carothers claimed that Chemweno was an Idiot.
Dr Carman also examined Chemweno and concluded that although Chemweno was an idiot he was less idiotic compared to the people of his tribe the Elgeyo. Therefore Chemweno was an "average intelligent" Idiot among idiots.
Chemweno's case was discussed further ,with Dr Carman stating that if Chemweno had been a Kikuyu or a Maasai he would have diagnosed him as an extreme Idiot because these tribes had a higher level of intelligence than the Elgeyo.
Carman continued stating that despite being mentally deficient Chemweno was normal because it was normal for the Elgeyo to have mental deficiency.
After thorough deliberation ,the two doctors agreed that whatever the case Chemweno was still an Idiot and recommended that he should be released from prison.
https://www.facebook.com/opiyo.levin/posts/pfbid02HCLFauptEp5yGg4ZvwHRSD7YJ2vzUcbKs76mRCroKF2G5duz5Gqyxg7j39wyS3Xtl
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Kisonjo
https://globalrecordings.net/en/program/9391 (https://globalrecordings.net/en/program/9391)
If I were to guess, to my ear, it sounds like a mongrel of Gusii and Gikuyu.
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You get so much from reading between the lines in the oral history.
The key informants for mzungu were mostly liars, just like ICC witnesses.
These distorted theses have made the wazungu anthropology authorities. Even these make-belief supremacist myths are based on these flawed theses and bibles.
Some of Wazungu are experts; teaching in Yales; and etc;
You havent read Africa history by African.
It just oral history.
It like Njuri Ncheke type.
Make belief - Meru are from Meroe :)
The early accounts, based on mzungu misfits' journals which inform most these studies, have serious gaps if not deliberate misrepresentations given that they never interacted closely with mwafrika.
The word loaning hypothesis, for instance, misses the role of captured women from raids who would bring up kids and use their own languages in foreign territories. These raids were two-way - Ndorobo would capture Maasai women on their lucky day.
Even willing inter marriages.
Oral history has its place. But it also suffers major weaknesses you find in third party(in this case even worse) accounts of events. I see it a good starting place, and in some cases, a stop gap, when you have nothing else to go on.
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You have good ear.
It is.
Mara Bantus (Kuria-Gusii-Zanaki) is where Thagicu-Sonko broke off
Before crossing the Serengeti plains
To emerge in Manyara highlands.
Left Sonjo.
Went towards Mt kilimanjaro - split into Kamba & kikuyu group
Kikuyu group moved to Mt kenya and split
If I were to guess, to my ear, it sounds like a mongrel of Gusii and Gikuyu.
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Oral history is only good for a few generations; Maybe 200yrs max; then it become hazy
Oral history has its place. But it also suffers major weaknesses you find in third party(in this case even worse) accounts of events. I see it a good starting place, and in some cases, a stop gap, when you have nothing else to go on.
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Kisonjo
https://globalrecordings.net/en/program/9391 (https://globalrecordings.net/en/program/9391)
If I were to guess, to my ear, it sounds like a mongrel of Gusii and Gikuyu.
Perfectly put, Actually when listened to it sounded so albeit with also some kind of maasai words ,now compare thats Sonjo same script recording but in Ki Meru
https://globalrecordings.net/en/program/9331
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Kimeru, totally distinct
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Sonjo is missing link btw Gusii and Kimeru
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Sonjo is missing link btw Gusii and Kimeru
Pundit try another theory :D
Missing link between Gusii and Kikuyu
once you accept Meru is a very distinct bantu language apo ndio utaanza kuelewa actually Kimeru is older than Kikuyu or even Kamba. Some.Meru words have no equivalent in Bantu then again Meru is not 100%Bantu only 60% or so.
Meru history and language were modelled in Tana river and coastal lamu area our migration again is different from Kikuyu.even in that article Tana river is clearly pointed out.
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That is make believe story.
Meru-Embu-Kikuyu is close - dont argue - you just have Ogiek/Lumbwa/Umba influence of "MB" before some words.
Tharaka is Mbeere+our kalenjin Ogiek;
Huyu DP kwanza ni kama ni Ogiek kwa clan yake :)
Mbeere is Kamba+Embu.
Kambas is one with some Tana River Pokomo influence.
Overally Thagicu group likely meet Chagga-Taita group in Mt Kilimanjaro.
One Taita group is admixed with Mijikenda (coastal bantus who are related all the way to Mozambique & malawi)
The Kamba group met Pokomo - Mijikenda group.
You story about migration of red people enslavement in island is VERY KALENJIN.
Pundit try another theory :D
Missing link between Gusii and Kikuyu
once you accept Meru is a very distinct bantu language apo ndio utaanza kuelewa actually Kimeru is older than Kikuyu or even Kamba. Some.Meru words have no equivalent in Bantu then again Meru is not 100%Bantu only 60% or so.
Meru history and language were modelled in Tana river and coastal lamu area our migration again is different from Kikuyu.even in that article Tana river is clearly pointed out.
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Sonjos have lived with Kipsigis, maasai n datoga for centuries and they are considered part of old confederacy.. assimilated group. They batemi( temik.. agriculturalist). Most kipsigis assume Sonjoek are kalenjin