Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: RV Pundit on February 02, 2015, 07:43:58 AM
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This might be true. I was stuck in conference the whole of last week with mostly europeans and americans who have travelled extensively in africa..and they all agree that kenya stands out..development wise.
http://fortune.com/2015/01/22/the-new-world-of-business/
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I think these ferengis judge a negro country by how it is receptive to their corporations. Typically, Kenya is one hell of a freeway for foreigners. They really don't care about the well being of the natives.
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Outside Ferengi driven RSA and maybe Egypt there are few economies in Africa that have the diversification, the sophistication and liberazation/open market competition that exist in Kenya. We were with a Nigerian..the guy had trouble buying USD..reason the 90% oil dependent nigeria economy forex have been cleaned dry following 3 months oil drop..you cannot buy USD in nigeria now..unless you have say Master or Visa card...Nigeria you might think is good..but it just oil.
Kenya has had serious trouble in tea and tourism..but the economy is just going strong.
I think these ferengis judge a negro country by how it is receptive to their corporations. Typically, Kenya is one hell of a freeway for foreigners. They really don't care about the well being of the natives.
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If only there was organization. There is trash all over the place, even in high end areas. There is no govt. All govt people are busy looking for bribes
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I think these ferengis judge a negro country by how it is receptive to their corporations. Typically, Kenya is one hell of a freeway for foreigners. They really don't care about the well being of the natives.
I would aver that bureaucratic red tape, absurd regulations, endemic corruption, political risk, poor infrastructure, an unenlightened political class - have had more deleterious effects on the Kenyan Negro than all the foreigners--read Westerners-- put together.
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I thought we had kicked out these obsolete Breton Woods institutions' policies out of Kenya... there is no good coming out of the...tax on senator KEG, Capital gains tax...
The implementation of IMF-supported fixes to central bank and treasury management ought to keep inflation in check and the currency stable as well.
Ndemo feels we need a homegrown economic model away from the IMF that takes into consideration, gives incentives and protects micro and small enterprises...why are we obsessed with giving incentives to multinationals while killing our micro and small enterprises just to get good ratings by this ferengi
http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/blogs/dot9/ndemo/-/2274486/2610012/-/1ewmn7z/-/index.html
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Exactly gout. I think GOK has to be careful. I have seen people get employed by CBK courtesy of having experience working with the IMF.
I wonder why a negro thinks its a virtue to work for IMF....while this is the very institution that has put africa in economic prison....
I fully support Ndemo...Africa needs to tweak western protocols but not implement them as they come.
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Another one. Kenyans think that employing a PHD to run an institution the company will succeed.
Exactly gout. I think GOK has to be careful. I have seen people get employed by CBK courtesy of having experience working with the IMF.
I wonder why a negro thinks its a virtue to work for IMF....while this is the very institution that has put africa in economic prison....
I fully support Ndemo...Africa needs to tweak western protocols but not implement them as they come.
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Another one. Kenyans think that employing a PHD to run an institution the company will succeed.
Exactly gout. I think GOK has to be careful. I have seen people get employed by CBK courtesy of having experience working with the IMF.
I wonder why a negro thinks its a virtue to work for IMF....while this is the very institution that has put africa in economic prison....
I fully support Ndemo...Africa needs to tweak western protocols but not implement them as they come.
I do not support employing pure "raw" talent...But what I meant is that those people who have worked for IMF appear not to be a good choice given the reputation of IMF with screwing negro countries on behalf of the west.
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I would aver that bureaucratic red tape, absurd regulations, endemic corruption, political risk, poor infrastructure, an unenlightened political class - have had more deleterious effects on the Kenyan Negro than all the foreigners--read Westerners-- put together.
It is always much easier to blame others than to take responsibility for oneself.
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If we built 500,000 Units for the urban poor in informal settlements,that would have been real development since it would have created millions of jobs,better housing,water,sanitation,health and more taxes but this high economic growth rate led by the SGR and low oil prices is for the rich politicians and middle class kenyans,doesn't make sense,we need balanced development,
Without Prejudice.
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0.5m units at modest cost of 2-3m would be trillions shilling that our gok cannot afford. I think you're confusing the core function of gov..which is to provide common services...to everyone. Gov should spend about as much money on social projects as private co or individual would..i'd go with 10% like the tithe...90% should be spent on core gov services...like security, infrastructure and 43 gov services...as enumerated in the constitution.
If we built 500,000 Units for the urban poor in informal settlements,that would have been real development since it would have created millions of jobs,better housing,water,sanitation,health and more taxes but this high economic growth rate led by the SGR and low oil prices is for the rich politicians and middle class kenyans,doesn't make sense,we need balanced development,
Without Prejudice.
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I have worked with folks from WB..and i can tell you they are just normal folks like me and you..policy wonks who make wrong judgement call..but mostly based on real data...far more rigorous than what others folks do. IMF has made mistakes..but let not delude ourselves that our problem start and ends with IMF or WB.
I do not support employing pure "raw" talent...But what I meant is that those people who have worked for IMF appear not to be a good choice given the reputation of IMF with screwing negro countries on behalf of the west.
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0.5m units at modest cost of 2-3m would be trillions shilling that our gok cannot afford. I think you're confusing the core function of gov..which is to provide common services...to everyone. Gov should spend about as much money on social projects as private co or individual would..i'd go with 10% like the tithe...90% should be spent on core gov services...like security, infrastructure and 43 gov services...as enumerated in the constitution.
What do you consider "core"? After food, I can't think of a more basic requirement than shelter. Where I live, the expected norm is that the government will make available sufficient low-cost housing to those who need it.
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I fully support Ndemo...Africa needs to tweak western protocols but not implement them as they come.
It's all very well for Ndemo to wave about some generic "let's have a different model" or whatever. But:
* What does he actually have in mind? (Even a rough outline will do.)
* How will that help improve the situation? (That one will require understanding and articulating the real problems.)
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0.5m units at modest cost of 2-3m would be trillions shilling that our gok cannot afford. I think you're confusing the core function of gov..which is to provide common services...to everyone. Gov should spend about as much money on social projects as private co or individual would..i'd go with 10% like the tithe...90% should be spent on core gov services...like security, infrastructure and 43 gov services...as enumerated in the constitution.
What do you consider "core"? After food, I can't think of a more basic requirement than shelter. Where I live, the expected norm is that the government will make available sufficient low-cost housing to those who need it.
Housing is a constitutional right Chinese have already built 36MN homes for the poor between 2011 -2015,
@RV Pundit,
What makes housing expensive in Kenya is interest rate and prohibitive professional fees,Its possible to built a 50SQM at 1MN and cost becomes 500BN,There is so much idle cheap land in ukambani and maasai land we can leverage,If the gov rolls out a 5year plan to build 100K subsidized housing units annually,those are hundreds of thousands of jobs annually and more middle class,you also create an urban rail transit from Nairobi and also shift activity from the small city,that's real development,
shifting containers from mombasa road to SGR or building konza city doesn't make sense 4 common mwananchi,if Kenya was really developing,we wouldn't have the rich surrounded by slums everywhere,
Without Prejudice.
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There is no govt that does not push policies to ensure the poor also have a place to sleep.
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Mansfield and Moonki,
The gov cannot possibly feed and house everyone while collecting 25% of the GDP as taxes; there are many competing needs that are reflected in budget making process;There is no way you can justify housing the urban poor [0.5m out of 12m households] who constitute less than 5% of kenya and of poor kenyans some in northern kenya who lives on trees and bushes; without even the many luxuries the urban poor have including good schools, hospitals, and name it.
There is definitely need to deepen social programs....esp for the helpless, the disable, the orphaned, the old, the sick,the vulnerable and the real poor...but most kenyans who are able and active should be out there engaging in productive activities..and generating taxes. Building a hse is easy stuff...mwafrika just need to learn basic skills in masonry, capentry and brick making.
Gov should in meantime focus on services that will reach most folks.....in all the corners of kenya. Education is a big one.
What do you consider "core"? After food, I can't think of a more basic requirement than shelter. Where I live, the expected norm is that the government will make available sufficient low-cost housing to those who need it.
Housing is a constitutional right Chinese have already built 36MN homes for the poor between 2011 -2015,
@RV Pundit,
What makes housing expensive in Kenya is interest rate and prohibitive professional fees,Its possible to built a 50SQM at 1MN and cost becomes 500BN,There is so much idle cheap land in ukambani and maasai land we can leverage,If the gov rolls out a 5year plan to build 100K subsidized housing units annually,those are hundreds of thousands of jobs annually and more middle class,you also create an urban rail transit from Nairobi and also shift activity from the small city,that's real development,
shifting containers from mombasa road to SGR or building konza city doesn't make sense 4 common mwananchi,if Kenya was really developing,we wouldn't have the rich surrounded by slums everywhere,
Without Prejudice.
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(1) Kenya,just like the rest of world population is shifting from rural to urban areas so we need to invest in the future,By 2030 we will have more urban residents living in slums,Nairobi,the capital city will be a very big slum,compare it with 50years ago and foresee 50years to come,nobody will want to live there,
(2)Jobs,Over 80% of Nairobians live under less that $1.25 a day,If we were to roll out a 5year program of 100K housing units annually,How many jobs are those vs SGR 30,000jobs?Our middle class would increase would explode,
Without Prejudice.
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You tend to think that middle class is having a nice crip. That is really shallow thinking. Urbanization will happen naturally and organically. Most of slums we have are really not so much due to poverty but much more due to vague land ownership..all slums are sitting on mass grabbed public land..where folks cannot invest in building because nobody has titled deed.
Gov has so many competing needs in so many sectors with so little money there is NO SILVER bullet for transforming the economy.
Education is important. Housing. Health. Security. Transport. Internet/Telecommunication. Nuclear R&D. Social programs. Financial stability. Rural roads. Water and Sanitation. Name them.
Any modern gov is too complex to have your simplistic silver bullet solutions.
Right now we spent huge chunk of our money in
1) Education -3B dollars-in teacher salaries and school equipment-
2) Security-2-3B dollars in military, police and prov admin
3) Infrastructure-Roads and Railways.
What remain is very little when you factor about 300-400B funds that goes in paying for debts, pensions and consolidated accounts commitment.
And then throw in another 250B that goes to counties.
And there is just no money to turn the hovels of kibera into shiny middle class crip...not that living in one..without real income from real economic activities..will suddenly transform us to middle class.
(1) Kenya,just like the rest of world population is shifting from rural to urban areas so we need to invest in the future,By 2030 we will have more urban residents living in slums,Nairobi,the capital city will be a very big slum,compare it with 50years ago and foresee 50years to come,nobody will want to live there,
(2)Jobs,Over 80% of Nairobians live under less that $1.25 a day,If we were to roll out a 5year program of 100K housing units annually,How many jobs are those vs SGR 30,000jobs?Our middle class would increase would explode,
Without Prejudice.
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I always see mzungu especially in US building their own houses .... or is it only on TV?
Though most folks in rural areas do build their own houses
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Aoountability is the biggest issue in the society. They need to hire sleuths who are excons to show them how money is siphoned out of the coffers and the use the info to charge the cons. EACC is a rubber stamp agency that has been politicize.
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Gov has so little money
And there is just no money to turn the hovels of kibera into shiny middle class crip...not that living in one..without real income from real economic activities..will suddenly transform us to middle class.
(1) Financing (money) is available,Eurobond was oversubscribed 8X,so much idle capital there gov can tap,
(2) Economic activity,The housing units will be built in like a 5year plan which creates employment sustainability and expand middle class/income secondly steel cement wood energy quarries financial & professional services transport etc etc would boom,
Without Prejudice.
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What do you consider "core"? After food, I can't think of a more basic requirement than shelter. Where I live, the expected norm is that the government will make available sufficient low-cost housing to those who need it.
Are you kidding? Even the USA cannot provide shelter to all its people or they would not have so many homeless needing to be temporarily sheltered during the winter. Are you comparing a Scandinavian country to a third-world African country and complaining that the African country cant provide what the first world country can? Honestly, sometimes diasporans come off sounding like such spoilt children!
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Are you kidding? Even the USA cannot provide shelter to all its people or they would not have so many homeless needing to be temporarily sheltered during the winter. Are you comparing a Scandinavian country to a third-world African country and complaining that the African country cant provide what the first world country can? Honestly, sometimes diasporans come off sounding like such spoilt children!
Don't be silly. There is absolutely no reason why the government cannot make a better effort to provide low-cost housing to those who need it. Unless you were born yesterday, you might want to look at housing estates in most Kenyan towns in the 1960s and 1970s. Practically, a lot could be achieved if there was less theft of government money, with much of it getting stashed away overseas. (Focus on the "better effort", as opposed to doing bugger-all.)
On "diasporans come off sounding like such spoilt children", I am in fact only encouraging what the Constitution of Kenya states. And, as far as I know that was written by Kenyans in Kenya and voted for by Kenyans in Kenya. (I had no part in any of that.) I refer you to the Bill of Rights in that document:
Article 43. (1) Every person has the right—
(b) to accessible and adequate housing, and to reasonable
standards of sanitation;
Which part of that do you find problematic? Should we just instead remind people that Kenya is not part of Scandinavia?
Even the USA cannot provide shelter to all its people or they would not have so many homeless needing to be temporarily sheltered during the winter.
Please explain the logic. Homeless people can be homeless for a variety of reasons. If you wish to argue that the USA cannot ---your chosen word---house its homeless, then the logical path is this: come up with estimate of the number of homeless people in the USA; estimate what it would cost to provide them with housing; then argue that, for whatever reason, the USA cannot afford to do that. Simply saying that "there are homeless people, so aha!" is rather lame.
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Building 500,000 housing Units is pretty simple,
Government looks for 500BN loan to build the 500K units,Under this arrangement,the repayment period should be a 20year plan at a concessional rate of 5% annually so in 20years the total amount to be repaid will be 1TN,
The government pays half the amount while the wananchi who reside in the houses pay the other half,annually the owners of the house pay 25BN while gov pays 25BN as you can see the owner of the house will be paying 50K per year that is about 4100/-bob monthly and gov will not have a debt problem...that's what we call subsidized housing,
If such a project is done 50KM from the city in ukambani and maasai land,it will decongest Nairobi city and gov will also be able to build a mass urban transit towards the city while the capital becomes a business hub not a slum dwelling,
That way you will turn Kenya into a New York or Tokyo in a five year plan,
With the Kenya urban population set to cross 50% mark after 2030 the project can be ongoing and can stimulate economic growth in equitable sense while the model can be replicated elsewhere,such a project won't even affect gov plan,
Failure to do that,Kenya will become a very big slum in the near future,
Without Prejudice.
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Mr. Mansfield:
The model you suggest is an excellent one that has been shown to work where the will and planning existed.
For other stuff:
UN-HABITAT, which has its base in Nairobi!, has devoted a lot of effort trying to convince people (i.e. mostly governments) that mass affordable housing does not require large financial resources from governments or that what is required has to all come from governments (as opposed to, say, the government providing the right incentives and so on.) A sample from their website:
"Unfortunately, especially in the developing world, supply is often limited by inadequate governance systems and human resource deficiencies, as well as by institutions and regulations which are either obsolete or lacking in capacity, or are poorly informed. So far, the failure of urban planning and the construction sector in matching demand for homes has resulted in a huge housing backlog that has led to the development of slums in a variety of contexts globally."
One of key international figures in the push for global housing is Sangeeth Ram of the McKinsey Global Institute. He has written and talked a great deal about these things. Here is a video in which, among other things, he talked about the costs.
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Are you kidding? Even the USA cannot provide shelter to all its people or they would not have so many homeless needing to be temporarily sheltered during the winter. Are you comparing a Scandinavian country to a third-world African country and complaining that the African country cant provide what the first world country can? Honestly, sometimes diasporans come off sounding like such spoilt children!
Don't be silly. There is absolutely no reason why the government cannot make a better effort to provide low-cost housing to those who need it. Unless you were born yesterday, you might want to look at housing estates in most Kenyan towns in the 1960s and 1970s. Practically, a lot could be achieved if there was less theft of government money, with much of it getting stashed away overseas. (Focus on the "better effort", as opposed to doing bugger-all.)
On "diasporans come off sounding like such spoilt children", I am in fact only encouraging what the Constitution of Kenya states. And, as far as I know that was written by Kenyans in Kenya and voted for by Kenyans in Kenya. (I had no part in any of that.) I refer you to the Bill of Rights in that document:
Article 43. (1) Every person has the right—
(b) to accessible and adequate housing, and to reasonable
standards of sanitation;
Which part of that do you find problematic? Should we just instead remind people that Kenya is not part of Scandinavia?
Even the USA cannot provide shelter to all its people or they would not have so many homeless needing to be temporarily sheltered during the winter.
Please explain the logic. Homeless people can be homeless for a variety of reasons. If you wish to argue that the USA cannot ---your chosen word---house its homeless, then the logical path is this: come up with estimate of the number of homeless people in the USA; estimate what it would cost to provide them with housing; then argue that, for whatever reason, the USA cannot afford to do that. Simply saying that "there are homeless people, so aha!" is rather lame.
Why don't you explain your own logic in comparing us to the first world country in which you live and the "expectations" that people over there have? I don't have to attend primary school or watch CNN to figure that the expectations of people in a developed country will differ "a tad" from those of people in very poor countries. Ati...where you live...this is what people expect. You sound like a braggart. How is that relevant to poor countries? Hello, might there be major reasons (like lots more dollars!) that this is so? Perhaps those countries can afford to give away "free" housing to everyone now that they dealt with poor institutionalism, insecurity, malaria (whatever their health ssues were), education, employment, basic infrastructure already. :o
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Why don't you explain your own logic in comparing us to the first world country in which you live and the "expectations" that people over there have? I don't have to go to primary to know that the expectations of people in a developed country will differ "a tad" from those of people in very poor countries. You sound like a braggart. Ati "...where I live...this is what people expect" Hello, might there be major reasons (like lots more dollars!) that this is so? Greater level of development? Perhaps those countries can afford to give away "free" housing to everyone now that they dealt with insecurity, malaria (whatever their health ssues were), education, employment, basic infrastructure already?
As I tried to point out, it is Kenyans, living in Kenya, who have decided that they are entitled to decent housing. They put that in their constitution, which they voted for, right in there with their declarations of rights to education, health care, and so forth. If you have a problem with that, you need to talk to the Kenyans who came up with and voted for that constitution. You will have to explain to those Kenyans (and their constitution) how "the expectations of people in a developed country will differ "a tad" from those of people in very poor countries".
And there is no bragging involved. I believe that next to food, there is nothing as urgently needed as shelter; with food and shelter, one can do manage with little of other things. So I am happy to live in a place where people already accept what Kenyans are starting to demand through their constitution.
Lastly, you have still not addressed the logical flaws in your reasoning. Perhaps it will help if I explain it to you: the mere fact that something is not being done should not lead one to conclude that it cannot be done. So, try again.
Hello, might there be major reasons (like lots more dollars!)
This is one of the myths that is very problematic. Please try to do a bit on homework on what really can be done in terms of affordable mass housing. And get beyond this idea that only rich wazungus should have decent housing. Kenyans, people in the rest of Africa, and so on ... they too deserve it. What's more they can get it! That's one of the biggest point that organizations like UN-Habitat are trying to get across.
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@Moonki, mine is not at all a belief that only Wazungus or anyone "should" have anything.
Mine is about whether we CAN have what they have today at the level of development we are @. Comparing us with them at this point makes little sense. It would've been better if you compared us with countries with similar potential (as ours) that nonetheless manage to do so much better than we do. That we put it in our constitution doesn't mean we can just wave our hands and have it, it's not like the constitution came along with a genie to grant us all our wishes. Some of those rights will take time to make their way up the ladder because they cost quite a bit. This would be true even if we had a willing and responsible government, which is a different discussion.
I figure you are of the philosophy that places political rights at par with the socio-economic rights. I do believe in both but I think it is idealistic and utopian to hold all countries to the same standard regarding the latter, knowing very well that they don't all have the same economic muscle and are unequal development-wise. It is therefore to be expected that they will have different priorities in their national planning and budgeting at any one point.
I didn't say the fact that we don't do it means automatically that it is impossible. It's just impossible RIGHT NOW! You spoke of it as if to suggest that just because it's in the constitution (or expected as a matter-of-course in the first world), everyone in the slum can demand better housing courtesy of the government today. Even if we speak of them all as rights, there is a difference in how we treat them, some are more immediate and easily (and unconditionally) guaranteed than others. Some depend on how much we have to spend after non-negotiables like minimum government, security, schools, basic health centres and basic infrastructure.