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Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Nowayhaha on January 20, 2023, 10:05:18 PM

Title: Why won't Germany, US send Leopard 2, Abrams tanks to Ukraine?
Post by: Nowayhaha on January 20, 2023, 10:05:18 PM
https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/mwm:-why-wont-germany-us-send-leopard-ii-abrams-tanks-to-ukr

1 - Fear of it falling into Russian hands

The first reason is that NATO and its allies rely heavily on these tanks wherein tanks are among the "easier pieces of equipment to capture due to their frontline roles, as opposed to artillery or aircraft which can still contribute to operations when based far behind friendly lines."

If the tanks fell into the hands of Russian forces, the latter would immensely benefit from studying the technology invested in the production of these tanks. 

So it is better to avoid that risk, the article states, just as Russia compromised its most valuable tanks through capture. 

Yet Ukraine's outdated tanks remain of little value to Russia in terms of intelligence. 

2 - Aleppo scenario was 'shocking'

The second reason, as stated by the article, is that the effectiveness of these tanks is still being questioned because of prior performances that saw both the Abrams and Leopard II suffer heavy losses against non-state actors, such as the Turkish Leopard IIs and Iraqi Abrams tanks both having taken heavy losses to Islamic State and other militia groups.

The Turkish tanks were heavily criticized by media reports across the world, some going as far as saying that they were “not so good armor after all," as described by the National Interest. 

3 - Material cost

The third reason highlighted in the article is that they are too expensive, with some older variants of the M1 and Leopard II being far more expensive than the soviet made vehicles already provided to Ukraine.

The US-made Abrams for instance uses maintenance-heavy and fuel-hungry turbine engines.

4 - Non-compatibility

Fourth, the tanks are not as compatible with Ukraine’s existing weapon backlogs as the integration of new calibers of ammunition would generate serious issues.




5 - Worse mobility and logistics

Finally, the fifth reason is that the heavy weight of these tanks does not allow for move easily across bridges or brittle roads.

"Although Spain, the Netherlands, Norway, and Greece all use the Leopard II, none have filed for permission from Germany to supply them to Ukraine nor have Abrams operators shown any greater inclination to supply modern armor," the article mentions.

The article added that the use of older Leopard I and M60 from the early 1960s by Ukrainian forces wouldn't amount to any real losses as the capabilities of these armors is already very limited.

"Although Kiev is expected to continue to request deliveries of modern Western armor, this remains unlikely to materialize for the foreseeable future and potentially long after the war is over should the possibility of a resumption of hostilities with Russia remain," the article concluded.

Title: Re: Why won't Germany, US send Leopard 2, Abrams tanks to Ukraine?
Post by: Nowayhaha on January 20, 2023, 10:10:48 PM

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/defencesec-austin-berlin-leo2-ukraine-pressure


The United States has itself refrained from supplying its own main battle tank the M1 Abrams, which is a rival to the Leopard 2 as the only other Western tank class currently in production. “The logistical and maintenance challenges of the tanks, and not over concern that their transfer could escalate the conflict” was cited by Pentagon officials as the reason why the tanks were not delivered. The Abrams’ lighter counterpart, the M2 Bradley armoured fighting vehicle, was nevertheless approved for sale, and was described by officials as an asset that would “enable the Ukrainians to break through given Russian defences, the emphasis has been shifted to enabling them to combine fire and manoeuvre in a way that will prove to be more effective.” Both the M1 Abrams and the Leopard 2 have performed underwhelmingly and taken heavy losses in recent conflicts in the Middle East, fuelling speculation that Germany may be hesitant to allow its own tank’s reputation to be tarnished on the battlefield which could provide a major opening for Abrams tanks to gain greater market share. The M2 Bradley by contrast is no longer in production and has not been heavily marketed for export, meaning significant battlefield losses would be less harmful to U.S. interests than Leopard 2 or Abrams losses would to their respective producers. Production ended in 1995, with Saudi Arabia having been the only client for new production vehicles. 

Leopard 2 Tank


In contrast to German and American reluctance to provide their own main battle tanks Britain, which has not produced tanks for over two decades, confirmed on January 14 that it would donate its top of the line Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine, with the lack of manufacturing or exports by the country meaning that the fallout from any combat losses suffered would be far more limited. The same applies to France, which has similarly ceased tank production for several decades and is currently considering supplying its Leclerc tanks. The stakes are considerably higher for Germany, however, which is expected to continue to export the Leopard 2 and possibly its modernised derivative the Panther well into the 2030s, and which is far more reliant on tanks as a portion of its defence export revenues than the United States or any other Western country is. 

Title: Re: Why won't Germany, US send Leopard 2, Abrams tanks to Ukraine?
Post by: Nowayhaha on January 20, 2023, 10:14:03 PM


https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/avoiding-aleppo-no-leopard2-abrams-tanks-ukraine


MILITARY WATCH

Eastern Europe and Central Asia, Ground

Avoiding an Aleppo Scenario: This is Why Germany and America Won’t Send Leopard II or Abrams Tanks to Ukraine

September-30th-2022

M1 Abrams Destroyed by HJ-8 by Peshmerga

Since shortly after the outbreak of the Russian-Ukrainian War in February widespread calls began to emerge in the West to supply the Ukrainian Army and possibly Kiev-aligned militias and contractors with Western main battle tanks to enhance their armoured warfare capabilities. Ukraine has since received tremendous quantities of armour from NATO member states that were formerly members of either the Warsaw Pact or parts of Yugoslavia, primarily T-72s but also more recently T-55s, which have high compatibility with the country’s large armoured forces made up of Soviet-built T-64 and T-72 tanks. The dispatch of Western-built tanks, however, appears increasingly unlikely to materialise despite Western arms shipments to Kiev amounting to tens of billions of dollars, with a number of factors being key to deterring suppliers. The only two classes of main battle tank in production in the West, the German Leopard II and American M1 Abrams, have both reportedly been considered and are in many ways similar designs as both were derived from the failed U.S.-German joint MBT-70 tank in the 1980s. 

Four primary factors are expected to prevent the delivery of modern Western tanks to Ukraine for the foreseeable future and limit both the willingness of NATO members to supply such vehicles and the value they would have in the battlefield. The first is the serious threat that deliveries could pose to the Leopard II and M1 Abrams programs due to how much they are relied on by NATO and by Western-aligned states across the world. Tanks are among the easier pieces of equipment to capture due to their frontline roles, as opposed to artillery or aircraft which can still contribute to operations when based far behind friendly lines. The Abrams or Leopard II could thus both provide valuable intelligence to the Russian Military should even a single vehicle be captured, which remains a very significant possibility should they enter the war. While Russia has seen some of its most valuable tanks compromised through capture, with these expected to be passed on to NATO for study, Ukraine's antiquated Cold War era vehicles are of little value to Russia in terms of intelligence. 

Turkish Army Leopard II Tank


The second and perhaps most significant factor is that the prior performances of both the Abrams and Leopard II against non state actors has raised significant questions regarding their effectiveness, with Turkish Leopard IIs and Iraqi Abrams tanks both having taken heavy losses to Islamic State and other militia groups while Saudi Abrams units have also seen losses in Yemen. In 2016 Turkish Army Leopard IIs in Al Bab in Syria’s Aleppo governate faced humiliating losses in combat to Islamic State weapons that were far from state of the art, with British media reporting that the tank showed “numerous faults exposed in lethal fashion.” Stars and Stripes assessed that the German tank’s reputation “has taken a pounding in battles with Islamic State militants,” with the National Interest describing a performance in combat that “shockingly illustrated” that they were “not so good armour after all.” They were “proven embarrassingly vulnerable in combat” despite not facing well armed adversaries. Turkish military leaders described their Leopard II units’ early engagements with IS as “trauma.”

The Turkish Army had similar experiences operating the vehicles against Kurdish militias, with Iraqi Abrams losses having been similarly extreme. Against the Russian Military serious losses by Leopard II and Abrams tanks, particularly against Russia’s own armour, would be a major embarrassment that could seriously reduce foreign interest in acquiring the designs. With both tanks being produced primarily for export, this would be particularly unfavourable as both face stringent competition particularly from more modern South Korean vehicles. The fact that export variants of the Abrams for Ukraine are unlikely to integrate depleted uranium armour or shells would further seriously limit their ability to engage Russian armour. 

Iraqi Army M1 Abrams Tank


A third factor is cost, with even older variants of the M1 and Leopard II being far more expensive than the vehicles already provided to Ukraine and the former using fuel hungry and high maintenance gas turbine engines. Neither are manufactured on a large scale, meaning they would need to be drawn from reserve units which could cost billions to replenish. A fourth is that the tanks are not compatible with Ukraine’s existing armour inventories, with the integration of new calibers of ammunition being one among many issues this would cause. A fifth factor is that Western tanks, unlike Russian and Soviet ones, are too heavy to use civilian infrastructure in place such as bridges and roads, which would limit the usefulness of the Abrams or the Leopard II in the Ukrainian Army compared to more T-72s. The fact that Western tanks lack autoloaders and require 33% more crew, although being a significant drawback for some clients, is not expected to pose an issue in Ukraine due to its high mobilisation manpower which has outnumbered the Russian contingent in the country by over 5:1.  


Title: Re: Why won't Germany, US send Leopard 2, Abrams tanks to Ukraine?
Post by: RV Pundit on January 21, 2023, 05:55:14 AM
Western allies are not keen to end this war...they want Ukraine fighting Russia for a long time.
Title: Re: Why won't Germany, US send Leopard 2, Abrams tanks to Ukraine?
Post by: patel on January 21, 2023, 01:57:06 PM
This works to Putin advantage. Russian Military can afford to sit back sending few missiles to Kiev every now and then. Can Ukraine afford that ? 80% of ukraine population has no power or gas in the middle of winter. Western allies will soon get tired of sending money and weapons to prop up comedian govt. Then there is rebuilding..it will take trillions to rebuild Ukraine...I doubt western allies are eager to cough that money.
Western allies are not keen to end this war...they want Ukraine fighting Russia for a long time.
Title: Re: Why won't Germany, US send Leopard 2, Abrams tanks to Ukraine?
Post by: RV Pundit on January 21, 2023, 03:20:22 PM
Russian will be defeated and will foot the bill. Western allies are lynching Putin. He cant win. They will keep sending weapons while increasing sanctions on Russia.

The last thing remaining is to ask China and India to cut off trade with Russia. Trust me India and China will not lose EU/US market for cheap Russian oil/gas.

Then Russia will rush to negotiation table - they will be told to get out of Ukraine - retain Crimea - and rebuild Ukraine - from their oil and gas - which EU will import for free :) and money wired to Ukraine - until Russia complete paying for senseless shelling - in meantime Ukraine will be part of EU/NATO.

Putin by then is likely to have been killed by russians.

This works to Putin advantage. Russian Military can afford to sit back sending few missiles to Kiev every now and then. Can Ukraine afford that ? 80% of ukraine population has no power or gas in the middle of winter. Western allies will soon get tired of sending money and weapons to prop up comedian govt. Then there is rebuilding..it will take trillions to rebuild Ukraine...I doubt western allies are eager to cough that money.
Title: Re: Why won't Germany, US send Leopard 2, Abrams tanks to Ukraine?
Post by: patel on January 21, 2023, 06:38:18 PM
Russia has proven sanctions can only work on small economies like Mugabe Zimbabwe. Russia still exporting most of their oil and gas to Europe. I doubt China and India are ready to suffer to please western govt.  Its purely selfish and stupid to subject Ukrainian to this kind of misery on unwinnable war fighting with borrowed equipment. If Nato want to win or think they can win they would send boots to the ground. Outcome is obvious.
Russian will be defeated and will foot the bill. Western allies are lynching Putin. He cant win. They will keep sending weapons while increasing sanctions on Russia.

The last thing remaining is to ask China and India to cut off trade with Russia. Trust me India and China will not lose EU/US market for cheap Russian oil/gas.

Then Russia will rush to negotiation table - they will be told to get out of Ukraine - retain Crimea - and rebuild Ukraine - from their oil and gas - which EU will import for free :) and money wired to Ukraine - until Russia complete paying for senseless shelling - in meantime Ukraine will be part of EU/NATO.

Putin by then is likely to have been killed by russians.

This works to Putin advantage. Russian Military can afford to sit back sending few missiles to Kiev every now and then. Can Ukraine afford that ? 80% of ukraine population has no power or gas in the middle of winter. Western allies will soon get tired of sending money and weapons to prop up comedian govt. Then there is rebuilding..it will take trillions to rebuild Ukraine...I doubt western allies are eager to cough that money.
Title: Re: Why won't Germany, US send Leopard 2, Abrams tanks to Ukraine?
Post by: Nowayhaha on January 21, 2023, 07:17:46 PM
Russia defeated Hitler and his coalition of Axis even though it took five years . It will be replicated  . Afghanistan were sanctioned to the core and NATO coalition had the most advanced weapons and equipments  but still lost after 20 years of waging the war.

You seem not to understand what is happening when you think India and China will join ant Russia coalition actually the opposite is happening they have increased their trade with Russia . China is already in Cold war with Western countries being sanctioned left and right .
I think you dont understand that Russia has not even mobilized . Russia has a population of more than a hundred Million if they were to enter a patriotic war their full mobilization will be the current remaining Ukrainian population.
Pundit it took a month for you to get brainwashed by Western media now think of those who have been feeding of Western media since 1980s.

Russian will be defeated and will foot the bill. Western allies are lynching Putin. He cant win. They will keep sending weapons while increasing sanctions on Russia.

The last thing remaining is to ask China and India to cut off trade with Russia. Trust me India and China will not lose EU/US market for cheap Russian oil/gas.

Then Russia will rush to negotiation table - they will be told to get out of Ukraine - retain Crimea - and rebuild Ukraine - from their oil and gas - which EU will import for free :) and money wired to Ukraine - until Russia complete paying for senseless shelling - in meantime Ukraine will be part of EU/NATO.

Putin by then is likely to have been killed by russians.

This works to Putin advantage. Russian Military can afford to sit back sending few missiles to Kiev every now and then. Can Ukraine afford that ? 80% of ukraine population has no power or gas in the middle of winter. Western allies will soon get tired of sending money and weapons to prop up comedian govt. Then there is rebuilding..it will take trillions to rebuild Ukraine...I doubt western allies are eager to cough that money.
Title: Re: Why won't Germany, US send Leopard 2, Abrams tanks to Ukraine?
Post by: RV Pundit on January 21, 2023, 07:34:34 PM
Wacha mambo ya World war 2 :)

USSR/Soviet were defeated by US in afgan using this same Ukranian model - marking the end of cold war.
US financed Muhajideen who gave Soviet/USSR hell for 10yrs - while their economy tanked.

Russia is fighting a lost battle - because Ukraine are fighting in their country.
Russia are not welcomed in Ukraine.

For Russia to win this war - they should have gone for quck SHOCK and AWE - take over KIEV - put Russian leaning president - then do fake referendum in Donbas/Luhasnk.

They failed. They've now lost 100k men - lost territory - and Ukraine is getting free weapons.

What is happening here is very clear.

Western Alies are united. EU/US is like 50% of world economy.

Europe now are busy decoupling from Russia. It almost complete.

Once they are energy sufficient - next is to find India/China alternative oil and gas- this is maybe 1-2yrs away - EU/US oil majors are busy at work.

Then they squeeze Russia. They just need to squeeze oil and gas exports - Russia goes bankrupt.

In meantime Ukrainian are doing great job because they are fighting at home.

Russia defeated Hitler and his coalition of Axis even though it took five years . It will be replicated  . Afghanistan were sanctioned to the core and NATO coalition had the most advanced weapons and equipments  but still lost after 20 years of waging the war.

You seem not to understand what is happening when you think India and China will join ant Russia coalition actually the opposite is happening they have increased their trade with Russia . China is already in Cold war with Western countries being sanctioned left and right .
I think you dont understand that Russia has not even mobilized . Russia has a population of more than a hundred Million if they were to enter a patriotic war their full mobilization will be the current remaining Ukrainian population.
Pundit it took a month for you to get brainwashed by Western media now think of those who have been feeding of Western media since 1980s.
Title: Re: Why won't Germany, US send Leopard 2, Abrams tanks to Ukraine?
Post by: Nowayhaha on January 21, 2023, 07:38:34 PM
Lots of theories. Before I go further answer this question .
How did U.S. defeat Soviets in Afghanistan and they lost to Afghanistan in Afghanistan ?

Wacha mambo ya World war 2 :)

USSR/Soviet were defeated by US in afgan using this same Ukranian model - marking the end of cold war.
US financed Muhajideen who gave Soviet/USSR hell for 10yrs - while their economy tanked.

Russia is fighting a lost battle - because Ukraine are fighting in their country.
Russia are not welcomed in Ukraine.

For Russia to win this war - they should have gone for quck SHOCK and AWE - take over KIEV - put Russian leaning president - then do fake referendum in Donbas/Luhasnk.

They failed.

What is happening here is very clear.

Western Alies are united. EU/US is like 50% of world economy.

Europe now are busy decoupling from Russia. It almost complete.

Once they are energy sufficient - next is to find India/China alternative oil and gas.

Then they squeeze Russia.

In meantime Ukrainian are doing great job because they are fighting at home.

Russia defeated Hitler and his coalition of Axis even though it took five years . It will be replicated  . Afghanistan were sanctioned to the core and NATO coalition had the most advanced weapons and equipments  but still lost after 20 years of waging the war.

You seem not to understand what is happening when you think India and China will join ant Russia coalition actually the opposite is happening they have increased their trade with Russia . China is already in Cold war with Western countries being sanctioned left and right .
I think you dont understand that Russia has not even mobilized . Russia has a population of more than a hundred Million if they were to enter a patriotic war their full mobilization will be the current remaining Ukrainian population.
Pundit it took a month for you to get brainwashed by Western media now think of those who have been feeding of Western media since 1980s.
Title: Re: Why won't Germany, US send Leopard 2, Abrams tanks to Ukraine?
Post by: RV Pundit on January 21, 2023, 07:45:52 PM
Soviet-Afgan - US backed Afgan - end results - Soviet collapse.

NATO versus Afgan -  NATO pulled out

Difference - Democracy versus Dictatorship.

US has managed to get out of bad wars because the politicians listen to public or they get fired. Veitnam/Afgan/etc - Western Nations cut their losses when it became unjustifiably high.

Russia only listen to Putin Now. He can dig in for a long time - at great cost - already 100K russian soldiers dead


Lots of theories. Before I go further answer this question .
How did U.S. defeat Soviets in Afghanistan and they lost to Afghanistan in Afghanistan ?

Wacha mambo ya World war 2 :)

USSR/Soviet were defeated by US in afgan using this same Ukranian model - marking the end of cold war.
US financed Muhajideen who gave Soviet/USSR hell for 10yrs - while their economy tanked.

Russia is fighting a lost battle - because Ukraine are fighting in their country.
Russia are not welcomed in Ukraine.

For Russia to win this war - they should have gone for quck SHOCK and AWE - take over KIEV - put Russian leaning president - then do fake referendum in Donbas/Luhasnk.

They failed.

What is happening here is very clear.

Western Alies are united. EU/US is like 50% of world economy.

Europe now are busy decoupling from Russia. It almost complete.

Once they are energy sufficient - next is to find India/China alternative oil and gas.

Then they squeeze Russia.

In meantime Ukrainian are doing great job because they are fighting at home.

Russia defeated Hitler and his coalition of Axis even though it took five years . It will be replicated  . Afghanistan were sanctioned to the core and NATO coalition had the most advanced weapons and equipments  but still lost after 20 years of waging the war.

You seem not to understand what is happening when you think India and China will join ant Russia coalition actually the opposite is happening they have increased their trade with Russia . China is already in Cold war with Western countries being sanctioned left and right .
I think you dont understand that Russia has not even mobilized . Russia has a population of more than a hundred Million if they were to enter a patriotic war their full mobilization will be the current remaining Ukrainian population.
Pundit it took a month for you to get brainwashed by Western media now think of those who have been feeding of Western media since 1980s.
Title: Re: Why won't Germany, US send Leopard 2, Abrams tanks to Ukraine?
Post by: Nowayhaha on January 21, 2023, 07:54:05 PM




When I say some people are brainwashed by Western media I mean . So for Pundit Soviet were defeated but U.S withdrew .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War

Soviet exit and change of Afghan leadership, 1985–1989
Foreign diplomatic efforts
As early as 1983, Pakistan's Foreign Ministry began working with the Soviet Union to provide them an exit from Afghanistan, initiatives led by Foreign Minister Yaqub Ali Khan and Khurshid Kasuri. Despite an active support for insurgent groups, Pakistanis remained sympathetic to the challenges faced by the Soviets in restoring the peace, eventually exploring the possibility of setting up an interim system of government under former monarch Zahir Shah, but this was not authorized by President Zia-ul-Haq due to his stance on the issue of the Durand line.:?247–248?[230] In 1984–85, Foreign Minister Yaqub Ali Khan paid state visits to China, Saudi Arabia, Soviet Union, France, United States and the United Kingdom in order to develop a framework. On 20 July 1987, the withdrawal of Soviet troops from the country was announced. The withdrawal of Soviet forces was planned out by Col. General Boris Gromov, who, at the time, was the commander of the 40th Army.[citation needed]

April 1985 – January 1987: Exit strategy

Awards ceremony for the 9th Company

Soviet soldier in Afghanistan, 1988
The first step of the Soviet Union's exit strategy was to transfer the burden of fighting the Mujahideen to the Afghan armed forces, with the aim of preparing them to operate without Soviet help. During this phase, the Soviet contingent was restricted to supporting the DRA forces by providing artillery, air support and technical assistance, though some large-scale operations were still carried out by Soviet troops.

Under Soviet guidance, the DRA armed forces were built up to an official strength of 302,000 in 1986. To minimize the risk of a coup d'état, they were divided into different branches, each modeled on its Soviet counterpart. The ministry of defence forces numbered 132,000, the ministry of interior 70,000 and the ministry of state security (KHAD) 80,000

Soviet-Afgan - US backed Afgan - end results - Soviet collapse.

NATO versus Afgan -  NATO pulled out

Difference - Democracy versus Dictatorship.

US has managed to get out of bad wars because the politicians listen to public or they get fired. Veitnam/Afgan/etc - Western Nations cut their losses when it became unjustifiably high.

Russia only listen to Putin Now. He can dig in for a long time - at great cost - already 100K russian soldiers dead


Lots of theories. Before I go further answer this question .
How did U.S. defeat Soviets in Afghanistan and they lost to Afghanistan in Afghanistan ?

Wacha mambo ya World war 2 :)

USSR/Soviet were defeated by US in afgan using this same Ukranian model - marking the end of cold war.
US financed Muhajideen who gave Soviet/USSR hell for 10yrs - while their economy tanked.

Russia is fighting a lost battle - because Ukraine are fighting in their country.
Russia are not welcomed in Ukraine.

For Russia to win this war - they should have gone for quck SHOCK and AWE - take over KIEV - put Russian leaning president - then do fake referendum in Donbas/Luhasnk.

They failed.

What is happening here is very clear.

Western Alies are united. EU/US is like 50% of world economy.

Europe now are busy decoupling from Russia. It almost complete.

Once they are energy sufficient - next is to find India/China alternative oil and gas.

Then they squeeze Russia.

In meantime Ukrainian are doing great job because they are fighting at home.

Russia defeated Hitler and his coalition of Axis even though it took five years . It will be replicated  . Afghanistan were sanctioned to the core and NATO coalition had the most advanced weapons and equipments  but still lost after 20 years of waging the war.

You seem not to understand what is happening when you think India and China will join ant Russia coalition actually the opposite is happening they have increased their trade with Russia . China is already in Cold war with Western countries being sanctioned left and right .
I think you dont understand that Russia has not even mobilized . Russia has a population of more than a hundred Million if they were to enter a patriotic war their full mobilization will be the current remaining Ukrainian population.
Pundit it took a month for you to get brainwashed by Western media now think of those who have been feeding of Western media since 1980s.
Title: Re: Why won't Germany, US send Leopard 2, Abrams tanks to Ukraine?
Post by: RV Pundit on January 21, 2023, 07:55:29 PM
Soviet withdrew then collapse or Collapsing Soviet withdrew.
When I say some people are brainwashed by Western media I mean . So for Pundit Soviet were defeated but U.S withdrew .


Soviet exit and change of Afghan leadership, 1985–1989
Foreign diplomatic efforts
As early as 1983, Pakistan's Foreign Ministry began working with the Soviet Union to provide them an exit from Afghanistan, initiatives led by Foreign Minister Yaqub Ali Khan and Khurshid Kasuri. Despite an active support for insurgent groups, Pakistanis remained sympathetic to the challenges faced by the Soviets in restoring the peace, eventually exploring the possibility of setting up an interim system of government under former monarch Zahir Shah, but this was not authorized by President Zia-ul-Haq due to his stance on the issue of the Durand line.:?247–248?[230] In 1984–85, Foreign Minister Yaqub Ali Khan paid state visits to China, Saudi Arabia, Soviet Union, France, United States and the United Kingdom in order to develop a framework. On 20 July 1987, the withdrawal of Soviet troops from the country was announced. The withdrawal of Soviet forces was planned out by Col. General Boris Gromov, who, at the time, was the commander of the 40th Army.[citation needed]

April 1985 – January 1987: Exit strategy

Awards ceremony for the 9th Company

Soviet soldier in Afghanistan, 1988
The first step of the Soviet Union's exit strategy was to transfer the burden of fighting the Mujahideen to the Afghan armed forces, with the aim of preparing them to operate without Soviet help. During this phase, the Soviet contingent was restricted to supporting the DRA forces by providing artillery, air support and technical assistance, though some large-scale operations were still carried out by Soviet troops.

Under Soviet guidance, the DRA armed forces were built up to an official strength of 302,000 in 1986. To minimize the risk of a coup d'état, they were divided into different branches, each modeled on its Soviet counterpart. The ministry of defence forces numbered 132,000, the ministry of interior 70,000 and the ministry of state security (KHAD) 80,000

Soviet-Afgan - US backed Afgan - end results - Soviet collapse.

NATO versus Afgan -  NATO pulled out

Difference - Democracy versus Dictatorship.

US has managed to get out of bad wars because the politicians listen to public or they get fired. Veitnam/Afgan/etc - Western Nations cut their losses when it became unjustifiably high.

Russia only listen to Putin Now. He can dig in for a long time - at great cost - already 100K russian soldiers dead


Lots of theories. Before I go further answer this question .
How did U.S. defeat Soviets in Afghanistan and they lost to Afghanistan in Afghanistan ?

Wacha mambo ya World war 2 :)

USSR/Soviet were defeated by US in afgan using this same Ukranian model - marking the end of cold war.
US financed Muhajideen who gave Soviet/USSR hell for 10yrs - while their economy tanked.

Russia is fighting a lost battle - because Ukraine are fighting in their country.
Russia are not welcomed in Ukraine.

For Russia to win this war - they should have gone for quck SHOCK and AWE - take over KIEV - put Russian leaning president - then do fake referendum in Donbas/Luhasnk.

They failed.

What is happening here is very clear.

Western Alies are united. EU/US is like 50% of world economy.

Europe now are busy decoupling from Russia. It almost complete.

Once they are energy sufficient - next is to find India/China alternative oil and gas.

Then they squeeze Russia.

In meantime Ukrainian are doing great job because they are fighting at home.

Russia defeated Hitler and his coalition of Axis even though it took five years . It will be replicated  . Afghanistan were sanctioned to the core and NATO coalition had the most advanced weapons and equipments  but still lost after 20 years of waging the war.

You seem not to understand what is happening when you think India and China will join ant Russia coalition actually the opposite is happening they have increased their trade with Russia . China is already in Cold war with Western countries being sanctioned left and right .
I think you dont understand that Russia has not even mobilized . Russia has a population of more than a hundred Million if they were to enter a patriotic war their full mobilization will be the current remaining Ukrainian population.
Pundit it took a month for you to get brainwashed by Western media now think of those who have been feeding of Western media since 1980s.
Title: Re: Why won't Germany, US send Leopard 2, Abrams tanks to Ukraine?
Post by: Nowayhaha on January 21, 2023, 08:01:41 PM
Collapse of Soviet squarely lays in the hand of Gorbachiev through his policies if Glasnost ,Perestroika  and his not intervention foreign policy . Putin also made the mistakes by refusing to intervene in Ukraine in 2014 when the President of Ukraine Yankuvich had given him greenlight under international law to help quell rhe western sponsored revolution in Ukraine . He learnt from mistakes and intervened to save Asad in Syria and last year stopped the revolution in Kazakhstan. He currently is correcting his mistakes . Allowing Baltic countries to enter NATO was a mistake.
You seem not to understand what is happening only parroting What Western media is broadcasting daily .


Soviet withdrew then collapse or Collapsing Soviet withdrew.
When I say some people are brainwashed by Western media I mean . So for Pundit Soviet were defeated but U.S withdrew .


Soviet exit and change of Afghan leadership, 1985–1989
Foreign diplomatic efforts
As early as 1983, Pakistan's Foreign Ministry began working with the Soviet Union to provide them an exit from Afghanistan, initiatives led by Foreign Minister Yaqub Ali Khan and Khurshid Kasuri. Despite an active support for insurgent groups, Pakistanis remained sympathetic to the challenges faced by the Soviets in restoring the peace, eventually exploring the possibility of setting up an interim system of government under former monarch Zahir Shah, but this was not authorized by President Zia-ul-Haq due to his stance on the issue of the Durand line.:?247–248?[230] In 1984–85, Foreign Minister Yaqub Ali Khan paid state visits to China, Saudi Arabia, Soviet Union, France, United States and the United Kingdom in order to develop a framework. On 20 July 1987, the withdrawal of Soviet troops from the country was announced. The withdrawal of Soviet forces was planned out by Col. General Boris Gromov, who, at the time, was the commander of the 40th Army.[citation needed]

April 1985 – January 1987: Exit strategy

Awards ceremony for the 9th Company

Soviet soldier in Afghanistan, 1988
The first step of the Soviet Union's exit strategy was to transfer the burden of fighting the Mujahideen to the Afghan armed forces, with the aim of preparing them to operate without Soviet help. During this phase, the Soviet contingent was restricted to supporting the DRA forces by providing artillery, air support and technical assistance, though some large-scale operations were still carried out by Soviet troops.

Under Soviet guidance, the DRA armed forces were built up to an official strength of 302,000 in 1986. To minimize the risk of a coup d'état, they were divided into different branches, each modeled on its Soviet counterpart. The ministry of defence forces numbered 132,000, the ministry of interior 70,000 and the ministry of state security (KHAD) 80,000

Soviet-Afgan - US backed Afgan - end results - Soviet collapse.

NATO versus Afgan -  NATO pulled out

Difference - Democracy versus Dictatorship.

US has managed to get out of bad wars because the politicians listen to public or they get fired. Veitnam/Afgan/etc - Western Nations cut their losses when it became unjustifiably high.

Russia only listen to Putin Now. He can dig in for a long time - at great cost - already 100K russian soldiers dead


Lots of theories. Before I go further answer this question .
How did U.S. defeat Soviets in Afghanistan and they lost to Afghanistan in Afghanistan ?

Wacha mambo ya World war 2 :)

USSR/Soviet were defeated by US in afgan using this same Ukranian model - marking the end of cold war.
US financed Muhajideen who gave Soviet/USSR hell for 10yrs - while their economy tanked.

Russia is fighting a lost battle - because Ukraine are fighting in their country.
Russia are not welcomed in Ukraine.

For Russia to win this war - they should have gone for quck SHOCK and AWE - take over KIEV - put Russian leaning president - then do fake referendum in Donbas/Luhasnk.

They failed.

What is happening here is very clear.

Western Alies are united. EU/US is like 50% of world economy.

Europe now are busy decoupling from Russia. It almost complete.

Once they are energy sufficient - next is to find India/China alternative oil and gas.

Then they squeeze Russia.

In meantime Ukrainian are doing great job because they are fighting at home.

Russia defeated Hitler and his coalition of Axis even though it took five years . It will be replicated  . Afghanistan were sanctioned to the core and NATO coalition had the most advanced weapons and equipments  but still lost after 20 years of waging the war.

You seem not to understand what is happening when you think India and China will join ant Russia coalition actually the opposite is happening they have increased their trade with Russia . China is already in Cold war with Western countries being sanctioned left and right .
I think you dont understand that Russia has not even mobilized . Russia has a population of more than a hundred Million if they were to enter a patriotic war their full mobilization will be the current remaining Ukrainian population.
Pundit it took a month for you to get brainwashed by Western media now think of those who have been feeding of Western media since 1980s.
Title: Re: Why won't Germany, US send Leopard 2, Abrams tanks to Ukraine?
Post by: Nowayhaha on January 21, 2023, 08:23:24 PM
Title: Re: Why won't Germany, US send Leopard 2, Abrams tanks to Ukraine?
Post by: RV Pundit on January 22, 2023, 11:26:51 AM
Yes i dont understand


Has Putin outsmarted the West?
A Russian wife turned to her husband and asked, "What's this special military operation our glorious leader keeps talking about?" Her husband replied, "It's a war to stop America and NATO." "Oh, right” she says “How's it going?"

“Well” he replied “so far we have lost over 20 generals, 110,000 troops killed, countless injured, 3000 tanks, 300 aircraft, hundreds of helicopters, countless armoured vehicles, artillery and trucks, our flagship along with other naval ships, our army is being defeated in most areas and we have had to resort to conscription to replace our losses”.

“Wow” replied the wife “what about America and NATO”?

“They haven’t turned up yet”


Collapse of Soviet squarely lays in the hand of Gorbachiev through his policies if Glasnost ,Perestroika  and his not intervention foreign policy . Putin also made the mistakes by refusing to intervene in Ukraine in 2014 when the President of Ukraine Yankuvich had given him greenlight under international law to help quell rhe western sponsored revolution in Ukraine . He learnt from mistakes and intervened to save Asad in Syria and last year stopped the revolution in Kazakhstan. He currently is correcting his mistakes . Allowing Baltic countries to enter NATO was a mistake.
You seem not to understand what is happening only parroting What Western media is broadcasting daily .


Soviet withdrew then collapse or Collapsing Soviet withdrew.
When I say some people are brainwashed by Western media I mean . So for Pundit Soviet were defeated but U.S withdrew .


Soviet exit and change of Afghan leadership, 1985–1989
Foreign diplomatic efforts
As early as 1983, Pakistan's Foreign Ministry began working with the Soviet Union to provide them an exit from Afghanistan, initiatives led by Foreign Minister Yaqub Ali Khan and Khurshid Kasuri. Despite an active support for insurgent groups, Pakistanis remained sympathetic to the challenges faced by the Soviets in restoring the peace, eventually exploring the possibility of setting up an interim system of government under former monarch Zahir Shah, but this was not authorized by President Zia-ul-Haq due to his stance on the issue of the Durand line.:?247–248?[230] In 1984–85, Foreign Minister Yaqub Ali Khan paid state visits to China, Saudi Arabia, Soviet Union, France, United States and the United Kingdom in order to develop a framework. On 20 July 1987, the withdrawal of Soviet troops from the country was announced. The withdrawal of Soviet forces was planned out by Col. General Boris Gromov, who, at the time, was the commander of the 40th Army.[citation needed]

April 1985 – January 1987: Exit strategy

Awards ceremony for the 9th Company

Soviet soldier in Afghanistan, 1988
The first step of the Soviet Union's exit strategy was to transfer the burden of fighting the Mujahideen to the Afghan armed forces, with the aim of preparing them to operate without Soviet help. During this phase, the Soviet contingent was restricted to supporting the DRA forces by providing artillery, air support and technical assistance, though some large-scale operations were still carried out by Soviet troops.

Under Soviet guidance, the DRA armed forces were built up to an official strength of 302,000 in 1986. To minimize the risk of a coup d'état, they were divided into different branches, each modeled on its Soviet counterpart. The ministry of defence forces numbered 132,000, the ministry of interior 70,000 and the ministry of state security (KHAD) 80,000

Soviet-Afgan - US backed Afgan - end results - Soviet collapse.

NATO versus Afgan -  NATO pulled out

Difference - Democracy versus Dictatorship.

US has managed to get out of bad wars because the politicians listen to public or they get fired. Veitnam/Afgan/etc - Western Nations cut their losses when it became unjustifiably high.

Russia only listen to Putin Now. He can dig in for a long time - at great cost - already 100K russian soldiers dead


Lots of theories. Before I go further answer this question .
How did U.S. defeat Soviets in Afghanistan and they lost to Afghanistan in Afghanistan ?

Wacha mambo ya World war 2 :)

USSR/Soviet were defeated by US in afgan using this same Ukranian model - marking the end of cold war.
US financed Muhajideen who gave Soviet/USSR hell for 10yrs - while their economy tanked.

Russia is fighting a lost battle - because Ukraine are fighting in their country.
Russia are not welcomed in Ukraine.

For Russia to win this war - they should have gone for quck SHOCK and AWE - take over KIEV - put Russian leaning president - then do fake referendum in Donbas/Luhasnk.

They failed.

What is happening here is very clear.

Western Alies are united. EU/US is like 50% of world economy.

Europe now are busy decoupling from Russia. It almost complete.

Once they are energy sufficient - next is to find India/China alternative oil and gas.

Then they squeeze Russia.

In meantime Ukrainian are doing great job because they are fighting at home.

Russia defeated Hitler and his coalition of Axis even though it took five years . It will be replicated  . Afghanistan were sanctioned to the core and NATO coalition had the most advanced weapons and equipments  but still lost after 20 years of waging the war.

You seem not to understand what is happening when you think India and China will join ant Russia coalition actually the opposite is happening they have increased their trade with Russia . China is already in Cold war with Western countries being sanctioned left and right .
I think you dont understand that Russia has not even mobilized . Russia has a population of more than a hundred Million if they were to enter a patriotic war their full mobilization will be the current remaining Ukrainian population.
Pundit it took a month for you to get brainwashed by Western media now think of those who have been feeding of Western media since 1980s.