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Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: High Roller on September 19, 2022, 02:44:33 AM

Title: Kenya is very broke
Post by: High Roller on September 19, 2022, 02:44:33 AM
When the former president looted billions from the country's coffers, a country contending with a ballooning public sector wage bill and the current annual legislature’s budget is 2% of the national budget. What do you expect?

Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: Georgesoros on September 19, 2022, 01:05:02 PM
Is this propaganda???

Money comes from taxation and fees, did KRA stop collecting after Uhuru left?
Uhuru took KRA with him??
Then how come they keep spending if there is no money??
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: gout on September 19, 2022, 01:33:25 PM
They need to give a billion funding to Assets Recovery Agency in the supplementary budget.  Let it go after the saboteurs named in Auditor reports and state capture commission with a hammer.
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: gout on September 19, 2022, 01:51:25 PM
This is Agenda 1.2.3 -100. 

Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants on September 19, 2022, 02:49:16 PM
When the former president looted billions from the country's coffers, a country contending with a ballooning public sector wage bill and the current annual legislature’s budget is 2% of the national budget. What do you expect?



Faruku Kibitz went to loot the vault and found nothing.  Yoh!
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: RV Pundit on September 19, 2022, 03:30:48 PM
Treasury is broke if total KRA collect monthly is not enough to meet debt repayment+consolidated accounts requirements+salary+development.
KRA collects 150-200B per month.
Treasury also tries to borrow every month - another 50-60B - this normally takes care of debt repayment - we are refinancing basically.
Problem is the 150B - enough to meet consolidated payments+pension+salaries+recurrent expenditure+ development.
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: hk on September 19, 2022, 03:35:13 PM
Kenya debt distress started all the way back in 2018, that's when it was forced to impose vat on fuel by IMF. All that time government has been borrowing and spending to keep the economy afloat. Whitewashing the 1st jubilee government and going after second term thieves wont cut it. The reality is government economic policy has to be driven by prevailing conditions.
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: RV Pundit on September 19, 2022, 04:03:38 PM
When they put the Borana I knew it was dead. Nobody want to touch it now because you spend all your time on phone calls trying to raise money - instead of spending or looting money. Borana has eaten the last bit of it
Kenya debt distress started all the way back in 2018, that's when it was forced to impose vat on fuel by IMF. All that time government has been borrowing and spending to keep the economy afloat. Whitewashing the 1st jubilee government and going after second term thieves wont cut it. The reality is government economic policy has to be driven by prevailing conditions.
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: Georgesoros on September 19, 2022, 06:36:05 PM
When they put the Borana I knew it was dead. Nobody want to touch it now because you spend all your time on phone calls trying to raise money - instead of spending or looting money. Borana has eaten the last bit of it
Kenya debt distress started all the way back in 2018, that's when it was forced to impose vat on fuel by IMF. All that time government has been borrowing and spending to keep the economy afloat. Whitewashing the 1st jubilee government and going after second term thieves wont cut it. The reality is government economic policy has to be driven by prevailing conditions.

So is there money coming in or not?

If so, how short and what is the solution?
Give exact figure, because stolen is so broad.

Whoever stole let govt go after them, stop politicizing it.
Sounds like someone has no plan and keeps repeating "stolen" and in this case they dont have to do anything.
Beside Ruto was in govt as a VP
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: RV Pundit on September 19, 2022, 06:48:57 PM
Tulia.
The details will emerge soon.
What is not in doubt - gov is broke.
Ruto will not be judged for his vp or dp record.
He will be charged - 5yrs from now.
You will need a lot of patience.
This is not a week even.

So is there money coming in or not?

If so, how short and what is the solution?
Give exact figure, because stolen is so broad.

Whoever stole let govt go after them, stop politicizing it.
Sounds like someone has no plan and keeps repeating "stolen" and in this case they dont have to do anything.
Beside Ruto was in govt as a VP
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: Georgesoros on September 19, 2022, 06:58:12 PM
Tulia.
The details will emerge soon.
What is not in doubt - gov is broke.
Ruto will not be judged for his vp or dp record.
He will be charged - 5yrs from now.
You will need a lot of patience.
This is not a week even.

So is there money coming in or not?

If so, how short and what is the solution?
Give exact figure, because stolen is so broad.

Whoever stole let govt go after them, stop politicizing it.
Sounds like someone has no plan and keeps repeating "stolen" and in this case they dont have to do anything.
Beside Ruto was in govt as a VP

If he knew what was going on and kept mum, then in my opinion he lost credibility. Take responsibility and stop the propaganda. Going forward, whatis the solution???
He was in govt as a VP, let him not deny it. He must be judged on his performance, otherwise.... He was privy to what was going on - if there is anything.
Let the law take care of law breakers.
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: Georgesoros on September 19, 2022, 07:09:23 PM
Kenya debt distress started all the way back in 2018, that's when it was forced to impose vat on fuel by IMF. All that time government has been borrowing and spending to keep the economy afloat. Whitewashing the 1st jubilee government and going after second term thieves wont cut it. The reality is government economic policy has to be driven by prevailing conditions.

HK.
What I see in Kenya, those who are well off pay no taxes at all. The working class takes care of all the bills. They have had it. Fuel tax is a burden on the working class, yet if i have 10 apartments I pay little to no tax. If I own 1mil acres of land I pay NO TAX. Yet a matatu driver must pay tax every time he she gets out of the house. It is a rich eating the middle class in Kenya, and politicians joining in. Also too many regulations that impede development - why should AirBnB be classified under big hotel? Counties also impose ridicilous tax on any business - thus discouraging development. Man more. My 2 cents.
Ruto has been in govt and never said a word, now pretends to have an imaginary plan. Where is it? I believe in action not talk.
I want to hear "next month we will do such and such", not they stole crap.
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: RV Pundit on September 19, 2022, 08:57:02 PM
When Ruto run gov - btw 2013-2017 - not one day did he shrink his responibility - not one day did he fail to defend his record - then it was 50-50 coalition. Jubilee got elected by 5% more votes. Huge. They defended their record. Economy was booming. There was electricity, tarmac, name it everywhere. People were happy and looking forward for another 5yrs of Jubilee.

Ruto was promptly kicked out in 2nd term

You have to be totally insane to demand Ruto take responsibility for a gov he was a spare tire.

The spare tire that never got used.

People of kenya are more sane than you - they punished Uhuru - and rewarded Ruto.

Ruto has had a chance of leadership - from MP, Minister, DPORK an now PORk.

Everytime he delivers..

If he knew what was going on and kept mum, then in my opinion he lost credibility. Take responsibility and stop the propaganda. Going forward, whatis the solution???
He was in govt as a VP, let him not deny it. He must be judged on his performance, otherwise.... He was privy to what was going on - if there is anything.
Let the law take care of law breakers.
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: High Roller on September 20, 2022, 10:10:48 PM
Is this propaganda???

Money comes from taxation and fees, did KRA stop collecting after Uhuru left?
Uhuru took KRA with him??
Then how come they keep spending if there is no money??

It is obvious KRA is missing revenue target and are falling behind. Expenses are exceeding revenue. The government need to find ways to increase revenue generated, reduce expenses, or a combination of the two.
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: sema on September 20, 2022, 11:27:14 PM
Quote
The government need to find ways to increase revenue generated

For this to happen, the people need to become more productive. They need to make things that people want or need. I keep asking what it is that Kenya makes that other countries NEED?
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: Wa Njambi on September 21, 2022, 12:30:51 AM
Omera this is not good 'dialogue' by Riggy D. Someone tell him the meaning of You Touch It You Own It. In Politics, you'll own the blame for what inherit period. Your duty is better the mess you inherit and do more. For a tenure of 60 months, you don't have time/luxury to go after akina Murathe. Plus somethings are best left for boardroom discussion to avoid public panic. Another path can be to leak it to Journalists and let them drive it. I wonder Kibaki inherited from Moi, and look at the public confidence and optimism he built!

Treasury is broke if total KRA collect monthly is not enough to meet debt repayment+consolidated accounts requirements+salary+development.
KRA collects 150-200B per month.
Treasury also tries to borrow every month - another 50-60B - this normally takes care of debt repayment - we are refinancing basically.
Problem is the 150B - enough to meet consolidated payments+pension+salaries+recurrent expenditure+ development.
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: RV Heavy Hitter! on September 21, 2022, 04:59:32 AM
Omera this is not good 'dialogue' by Riggy D. Someone tell him the meaning of You Touch It You Own It. In Politics, you'll own the blame for what inherit period. Your duty is better the mess you inherit and do more. For a tenure of 60 months, you don't have time/luxury to go after akina Murathe. Plus somethings are best left for boardroom discussion to avoid public panic. Another path can be to leak it to Journalists and let them drive it. I wonder Kibaki inherited from Moi, and look at the public confidence and optimism he built!

Treasury is broke if total KRA collect monthly is not enough to meet debt repayment+consolidated accounts requirements+salary+development.
KRA collects 150-200B per month.
Treasury also tries to borrow every month - another 50-60B - this normally takes care of debt repayment - we are refinancing basically.
Problem is the 150B - enough to meet consolidated payments+pension+salaries+recurrent expenditure+ development.


From Githongo, Moi left Kibaki with a very fat Treasury in billions that kept Kibaki Rolling on day one. Uhuru left less than 100 millions shillings in the Treasury. Come to think about it and most of us in the diaspora were richer than Kenya's Treasury.   
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: RV Heavy Hitter! on September 21, 2022, 05:01:08 AM
Omera this is not good 'dialogue' by Riggy D. Someone tell him the meaning of You Touch It You Own It. In Politics, you'll own the blame for what inherit period. Your duty is better the mess you inherit and do more. For a tenure of 60 months, you don't have time/luxury to go after akina Murathe. Plus somethings are best left for boardroom discussion to avoid public panic. Another path can be to leak it to Journalists and let them drive it. I wonder Kibaki inherited from Moi, and look at the public confidence and optimism he built!

Treasury is broke if total KRA collect monthly is not enough to meet debt repayment+consolidated accounts requirements+salary+development.
KRA collects 150-200B per month.
Treasury also tries to borrow every month - another 50-60B - this normally takes care of debt repayment - we are refinancing basically.
Problem is the 150B - enough to meet consolidated payments+pension+salaries+recurrent expenditure+ development.
From Githongo, Moi left Kibaki with a very fat Treasury in billions that kept Kibaki Rolling on day one. Uhuru left less than 100 millions shillings in the Treasury. Come to think about it and most of us in the diaspora were richer than Kenya's Treasury.   
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: hk on September 21, 2022, 11:26:29 AM
Kenya debt distress started all the way back in 2018, that's when it was forced to impose vat on fuel by IMF. All that time government has been borrowing and spending to keep the economy afloat. Whitewashing the 1st jubilee government and going after second term thieves wont cut it. The reality is government economic policy has to be driven by prevailing conditions.

HK.
What I see in Kenya, those who are well off pay no taxes at all. The working class takes care of all the bills. They have had it. Fuel tax is a burden on the working class, yet if i have 10 apartments I pay little to no tax. If I own 1mil acres of land I pay NO TAX. Yet a matatu driver must pay tax every time he she gets out of the house. It is a rich eating the middle class in Kenya, and politicians joining in. Also too many regulations that impede development - why should AirBnB be classified under big hotel? Counties also impose ridicilous tax on any business - thus discouraging development. Man more. My 2 cents.
Ruto has been in govt and never said a word, now pretends to have an imaginary plan. Where is it? I believe in action not talk.
I want to hear "next month we will do such and such", not they stole crap.
Government is fixated on easy to collect taxes such as paye,vat, excise tax and import duty etc. Someone making 15k is taxed at 12% paye, there hasn't been any serious effort to broaden tax base. There's no incentive to formalize, there're several impediments to formalization mainly cost of complying.  The ideal situation would be to lower taxes and rope in everyone who's engaged in any economic activity. There's really no reason why someone making 15k should be paying paye , the starting rate should be at 30k and top rate should be someone making 300k not someone making 150k.
Bottomline kenya economy will remain informal until there's change of tax regime. Simple, broad and flat tax would be ideal. Its been 20yrs since etr were introduced a major upgrade connected to ecitizen is overdue.
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: gout on September 21, 2022, 11:44:05 AM
Low and middle income earners are overtaxed in Kenya. The elitist peddles the myth that this group does not pay taxes. 

Kenya debt distress started all the way back in 2018, that's when it was forced to impose vat on fuel by IMF. All that time government has been borrowing and spending to keep the economy afloat. Whitewashing the 1st jubilee government and going after second term thieves won't cut it. The reality is government economic policy has to be driven by prevailing conditions.

HK.
What I see in Kenya, those who are well off pay no taxes at all. The working class takes care of all the bills. They have had it. Fuel tax is a burden on the working class, yet if i have 10 apartments I pay little to no tax. If I own 1mil acres of land I pay NO TAX. Yet a matatu driver must pay tax every time he she gets out of the house. It is a rich eating the middle class in Kenya, and politicians joining in. Also too many regulations that impede development - why should AirBnB be classified under big hotel? Counties also impose ridicilous tax on any business - thus discouraging development. Man more. My 2 cents.
Ruto has been in govt and never said a word, now pretends to have an imaginary plan. Where is it? I believe in action not talk.
I want to hear "next month we will do such and such", not they stole crap.
Government is fixated on easy to collect taxes such as paye,vat, excise tax and import duty etc. Someone making 15k is taxed at 12% paye, there hasn't been any serious effort to broaden tax base. There's no incentive to formalize, there're several impediments to formalization mainly cost of complying.  The ideal situation would be to lower taxes and rope in everyone who's engaged in any economic activity. There's really no reason why someone making 15k should be paying paye , the starting rate should be at 30k and top rate should be someone making 300k not someone making 150k.
Bottomline kenya economy will remain informal until there's change of tax regime. Simple, broad and flat tax would be ideal. Its been 20yrs since etr were introduced a major upgrade connected to ecitizen is overdue.
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: hk on September 21, 2022, 11:45:54 AM
Quote
The government need to find ways to increase revenue generated

For this to happen, the people need to become more productive. They need to make things that people want or need. I keep asking what it is that Kenya makes that other countries NEED?
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.EXP.GNFS.CD?locations=KE kenya exports. Kenya exported $11b worth of goods and services  in 2021, those are things that other countries need or kenya has competitive advantage. There's really no difference between Bangladesh sweatshops and flower farms in Kenya. Actually I'd argue that horticulture has greater economic impact on an economy since it combines asset owner( small farmers) producing goods from their asset than just hired labor in sweatshops.
The question is how do we increase productivity and climb value chains in the things we do well. Take something like beverages, tea and coffee we're world beaters, how about combining tea or coffee with abundance of tropical fruits available to create soft drink we can sell locally and to the world? Basically kenya just needs a few true entrepreneurs in key economic sector to develop.
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: hk on September 21, 2022, 11:57:00 AM
Low and middle income earners are overtaxed in Kenya. The elitist peddles the myth that this group does not pay taxes. 
Yes low and middle income earners pay taxes mainly indirectly, its the reason why indirect taxes are high. Someone making 15K per month paying PAYE at 15% is being overtaxed and not to mention increasing the cost of labor for the employer. Surely someone making less than 30k shouldn't be paying paye at 15% plus pay all the other indirect taxes. There's empirical evidence that lowering and broadening taxbase increases tax revenue.  Landlord rate was reduced to a flat rate of 10% gross, now kra is collecting more taxes from landlords.
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: sema on September 21, 2022, 05:16:52 PM
Besides coffee, tea and flowers what else? what services? agriculture not enough for  a growing population that will surpass 50 million
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: hk on September 21, 2022, 06:10:47 PM
Besides coffee, tea and flowers what else? what services? agriculture not enough for  a growing population that will surpass 50 million
Of course its not enough that's why we not only need to increase productivity in agriculture, moving up the value chain is paramount if kenya is to develop. Agriculture underpins manufacturing in kenya. Any development would occur without investments(entrepreneurs),  so basically Kenya needs investors more than anything.
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: Georgesoros on September 21, 2022, 08:07:40 PM
Besides coffee, tea and flowers what else? what services? agriculture not enough for  a growing population that will surpass 50 million
Of course its not enough that's why we not only need to increase productivity in agriculture, moving up the value chain is paramount if kenya is to develop. Agriculture underpins manufacturing in kenya. Any development would occur without investments(entrepreneurs),  so basically Kenya needs investors more than anything.

One thing that attracts investors is rule of law. Recent supreme court made Kenya look really good. (Uhuru could have messed it but he did not utter a word). Strengthen institutions. Professional law enforcemnent, professional court system, etc.
I absolutely agree with you regarding changing the tax code. All need to pay. Everyone who owns property needs to pay tax, even if it if 100 shillings. Use the money to fund building schools. Counties should administer the money collection and use of these money. 5% can go into administration while the rest goes into building projects.
Businesses are leaving China in large numbers - attract them with tax incentives on capital invesrtments.
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: KenyanPlato on September 21, 2022, 08:13:43 PM
Besides coffee, tea and flowers what else? what services? agriculture not enough for  a growing population that will surpass 50 million
Of course its not enough that's why we not only need to increase productivity in agriculture, moving up the value chain is paramount if kenya is to develop. Agriculture underpins manufacturing in kenya. Any development would occur without investments(entrepreneurs),  so basically Kenya needs investors more than anything.
fruits, spices, meat, French beans a lot. we can export fish if we get the farming supply chain issues right. Kenya potential is in competitive advantage not export substitution
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: KenyanPlato on September 21, 2022, 08:14:25 PM
in my area we are now farming purple tea. we hope to have enough of it to start a separate factory line for it
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: gout on September 22, 2022, 09:22:44 AM
Service industry is doing well - the national internet framework and deals with Paypal should make it work even better.

Garments and leather - we need to exceed those AGOA quotas. We are yet to scratch the surface even with special power tariffs and tax holidays.

Affordable housing can graduate a million fundis with global standard skills to be on standby for hire anywhere in the world.
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: RV Pundit on September 22, 2022, 09:27:55 AM
This 11b dollars export doesn't sound real to me
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: RV Pundit on September 22, 2022, 09:33:38 AM
Get agriculture working, Get SEZ in lamu and Mombasa for EPZ kind of business... especially lamu idle deep sea port.I would go big in Lamu ..create 100,000 acre special economic zones with zero taxes, diplomatic status for investors...give them free land...then watch them employ millions and export merchandise worldwide...this should attract Chinese bound manufacturing.After 10yrs let them pay taxes...this should be top priority lamu and dog kundum.manufacturing cannot be done inland..it has to be near the port for easy raw materials shipping and export of finished goods.Lamu is ready with deep sea port..make it free port and include it as part of SEZ...fuck environmental issues about magrove....go big on solar  power...and build the coal plants
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: Stockguru on September 22, 2022, 12:28:02 PM
Get agriculture working, Get SEZ in lamu and Mombasa for EPZ kind of business... especially lamu idle deep sea port.I would go big in Lamu ..create 100,000 acre special economic zones with zero taxes, diplomatic status for investors...give them free land...then watch them employ millions and export merchandise worldwide...this should attract Chinese bound manufacturing.After 10yrs let them pay taxes...this should be top priority lamu and dog kundum.manufacturing cannot be done inland..it has to be near the port for easy raw materials shipping and export of finished goods.Lamu is ready with deep sea port..make it free port and include it as part of SEZ...fuck environmental issues about magrove....go big on solar  power...and build the coal plants

manufacturing can be done in Kisumu too.. very close to major EAC markets
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: RV Pundit on September 22, 2022, 05:08:37 PM
Can't scale in kisumu because our 200m plus market is very poor...we need to do export oriented manufacturing... enormous market to say US or Europe... trying to sell soap in poor DRC will not cut it.Look at Vietn. now..it's export value is greater than GDP...they export
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: RV Pundit on September 22, 2022, 05:10:26 PM
They export basic stuff like bikes... someone in Europe is willing to pay 8000usd for bicycle...we can build bicycles .Import substitution is never going to cut....we need to copy east Asia... manufacturer things for Walmart that your people don't need or can't afford...get out poverty...then start import substitution... manufacture things you need...as you can now afford.Stop manufacturing soap...focus on things people in develop..
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: gout on September 22, 2022, 07:05:55 PM
African markets are hopeless.
Quote
The United States has overtaken Uganda as the largest buyer of Kenyan goods, ending Kampala’s dominance as the top market for Kenya’s exports.

Official data show that exports to the US jumped 47 percent to Sh38.8 billion in the first half of the year on the back of increased sales of clothes.


Quote
Kenya exported Sh59.6 billion worth of goods to the US in 2021, of which more than 75 percent entered duty-free under AGOA -- chiefly apparel, macadamia nuts, coffee, tea and titanium ores -- according to the Congressional Research Service


https://www.businessdailyafrica.com/bd/markets/global-markets/us-overtakes-uganda-as-top-buyer-of-kenya-goods-3957256
Title: Re: Kenya is very broke
Post by: High Roller on September 22, 2022, 10:11:15 PM
Tourism and fishing are still our unpolished diamonds. These two industries have the most potential, yet underutilized. We should be one of the top tourist destinations in the World. As in other many areas, we keep punching below our weight. Tourism appears to have stagnated cozily in its comfort zone, while other countries have been taking off. For the last 10 years, we received an average of 2 million tourists annually. France the world’s most visited country attracts an average of 90 million tourists per year. Munich, Germany attracts almost 7 million tourists during the two weeks of Oktoberfest, world's largest beer festival. Even Singapore, a country with not so many beautiful natural sceneries or wildlife attracts more than 9 million tourists per year. Tourism is critical for our economy and should be earning the lion’s share of the foreign exchange if marketed well. Meanwhile, fish and aquaculture sector only contributed 5 % to the country's GDP partly due to illegal foreign commercial vessels. Perch found in Lake Victoria is one of the most popular fish in the world, and the second most consumed fish in Japan. Our country also lies within the richest tuna belt of the Southwest Indian Ocean, yet we do not seem to benefit from the bounty. The Ruto administration should tackle illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing in our territorial waters and start investing seriously in fisheries and aquaculture sector. Bluefin tuna cost about $9.99 per pound where I do my grocery shopping.

Norway, about half the size of Kenya, exported $13.7 billion worth of seafood to the global market last year.