Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Kichwa on January 15, 2017, 03:39:06 PM
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http://www.nation.co.ke/news/Senators-back-doctors-Uhuru-responsible-for-deaths/1056-3518088-f0k5ujz/index.html
This is ridiculous. I agree with these Senator's, the Doctor's strike should have been resolved by now. Of course the government must take the lion share of the blame but the opposition and Wanaichi should have focused all their political attention solely on this matter and this may have put this to rest. I do not believe government officials and the public are just going about their day as usual while sick are dying because they cannot see a doctor. There ought to be negotiation with doctors going on 24/7 until this matter is resolved. I do not understand why Ouru wants to run for a second term. He never seems to be interested in resolving any difficult problem. He did this during the teachers strike( can't pay, won't pay). He then threw his hands up and surrendered to corruption and now he meets with the doctors once then throws his hands up again. Ati-he tries to hire foreign doctors? Where do you find enough doctors willing to move from one country to another on such a short notice, and where would you find the kind of money that would make it worth their time and comfort to do so when you cannot even afford to pay your the measly wages paid to Kenyan doctors. Elections do have consequences but stolen elections can have very serious consequences.
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This is a classic Uhuru move. He is waiting for this problem to solve itself i.e doctors become broke due to no salary and voluntarily return to work.
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Health was devolved. This is the least of Uhuru problems. Counties should return health voluntary to national gov until they've the capacity to deal with this.
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If so why did Uhuru sign a CBA with doctors? Were they LYING to the doctors or setting up counties?
Why is Uhuru holding on to Health Funds (which btw he dishes out to family)?
Why did Uhuru negotiate and then force County governments to accept an "Equipment Leasing Deal"?
Jubilee propaganda is running short.
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I wish that was true. Why does MOH still have a bigger budget than the counties can allocate for health services? How come the national govt still busy tendering for immobile clinics?
Pundit, notice hardly anyone is blaming governors for the stalemate with the doctors. the national govt signed the agreement with the doctors and not the governors.
Health was devolved. This is the least of Uhuru problems. Counties should return health voluntary to national gov until they've the capacity to deal with this.
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Health is devolved except for National hospitals (2 - KNH & Moi refferal) and of course they are national health issues - mostly public health - including Jubilee funding free maternity for everyone.
Counties if they manage hospitals well should not need extra money. Hospital charge fees - AIA - each county can easily collect 500m-1B shs - enough to pay doctors - by charging wananchi 50 bob or getting money from NHIF when they treat serious ailment.
Facts are stubborn. Health is mostly devolved. Uhuru need to focus on Moi & KNH. Bomet doctors are not on strike - this is county function.
Way forward is to take it from counties and leave it to Uhuru.
I wish that was true. Why does MOH still have a bigger budget than the counties can allocate for health services? How come the national govt still busy tendering for immobile clinics?
Pundit, notice hardly anyone is blaming governors for the stalemate with the doctors. the national govt signed the agreement with the doctors and not the governors.
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Health was devolved. This is the least of Uhuru problems. Counties should return health voluntary to national gov until they've the capacity to deal with this.
The employment of doctors is not that "devolved". Who are the doctors negotiating with? Who's making the offers in a proposal for new CBA? Etc. You can answers here:
http://www.health.go.ke/
Note: that is not a county website
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So the immobile clinics were for referal hospitals? I am very surprised that out of your fanatism for Jubilee you seem to be losing your brain cells in the past few weeks.
Health as a centralised function never worked for 50 years and that is why Kenyans asked for devolved services. One thing I can assure you it will never go back to Nairobi. In fact more functions like local security and education should be devolved. Now Jubilee has turned the tables round for the people to forget that the few devoved functions was according to the constituition only the beginning. More functions were to follow.
Health is devolved except for National hospitals (2 - KNH & Moi refferal) and of course they are national health issues - mostly public health - including Jubilee funding free maternity for everyone.
Counties if they manage hospitals well should not need extra money. Hospital charge fees - AIA - each county can easily collect 500m-1B shs - enough to pay doctors - by charging wananchi 50 bob or getting money from NHIF when they treat serious ailment.
Facts are stubborn. Health is mostly devolved. Uhuru need to focus on Moi & KNH. Bomet doctors are not on strike - this is county function.
Way forward is to take it from counties and leave it to Uhuru.
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Childish nonsense. Constitution of kenya clearly devolved health. What remained is KNH & Moi refferal. The way forward is to either allow national gov to take back health or for each county to do their job.
The employment of doctors is not that "devolved". Who are the doctors negotiating with? Who's making the offers in a proposal for new CBA? Etc. You can answers here:
http://www.health.go.ke/
Note: that is not a county website
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unlike you I can change my mind based on facts as they are. If you ask doctors and nurses all over the country - they all want to go back to national gov. For them it the case of frying pan direct to fire. Bad situation that has worsen.
constitution allows both level of gov to exchange functions. If counties cannot handle doctors & nurses - they can give it back - and national gov - should also see what counties can do best.
Most kenyans will tell you health sectors has gone to dogs after devolution. Counties have done well with rural murram roads & water. Maybe national gov should give them more responsibilities like those...humdrum of running hospitals where you cannot parade patients as "development" is simply not exciting for our governors.
Take health back to gov bureaucracy. The rest is nonsense. Health is too important to be left to most of counties it would seem.
So the immobile clinics were for referal hospitals? I am very surprised that out of your fanatism for Jubilee you seem to be losing your brain cells in the past few weeks.
Health as a centralised function never worked for 50 years and that is why Kenyans asked for devolved services. One thing I can assure you it will never go back to Nairobi. In fact more functions like local security and education should be devolved. Now Jubilee has turned the tables round for the people to forget that the few devoved functions was according to the constituition only the beginning. More functions were to follow.
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You lost me somewhere. Which part is the "childish nonsense"? I simply provided a link to "who" is involved in the negotiations with and offers to doctors. It is not a matter of debate; anyone can get that information here at that website. See for example: "GOVERNMENT’S OFFER ON THE RETURN TO WORK FORMULA FOR DOCTORS".
The current dispute is over the implementation of the CBA for 2013-2017. According to the government itself, that agreement was between the Ministry of Health and the doctors' unions. You can find relevant information here: http://www.health.go.ke/?p=1759
If there is childish nonsense in any of the information provided by the Ministry of Health Kenya, I am certainly not its creator, and it is the people at the Ministry of Health who, apparently, need to be enlightened on what the consitituition says.
Childish nonsense. Constitution of kenya clearly devolved health. What remained is KNH & Moi refferal. The way forward is to either allow national gov to take back health or for each county to do their job.
The employment of doctors is not that "devolved". Who are the doctors negotiating with? Who's making the offers in a proposal for new CBA? Etc. You can answers here:
http://www.health.go.ke/
Note: that is not a county website
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Childish. Legacy issues. Health is devolved. Health is devolved. I think repetition is very good teaching aid when dealing with kids. Doctors are employed by dounties except those who work under KNH & Moi. GoK transferred their responsibilities and payroll to counties.
The drama by doctor's union is quite childish too. It neither here or there. They need to say if they want out of counties or not. Otherwise that national union have to enter CBA with 47 counties. One by one. Whatever national gov is trying to do (so it appears to care) is manifestly unconstitutional.
The outcome is obvious. Health will go to dogs. Doctors and Nurses can't work under counties. And that is where we come in as Kenyans find a way out - negotiate for some other function to be devolved and return health back to Nairobi. It too important to be left at whims of counties.
You lost me somewhere. Which part is the "childish nonsense"? I simply provided a link to "who" is involved in the negotiations with and offers to doctors. It is not a matter of debate; anyone can get that information here at that website. See for example: "GOVERNMENT’S OFFER ON THE RETURN TO WORK FORMULA FOR DOCTORS".
The current dispute is over the implementation of the CBA for 2013-2017. According to the government itself, that agreement was between the Ministry of Health and the doctors' unions. You can find relevant information here: http://www.health.go.ke/?p=1759
If there is childish nonsense in any of the information provided by the Ministry of Health Kenya, I am certainly not its creator.
Childish nonsense. Constitution of kenya clearly devolved health. What remained is KNH & Moi refferal. The way forward is to either allow national gov to take back health or for each county to do their job.
The employment of doctors is not that "devolved". Who are the doctors negotiating with? Who's making the offers in a proposal for new CBA? Etc. You can answers here:
http://www.health.go.ke/
Note: that is not a county website
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Childish. Legacy issues. Health is devolved. Health is devolved. I think repetition is very good teaching aid when dealing with kids. Doctors are employed by Counties except those who work under KNH & Moi. GoK transferred their responsibility and payroll to counties.
I see. In that case, let me point it out again:
* The current dispute is over the implementation of the CBA covering 2013--2017. According to the Ministry of Health itself, that agreement was signed between the Ministry of Health and the doctors' unions. (Also, looking at the dates, "legacy issues" is not the term I would use.) It might come as a surprise to you, but it doesn't but it doesn't matter even if everything is devolved down to the last bandage: a dispute brought by the doctors' unions can be against only the other signatories.
By the way, there is a different issue between where doctors are employed and how (and where) their salaries are set. My understanding is that the salary levels are national (for public-sector employment); both the government and the doctors' unions too seem to view it that way.
The drama by doctor union is quite childish too. It neither here or there. They need to say if they want out of counties or not. Otherwise that national union have to enter CBA with 47 counties. One by one. Whatever national gov is trying to do (so it appears to care) is manifestly unconstitutional.
That's an interesting angle. I might have missed it, but are the doctors' unions aware of and pushing on that angle too?
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CBA cannot supersede the constitution. Whatever gov signed previously become null and void after we passed new katiba. Constitution 101. Right now the doctors union need to enter CBA with each county gov after consultation with Sarah's Salaries commission (who in my view offers broad guidelines but gov nails the details). The rest is unhelpful noise.
The big question for me is how do we solve this once and for all - like we did to teacher strikers?
Are we happy with devolved health? I doubt.
Childish. Legacy issues. Health is devolved. Health is devolved. I think repetition is very good teaching aid when dealing with kids. Doctors are employed by Counties except those who work under KNH & Moi. GoK transferred their responsibility and payroll to counties.
I see. In that case, let me point it out again:
* The current dispute is over the implementation of the CBA covering 2013--2017. According to the Ministry of Health itself, that agreement was signed between the Ministry of Health and the doctors' unions. (Also, looking at the dates, "legacy issues" is not the term I would use.) It might come as a surprise to you, but it doesn't but it doesn't matter even if everything is devolved down to the last bandage: a dispute brought by the doctors' unions can be against only the other signatories.
By the way, there is a different issue between where doctors are employed and how (and where) their salaries are set. My understanding is that the salary levels are national (for public-sector employment); both the government and the doctors' unions too seem to view it that way.
The drama by doctor union is quite childish too. It neither here or there. They need to say if they want out of counties or not. Otherwise that national union have to enter CBA with 47 counties. One by one. Whatever national gov is trying to do (so it appears to care) is manifestly unconstitutional.
That's an interesting angle. I might have missed it, but are the doctors' unions aware of and pushing on that angle too?
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CBA cannot supersede the constitution. Whatever gov signed previously become null and void after we passed new katiba. Constitution 101.
When was the 2013--2017 CBA signed?
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If it was transitional arrangement then it been overtaken by events.
When was the 2013--2017 CBA signed?
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RV Pundit cannot find a way to support Ouru on this one and as usual he engages in a silly argument. The strike of doctors is now a matter of health, safety and security of the nation and even if one were to argue that the provision of health care was devolved as per the constitution, then Ouru as the president of Kenya needs to convene a meeting with the governors and find a solution to the matter because it is nationwide. Even if it were only one county having this problem, the president would still have a way to intervene once the situation rises to the level of a disaster. This happens all the time in majimbo governments all over the world. Ouru is such a failure. The man was never born to lead but was forced on to this nation by tribalism and stolen wealth.
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If it was transitional arrangement then it been overtaken by events.
When was the 2013--2017 CBA signed?
This is what I was responding to:
CBA cannot supersede the constitution. Whatever gov signed previously become null and void after we passed new katiba. Constitution 101.
But if I may ask: what events have done the "overtaking"?
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Tell that to the doctors :D :D :D
Anything signed by a cabinet minister or PS is valid. No silly excuses like "overtaken by events".
If it was transitional arrangement then it been overtaken by events.
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Health is devolved. The rest are nonsense. The elephant in the house is that doctors and nurse as well as hospitals and dispensaries are under counties.
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Explain to me in simple terms to mine and the general public satisfaction Why the Uhuru Regime negotiated and signed a Collective Bargaining Agreement with an entity that had nothing to do with it and I'll buy everything else you say after that.
Health is devolved. The rest are nonsense. The elephant in the house is that doctors and nurse as well as hospitals and dispensaries are under counties.
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Isaac Ruto can answer you in very simpler terms.
http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2016/12/09/cs-macharia-is-to-blame-because-he-signed-cba-with-doctors-without_c1470374
Seem you guys don't get. Whatever Macharia did by signing that CBA is NULL AND VOID. Health is devolved.Repeating that for umpteenth time. Macharia was under pressure to solve 2013 strike and lied to doctors - CBA is not worth the piece of paper it was written - it even had no SRC input. That is all this hulabaloo is about. The doctors need to sign CBA with their employers - county service boards - in all the 47 counties.
Explain to me in simple terms to mine and the general public satisfaction Why the Uhuru Regime negotiated and signed a Collective Bargaining Agreement with an entity that had nothing to do with it and I'll buy everything else you say after that.
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Pundit
What you are casually admitting is close to treason and exactly the stuff that we thought we were getting rid of when the new constitution came into being. The idea that your government would brazenly tell you a lie and that the person conducting the lie would be acting under instructions from the President is something I thought I would never see.
Will there be any consequences to him personally or he was simply a messenger of Uhuru and Ruto?
Of course there will be no action taken against Macharia or Uhuru. For now at least.
That said I recall your statement that since Counties are unable to handle health Uhuru should take it back.
One more question: In what context was Uhuru offering the doctors higher pay while knowing that he was NOT their employer? Had he spoken to and received backing for that offer from all the 47 counties?
Correction: SRC rubber stamped it and had no recorded objection to anything in it until recently.
Isaac Ruto can answer you in very simpler terms.
http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2016/12/09/cs-macharia-is-to-blame-because-he-signed-cba-with-doctors-without_c1470374
Seem you guys don't get. Whatever Macharia did by signing that CBA is NULL AND VOID. Health is devolved.Repeating that for umpteenth time. Macharia was under pressure to solve 2013 strike and lied to doctors - CBA is not worth the piece of paper it was written - it even had no SRC input. That is all this hulabaloo is about. The doctors need to sign CBA with their employers - county service boards - in all the 47 counties.
Explain to me in simple terms to mine and the general public satisfaction Why the Uhuru Regime negotiated and signed a Collective Bargaining Agreement with an entity that had nothing to do with it and I'll buy everything else you say after that.
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I am not sure about details but I assume at that time national gov was yet to transfer some functions. In 2013 Jubilee had just come in and most function were transfered late 2013 -2015 - gok was given max of 5yrs to transfer all functions. At one point - national gov - was processing payroll for doctors, nurses and others - until around 2015!
I think both parties lied to each other in good faith. Now we are in 2017. That deal is null and void now. Way forward - which is what I am interested with always - is for doctors to negotiate with each county - and if that is difficult - we need debate on way forward.
It obvious most doctors will not stick to counties and our hospitals will suffer. Counties need to step up. They can do this. And if they cannot - well - let them hand it back to national gok.
Pundit
What you are casually admitting is close to treason and exactly the stuff that we thought we were getting rid of when the new constitution came into being. The idea that your government would brazenly tell you a lie and that the person conducting the lie would be acting under instructions from the President is something I thought I would never see.
Will there be any consequences to him personally or he was simply a messenger of Uhuru and Ruto?
Of course there will be no action taken against Macharia or Uhuru. For now at least.
That said I recall your statement that since Counties are unable to handle health Uhuru should take it back.
One more question: In what context was Uhuru offering the doctors higher pay while knowing that he was NOT their employer? Had he spoken to and received backing for that offer from all the 47 counties?
Correction: SRC rubber stamped it and had no recorded objection to anything in it until recently.
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The functions were transferred after the 4th march elections. Jubilee refused to hand over some such as roads resulting in court cases. I think they have hang on to health functions illegally.
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Devolved or not? Mafya House or counties?